Two roles and two options

[Beuzmoker]

Hi,

Here some roles:

Role name : Loudmouth
Alignment : Town
Categories : Power

Abilities : Reveal anonymously at the end of the night all players who visits you at night.

Win Condition : Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Sheriff : Not Suspicous.

Investigator : Disturbing the peace

Host Options :
Can't send private message - (Default = On)

Role name : Advocate
Alignment : Neutral
Categories : Evil

Abilities : When a player is put on trial, you will get a message of all crimes he has comitted

Win Condition : Survive and see the town lose the game.

Sheriff : Not Suspicous.

Investigator : No Crime.

Host Options :
Reveal exact role - (Default = Off)
Reveal all targets - (Default = Off)
Reveal last will - (Default = Off)

Note :
Disabled if trial option is Off.

And new options:

Disguiser/Informant: Can not kill - (Default = Off)

Amnesiac: Can not win as Amnesiac - (Default = Off)

[Cryptonic]

What's the point of Disguiser if it can't kill?

[RLVG]

What's the point of Disguiser if it can't kill?

Luckiest Witching ever.

[Beuzmoker]

What's the point of Disguiser if it can't kill?

Disguiser and Mafia killer must target the same, like janitor.

[Slaol]

Disguiser and Mafia killer must target the same, like janitor.

Not terrible, but definitely not good.

Disguisers whole thing is that he adds a Kill to the game. Then the rest of the face swap

[DarknessB]

Not terrible, but definitely not good.

Disguisers whole thing is that he adds a Kill to the game. Then the rest of the face swap

Agreed with Slaol. Seems like your option just creates a weaker Disguiser with a much more limited ability. For example, if the GF is prevented from killing for some reason, then the Disguiser's ability alone can't do anything. It's sort of relegating a Disguiser to much more of a niche support / confusion Mafia role, like Janitor. Unless you want to allow this new Disguiser to have two swaps or something (which would have its own problems for sure), seems far too limited to be useful.

[Cryptonic]

If that was disguiser, I'd say it should have multiple charges and can't ever clean role lol

[Beuzmoker]

Disguiser is the most powerful deception mafia role, it can be a way to nerf it.
Notice that mafia often don't want to kill when the disguiser use his ability, so this option won't matter in that case.

Also, it's just an option, nobody force you to put it on.

[SuperJack]

I must say. I love that option for amnesiac.

[DarknessB]

Disguiser is the most powerful deception mafia role, it can be a way to nerf it.
Notice that mafia often don't want to kill when the disguiser use his ability, so this option won't matter in that case.

Also, it's just an option, nobody force you to put it on.

I know you said "most powerful deception mafia role", but for a number of reasons, I don't think the Disguiser is overly powerful in a general sense:

1. Unless disabled by the host, there's typically a unique death sound / description associated with Disguiser. This puts the Town on notice that someone previously cleared might be suspicious again. This reduces a lot of the element of surprise involved with a Disguiser.
2. The Disguiser's kill is can be prevented by an Escort roleblock, Doctor / Bodyguard protection, Veteran alert, etc. Thus, there's some risk in charging aggressively at a revealed Mayor for example.
3. It's a one-time ability. We're literally talking about one extra kill for the Mafia and a role that can't otherwise do anything at night. I think that's a fair trade-off -- i.e. it's not like the Disguiser has any other night action to help the Mafia in the meantime.
4. Disguisers can often be rooted out by any of the following: typing style, quirks of the disguised person, quirks of the Disguiser, loss of Mayor votes, not having the disguised person's LW ready to show, previous conversations involving use of codes / something that the disguised person told to someone else, etc. In some games, there's a decent amount of skill required to conceal yourself as a Disguiser, especially if you take the identity of someone who was previously active.

The only time I've ever seen Disgusiers be abusive is when you have a troll host that gives the Mafia two of them. That usually results in both using their ability Night 1, resulting in 3 Mafia kills, which tends to cripple the Town. That's more a setup issue than a role issue though.

[SuperJack]

Disguiser is the most powerful deception mafia role, it can be a way to nerf it.
Notice that mafia often don't want to kill when the disguiser use his ability, so this option won't matter in that case.

Also, it's just an option, nobody force you to put it on.

Coroner and Spy nerf it if I recall .

[DarknessB]

I must say. I love that option for amnesiac.

LOL, the Amnesiac option is interesting, but I think it would encourage me to become scum, unless the game was a Town steamroll. That said, winning as non-converted Amnesiac is very difficult -- basically the Survivor win condition sans vests so I don't see any reason to punish the Amnesiac for not converting.

[SuperJack]

LOL, the Amnesiac option is interesting, but I think it would encourage me to become scum, unless the game was a Town steamroll. That said, winning as non-converted Amnesiac is very difficult -- basically the Survivor win condition sans vests so I don't see any reason to punish the Amnesiac for not converting.

Because Amnesiac should be more difficult to play. Why should he win if he does nothing all game? Forcing him to pick a role before the game ends and death leave him a choice.

The earlier he remembers, the less chance of being killer or not picking a role falls.
The later he remembers, the better choice of which faction to pick is chosen.

[Cryptonic]

Because Amnesiac should be more difficult to play. Why should he win if he does nothing all game? Forcing him to pick a role before the game ends and death leave him a choice.

The earlier he remembers, the less chance of being killer or not picking a role falls.
The later he remembers, the better choice of which faction to pick is chosen.

how do you get amnesiac solo win tho =[

[SuperJack]

Dont have the option on. lol

[Cryptonic]

You can't change win conditions with options, though.

Win condition checks are hard coded into splash screens and the game ending.

Editing any of them is nigh on impossible and can break a myriad of other features.

[DarknessB]

Because Amnesiac should be more difficult to play. Why should he win if he does nothing all game? Forcing him to pick a role before the game ends and death leave him a choice.

The earlier he remembers, the less chance of being killer or not picking a role falls.
The later he remembers, the better choice of which faction to pick is chosen.

Typically an Amnesiac who does nothing all game doesn't survive, at least in my experience. He'll either get branded as scum and lynched ("X hasn't said anything all game -- vote him up") or randomly attacked at night by a Vigilante / executed by a Jailor because he hasn't provided any information to the Town (if he's not participating in discussion) or night killed by scum because they can't get a good read on him. Also, Town are often hostile to an Amnesiac because they fear he will convert to scum, especially if the reveal option is off. That's all to say -- there's a very delicate balance for an Amnesiac in terms of not drawing the Town's attention or scum's attention before conversion.

If the Amnesiac can survive until the end of the game with no team and no night protection, I'd say all power to him and he deserves a win. An Amnesiac who doesn't pick a role is essentially a vestless Survivor -- I see no problem with that in terms of a win condition.

[SuperJack]

You can't change win conditions with options, though.

Proof?

[Cryptonic]

Proof?

The.. quote that was in my post?

[Bunny]

The.. quote that was in my post?

Proof that was your post

[Frog]

I don't think this quote counts as proof.

This is proof.

[SuperJack]

So, you can. But its just really really hard. K. I was right.

[Cryptonic]

So, you can. But its just really really hard. K. I was right.

Lol why the attitude? Do you have a sandy vagina something

Nigh impossible = not worth the effort just for a benign neutral role option. Aka no one will do it

[Elixir]

I don't think this quote counts as proof.

Proof?

A quote from someone who actively assists on map QA, design and probably has already discussed these kinds of things directly with Rev, who hand coded the game, is probably worth a little more than you guys give credit for.

The only way to do what you're talking about in the map is to make the amnesiac class unable to win the game period and remove their win condition, and splash, entirely.

You cant option this on or off without rewriting the entire victory condition code and allowing it to trigger check.

They can either win, or they cannot.

So yeah, in the scheme of things you're technically right in that its possible. Though I doubt rewriting >1000 lines of code for such a menial change is something worth considering

[Elixir]

Hi,

Here some roles:

Role name : Loudmouth
Alignment : Town
Categories : Power

Abilities : Reveal anonymously at the end of the night all players who visits you at night.

Win Condition : Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Sheriff : Not Suspicous.

Investigator : Disturbing the peace

Host Options :
Can't send private message - (Default = On)

Role name : Advocate
Alignment : Neutral
Categories : Evil

Abilities : When a player is put on trial, you will get a message of all crimes he has comitted

Win Condition : Survive and see the town lose the game.

Sheriff : Not Suspicous.

Investigator : Corruption

Host Options :
Reveal exact role - (Default = Off)
Reveal all targets - (Default = Off)
Reveal last will - (Default = Off)

And new options:

Disguiser/Informant: Can not kill - (Default = Off)

Amnesiac: Can not win as Amnesiac - (Default = Off)

Role 1) Easy to self confirm. Self confirming roles are very powerful as is. I'm sure there are interesting dynamics you could pull with something like this but you have to ask yourself (especially on the wild west of bnet pubs) is this role something I would actually want to play? It seems like a sit there and watch shit happen role rather than actively contributing. All in all its not horrible but doesnt add anything interesting or striking

5/10

Role 2) Neutral Evil with a town loss objective. This is an interesting dynamic but requires trial to be on, where some games may only have majority. This is the same problem with roles like lawyer and shit that require a certain option on to be viable. That said, the role itself seems like it could cause a lot of confusion which is the point of a neut evil. I dont like the options as they are but they can be tweaked around the core idea of an investigative neut evil -- something the game doesnt really have. So if theres a way to make it work with other game modes it could be an interesting mechanic to look into further

edit: Maybe something with charges that like goes to someones house like a lookout and gathers crimes/roles from everyone there? Dunno. Something to think about

8/10

New options

They are both not great sorry.

1) Disguiser's +1 kpn is part of his kit. Its also very strong in games that dont have night seq. on and you know your GF got jailed as the death descp. is the same -- so you can make it look like the kill still went through. Making him a psuedo-janitor isnt required with counters like lookout, coroner and investigator in the game (Identity theft is a pretty good one yo).

2) Amnesaic. ^ Reasons in last post.

[Beuzmoker]

Thank you for your feedback.
I also don't like role that can be easily confirmed, but this one is not as easy to confirm as Mayor and Marshall but more like a Veteran. If I had to play this role, I would be aggro just like a Veteran. But unlike Veteran, it would make more like an investigative way. He is not as fun to play as Veteran but can surely add something to the game in his own way.

I feel like Advocate could be really fun to play, town would be more careful when putting someone on trial. And of course, this role would be disabled if there is no trial.

[Elixir]

That's the thing, we can't design roles around options like that because we in turn end up forcing a correct option set up

edit: but now I am thinking about ways to put an investigative sort of role into neut evil because it is a pretty nice gap you've identified