The fast start glitch and ramming through griefer saves

[Renegade]

Players such as "Law" have found a new way to ram their griefer troll saves through without giving the lobby any time to repick.

trollsave.png

If someone selects chaos mode, then switches to their save, they can start the game in half the time.

It is my opinion that this method to push through shitty saves that are likely to be repicked should be a punishable offense. Furthermore, in protest of this method, I will simply leave any game who's host uses it.

[Tauntshaman]

how about we punish every mafia player for wasting time playing mafia and sentence them to 4 weeks of tree planting to save the earth

[lawson]

yeah I agree. This "Law" guy is a real jerk. I mean, who makes saves? WHO? How dare he. He should be banned for life.

[Exeter350]

yeah I agree. This "Law" guy is a real jerk. I mean, who makes saves? WHO? How dare he. He should be banned for life.

Way to deflect from the fact that you abuse the quick start exploit.

It's OK to admit you're an asshole, you know. Pretending like you're not just makes you more of a loser.

[lawson]

This is the first time I've heard of "quick start" as an exploit. A lot of people do it. It just gets the game started faster.

How about people with 40k+ points griefing lobbies by spamming "repick repick repick" all the time with their 4x repick capabilties? Is that not an abuse of power?

Some people think they're the only person that plays this game, or their opinion is the only one that matters. They don't realize they are the very loud minority with overblown repick privileges. Renegade is a repick abuser. It only takes two repick abusers to hijack lobbies. These players tend to have a lot of points and the save will usually land on them when repicked.

People have been arguing over saves since the creation of this game. It doesn't matter WHAT your save is, someone will complain. Always. It could be a cookie cutter 933 and you'll hear "Not 8331?!??! SHIT SAVE!"

These repick abusers need to be addressed. They hijack lobbies and stifle creativity. The game is getting less and less popular. How will new people ever get to enjoy the game if they get their saves repicked by one of these bullies?

I think we should remove the additional repick votes rewarded with points. It really skews the perception that creative saves are unwanted, because even WITH these trolls trying to hijack my lobbies, they still don't succeed most of the time. That should tell you how many people actually dislike the saves. The loud minority.

Attachment 28936

[Renegade]

The solution to repick spam is to only allow repicks up to 3 times. After the third repick, the game defaults to standard and starts.

People have been arguing over saves since the creation of this game. It doesn't matter WHAT your save is, someone will complain. Always. It could be a cookie cutter 933 and you'll hear "Not 8331?!??! SHIT SAVE!"

False equivalence. People complaining about the difference between 933 and 8331 is minor. Looking at your latest creations and thinking this isn't even worth playing is a much bigger difference.

You use "cookie cutter" to undercut "standard" saves like 8331 and 933, but the fact is a lot more thought was put into the balance of those than your so called "creative" saves.

How will new people ever get to enjoy the game if they get their saves repicked by one of these bullies?

New people shouldn't be hosting saves.

because even WITH these trolls trying to hijack my lobbies, they still don't succeed most of the time. That should tell you how many people actually dislike the saves.

You actually do not give people the time to repick. So this assertion is invalid. Let's extend the time to repick to a full 30 seconds and see if any of your saves survive a simple majority of players. You use the quick start exploit to ram through your saves because you know they aren't popular.

[Renegade]

Lawson, and others who host dubious saves, refuse to even have a conversation about their saves and their balance. Talk about a hyper extreme minority, there is no attempt to even rationalize why they want these saves other than "oh look! shiny bauble DF let's throw two in for massive confusion and day shooting fun!".

Instant gratification types.

[lawson]

The save you posted in the original post is an 82221. Every save I have ever played was thoroughly thought through with balance in mind. I watched the replay of that double mason game and you even recognized that you were supposed to be the gov. But then, you didn't act like the gov. You just raged the whole game and contributed nothing towards the win condition.

What is balance to you? Balance to me is a game where all factions have an equal chance at victory. All my saves tend to end up in close games, that is most definitely the intent. Sometimes it takes a few games to get the balance right, like with any save.

You tell me I refuse to have a conversation about my saves? I will explain the idea behind every single one. You just like to shout obscenities at people. You're really good at seeming composed on these forums, but in game you're not the person you're trying to portray yourself as here.

The Double Flowers don't become Enforcer. It's a Maf vs Triad save. I put double mason to replace the gov because they can act as a gov but why would DF shoot a mason? If both masons confirmed themselves during day town would have two govs, would both DFs shoot both masons? They might need to save that for a better target. If you notice, there's no NK, the 2x DF are supposed to be the NK. Mafia has GF and Consig, because Consig becomes GF and that makes them a bit stronger. Also, the Mafia will have the benefit of information via the Consig, because they don't win ties with Triad and it might be useful for them to be able to scout out Triad. All Neutral Evils are not available in that save, including from the Any Random, because I figured without a traditional gov, Town might have a hard time versus the two factions.

I'd say that one game we played with that save, it was pretty close. As the GF, if I had shot the Det instead of the Mason, it was possible to create enough plausible deniability to where I could fool the town into thinking I was the doc and not 13.

Balance to me are close games where every faction has a chance to win. You can't judge balance just by looking at the roles list. You have to see how the game plays out.

I don't create interesting saves to troll, I create them to make new metas and provide new experiences. I play like one or two games a day, and if I DO get repicked I don't quit the lobby, I play whatever save gets loaded up. I'm not forcing anything on anyone, I'm breathing fresh air into a stale community.

[WrathCyber]

Has anyone ever tried making a 111111111111111 save before? That would be fun.

[lawson]

This guy is actually griefing the community. He's literally harassing me, personally, even when I say nothing to instigate it. Look at how he behaves in game:

ren2.png

It's funny how he makes statements like "Oo shiny bauble DF" but when I explain myself he has nothing to say. Well the image above shows you who he truly is. I spoke nothing to him in lobby or that game, but he flames waKwaK's save and then somehow my name is included in his flaming?

This is straight up harassment.

Also, this is wAkWaK's "shitty save" that got flamed all game. This is what I meant when I said "It doesn't matter WHAT your save is, someone will complain. Always."

wak.png

This guy calls us all griefers, but he's the only person actually griefing. I'm honestly getting kind of sick of this toxic behavior, and people like this should definitely not have 4x repick capabilities.

[Renegade]

Do you really think it is at all fun to play on a triad team of two DF? You become effectively useless after firing. They are simply shiny trickets for a simpleton to throw 2 in their save for all the chaos. No thought given to their balance or how it feels to get entrapped on that team as one of them. Reminds me of the any random folk that like to throw in a single triad in a mafia save.

Wakwak's save is hidden shit save. Looks normal on the surface but he doesn't mention that he sets the jester chance so high that it is likely 3 of them will spawn. I am merely informing people of that fact. I'll give you credit at least you are more explicit with your "creativity".

I will continue to bring awareness of your troll saves and encourage people to repick you Law.

[lawson]

Shit I WANT to be on the team with two DF. That's like saying Judge is effectively useless after he courts. You still have a vote, you can still lie, you can still lynch your way to victory. You also get a second shot at day 7. You have an opposing team (Mafia) that you know is evil that you can divert attention to in order to keep the lynches off of you. There are two benigns there that ALSO provide more of a gray area, AND an Any.

The whole premise is that you don't use your shot to help the Mafia, you might need to use it to SHOOT the Mafia. That's what makes it fun, it's a three faction dynamic. The triad in that save get TWO day shots. I've seen Arsonists win with fewer kills than that.

I know I'm a simpleton, but let me explain wAkWaK's save to you. There may be a high Jester chance, but there's also a Marshall with 2 lynches with 3 lynches each. I see what he's going for. Also probably why he allows for 2 NK, because Marsh is so strong.

However ALL of this is detracting from the real issue here, how toxic you are to the community. All you do is shit on everyone, and that's not OK.

[Drizzt]

Renegade, I say this with sincerity and no malice. You need to start hosting with saves you approve and have looked over. Everyone else, people with points get extra -repicks because, in theory, a person with a bunch of points should have experience enough to spot a terrible save and divert it. Personally, I only repick if they are AFK or trolling. Ren probably diverts more bad saves by having more -repicks than the average person. Does he abuse the -repicks? Idk, that's between him, the programmer, and God. We can't see that mechanic in replays. Is it a perfect system? No, but it is the system we have. He is very passionate about saves having a minimum standard of quality, and that's why he needs to start hosting.

[Renegade]

I will continue to bring awareness to poorly designed saves like yours, Etiennes, wakwaks, and others.

If that is toxic then I am proud to be toxic.

[Renegade]

trollsave2.PNG

Renegade, why are you such a villain???

This is a perfectly acceptable save from Supernoob of the notorious "CHOOO" clan. Not surprised, considering their history and present. Shocker!

You have too much power to repick Renegade! And even when you did repick, this still got jammed through!

[Stealthbomber16]

Not defending this exploit but if you want every game to be 9-3-3 or 8-4-2-1 you should be playing Town of Salem.

[lawson]

You know, you're a real piece of work, Renegade. Supernoob RARELY hosts his own saves and usually passes, but when he does I guess that makes him subject to your flame?

Not only do you make fun of his save, but you also make fun of his clan and insult his character? You're trying to make him out to be a troll when I have literally never seen him troll, all because of his save?

ren3.png

Not only does he offer to pass the save, he passes it to YOU, and now you're on the forums lambasting him? What a douche.

[rumox]

Carl always wins

[Renegade]

You know, you're a real piece of work, Renegade. Supernoob RARELY hosts his own saves and usually passes, but when he does I guess that makes him subject to your flame?

Not only do you make fun of his save, but you also make fun of his clan and insult his character? You're trying to make him out to be a troll when I have literally never seen him troll, all because of his save?

ren3.png

Not only does he offer to pass the save, he passes it to YOU, and now you're on the forums lambasting him? What a douche.

Do you know the history of the CHOOO clan? I bet you don't.

[lawson]

I know what CHOO is, do you not see the date my account was created? It was started by SCVMurderer, he used to play as THE LYNCH TRAIN, he'd prefer neutral roles and hijack games starting random lynch trains on people. It was at a time when I was preferring town exclusively, and was quite the 933 tryhard. I used to -prefer jailor and just fuckin wreck him every game because I knew what he was up to. You know the saying, you either quit young or see yourself play long enough to become the villain.

Anyways, here's some feedback on one of my "shit saves". This is the stuff I live for right here. I was "Chargin Mah Lazer" because when am I NOT DH right? lol.

whatev.jpg

P.S. Town won. In this save the Mayors keep their votes when they're culted. I provide a dynamic in this save that no other saves have, and that's EXACTLY what I go for. I want people to have fun.

[Renegade]

What type of illegal manipulation did you do to get 2 mayors? I know you like to monkey around with the saves to force things that normally should not be allowed.

[Renegade]

I wonder what the staff thinks about adding a save with multiple mayors. This is something that is not possible via the editor, so I wonder what hack @lawson used to do it.

AddMayor.PNG

I wonder if @Auwt , @MrMostache , or any other staff have anything to say about Lawson using illegal saves.

[lawson]

That's right. Gloss over the fact that everyone had a great time. Let's face it, this ENTIRE thread of yours isn't about the saves, it's about winning an argument, and when you see people having fun in a "shit save" it kinda shits on your argument that I'm a griefer ramming "troll saves" to "troll the community".

So I ask you, what's more toxic to the community? Unique saves that offer a fun, new experience or toxic players that think they run the show cussing out everyone for minor things?

[Renegade]

Your save isn't unique. Your save is illegal.

[Renegade]

Surprise Surprise, Law aka "lawson" in his attempt to grief this community once again, tried to host a 2 godfather save. The only way to create that is to hack.

Staff doesn't seem to care. Very sad.

[Auwt]

I wonder what the staff thinks about adding a save with multiple mayors. This is something that is not possible via the editor, so I wonder what hack @lawson used to do it.

AddMayor.PNG

I wonder if @Auwt, @MrMostache, or any other staff have anything to say about Lawson using illegal saves.

That's right. Gloss over the fact that everyone had a great time. Let's face it, this ENTIRE thread of yours isn't about the saves, it's about winning an argument, and when you see people having fun in a "shit save" it kinda shits on your argument that I'm a griefer ramming "troll saves" to "troll the community".

So I ask you, what's more toxic to the community? Unique saves that offer a fun, new experience or toxic players that think they run the show cussing out everyone for minor things?

First thing first, having two mayors, or two GF, or any other unique role doubled is not permissible through the in-game editor.
Which is raising a main issue; how does Law have this setup in the first place?
Two possible answers:

1- Bank Hacking (I won't elaborate here)
2- Copied from another bank hacker

Either way, Law should get rid of this setup before trouble starts to accumulate.
If none of the above answers are correct, feel free to tell me how you achieved this, Law.

Now, about the community statement.

Hosting a save with Stump is prohibited, why? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it is forbidden, and you can't 'legally', so you don't.
Hosting a save with Caroler/EB/Justice is not directly prohibited through the rules ? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it was slated to be an event role, and people having this role in their own setup had to remove it.
Hosting a save with 2xMayor/2xGF/2xUnique is not directly prohibited through the rules ? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it is stated in the role description 'UNIQUE', so it is planned to be a 'UNIQUE' role, so this is NOT EVEN RULE-BREAKING, this is GAME-BREAKING.

So as long as the word UNIQUE is present in the description, and as long as you are running save with multiple self-unique role(s), you are gamebreaking.
Gamebreaking is an offense.
There is a huge gap between having a fun/pleasant/new experience and having a save you are not supposed to have unless you made use of 3P, or copied someone who did so.
People have been punished in the past for running Stump saves, and this situation is relatable.
Therefore, I would advise you to remove those kind of setups, as fast as you can.

[rumox]

Once upon a time when sotd was a thing there was a setup that had two confirmed Mayors

[Renegade]

Thank you @Auwt .

[Auwt]

Once upon a time when sotd was a thing there was a setup that had two confirmed Mayors

Yeah, indeed, I also recall an old version of this.

Most recently : Bending the Rules of Sanity

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...617#post422617

That one (or an alike version) is definitely live, asfair.
The title tells a lot, though.

[Renegade]

These illegal saves are making it out into the wild, courtesy of Law.

Just now someone who isn't law is hosting a double constable save.

[Renegade]

And law is actually hosting this save right now. law save 2-3.jpg

[Space Milk]

>this thread

NO FUN ALLOWED.jpg

[Space Milk]

These illegal saves are making it out into the wild, courtesy of Law.

Just now someone who isn't law is hosting a double constable save.

Holy shit, this is like the time when Jessie from the hit TV series Breaking Bad snuck meth into a drug addicts anonymous meeting.

[Space Milk]

People are just trying to have fun. Chaos is fun. New, untested saves are fun. The new and unknown is fun. I LIKE Law's saves. I LIKE these weird crazy saves with two Constables, I actually thought the 2 constable save was a legal one until browsing this thread. And plenty of other people like them too.


You know what isn't fun? Doing the same 933 formula over and over again. Or having to share a space with individuals with diagnosed personality disorders condescendingly telling other people what they can and cannot enjoy looking like this:

1945 - 03-6-02-23 - firefox.png

You need to lighten up Renegade. Maybe touch grass while you're at it.

[Renegade]

More simpletons impressed by shiny baubles. If you like cRaZiNeSs and ChAoS go blow your retirement at a casino.

[Exeter350]

First thing first, having two mayors, or two GF, or any other unique role doubled is not permissible through the in-game editor.
Which is raising a main issue; how does Law have this setup in the first place?
Two possible answers:

1- Bank Hacking (I won't elaborate here)
2- Copied from another bank hacker

Either way, Law should get rid of this setup before trouble starts to accumulate.
If none of the above answers are correct, feel free to tell me how you achieved this, Law.

Now, about the community statement.

Hosting a save with Stump is prohibited, why? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it is forbidden, and you can't 'legally', so you don't.
Hosting a save with Caroler/EB/Justice is not directly prohibited through the rules ? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it was slated to be an event role, and people having this role in their own setup had to remove it.
Hosting a save with 2xMayor/2xGF/2xUnique is not directly prohibited through the rules ? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it is stated in the role description 'UNIQUE', so it is planned to be a 'UNIQUE' role, so this is NOT EVEN RULE-BREAKING, this is GAME-BREAKING.

So as long as the word UNIQUE is present in the description, and as long as you are running save with multiple self-unique role(s), you are gamebreaking.
Gamebreaking is an offense.
There is a huge gap between having a fun/pleasant/new experience and having a save you are not supposed to have unless you made use of 3P, or copied someone who did so.
People have been punished in the past for running Stump saves, and this situation is relatable.
Therefore, I would advise you to remove those kind of setups, as fast as you can.

Auwt, thanks for speaking up on this and acknowledging this issue.
I hope more attention will be put to cracking down on such illegal setups.

@lawson Would you like to enlighten us how you create these illegal setups? I seem to recall the last time I called you out on the invalid roles (Justice, Elector, etc), you claimed it was leftover data from map updates. What's your excuse now? Do tell us, I'm dying to find out.

People are just trying to have fun. Chaos is fun. New, untested saves are fun. The new and unknown is fun. I LIKE Law's saves. I LIKE these weird crazy saves with two Constables, I actually thought the 2 constable save was a legal one until browsing this thread. And plenty of other people like them too.

As Ren succinctly put it: shiny baubles.

Or having to share a space with individuals with diagnosed personality disorders condescendingly telling other people what they can and cannot enjoy looking like this

You're referring to yourself, Law and like-minded people telling others 933 and 8331 is boring and sucks, and "new, untested saves" are fun, right?

You need to lighten up Renegade. Maybe touch grass while you're at it.

Ah, the good ol' "why so serious?" argument, as if that addresses anything (it doesn't).
Maybe you'd like to come up with actual points, but that seems too much to expect.

[Exeter350]

Not defending this exploit but if you want every game to be 9-3-3 or 8-4-2-1 you should be playing Town of Salem.

The flexibility of SC2Mafia is unfortunately a double-edged sword. We get pretty fun unusual setups from time to time, but most of the time they're an unbalanced mess.
I know various creators do their best to "balance" their setups... but more often than not, they cannot even explain how balance works in Mafia.
How can they create balance when they don't even understand what it is??

Why is calling out such poorly-made setups a bad thing? How can the creators improve if they refuse to listen to feedback?

Or perhaps, they think they know better than everyone else? It's as if they are deaf to criticism.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out bad setups and preferring tried-and-tested formulas like 933 and 8331.

@lawson Do you even know what's KPN?

[rumox]

DR more or less approved these setups by adding them into the sotd feature. I think a better solution to your problem is to host your own games rather than have moderation step in for you.

[Renegade]

DR more or less approved these setups by adding them into the sotd feature. I think a better solution to your problem is to host your own games rather than have moderation step in for you.

The game literally will not let you create the setups in the editor.

Are you encouraging bank hacking? Because that is the only way to create these saves.

Totally not surprised the staff encourages hacking.

[Exeter350]

DR more or less approved these setups by adding them into the sotd feature. I think a better solution to your problem is to host your own games rather than have moderation step in for you.

I assume by "these setups", you're referring to the 2 Mayors SOTD setup.
It is true that there was such a setup, and that it was officially approved to be in the game.
However, such a setup is not possible for a player to create without bankhacking.

Perhaps you didn't read the thread in detail. I direct you to Auwt's clear summary of the issue:

First thing first, having two mayors, or two GF, or any other unique role doubled is not permissible through the in-game editor.
Which is raising a main issue; how does Law have this setup in the first place?
Two possible answers:

1- Bank Hacking (I won't elaborate here)
2- Copied from another bank hacker

Either way, Law should get rid of this setup before trouble starts to accumulate.
If none of the above answers are correct, feel free to tell me how you achieved this, Law.

Now, about the community statement.

Hosting a save with Stump is prohibited, why? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it is forbidden, and you can't 'legally', so you don't.
Hosting a save with Caroler/EB/Justice is not directly prohibited through the rules ? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it was slated to be an event role, and people having this role in their own setup had to remove it.
Hosting a save with 2xMayor/2xGF/2xUnique is not directly prohibited through the rules ? It could potentially be a lot of fun ? But it is stated in the role description 'UNIQUE', so it is planned to be a 'UNIQUE' role, so this is NOT EVEN RULE-BREAKING, this is GAME-BREAKING.

So as long as the word UNIQUE is present in the description, and as long as you are running save with multiple self-unique role(s), you are gamebreaking.
Gamebreaking is an offense.
There is a huge gap between having a fun/pleasant/new experience and having a save you are not supposed to have unless you made use of 3P, or copied someone who did so.
People have been punished in the past for running Stump saves, and this situation is relatable.
Therefore, I would advise you to remove those kind of setups, as fast as you can.

It is also worth noting that SOTD is no longer in the game, and neither is the 2 Mayors setup.

[DJarJar]

DR more or less approved these setups by adding them into the sotd feature. I think a better solution to your problem is to host your own games rather than have moderation step in for you.

bad take all around

1) even if you host your own save you can be repicked
2) the bad actors here are using a glitch frinckles needs to patch where they can force through a bad save before there is enough time for people to repick
3) even the customization that is actually ALLOWED by the save editor allows for plenty of shit saves so certainly anything NOT allowed by it is especially egregious
4) A single SOTD might have actually been good and balanced - doesn't mean other people should be trusted with the power to make their own shit version of it
5) mafia games are hard enough to get into at this point that "just play a different lobby" isn't viable anymore. There is one lobby most of the time. And it therefore needs to have a reasonably balanced save

[Exeter350]

bad take all around

1) even if you host your own save you can be repicked
2) the bad actors here are using a glitch frinckles needs to patch where they can force through a bad save before there is enough time for people to repick
3) even the customization that is actually ALLOWED by the save editor allows for plenty of shit saves so certainly anything NOT allowed by it is especially egregious
4) A single SOTD might have actually been good and balanced - doesn't mean other people should be trusted with the power to make their own shit version of it
5) mafia games are hard enough to get into at this point that "just play a different lobby" isn't viable anymore. There is one lobby most of the time. And it therefore needs to have a reasonably balanced save

To be fair to Frink, this exploit existed in 1.0. However, your point that it needs to be fixed still stands.

Think you and Auwt hit the nail on the head on everything.

[rumox]

bad take all around

1) even if you host your own save you can be repicked
2) the bad actors here are using a glitch frinckles needs to patch where they can force through a bad save before there is enough time for people to repick
3) even the customization that is actually ALLOWED by the save editor allows for plenty of shit saves so certainly anything NOT allowed by it is especially egregious
4) A single SOTD might have actually been good and balanced - doesn't mean other people should be trusted with the power to make their own shit version of it
5) mafia games are hard enough to get into at this point that "just play a different lobby" isn't viable anymore. There is one lobby most of the time. And it therefore needs to have a reasonably balanced save

bad takes all around

speculative, subjective and egregiously nanny like.

the only game issue that has come to light that should be changed is the quick start. that way if it is true people are just asleep during setup and don't repick these brave setups in time, now there is no excuse for them to go through.

[lawson]

rumox I don't believe I've said this yet but you are the fuckin bomb.

thank you.

do you guys really care that much about two constables? I literally didn't intend this entire discussion to happen due to my post, but it seems like you all missed the point of why I posted it.... so here goes.

"this is too good"

"this is the best mafia game" ... "I've ever seen"

"this is so beautiful"

It's like you all missed the point.

whatev.jpg

EDIT: P.S. if people are literally copying my 2 constable setups and making their own versions of it, can one really make the argument that "everyone hates it cut that shit out"?

[Renegade]

rumox I don't believe I've said this yet but you are the fuckin bomb.

thank you.

do you guys really care that much about two constables? I literally didn't intend this entire discussion to happen due to my post, but it seems like you all missed the point of why I posted it.... so here goes.

"this is too good"

"this is the best mafia game" ... "I've ever seen"

"this is so beautiful"

It's like you all missed the point.

whatev.jpg

EDIT: P.S. if people are literally copying my 2 constable setups and making their own versions of it, can one really make the argument that "everyone hates it cut that shit out"?

Yes fellate him more while you are at it.

You ignore the fact that you are hacking to create your saves and all the criticism waged at them. You are a narcissist, and now your thin veil of charm is even better.

We will solve the law problem one way or another.

[JKim]

This seems like a map problem to me.

Map should allow for 2 constable saves to be officially made.

Are there any alternatives to -mafia- can allow for this?

[Auwt]

This seems like a map problem to me.

Map should allow for 2 constable saves to be officially made.

Are there any alternatives to -mafia- can allow for this?

I can give you an alternative if you want.
You would probably not like it.

[Space Milk]

If people don't like it, they can repick.

I've never even seen people even complain about the 2 constable save and I've played it over a dozen times already completely unaware of its origins.

The only problem that exists here is that a couple of people with poor character want to force their opinions, their tastes, their idea of what is ethical and what isn't in a video game, onto the majority. They don't like how the democratic repick system doesn't vote """correctly""", so they are asking admins to intervene on their behalf.

[Exeter350]

If people don't like it, they can repick.

They don't have time to repick if the host uses the quick start exploit.

They don't like how the democratic repick system doesn't vote """correctly""", so they are asking admins to intervene on their behalf.

It's not a democratic system if players are not given enough time to vote. And yes, due to the quick start exploit, the system doesn't work correctly.

I've never even seen people even complain about the 2 constable save and I've played it over a dozen times already completely unaware of its origins.

Blatant subjective bias or social unawareness. Or perhaps, a habit of ignoring "haters" or "the opposition"?

There are many complaints. I am aware that there are also some supporters. I make no claims as to what the "majority" is because that's stupid. Anyone can make such a baseless claim. Please show your statistical data instead of anecdotal observation which is more prone to bias.

The only problem that exists here is that a couple of people with poor character want to force their opinions, their tastes, their idea of what is ethical and what isn't in a video game, onto the majority.

Bank hackers, bug exploiters and rule breakers are paragons of virtue to you, are they?

These are the people who abuse the quick start bug to circumvent the democratic repick system that you espouse.

[Renegade]

Look at Law, hosting more griefer saves. His latest creation designed to fuck town at all costs.

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2 KPN + mafia killing.

Can we get him banned from hosting saves?