M-FM Fringe: Prime Universe

[M-FM Moogle]

-vote badass

[Unknown1234]

I'm just deciding right now if this is super defensive Sino right now. I'm worried that even if he is Town he'll be too focused pushing me (active town) regardless.

[M-FM Moogle]

-vote M-FM Badass

fixed the vote

And yeah, I honestly don't know sino that well and how he plays so if he's defensive as scum, that might be a point worth considering.

[Unknown1234]

Sino hasn't play a ton, but from the three games I played with him, he always gets pissed off when somebody starts to question him. Anti-town at most, especially because I go from top town to top scum and that his opinion on how I've acted has changed that much.

[M-FM Moogle]

Yikes, I sort of do that too. Not so much the questioning but if I'm getting pushed as scum, I tend to be OMGUS-y back regardless of alignment. Could be one of the things I am town reading sino for is just a null tell for him. Some people just don't like being accused.

[Unknown1234]

To answer the question, I don't have a good read on Moogle at all. But Sino:

-Has completely attacked me since I started questioning him.
-Has been extremely friendly with those who agree with him
-When a lynch on a inactive player seemed out of reach due to OrpZed's feedback, he decided to push people that everyone had already announced they were suspicious of (except me, in which it's a defensive attack on me)

Pro side- Town Sino likes to ask questions A LOT, and they aren't usually the most useful questions. Although, I havent really seen his scum play but I doubt it would be polished because he's never been scum before.

[M-FM Moogle]

Here's my view on defensiveness overall: While it can be done as scum, I find it to be more town-like. Mostly because scum know the person is right and are really self-aware and back down or don't question or if they do get defensive and question it, then they just discredit the argument without putting up a couterpoint or anything else.

[Sino]

To answer the question, I don't have a good read on Moogle at all. But Sino:

-Has completely attacked me since I started questioning him.
-Has been extremely friendly with those who agree with him
-When a lynch on a inactive player seemed out of reach due to OrpZed's feedback, he decided to push people that everyone had already announced they were suspicious of (except me, in which it's a defensive attack on me)

Pro side- Town Sino likes to ask questions A LOT, and they aren't usually the most useful questions. Although, I havent really seen his scum play but I doubt it would be polished because he's never been scum before.

I agree with your first point but :

-Has been extremely friendly with those who agree with him

You're the only one i can be described not being friendly with, what's that supposed to mean ?

-When a lynch on a inactive player seemed out of reach due to OrpZed's feedback, he decided to push people that everyone had already announced they were suspicious of (except me, in which it's a defensive attack on me)

I don't remember seeing everyone announcing they're suspicious of Town.

You're always trying to twist the reality into what suits you best, that's what's suspicious about you.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Yikes, I sort of do that too. Not so much the questioning but if I'm getting pushed as scum, I tend to be OMGUS-y back regardless of alignment. Could be one of the things I am town reading sino for is just a null tell for him. Some people just don't like being accused.

This post reads extremely forced to me. y u do this to me, I had good Town read on your before I woke up today.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Here's my view on defensiveness overall: While it can be done as scum, I find it to be more town-like. Mostly because scum know the person is right and are really self-aware and back down or don't question or if they do get defensive and question it, then they just discredit the argument without putting up a couterpoint or anything else.

Can you give your full read on Badass, please?

[Sino]

This post reads extremely forced to me. y u do this to me, I had good Town read on your before I woke up today.

Why does it read forced to you ? Does it look like to you Moogle is trying to just defend me ?

[M-FM Wildcard]

Why does it read forced to you ? Does it look like to you Moogle is trying to just defend me ?

I do see that, but he has stated that he had a town read on you. So, it isn't irrational that he would have a post defending you.

I'm just reading that and it reeks of insincerity. The style of typing does not match the rest of his posts, and really stands out to me. The post itself looks like he tried to word it in a specific way to achieve something, likely to appear Town since he talks about how he acts when he's scum & town.

[M-FM Wildcard]

And not related to that post, I don't see Moogle doing any scum hunting. Which is odd for someone who writes a paragraph or two in his posts.

Also, he had a pretty long defense when I simply stated that I did not like his non-game related interaction with Unknown. I mean, my statement was basically null, could've easily have been ignored. Instead, he wrote his longest post so far in reaction to it.

[Sino]

The post itself looks like he tried to word it in a specific way to achieve something, likely to appear Town since he talks about how he acts when he's scum & town.

That's a good point.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Y'know, it's rare when I get this completely 180 degree turn around for a player so quickly in a game, and I feel like I need to follow my gut on this situation. While I do think that Sino has been acting very suspiciously, he has shown evidence from early game to back up the things he is saying now. He's not hypocritical about his position in the game, which is one of the main things I look for in Mafia. He was just the only person I felt was scummy due to specific reactions.

Even Badass on my list was Town-Leaning.


Going to move my vote over here for the time being.

-vote M-FM Moogle

The active non-contributing, defensive, insincere, Sino-buddying player.

[Unknown1234]

I agree with your first point but :



You're the only one i can be described not being friendly with, what's that supposed to mean ?



I don't remember seeing everyone announcing they're suspicious of Town.

You're always trying to twist the reality into what suits you best, that's what's suspicious about you.

To the second point, I'm saying that you only seem to find the people agreeing with you to be town. Unless you have another reason why you flipped on me (which you admitted to) out of nowhere.

Town and On Time might still be getting mixed up. I'm not wrong about Badass though, I don't remember you saying anything about them until everyone else was.

[Sino]

Y'know, it's rare when I get this completely 180 degree turn around for a player so quickly in a game, and I feel like I need to follow my gut on this situation. While I do think that Sino has been acting very suspiciously, he has shown evidence from early game to back up the things he is saying now. He's not hypocritical about his position in the game, which is one of the main things I look for in Mafia. He was just the only person I felt was scummy due to specific reactions.

Even Badass on my list was Town-Leaning.


Going to move my vote over here for the time being.

-vote M-FM Moogle

The active non-contributing, defensive, insincere, Sino-buddying player.

Interesting, i look forward to see what the others have to say about this, as for myself, i don't see any particular reason for the scum to be buddying me, as it only draws unwanted attention.

[Unknown1234]

-vote M-FM On Time

[Unknown1234]

That's a good point.

This is the shit I meant when you buddy with people. WHY is it a good point?

[Unknown1234]

Unless Sino and Moogle are scum, I'm not following your narrative, WildCard.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Unless Sino and Moogle are scum, I'm not following your narrative, WildCard.

What, it has nothing to do with his relationship with Sino. Only thing I took from his relationship with Sino was that it could be possibly buddying.

[M-FM Wildcard]

-vote M-FM On Time

Can you offer your reads, please?
Placing your first vote on a non-poster seems like the easy way out.

[Sino]

To the second point, I'm saying that you only seem to find the people agreeing with you to be town. Unless you have another reason why you flipped on me (which you admitted to) out of nowhere.

Town and On Time might still be getting mixed up. I'm not wrong about Badass though, I don't remember you saying anything about them until everyone else was.

That's exactly what i mean with twisting the reality, i was the first one to question Badass about his post (17, 18 and 21).

Why do you keep making false statements Unknown ?

This is the shit I meant when you buddy with people. WHY is it a good point?

Because he's right about Moogle talking about his behavior as scum as if he wanted to imply he's town for not behaving in such a way.

[Unknown1234]

What, it has nothing to do with his relationship with Sino. Only thing I took from his relationship with Sino was that it could be possibly buddying.

Why would you buddy someone who had a high chance of lynch? (According to the popular opinion), opposed to just agreeing with everyone else and join on his lynch?

[Unknown1234]

That's exactly what i mean with twisting the reality, i was the first one to question Badass about his post (17, 18 and 21).

Why do you keep making false statements Unknown ?



Because he's right about Moogle talking about his behavior as scum as if he wanted to imply he's town for not behaving in such a way.

I was skeptical of Badass way before the split. Fact check before you falsely call me a liar.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Let me highlight another fact for you guys to follow:

What is the point of this post? It reeks of trying to fake a townslip. It's the first thing I've seen from you that makes me second guess my townread.

From this post, we can know that M-FM Moogle knows the strategy of faking townslips in games.

Then we cross that with these types of examples:

[url=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/38195-M-FM-Fringe-Day-1?p=645368&viewfull=1#post645368]Post 82, Pregame[/quote]

Agreed, it's not necessarily town but when I've played scum in complex setups before, I usually pay pretty close attention to details so I don't mess up. As town, I usually don't give a rip and jump right in with whatever I want to say.

Defends his stance by saying this is how he plays if he's Town, because if he was scum he'd play different. Not only is this trying to state that he is Town by using his own meta as a defense, but shows he is aware of how he is viewed playing in this game. It doesn't make sense to me that a Town member would be so highly aware about how they are perceived in a game.




And then there is this post:

Yikes, I sort of do that too. Not so much the questioning but if I'm getting pushed as scum, I tend to be OMGUS-y back regardless of alignment. Could be one of the things I am town reading sino for is just a null tell for him. Some people just don't like being accused.

Not only does this post reek of insincerity to me, he once again reiterates how he would act "if we were scum". Essentially using his meta once again to prove that he is Town.



And then the final post of:

Here's my view on defensiveness overall: While it can be done as scum, I find it to be more town-like. Mostly because scum know the person is right and are really self-aware and back down or don't question or if they do get defensive and question it, then they just discredit the argument without putting up a couterpoint or anything else.

He actually states my point that scum are self-aware, which is exactly how he is acting by saying these things. It's actually a good term to use, "self-aware", because that's why his post screams of insincerity to me. It's because it reads as if it was written by someone who is self-aware, as he states scum would be.
If you also combine this quote with the prior quote, it's basically:
"Yikes, I get defensive too. And while it can be done as scum, I find it to be more town-like"

Yet AGAIN trying to state he is Town. Yes, we get it, you understand "Townslips" and are trying to accomplish it.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Why would you buddy someone who had a high chance of lynch? (According to the popular opinion), opposed to just agreeing with everyone else and join on his lynch?

Because when you buddy someone and they flip Town, you appeared to have been on the same wavelength of someone who is Town? That's the point of buddying/bussing, is to look a specific way after role flips.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Why would you buddy someone who had a high chance of lynch? (According to the popular opinion), opposed to just agreeing with everyone else and join on his lynch?

Also, to address the second question..

Why would you want to be viewed as a Sheep instead of being related to a Town member and being thought of as a Free Thinker?

[Sino]

Because when you buddy someone and they flip Town, you appeared to have been on the same wavelength of someone who is Town? That's the point of buddying/bussing, is to look a specific way after role flips.

This implies i'm town.

[M-FM Wildcard]

This implies i'm town.

No, it implies that M-FM Moogle thinks you're Town.
For all I know, you two are Mafia & William Bell and don't realize.

[M-FM Moogle]

Wildcard-You clearly don't understand what a townslip is yourself. A townslip is just that. A slip. Like a friend of mine forgot how many scum were in an open set up we played and the way she posted it made it clear she didn't know. As scum, there's no way she wouldn't know so it was an obvious townslip. When unknown said they weren't aware scum had daychat, it looked like the same thing but I questioned it because it looked forced to me.

At least get your terms straight before you start quoting out of context and twisting my words to say I'm doing something I am not.

As to your other pont, talking about how I play as EITHER alignment is pretty common for me. I said "being pushed as scum" not that I was scum in these instances. I could be either scum or town and behave the same way if I was being pushed as scum. I specifically was saying I am defensive as both alignments and can understand why that was being scumread but I didn't find it scummy. Null at worst. I have no idea how on earth that could be read as anything other that me explaining my townread better.

And yes, I do defend my townreads and I discuss them with other players. It helps me solidify my read better and figure out if the other persons read is genuine or not.

Now, I have to leave but will be back in about an hour to address anything else you want to question me on.

[M-FM Moogle]

Can you give your full read on Badass, please?

I already have, in several posts including my most recent one. You should probably go read them again. I think he's scum for being awkward, not posting much, and being uncooperative. He also isn't really addressing points or answering questions well.

[M-FM Moogle]

No, it implies that M-FM Moogle thinks you're Town.
For all I know, you two are Mafia & William Bell and don't realize.

This post is exactly what you are accusing me of doing. Trying to show that you are town.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Wildcard-You clearly don't understand what a townslip is yourself. A townslip is just that. A slip. Like a friend of mine forgot how many scum were in an open set up we played and the way she posted it made it clear she didn't know. As scum, there's no way she wouldn't know so it was an obvious townslip. When unknown said they weren't aware scum had daychat, it looked like the same thing but I questioned it because it looked forced to me.

I'm just going to respond to this part currently, cause I'm working.
But, wow.
You specifically say that Unknown making that forced post, which technically isn't a "slip", a "townslip". I am using your own semantics to communicate with you. Call it whatever you want, but the point still stands that you are stating things to try to appear Town, and you're the only person who is a repeat offender of this.

[M-FM Wildcard]

I already have, in several posts including my most recent one. You should probably go read them again. I think he's scum for being awkward, not posting much, and being uncooperative. He also isn't really addressing points or answering questions well.

You posted one line, gr8 job.

[M-FM Wildcard]

This post is exactly what you are accusing me of doing. Trying to show that you are town.

LOL please explain how? I really love how defensive you're getting.
I never once stated in that entire sentence that I am Town, and never even referred to myself in the situation.

If you're stating that I'm saying I'm Town because I stated that you two could possibly be 1 Mafia + William Bell, then you're grasping at straws. I'm just stating that two players can both be scum and not aligned to each other. Do you get the point now? It was quite a simple one.

[M-FM Moogle]

Is there some reason you are suddenly becoming so antagonistic? No I posted more than one line explaining my reads.

Don't appreciate you twisting my words around and saying I'm doing things I'm not.

Anyway, I gotta go for a bit.

[M-FM Wildcard]

You know what, I will just respond to this now:

Wildcard-You clearly don't understand what a townslip is yourself. A townslip is just that. A slip. Like a friend of mine forgot how many scum were in an open set up we played and the way she posted it made it clear she didn't know. As scum, there's no way she wouldn't know so it was an obvious townslip. When unknown said they weren't aware scum had daychat, it looked like the same thing but I questioned it because it looked forced to me.

At least get your terms straight before you start quoting out of context and twisting my words to say I'm doing something I am not.

As to your other pont, talking about how I play as EITHER alignment is pretty common for me. I said "being pushed as scum" not that I was scum in these instances. I could be either scum or town and behave the same way if I was being pushed as scum. I specifically was saying I am defensive as both alignments and can understand why that was being scumread but I didn't find it scummy. Null at worst. I have no idea how on earth that could be read as anything other that me explaining my townread better.

And yes, I do defend my townreads and I discuss them with other players. It helps me solidify my read better and figure out if the other persons read is genuine or not.

Now, I have to leave but will be back in about an hour to address anything else you want to question me on.

"Wow, you clearly don't know what a Town Slip is.. A Town slip has to be done by accident. It doesn't matter that I stated Unknown made a forced comment that I called a Town Slip. Even if you're using it the same way I used it, you are using it wrong and your post doesn't matter."
How about you respond to my argument instead of attack my semantics and my argument (which is the same semantics you used), which is a logical fallacy. AKA you have no defense so you resort to fallacies, it's a sad pit that scum easily fall into.

You used the term first. So, maybe YOU should get your terms right.

Dude, are you kidding me? I accuse you of using Meta to prove yourself as Town. And what do you do in return? You once again use meta to say this is common for you. I don't give a shit about your meta, or what you usually do, or what you've done before. All that matters is what you're doing in this game, and it's trying to prove yourself as Town reasons that could be completely fabricated. While I do see a point of miscommunication was made in that paragraph, it doesn't negate the rest of the argument. You still are guilty of what I'm accusing you of.

What does that have to do with anything I said?

[M-FM Wildcard]

Is there some reason you are suddenly becoming so antagonistic? No I posted more than one line explaining my reads.

Don't appreciate you twisting my words around and saying I'm doing things I'm not.

Anyway, I gotta go for a bit.

I'm becoming Hostile because your reaction to my pressure is:
1) You post where you respond to my accusation on you is full of hostility; I am solely returning the hostility.
2) You attack my semantics, which are semantics you used (congratulations, you're a hypocrite. If you look back, I say that hypocrisy is the main thing I look for while scum hunting).
3) You only have a defense to one part of my insinuation, and you feel like that is enough to ignore the rest of my post. It's not.

Bonus:
4) You accuse me of twisting your words, but please show which words I twisted? If anything, you are attempting to twist my words for accusing me of using "townslip" wrong when I used it the same way you used it.

[M-FM Wildcard]

If someone would be willing to offer their insight to Me vs Moogle, it'd be appreciated.
Or if someone wants to reiterate the points one side of the other is making, so that we can get on the same page or clear up and misinformation.


Personally, I'd appreciate the support votes on Moogle in hopes we can get at least a role claim today.

[M-FM Moogle]

I think you are being a dick and word twisting and your entire demeanor has changed when you smell a good mislynch opportunity. I've see scum do this many, many times so now we find out your alignment as well.

Unless you have a specific question for me I haven't answered, I'm not getting into a semantic battle or a battle over what is or isn't hypocrisy or putting up with your word twisting either. And nope, I won't get into tunnel shit either so you can push my mislynch even harder for your own gain. You just revealed yourself as scum. Good job.

If you are so confident I am scum, let's 1v1-you go or I go today. Let's go!!

[M-FM Wildcard]

[M-FM Moogle]

-vote F-M Wildcard

Sorry, screwed up the vote.

[M-FM Wildcard]

-vote F-M Wildcard

Sorry, screwed up the vote.

Still screwed it up

[M-FM Moogle]

Well, let's see if this works then.

-vote M-FM Wildcard

[Unknown1234]

Sorry, I'm at school a lot of the day so I can't post large posts much. Will be done soon.

[Unknown1234]

Moogle, you called Wildcard for changing his behaviour when he accuse you, however when Sino did it to make you gave him Town cred.

[Unknown1234]

Fuck grammar. Sino got town points because he "related to you" but now that someone is doing it to you it's a negative thing.

[M-FM Wildcard]

I think you are being a dick and word twisting and your entire demeanor has changed when you smell a good mislynch opportunity. I've see scum do this many, many times so now we find out your alignment as well.

Unless you have a specific question for me I haven't answered, I'm not getting into a semantic battle or a battle over what is or isn't hypocrisy or putting up with your word twisting either. And nope, I won't get into tunnel shit either so you can push my mislynch even harder for your own gain. You just revealed yourself as scum. Good job.

If you are so confident I am scum, let's 1v1-you go or I go today. Let's go!!

[M-FM Wildcard]

Dude, I am not twisting your words, and I'm not trying to be a dick. If you think I am a dick for pressuring you and attacking your Strawman fallacy, then that is on you. But let me just explain some stuff to you:

My entire demeanor has not changed at all. Look at how I reacted in pre-game to Unknown when we interacted, it is kind of similar to now. Furthermore, you did attack me first by attempting to insult my intelligence (using "townslip" wrong) to negate my entire argument. I did not appreciate that, so obviously I would react with some hostility.

You haven't address half my post, so my question could be "Why not?". I'd appreciate if you go back and actually address the points I am making instead of just saying I am twisting words and am scum, while refusing to actually make a point against anything I am saying.

It's also sad that you state you "won't get into tunnel shit", yet then immediately after state it has to be 1v1, one of us being lynch. That is absolutely tunneling, and you are once against proving you're a hypocrite.

I also did not reveal myself as scum, because I am a Town Power Role. Therefore, I cannot actually reveal myself to be something I am not.


If you think I am scummy solely for pressuring you on day one, then I think you need to reevaluate your whole stance. This OMGUS is completely unfounded. However, if you go back through my posts and point out specific scummy things I have said and done, then maybe I will honor those with responses. However, it is impossible for me to defend myself and further prove myself as Town when all you do is attack my argument instead of defending against the points I am making with your own logical arguments.

[M-FM Wildcard]

Moogle, you called Wildcard for changing his behaviour when he accuse you, however when Sino did it to make you gave him Town cred.

You can also see his behavior also completely changed. He goes from "lala I love being playful" to "OMG 1V1 ME RIGHT NOW"

[Sino]

One good point Wildcard has raised is : why are you using meta Moogle ? it doesn't make any sense for someone on an anon account to do it, you could tell us anything you want about you, we couldn't possibly know if it's true or not.

Wildcard, what do you think about me saying Unknown is twisting the truth ?

And Unknown, if you're going to tell me you pushed on Badass before the split, give me a post number.