Originally Posted by
Mizery
I'd say "I'll explain more later" but I really won't,
I think those two posts from deathworlds aren't towny, but more specifically probably because I already find him near the bottom of my PoE.
Those two specific posts are easy posts a wolf can use to get towncred (example A: this post of yours) and also feign usefulness in thread without giving reads or actually interacting in more meaningful ways.
his post being excited about getting back is the towniest thing from his posting so far.
okay yeah you know what, takes me a bit to get up and start actually reading the game, I don't do meta reads, so it takes me a while to build up enough evidence/gut for my reads.
Originally Posted by
powerofdeath
I was rereading the setup and saw that hidden PR can be a citizen, which sucks because if we have 1 mafia pretending to be a PR, and we only have 2 town PR, then there is no counter claims.
Since most PRs can be either alignments, it boil down to your basic scumhunting.
Oh a person claim detective? A doc? Well he can be mafia detective or doc too! I strongly believe that a massclaim should be in order on Day 2 if no mafia died.
Mass claim on d2 is probably the only way we win this game if we mislynch here.
Originally Posted by
Mizery
First impressions
Mizery
ikarusdk
Vittae
Marshmallow Marshall
Loldebite
powerofdeath
Deathworlds
Varcron
yo letsgo, the first readslist of the game, not exactly thrilled to be near the bottom of your list.
Originally Posted by
Mizery
Vittae had a good opening that didn't involve a lot of mech discussion, something that is less likely for wolves to do in a semi-closed setup where talking about mech is 10% distraction, 20% fluff 15% wolves not wanting useful things to discuss, 50% helpful and 50% lame but 100% a possibility from both sides of the game
I get why people hate on mech discussion, but that won't ever stop me from talking about it, also, I in general, agree with your position on Vittae here, strong opening, asking questions, generally pro-town.
Originally Posted by
Mizery
Ikarus in general is very pure and i wouldn't touch, especially one of his posts [insert post here] which was uberpure and towny of him.
Ikarus is a town read for me as well, for much of the same reasons, none of that "haha im totally not nervous to play some mafia right now" vibes you get from newer scum.
Originally Posted by
Mizery
Don't have a read on MM so far but Vittae has him as a gth townread rn it seems based on entry so I'll go with it because I can have a hard time seeing people who meme on entry and whatnot as Woflier than i probably should most of the time.
Ehhh memeing on entry isn't pro-town that's for sure, but personally, I wouldn't go so hard as to say it is damning either, closer to NAI than it is to a scum read imo.
Originally Posted by
Mizery
Based on their interactions the two wolves are likely not varcron/deathworlds and varcon's carelessness about how he is percieved in rambling about another game is slightly towny but not wanting to discuss it further if it's truly a good memory he wants to revisit makes it an option that he's trying to not get suspicion from being too far off topic
I consider the whole thing as NAI, might be reading into it too much.
Originally Posted by
Mizery
I'm not going to go into deathworlds much because my main suspicions come from his lack of content so far beyond mech discussion, and trying to boost varcron as a PR by saying the "i know what you're doing right now" as if other people aren't and wouldn't notice the callback, implying he wanted to make a point in thread to reference in the future when people ask him why he's not a wolf. He was also in thread when Ikarus posted the townread on him and despite interacting with other posts he ignores that one.
Hey now, there's a good shot that varcron is cit, or scum really.
If you think about it, useless town pr claim is a good claim for all allignments.
scum could be like: "oh hey, I'm a town power role! one of the few limited roles available, now a real town power will be forced to counterclaim in the event of mass claim and we can 1v1 in a one mislynched allowed setup, also, lookout/scout can suck it!"
citizen could be like: "Oh hey, I'm a town power role! Night kill me instead of a real town power role.
a powerful town power role could be like: "Hey, I'm a weak town power role, don't hit me scum!"
a useless tpr could be like: "Hey, I'm a useless tpr! (I am making this claim for WIFOM reasons
)
Originally Posted by
Mizery
Power is solidly null with no content leaning wolfy from post in thread being disengaged and really only interacting with deathworlds about how long their break was which could imply more likely not w with death but easily fakeable and easy to turn my read around here if i feel the need.
I too am hoping for more content from pod.
Originally Posted by
Loldebite
Great time to note that lynching is NOT mandatory, I assume this is achieved by voting "skip" ?
yup.
Originally Posted by
Loldebite
Which brings me to my point : should we make citizens claim to clear out PoE ? I know, I know, it is lame and cringe...
So, should we be doing it ?
scum makes up 1/4th of the entire population, if we can increase odds of a random lynch hitting scum by a significant enough margin (right now it's 20%), then i'd say it would be worth it.
Originally Posted by
Loldebite
On another note, since you (Vittæ) and I seem to be the only ones online and active now that mizery's gone, feel free to engage me about whatever.
To help jumpstart that, here's a rushed fresh out of bed readslist :
cute people (T leaning)
Ikarusdk (seems genuinely eager to engage in actual discussion to me or much better at pretending than I'd expect, and also cute posts)
Varcron (Pretty good feeling about the interaction with deathworlds, above vittae for now because I know them a very tiny bit better)
Vittae (Good feeling about the slot, I sense cute vibes. Yeah that might be irrational, sue me)
boringly ordinary (odds are that idk how to read these but I'll pretend for now)
PoD (Not much to think about but I get the tiniest of cute vibes and )
deathworlds (I agree that the mech is NAI, and nothing felt especially good or especially bad)
mizery (I don't believe in judging off openings anyway, reads list is nice but honestly I'm pretty sure she would've done as much as any alignment)
uglies (S leaning)
MM (I very much dislike their last post to date. Sorting roles in utility buckets alone is worth doing, had I done that in my first game ever I would've seen you were scum much faster
loldebite, could you clarify what exactly you didn't like about MM's last post?
Originally Posted by
Loldebite
Yes.
Actually, do scum have a day chat too ? If they do the idea crumbles, probably.
I assume scum would have to have at least one of theirs fakeclaim citizen, if they do play it accurately we don't gain much except an extra WIFOM layer as a freebie. Regardless, we might gain something and as such it's worth discussing.
If you're afraid about town power roles getting outted & gutted, I wouldn't be. Citizens have the majority over scum, so we don't actually need any PR to win, provided we're good enough. That is assuming no extra NKP.
This is poor logic, citizens outnumber scum in almost every game, that doesn't mean we should let our power roles die every single game.
Originally Posted by
Loldebite
Shit.
Actually, we DO gain something out of it : it gives us better information about the kind of setup we're playing. Assuming EXACTLY 1 scum fakeclaims citizen (which is the optimal response IMO) :
If town has 3 PR :
- 4 PR claims, 1 of which is scum : 25%
- 4 citizen claims, 1 of which is scum : 25%
If town has 2 PRs :
- 3 PR claims, 1 of which is scum : 33%
- 5 citizen claims, 1 of which is scum : 20%
Since even the informed majority does NOT know how many PRs there are, they can't adapt their response to unless they are the very last to claim. Which they might. Ugh.
If town has 3 PR :
- if BOTH scum fakeclaim citizens :
- 3 PR claims, 0% scum
- 5 citizen claims, 40% scum
- if BOTH scum claim PR (this should NEVER happen as this gives town the most information):
- 5 PR claims, 40% scum
- 3 citizen claim, 0% scum
If town has 2 PR :
- if BOTH scum fakeclaim citizens (shouldn't happen either but less terrible that both claiming PR with 3 TPR) :
- 2 PR claims, 0% scum
- 6 citizen claims : 33%
- if BOTH claim PR:
- 4 PR claims, 50% scum
- 4 citizen claims, 0% scum
Which means that the expected results are :
If town has 3 PR :
EITHER
- 4 PR claims, 1 of which is scum : 25%
- 4 citizen claims, 1 of which is scum : 25%
OR
- 3 PR claims, 0% scum
- 5 citizen claims, 40% scum
If town has 2 PRs :
EITHER
- 3 PR claims, 1 of which is scum : 33%
- 5 citizen claims, 1 of which is scum : 20%
OR
- 4 PR claims, 50% scum
- 4 citizen claims, 0% scum
Well this is disapointing.
it is quite disappointing indeed, an increase of 20% up to like 33% (if I understood correctly based off of scum not both claiming tpr) is not particularly significant, nor an increase of odds I would like to out all the mechanical leverage we hold at night.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
Ikarus is the most open and shut town in the game right now, clearly demonstrating a level of depth of thought way beyond what I would expect from a player who is playing his first wolf game. He doesn't act nervous / awkward, avoid solving or have difficulties pushing wolf reads - all extremely common tells in 1st time wolves - and in fact he acts very strongly to the contrary for all of those things. He just seems very genuine and excited to solve and I have no troubles calling him town.
agreed.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
MM and Miz I've talked about already and have shaky townreads on both. These are both players I want to discuss more later on once I have a better understanding of their meta but I'm happy with the posting from both right now.
mm seems to be quite contentious for people, appearing at the bottom of some peoples scum lists so far, and in the town lean areas as well.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
PoD is just not posting game-related content rn. If you look at every post they make below:
- Hello post
- Asks definition of a term
- Answers some questions from me that aren't directly game related, notably does not answer the game related question I ask. They self describe as an active player who prefers villager (but is better as mafia).
- A few small talk / fluff posts
- Setup spec
- Leaves
The only real game related thing they add is the suggestion of a D2 massclaim if no wolf is flipped and a reminder that PR claims can be wolves.
This reads as a wolf trying to blend in and appear active without contributing, making a reasonable number of posts but not actually adding anything solving-related to that. They were one of the few players around when the game first started were dead and despite checking in a few times also did nothing to try to start conversation.
Nothing that PoD has posted is bad but I'm leaning towards them being mafia on the basis that they seem to be trying to look active while avoiding any opportunity to solve given (even compared to the players who are focusing moreso on easy to fake mech posts, they're at least contributing something substantial from their perspective in a world where they're town even if the actual solving is lacking).
Will type up other reads in detail later.
You scum leaning pod right now makes me sad, mans just a bit rusty yeah? I'd hope he didn't roll scum because I'd like to play with him more.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
As others have pointed out already, Death's ISO is also devoid of solving right now but some of Death's comments suggest they're very into mech and that this might be a NAI thing for them.
Basically every mech thing Death has said has been correct so far and they corrected several other players who were making incorrect points (they responded to several posts I also responded to during my catchup with similar points to me). Not that I think this is AI, I just agree with what they're saying and could definitely believe based on what I've seen that they genuinely enjoy talking about mech as town.
I also thought the post where they said they were enjoying themselves was pretty towny lol. Death just seemed really excited to talk about mech instead of peddling it to try to get into the game as a wolf.
They're close to null for me rn, definitely a PoE slot but I want to see how they typically play before I come to a full conclusion. They have a couple of redeeming features and comparatively their contributions are much better than PoD's (despite the latter getting much less attention for lack of contribution) but as other people have said the focus solely on mech is wolfy in a vacuum.
You have all these town brownie points for me, but put me in the null slot?
Originally Posted by
Vittae
---------------------
Varcron's posting outside of the claim is also completely devoid of non-mech solving but I think the early claim in of itself is towny (even if I think it's unlikely that a villager has a truly useless role in this setup. I have thoughts on this but I don't want to dive into anything resembling public PR speculation so I'll keep those to myself. If varcron is genuinely a villager with a negative utility night action then they were smart in claiming immediately though).
I think varcron's claim is smart regardless of alignment, and therefor is NAI.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
---------------------
Looking at Deb now.
Not a fan of their entrance and the whole "Hi I'm checking in but can't post right now" and "I'm mad at myself for missing SoD" comments (paraphrased) are >rand wolf (these are pretty common wolf tells, can expand on them if asked though).
I think I understand what you're getting at right now, kinda lurky comments, being non-comitial in day chat.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
I found it mildly villagery how they initiated solving and posting reads in the thread at a point where half of the game was (and still is) not posting any solving-related content although given that Deb seems like a competent player I'm not putting too much stock into this (the effort is appreciated if you're town though deb). However, I felt that their reads were pretty thin and when I asked for an expansion on some of them the responses I got didn't really demonstrate a depth of thought beyond the surface level and the PoD/MM reads in particular I find extremely iffy. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt since they themselves considered it to be a rushed reads list and I've also had some very janky reads on rushed reads lists of my own as town.
Reminder, we are in the first 12ish hours of the game, some people need a bit of time to get the ball rolling, I in particular like to think I have a much stronger D2 than a D1.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
---------------------
Overall reads right now are looking like:
ikarusdk
Varcron
Marshmallow Marshall*
Mizery*
Deathworlds (Null)
Loldebite
powerofdeath
(* - Town but pending a higher effort meta analysis)
Overall I like this list, I'm not so sure about putting pod in the very bottom and leaving me as a null at this stage of the game seems like a reasonable thing that you would do since you are not familiar with my d1 play.
Originally Posted by
Marshmallow Marshall
Mmmm, the perfect springboard to jump into other subjects absolutely is RVS, though, and this kind of discussion normally kills RVS without replacing it with highly alignment-indicative events, which is bad.
I
really don't get the hype around RVS, is it meant to try and catch scum via vote count analysis? wouldn't that be better done when there are actual wagons being formed?
Originally Posted by
Marshmallow Marshall
And to answer your question, the answer is actually "yes, that might actually be better" lol. But that wasn't really my main point; my point was that your post looked a little performative. Making a big post to say "anti-town PRs shouldn't act if they're town" and "I think the setup has this composition" holds in like 3 sentences normally, and I believe you have tricked me as scum before by making walls because I generally like walls.
Performative forsmorative, pro town behavior is pro town, and me tricking you into liking you as scum just because you happen to like walls is a skill issue, effort-posting is not alignment indicative.
Originally Posted by
Marshmallow Marshall
I agree, but was it towny? In fact, that's basically what I'm saying: it looks good, but does it actually do anything else?
Regardless of alignment it is everyone's jobs to try to at least appear town, so they aren't being focused on being the days elimination, not alignment indicative.
Originally Posted by
powerofdeath
Also is wolf supposed to be term for being Mafia? I assume from a different website meta where wolf is the scum
yup, wolf = scum = mafia = bad guys
Originally Posted by
powerofdeath
I do appreciate deathworlds putting in a lot of work in figuring out the setup.
With that being said, theres a high chance he probably did it before the game started, before he even know his own role, so this have 0 say in his alignment.
Actually I made it after the game started, which is a rarity for me but I originally had plans around SoD so I didn't have time to setup a big setup analysis wall like I tend to do.
Originally Posted by
Marshmallow Marshall
I've only skimmed through the rest of what has been said, but first thing that catches my eye since I was talking about walls:
This feels like the "right kind" of mechanical talk: it actually indicates what happens in a rationally conducted game (and tells us that claims should be delayed to avoid giving info to scum so that they can't adjust their fake claims). I am tempted to give Debbie a preliminary townread for this - it's not strong, but I see someone actively trying to figure out what should be done.
@
ikarusdk
I am curious to see what you think about this vs Deathworlds' mechanical talk
+1, I think objectively, debbie's mechanical talk is more pro-town than mine, solving the game =/= solving the setup.
Originally Posted by
powerofdeath
I would say 90% of the players are null to me. I'm still trying to get my scumradar up and working again
I will defend you on this point today, but no longer than that, hope to see some scum hunting from you soon.
Originally Posted by
Loldebite
Oh and btw I just realized that I didn't really comply with your request, since I've posted no link to a game where I played scum, because there hasn't been any yet. Closest I ever got was some kind of neutral killer on crack but I died of
crab overload.
I'm still malding about the fact that my role-card that I created for that game didn't even get a chance to do anything.
Originally Posted by
Loldebite
They haven't said that. Not here, at least.
-vote Vittae
Ehhhhhhhhh this seems like a stretch to me, especially considering what vittae pointed out just below.
Originally Posted by
Vittae
(Apparently I have to post something and can't just quote the post so here is some text)
Originally Posted by
Vittae
This was a response to Deb saying PoD never claimed to be struggling with making reads ftr.
I think it's pretty clear here that PoD isn't refusing to make reads and would post some more at my request if they could regardless of alignment.
I think in hindsight that regardless of alignment it's easy to infer from PoD's posting that they're struggling to produce solving content (not wilfully avoiding it necessarily) again regardless of their alignment.
Not sure why you think I'd lie about this anyway deb? It wouldn't be of any benefit to me to do so as a wolf.
Vittae isn't the lynch today, saying that now.
Originally Posted by
Mizery
Kinda rude for no one to read my posts, ngl
make better content then
Originally Posted by
Mizery
Mizery
ikarusdk
Vittae
Marshmallow Marshall
Deathworlds
Varcron
powerofdeath
Loldebite
-vote loldebite
and with that we have another reads list and a vote for loldebite.