S-FM 210: Give or Take

[secondpassing]

To MiniZed. Would you kindly go back to the question I asked you about analyzing the people on a train and answer it? Thanks in advance.

[MiniZed]

To MiniZed. Would you kindly go back to the question I asked you about analyzing the people on a train and answer it? Thanks in advance.

I don't remember what question you are referring to.

[secondpassing]

I don't see this from a town perspective so no I'm not following you. It either

1.) tries to construct himself into a "conf town" bloc or

2.) potentially buddies with someone who may not be town.

1) we established that was true

2) he town reads DB. And if we believe he town reads DB. This is not a valid point.

I was speaking more of why he would ignore that contradiction. Among other things, I doubt that scum would be so unaware of that contradiction that involves himself.

The fact he ignored it is a town tell to me.

[Mesk514]

Don't you have anything constructive to add?

nope. just my presence in this game is constructive enough!

[MiniZed]

1) we established that was true

2) he town reads DB. And if we believe he town reads DB. This is not a valid point.

I was speaking more of why he would ignore that contradiction. Among other things, I doubt that scum would be so unaware of that contradiction that involves himself.

The fact he ignored it is a town tell to me.

1.) If you are scum, this would be something that would be beneficial to you.

2.) Why would you put 100% faith into someone? That seems beyond ridiculous, it was like me with McCree in OW if you remember that correctly. Makes me believe he is trying to get Darkness off of him.

I don't think I'm following what you're saying here.

[MiniZed]

Secondpassing I still don't know what question you are referring to.

[secondpassing]

1.) If you are scum, this would be something that would be beneficial to you.

2.) Why would you put 100% faith into someone? That seems beyond ridiculous, it was like me with McCree in OW if you remember that correctly. Makes me believe he is trying to get Darkness off of him.

I don't think I'm following what you're saying here.

1) And if he is town, he views himself as confirmed town. + He seems to like townblocks. = He would want to be in one.

Yes, you're right, if he was scum hed want to do that.

2) from what I hear, his town read on DarknessB is very strong. Probably as close as 100% we will get at this point in the game. I wasn't in M-FM Overwatch, so I don't follow.

[secondpassing]

Back towards talking to MiniZed:

I picked out this chunk of the vote count because it houses some of the least-agreeable-to-me votes:
MattZed (3 [L-4]):
Eggy, yzb25, Mesk514
Mesk514 (1 [L-6]):
GameFreak

What did you think of them?

Here was my question.

[DarknessB]

1) And if he is town, he views himself as confirmed town. + He seems to like townblocks. = He would want to be in one.

Yes, you're right, if he was scum hed want to do that.

2) from what I hear, his town read on DarknessB is very strong. Probably as close as 100% we will get at this point in the game. I wasn't in M-FM Overwatch, so I don't follow.

I think you're both massively overreading this. You don't ask the person scumreading you to join a Town bloc with you -- that makes no sense whatsoever. Town blocs are much maligned and for good reason -- you need all the participants to Townread each other, which is rare and risky in case you allow a scum in who can influence the lynches in the wrong direction.

I'm guessing this is a combination of NU trolling rather than participating and trying to get me off his back with flattery or whatever it be. It's not going to work and I generally find artificial (i.e. discussed) Town blocs to be a terrible idea. If players start Townreading each other and decide to vote together fine, but this isn't Survivor and I'm not grouping with someone merely because they ask or because they Townread me.

At best, NU is trolling; at worst, he's trying to waive a white flag and get me off his case. Neither is good.

[Unknown1234]

1) And if he is town, he views himself as confirmed town. + He seems to like townblocks. = He would want to be in one.

Yes, you're right, if he was scum hed want to do that.

2) from what I hear, his town read on DarknessB is very strong. Probably as close as 100% we will get at this point in the game. I wasn't in M-FM Overwatch, so I don't follow.

1.) This is more opinionated. Either Town or scum could do it. I don't get the contradiction thing you mentioned though.

McCree from OW followed me the entire game (Hanzo) when I was scum. He wouldn't consider the chance that I was scum no matter what happened. Even came down to the final 5 and he was not willing to vote me no matter what. I don't know why you would ever want such a strong town read as it has never worked out well. There's a few other examples but most people wouldn't be familiar.

It's sketchy for me if you have a read you aren't willing to overlook because if they are scum you almost confirm an ally for them. 4th Mafia, pretty much.

[MiniZed]

1.) This is more opinionated. Either Town or scum could do it. I don't get the contradiction thing you mentioned though.

McCree from OW followed me the entire game (Hanzo) when I was scum. He wouldn't consider the chance that I was scum no matter what happened. Even came down to the final 5 and he was not willing to vote me no matter what. I don't know why you would ever want such a strong town read as it has never worked out well. There's a few other examples but most people wouldn't be familiar.

It's sketchy for me if you have a read you aren't willing to overlook because if they are scum you almost confirm an ally for them. 4th Mafia, pretty much.

The fails are real.

[DarknessB]

1.) This is more opinionated. Either Town or scum could do it. I don't get the contradiction thing you mentioned though.

McCree from OW followed me the entire game (Hanzo) when I was scum. He wouldn't consider the chance that I was scum no matter what happened. Even came down to the final 5 and he was not willing to vote me no matter what. I don't know why you would ever want such a strong town read as it has never worked out well. There's a few other examples but most people wouldn't be familiar.

It's sketchy for me if you have a read you aren't willing to overlook because if they are scum you almost confirm an ally for them. 4th Mafia, pretty much.

Yes, blind and unrelenting Town reads are stupid -- this is well established.

[MiniZed]

Here was my question.

I'll get back to this in 15 minutes when I'm at my computer. I want to review it and read over because I don't quite remember all of it.

[Titus]

If I challenged you to unban Duck, would you accept this noble challenge?

Why so hostile? I was challenging Darkness to be townier and productive with their vote. You're trying to dismiss this by implying that Darkness will do whatever I suggest. Yet, that's not the case. (They are not voting second passing.)

No one slipped this game. I've had no coal to start the train going. Gimme a hand, would you? I'd gladly tunnel anyone this game for the sake of tunneling and living to my town meta.

Also, you forget that town!NU says that he is town -- I am 100% town.

Scum!NU doesn't troll. I soft trolled this game.

Self-meta is even more garbage than meta.


Truth be told, I wasn't satisfied with his responses. The discussion was going nowhere though, and I had some more important stuff to do IRL. I just wanted to get rid of the annoyance that arguing with Unknown is.
"I.e. people not hating him when he'll need votes for later." I'm not that kind of guy, you know it. I'm confrontational in my posts when I can, people'll hate me for it. Good for them.




u trollin me or wat

You said that my reasoning behind my votes was lacking postgame in Blind Faith Nightless. That's a contradiction.



kek, I explained it. But I agree that it seemed timid the way I presented it.



Damn, sucks not being an attention whore when you have the spotlight on yourself, eh?



I never did VCA. I don't even know how to copy-paste the votes from the vote count.



Bruh.

Deflection thy name is NU.

Responses in purple.

[Titus]

Meaning?

Dang, the train on Titus is shit. 2 votes from RVS, 1 pressure vote and my good vote.

Still better than the train on me -- 1 vote from a clown because he was ASKED to vote.

Deflection more. Trying to say it's ok that a shit wagon exists.

[Titus]

This was my read on you. I guess I was wrong when I said that I was town reading everyone, I should have said I was slightly town reading most people, strong town reading a few people- er one person, and scum reading 1.5 players (let's not talk about Char Char).

There was no 180 on you. You were null.




Your posts are not invisible, they are simply shorter than some other people who like to write essays. If you write an essay, people will think: "Hey look they posted!" Whether or not they read it is a different matter. Why would scum want to lynch you that badly?

I see nothing wrong with policy lynch talking early in the day, especially by yzb25 right now, since they are commenting on other things. So I do not feel like he is using "lets push for a policy lynch" in order to cover up discussing anything else.

Maybe it's simply a SITE META difference. Over here, some players (myself included) expect others to comment on things that were not directly addressed to them.

I sense heavy emotion here that I am going to try to ignore.

You specifically used the words "give a pass" and now you're claiming that I'm null. I don't think so.

You want to ignore the bleeding town emotion because it doesn't match your narrative.

[Titus]

Scum-reading someone =/= throwing shade. I nitpicked stuff in Titus and your behavior I found scummy, that's not throwing shade, kek. Also, where the fuck did I throw shade on DB?

I refuted all of DB's refutable points that were made against me. Titus and you don't have a case on me for me to refute anything.

Avoiding interactions with others! xD
I'm the one who's had the most interactions with other players in here -- Eggy, Titus, DB, you, yzb, SP and to some extent MZ and Mesk. Good point you made there, fam. It's clear that you stuck with your habit of not reading posts.



No one wants to sit and answer a post full of questions that aren't all relevant. If you think your questions deserve being responded to, be more direct and emphasize your line of thought.



Yes, I did. I didn't get the feel that you were scum from this interaction, there's no point in me continuing this discussion that was going nowhere especially not when you were the interlocutor.

"ermahgerd your is frowing shayde on eggee ermahgerd"

Whaaa need to refute a case. You're going to doubtcast everyone (not relevant - town determines what is relevant, not you) while asking for a case to refute so you don't have to scumhunt. Deflection has been your MO so far and it was when scum too.

[Titus]

I'm done random voting. Not going to crucify Titus over a weak sense of host meta.

Main thing pinging my attention since I was last on is Eggy's justification for voting me. He spends an entire post giving reads on current people based largely on meta, but when it gets to me, he thinks I'm "probable scum" despite my play not matching what he considers my scum meta. Eggy just so happens to have a gut scumread on one of the larger trains that goes against his meta reasoning? That's just too convenient, and I don't buy it.

-vote Eggy

Also not a fan of how he's fine lynching me or Titus, but holds BC as a scumread vs a null read on Titus.

Which post is this? I think I need to reread this. It must have passed my attention.

[Titus]

DarknessB: Let's discuss this meta read.
secondpassing: No. Well.. okay fine.

First off, this entire argument(?) debate(?) is based off of pure meta.

White portion is what basically amounts to a gut read. I can discuss this. I get an entirely different feeling when reading your back-and-forth. It sounds more like.
"You sound scummy NU," said DarknessB.
"I don't think I am," said NU.
"You're not doing things I think you would have been doing," said DarknessB.
"I don't give a crap," replied NU.

Sure, I still question why Never Unlucky is acting the way he does, but not in the sense that he is trying to mislead me or hide.
Discussed.

Really? NU has been deflecting and thowing shade like the shadows will go out of business.

[Titus]

I've relooked into GameFreak. (I probably shouldn't, but I couldn't help it.) And these two opening posts give me worry.
Notice how GameFreak votes first and then attempts to explain it? Second part has a very odd choice of words, like he's hoping that Mesk is mafia/hopes other people won't question the read he made after his RVS?

Will need context to explain this occurrence, that means I need either GameFreak to come back and do more than RVS and make more comments, or I need to give this player a pass for not posting + being hard to read.

Why are you willing to give lurkers a pass but not wanting to lynch those pushing for policy lynches?

[Titus]

I find myself saying, "Uh huh, agree" to most of what MattZed has to say. Nowhere do I see you express that you change your read on Titus.
Questions: What makes it that you need to give Eggy priority in voting him? Wouldn't you like to continue the Titus pressure in hopes of extracting more information?

::


I disagree with the slight scumlean on yzb25 now, after a reread. Logically I agree with all the points in the ISO, but maybe since I put higher emphasis that players attempting the most correct strategy are pro-town and correlated to being town, I give yzb25 a town lean.

Is this "I agree with everything but the conclusions"?

[Titus]

Pretty obvtown, huh? She's proposed that we do not lynch from the experienced players pool and she OMGUSed me for voting you. Tis all she's done. Her protection of you hasn't gone unnoticed and I wonder what makes her act this way.


Again with the minimialization of BC's contributions and obvtown status.

ayyy



Yes, DB is my strongest town read. Very different from his non-confrontational and strategically lurking scum self in BN.

DB is a townread for being "confrontational", but you were just whining about their vote on you being bad because they were "ASKED"?

I liked MZ's analysis in his last ISO as well. It was pretty complete.

My points on MiniZee stand. He, like you, doesn't look like he's scum-hunting in his posts and he is going with the consensus of the thread meaning he is scum-reading me. He asks more questions than he answers them, but DB says this is NAI.

Way to differentiate them -- MattZed's posts show logic, MiniZed's showcase emotion.



Yeah, I don't like this post. You're not explaining your statement, so it looks like you're pulling a SP here by 'not liking' whoever votes you.

Dismisses scumreads because the scum are voting for me. Discrediting tactic. I've detailed why. If he had questions and was scumhunting, he'd be asking.

Responses in purple.

[Titus]

Hello friends , we've entered D2(irl) so i finally get some posts to work with.

Initial impressions so far is a townlean from DB. DB is showing his classic town behaviour and i enjoy reading his posts.
They follow a nice logic chain that i agree with (especially the posts about NU who is indeed playing very odd)

Mattzed is a weird one , its been so long that i've played a game with him but he was always somebody i was fearful of.
But this game i don't see the aggresive MZ i remember at all. Still he doesn't strike me as scum.
I like his small posts because they spark a discussion that we can use N1 to get better reads.

Onto the scummy ones.

NU is pinging me , for the reasons DB stated but also a certain sentence caught my eye. The good ol "i'm waiting for a slip to do something" Now unfortunate for you
Paladin is not in this game , so you'll be doing nothing for entire game. I don't believe in slips , except yours in Politico but it was your first game.
You have to understand most players in this game are veterans and slipping is an exception.

Toad is also pinging me alot. I will say this read is 95% meta, but every town game she plays she will hunt scum down. This game she is playing a passive observer,
which always happens when she is scum. I recall Flashpoint where she did the same. It could be her break making her a little soft, but this is not the town toad i know.

Eggy, Eh i'm so confused with this one, i just read him stating 3 times that he wasn't defending himself. And i'm pretty sure my last post was pointing out the fact that all he did was defend himself.
Its almost flailing scum. He also said he wasn't giving Mesk a free pass anymore which i like and said she wasn't playing her townstyle but he didn't pressure this much more which i dislike.

Titus, i really want to see some participation, most posts are so null that they are useless. The only thing bugging me is that she must know she is not participating in town discussion but doesn't care while i would expect a scum to atleast try to seem useful.

The rest.

Minized, i don't recall most posts probably why my opinion doesnt sway either way, i do like the fact that you are asking questions and i see i got mentioned and
after this post i'll answer those. I can't get a metaread on you because all i remember is that Insanity game which gives me nothing.

Char Char is giving me the smurf on a shit email vibe that never gets checked and doesn't know a game is active so pls Calix replace.

Yzb and SP i want to make another post on because honestly i cannot for the life of me keep these 2 apart.
When i read their posts i can never follow their logic or i just find them so bloated with useless information it pains me to read through them.
One of them was giving mafia 101 classes and that felt like a scum trying to be useful. Also the Pressure vote on eggy situation was just terrible (i hope it wasnt the same person)

Mesk, again i can't recall the posts but i did find it interesting Eggy of all the people was saying she'd consider her for a policy lynch. I'd like more votes on her but there are more scummy people right now.

IF i forgot somebody i'll add later

-vote Never Unlucky

I agree with DB on this vote and as i said i don't buy into the whole "i havnt seen anything worth pursueing yet"

@Toad, Which user is this? BC?

[Titus]

tl;dr I agree with DB. I sheep DB.

lmao, dude... DB's read is 90% based on meta. You don't know my town meta, yet you agree with him? Senseless.

And is it bad that you are acting exactly the way you described Titus, who is one your scum-reads, 's behavior?

Again, more baseless shading. Just reading through these last few pages GF and I aren't playing anything alike. He's basically just trying to scare GF off his wagon and not trying to hide it.

[Titus]

^^

I take it you think really highly of your ability to obvtown yourself regardless of your alignment correct?

[Titus]

This is somewhat convincing to me on a purely meta level, since Calix and I had to beg Mesk to Townclaim in BFN as well, and that only happened after everyone noticed that she had not Townclaimed and called her out for it. Does not mean we should give the slot a pass though.

I agree with this, and it's why I hate meta and self-meta. Any meta a user is aware of can change.

[Titus]

You were surprised that Mesk roleclaimed on Day 1? Dude, Mesk roleclaims Day 1 in most of her games, either through breadcrumbs (e.g. references to being Old --> Elder, references to Fans --> Normal Fan / Citizen in Gyrlander's game, etc.) or overtly -- literally, that is the defining element of her meta. I really just don't understand half of the points that you make in FM, SP. Also, the wording means very little given the question is highly loaded. As in, when you overtly ask someone whether they're scum, they're going to be concerned whether a wrong response --> a scumread from you. Seriously man, I just don't understand how you scumhunt if you're in fact Town -- it's like a foreign language to me...

Damn, dude crumbs like me. I would have loved to see it.

[Titus]

Without using meta then, where do you think you would put Mesk including the RL reasoning?

What makes you think he is similar to scum!NU? I am curious as to what you compare him to in the last game. I don't remember him well as I replaced in but I know in POLITICO he didn't have much confidence and usually tried to follow a leader of some sort (Calix).

Is NU your top vote currently? If not, why not try to lead a lynch on someone who is your top pick?

Slightly, but the question was more that I wasn't excluding opinions on me as it still creates discussion and possibly where holes in logic are found.

Hes posted quite a few times. More recently he did his ISO on you as scum. Perhaps check it out?

I agree with this, but for different reasons. Unless somehow all 3 scum are in the pool that she selected, I don't see any reason for scum to say "don't lynch in the experience pool" seems something too open and up front.

Thoughts on MattZed and yzb25? MattZed seems to be quite a bit more productive then he is as scum.

yzb25 on the other hand promised to do ISO's but has failed to show up for a bit. Still waiting on that.

1) I'm at Mesk as a null, which I know probably isn't a popular answer, but I like to interact with people before I give them a read. I haven't had any talks with Mesk. Gut says lean town, so gun to my head town read. No interest in lynching today. The claim thing is weird but this site is weird in claims.

2) NU is very much following the leader and looking for ways to discredit, escape, shade and deflect. In Spies, he at first tried to argue I was faking once the red check became know. Then, he tried to argue that I was scum because I never softed. I proved that wrong. He then went to claiming Friendly Neighbor and that my result was fucked with. Then he went to just full out scum. You can literally see him sheep and look for whatever sticks. Here, he attacked Darkness before he townread her. He has thrown crap at me and you. He's tried to intimidate GameFreak. He's basically trying to deter votes and create counters than scumhunting or solving anyone.

3) Currently NU is. I'm voting SP though. I'll be finishing my readthrough before moving my vote if I do. I tried to lead a lynch on SP. People don't see his 180 on me. Not much I can do if the rest of the town is blind.

4) I like MattZed at the moment, separate from meta. I like the effort and straightforward no nonsense scumhunting. Agreed on not liking the failure to promise and not deliver.

[Titus]

She usually soft-claims her role day one most games/all games(?) and I usually don't pick up on it because I don't notice those things. I don't remember her ever hard-claiming day one, so this is surprising.

I don't understand. Why shouldn't all my questions be loaded? That's what I'm doing: evaluating whether or not people are lying to me. I'm usually looking for the " hi I'm scum, I'm trying to hide it but I can't because there is a certain mindset that goes along with being being the trash." I thought this was pretty standard.

Interesting. What mindset do you think comes from being "trash"? On MS, it's documented I prefer scum to town.

[Titus]

You're honestly telling me that the most pointed investigative type question you could ask Mesk was whether she rolled scum this game?



It doesn't exactly take a WIFOM Master to get around that one. "No, I'm Town" or some variant thereof (like a roleclaim) is literally the only acceptable answer. If Mesk were scum and claimed scum, that would be game-throwing so I'm not sure what you expected to hear.

Also, given you literally asked her if she was scum, of course she's going to be on guard with that question. Anyone would be. A loaded question at least should require the person to think or maybe be caught off-guard. There's no catching anyone off guard with that blunt of a question so it's either a waste of time or something more suspicious like rolefishing / TPR hunting.

Now I want to claim scum just to see what SP would do with it.

[Titus]

At this point, I'd rather focus elsewhere, as I am mostly inclined to believe her claim. I think you saying that I said it was the most pointed investigative question I had to Mesk is a bit of a misrepresentation. At the time, it was all I cared to do. It you wish to ask her more questions to ahead as you said you didn't want to give her a free pass.

As I said, I expected to hear "I am town". Any variant thereof OR even using the standard reply coupled with other posts should be AI enough to be readable.

I don't need to catch people off-guard, well maybe I should- I'll take that into future consideration, I think I can catch people whilst they're on guard. As for rolefishing-- I'm not sure I know how to do that.

Dude, you've played for a year and you claim you don't know how to rolefish...

[Titus]

I have nothing to do with this, I just joined, and IDK how to start a post or start playing the game. Can you tell me? Sorry

Confirmed True Neutral.

[Titus]

1) we established that was true

2) he town reads DB. And if we believe he town reads DB. This is not a valid point.

I was speaking more of why he would ignore that contradiction. Among other things, I doubt that scum would be so unaware of that contradiction that involves himself.

The fact he ignored it is a town tell to me.

Yeah, his "townread" on DB is all sorts of sketch given the amount of shade he threw their way.
NU can absolutely fuck up.

There's a bus vote available. No judgment.

[Titus]

The fails are real.

Oh that's interesting... I didn't realize you were Unknown.

[Titus]

Ok, I'm caught up.

-vote Never Unlucky

MiniZed, are you still scumreading me or is your vote stale?

[MiniZed]

I picked out this chunk of the vote count because it houses some of the least-agreeable-to-me votes:
MattZed (3 [L-4]):
Eggy, yzb25, Mesk514
Mesk514 (1 [L-6]):
GameFreak

What did you think of them?

I wanted to organize all of my thoughts in one post so I waited to be at my computer.

Mesk's vote:

so uh yeah, that's that.


I think I'd like to place my vote on MattZed.
His tone and play seems like an Artificial Intelligence II play which was basically indulging in my meta because no one else would.

-vote MattZed

This is all she said about her vote on MattZed. The lack of explanation of why his play seems like Artificial Intelligence is odd. I don't see this backed up with much with is the main reason I don't like this post. MattZed in that game always directed votes off of obv scum players which were his teammates. He took a lot more leadership that game, but at the same time did not contribute a terrible amount. I don't see MattZed trying to lead any false lynches without anything backed up, so I don't get how you reached your vote based purely on this.

Eggy's vote:

-vote Mattzed

I think this will be a good lynch. I might change my vote to titus depending on how the game goes. Im fine with either lynch pretty much at this point.

This is where he placed his vote. There is literally NOTHING behind this vote other then "I think this will be a good lynch. I might change my vote to Titus". This is the worst vote I've ever seen.

He says he scum-reads Banana, never actually says he scum-reads MattZed just that he thinks his vote is a good vote. This feels very similar to scum!Eggy.

yzb25's vote:

What OMGUSing?

-vote Mattzed

What is Mesk's timezone?

yzb25's vote is a RVS vote if I assume this correctly. One of his first three posts was his vote.

This train sucks. Nobody has a decent reason for voting MattZed, and if they do they should share that soon. Otherwise, GTFO off this train.

[MiniZed]

Ok, I'm caught up.

-vote Never Unlucky

MiniZed, are you still scumreading me or is your vote stale?

I was leaving my vote on you because of your scummy opening and the fact that you seemed disengaged. Finally, after reading the last few votes I feel as if I can place you better and can take my RVS/pressure vote off.

-unvote

[MiniZed]

-vote Eggy

I don't want to have a single train (not including the crappy MZ train). I'd rather hear more from Eggy right now, since I don't feel very convinced that he is town currently.

[MiniZed]

Eggy (2 [L-5]):
MattZed, MiniZed
MattZed (3 [L-4]):
Eggy, yzb25, Mesk514
Never Unlucky (4 [L-3]):
GameFreak, DarknessB, Titus, BananaCucho
Titus (1 [L-6]):
secondpassing

Is Titus still your top scum-read secondpassing?

Nu where is your vote?

@Eggy @Mesk514 If you are prepared to vote for MattZed you should also have better reasons then the shit explanations you both provided. Otherwise vote someone you actually scum-read and say why.

[MiniZed]

I was leaving my vote on you because of your scummy opening and the fact that you seemed disengaged. Finally, after reading the last few votes I feel as if I can place you better and can take my RVS/pressure vote off.

-unvote

not the last few votes, sorry. I meant your last few posts.

[Mesk514]

Eggy (2 [L-5]):
MattZed, MiniZed
MattZed (3 [L-4]):
Eggy, yzb25, Mesk514
Never Unlucky (4 [L-3]):
GameFreak, DarknessB, Titus, BananaCucho
Titus (1 [L-6]):
secondpassing

Is Titus still your top scum-read secondpassing?

Nu where is your vote?

@Eggy @Mesk514 If you are prepared to vote for MattZed you should also have better reasons then the shit explanations you both provided. Otherwise vote someone you actually scum-read and say why.

I'm keeping my vote on MattZed...

also, why would you ask Eggy to change his vote if you scum read him... lol

[MiniZed]

I'm keeping my vote on MattZed...

also, why would you ask Eggy to change his vote if you scum read him... lol

Any reason why? Or is this a Mesk "gut feeling" ??

Why wouldn't I? I want to hear from him so that I don't make a mistake, as stated when I asked to hear from him

[Mesk514]

Any reason why? Or is this a Mesk "gut feeling" ??

Why wouldn't I? I want to hear from him so that I don't make a mistake, as stated when I asked to hear from him

it's a "Mesk is always town" vote

[secondpassing]

1.) This is more opinionated. Either Town or scum could do it. I don't get the contradiction thing you mentioned though.

McCree from OW followed me the entire game (Hanzo) when I was scum. He wouldn't consider the chance that I was scum no matter what happened. Even came down to the final 5 and he was not willing to vote me no matter what. I don't know why you would ever want such a strong town read as it has never worked out well. There's a few other examples but most people wouldn't be familiar.

It's sketchy for me if you have a read you aren't willing to overlook because if they are scum you almost confirm an ally for them. 4th Mafia, pretty much.

I'm fairly certain that he knows DarknessB is scum reading him. He should also know that you can't form a town block with people who scum read you.

DB said I may be over reading this, and the truth is tend to do it. I'll do a reread when I'm off of work.

[secondpassing]

You specifically used the words "give a pass" and now you're claiming that I'm null. I don't think so.

You want to ignore the bleeding town emotion because it doesn't match your narrative.

I'm pretty sure you only are using one of the two quotes I used to answer you with. That other quote detailed the TIME I null read you OR it was the quote that detailed how I was unwilling to give experienced players passes.

Don't ignore the context. I think you are scum right now.

[secondpassing]

Why are you willing to give lurkers a pass but not wanting to lynch those pushing for policy lynches?

Lurkers are the trauma of the game. I have a history with them, but nowhere did I say I have made the decision to givee them a pass yet.

The very quote you quoted is my analysis of his post when at the time he had posted little.

So how is this me giving lurkers passes? Conclusion: I'm not.

I have little problem with the way yzb25 is handling discussing policy lynching. Why do you have a problem with it?

[secondpassing]

Is this "I agree with everything but the conclusions"?

Basically. Anyway, back to work.

[yzb25]

Mattzed's posts have been focused on appearing townlike rather than actually helping town towards victory. His style has been vain yet largely shallow.
For instance, take his sucky ISO on me:

ISO on yzb25

19 - Fluff; votes NU
24 - Fluff; votes me
27 - suggests Eggy PL to start at 24 hours in
29 - Fluff
31 - Fluff response to my fluff
32 - Justifies PL on Eggy instead of Mesk because Mesk talks more
34 - Clarifies that PL on Eggy is largely an expectation he will be inactive unless voted like in S-FM Insanity
39 - explains training Eggy at 24 hours in to allow time for having more trains later
45 - Fluff, tells Mesk no one is proposing a PL on her this early
52 - says that pressure voting is still effective even if you say its for pressure
54 - Fluff
60 - Asks NU to clarify why he's so struck by the "pointlessness" of MiniZed's Page 1 questions
62 - expresses willingness to shift his "24 hour pressure" mode to a new target if Eggy is more active this game
69 - Signs off for the night
132 - Confusion on terminology
135 - Explains to Darkness that policy pressure is still effective because we aren't committed to taking the pressure off; more justification of Eggy pressure because of the unpleasantness of fighting about inactive slots after the game
136 - More terminology confusion
146 - Fluff
150 - explores the nature of Eggy's aggression and asks Mesk to comment on if it's normal
151 - Tells Darkness he'll start ISO'ing players.

A consistent theme I see out of yzb is that he's highly driven by pro-town organizing play, namely making sure town uses its voting pressure effectively to sort out as many suspects as possible and to keep inactive slots from remaining inactive. A shortfall, however, is that he hasn't done any scumhunting, but last left off suggesting he would. Spending the early part of the day to discuss strategy, before any notable content has gone by, seems quite the effective town strategy. However, he's yet to follow this up with actually trying to select anyone he finds scummy, even saying in #62 he can change his policy lynch to another target if that's how the rest of town feels. His vote is still on me because he hasn't made an opinion to change his random vote over. yzb is so far a follower through-and-through; he hesitates to form a read on Eggy because he wants to hear Mesk's perspective on Eggy's meta first, thus shifting the entire burden of making a read to someone else. I can see the blatant pro-town organizing as town-motivated, but without the follow-through, it's worrying.

Verdict: Scumlean. However, this read is subject to change based on whether yzb actually comes back to do any ISOs. If they're good, I'd be more than willing to simply see yzb as an initially cautious town who was setting up optimal lynches and pressure. If not, then he's a shy scum who picks on perceived lurkers and isn't willing to give any opinion that might not be well-received. I am very interested to know how sincere his promise to ISO really is.

If you actually scumread me, ISOing me now is a bad move. There's a reason ISOs are rarely done before the halfway mark of d1: Scum25 could read this ISO and think "oh, thanks for telling me every way someone can scumread me" and start covering his tracks! This is too tryhard, unless you're committing to lynching me TODAY (he placed his vote on Eggy).

Plus, take a closer look at the ISO. It's objective, sure, but that doesn't make it good. Most of it barely attempts to unravel yzb25's inner thoughts ("I think he said this because of this") or try to unravel my tone/persona ("saying this in this way looks scummy"), instead he simply describes my actions. ("yzb25 said this") Well woopdeedoo, anyone could fucking do that =P.

The only attempt to provide insight into me it makes is in the "final verdict" and the last few lines before it. And it's a shit verdict.

"yzb25 talked about some voting strategies the first time he was here. It seemed townish, but if he doesn't start applying crazy pressure to prove he was just a careful town biding time, he's a scum trying to fuck over the lurkers!"

And that's not an overstatement, he literally phrases it as "if his ISOs aren't good, then X is the case!" - Restricting the Options much? And the whole "ISO" seems to have built up to the only substantial point he made, that one ^!

Let's be real guys, I'm bad at this game. The last town game I played is Lady Death, after all. So, saying "if he doesn't start giving sick reads 'n' shit and doing pressure it means he's scum" is a very presumptuous conclusion.

In light of all this, which sounds more plausible?:
A) Mattzed wrote this ISO because he believed describing my posts second-source-style would be helpful to town. He wrote this to impart valuable insight into the psychology of yzb25.
B) Mattzed wrote this hyper-factual shit to look like he was contributing and had lots of town thoughts, when the only thing he did was set the stage to ez lynch me if I failed to deliver which was (and is lol) very possible given my history.

I'll look at more posts by Mattzed in less detail to show this is a trend. I just wanted to give this one an indepth look because it was the heaviest and incorporated pretty much all the concerns I have with Mattzed.

[yzb25]

Sorry I'm too derpy to slim my long posts more than that. I tried to be as blunt as possible.

[yzb25]

Is this "I agree with everything but the conclusions"?

Most of his objective facts never link well to the final conclusion of "scumread yzb25". The main point for why I'm scum is "he hasn't scumhunt yet, he seems to rely on the opinions of others by asking for Mesk's opinion", which can be completely nullified if I start scumhunting lol. So it makes sense if people read it and say "yes, yes, yes, uhm... no?"