Skyline ; 1-S2-1-5100974

[Firebringer]

Account Name: Claudio
Account ID: 1-S2-1-5100974
In-Game Name: Skyline

Crimes Committed: Reactionary Gamethrowing

Your Account Name: Firebringer
Summary: Player has the judge role, during Day 2 I reveal as mayor he calls court. I order town to lynch 5, 5 is lynched and reveals SK.
Judge is unhappy with Triad and neutrals so he says he is going to help the town. Completely ignoring his role card, he helps town.
When all triad are dead he suicides.

gmthrow.SC2Replay

[Arrow]

No replay?

[Firebringer]

Ohh did I not put it in? LOL

[Frog]

In progress

[Cryptonic]

must be a long game

[Frog]

conferring with older warden/admins on old vs. new thoughts on neutral gamethrow rules.

[Cryptonic]

If Firebringers summary is true, it's intentional gamethrowing. A neutral can't activity work against its own win condition. It can be used as a strategy to out the Mafia/Triad (since you can win without them), but not when you just suicide afterwards (since it's obvious you had no intention of trying to win). If he gamethrew because Mafia/Triad was really being piss poor, I guess It would then be reactionary gamethowing.

[Frog]

If Firebringers summary is true, it's intentional gamethrowing. A neutral can't activity work against its own win condition. It can be used as a strategy to out the Mafia/Triad (since you can win without them), but not when you just suicide afterwards (since it's obvious you had no intention of trying to win). If he gamethrew because Mafia/Triad was really being piss poor, I guess It would then be reactionary gamethowing.

Agree. Was asking more specifically about neutral role quitting than neutral game throwing.

I agree on all thoughts it's an offense. Will post a review with notes.

(Discussed with Fred, Helz, Fire)

[IceePirate]

Perma-Ban has already been requested against skyline, I see no reason to do an extra report when he has a perma-ban in the works.

I shall leave this as approved for now to satisfy my OCD.

[fred]

Based on the what was only said, i'll give my review.

1: He goes against his win condition, which in itself is currently gamethrowing.
2: He goes so far as to go against anyone that could possibly be aligned with him
3. He suicides.

In effect, if he had just left the game or refused to do his job he would have been fine. The fact that he dragged others down with him makes the case pretty apparent.

[Slaol]

Killing people of other alignments isnt a peoblem.
Leaving as a solo faction isnt a problem.

What else did he do?

[fred]

Helping town. That's not his faction. That's against your own faction. If your intention is to go against your win condition on purpose, it's throwing.

[Slaol]

But solos have never been punished for solo throwing.

Id look into skyping, figure out if someone in town was on his side, but i mean so far...

[Damus_Graves]

I don't know why anyone thought it was a good idea to play fuck the world with this report thread but please don't do that.
We have literally infracted/banned people for posting in report threads they have no place in.
Then we go and do this as staff members? The hypocrisy hurts my head.

If we were all regular members there would be mass infractions going out I suspect. So lets keep this professional please. Thank you.

Correct me if I am wrong but we have never punished solo factions for gamethrowing because the only person they fuck over are themselves.

Also why was this changed to mod abuse report? Skyliner is not a mod.
Also why was this stickied? There is nothing sticky worthy about this thread.
Also why isn't this reviewed yet? There have been a million posts from staff members dicking around.

[Helios]

That´s right neutrals can basically do whatever they want, thats in particular why they are called neutrals.

[Cryptonic]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...rals+gamethrow


Not playing towards your win condition ruins the balance of games, which is why this was decided.

[Mugy]

Not playing to your win condition as neutral is clearly game-throwing, but I'd like to add that neutral gamethrowing usually doesn't hurt anyone other than the person.

Unless the game-throw seriously pissed people off or was done purely with intention to piss people off and ruin the whole game, I would not bother punishing.

Our job isn't to enforce a rule word by word... it's to remove toxic people.

Was all that role playing necessary? Needs report review.

Edit: thought about it for a while, it sounds more like a one-off event. Also, if this is punishable, then what about mafia intentionally killing a judge for the lulz?

[Cryptonic]

Not playing to your win condition as neutral is clearly game-throwing, but I'd like to add that neutral gamethrowing usually doesn't hurt anyone other than the person.

Unless the game-throw seriously pissed people off or was done purely with intention to piss people off and ruin the whole game, I would not bother punishing.

Our job isn't to enforce a rule word by word... it's to remove toxic people.

Was all that role playing necessary? Needs report review.

Although, if you create a well balanced game and SK decides not to kill unless someone is confirmed non-town and votes with town every chance he gets, that completely destroys the balance of a game and Mafia/Triad would stand no chance. Seems like a waste of time to have to be involved in something like that lol.
Unless you're trying to actually still win when it comes down to it, then it should be punished, albeit extremely lightly.
Benigns should be the only roles that can do whatever they want, not Neutral Evils (to an extent), in my opinion.

But yes, Frog (or someone else) does need to actually post a review on the site. Even if he is discussing it on Skype, it should be on here if it was reviewed, and then everyone can comment about it on the site; It's more efficient that way. It also looks extremely poor to have a bunch of information talked about that someone requesting an Appeal can't see or refute.

[Slaol]

I had forgotten Revenant's statement on the topic, but it doesn't create a scenario in which a punishment is needed either. Game throwing as a solo neutral is not something that needs to be punished. We can discuss the impacts of the player's actions all day, discuss how it plays with balance and how we think it ruined a game. However in the thread alone we see a hard line drawn over this subject.

The golden rule is that if nobody is bothered by it in-game, it's not gamethrowing. If everyone is having fun there is no need for a punishment. It's when someone's game is ruined that we should punish the offender.

While it is definitely game throwing at a definition level even Revenant says we will only punish if someone feels the game was ruined. However no one who could complain about his actions is even of his own alignment. And once again the line that he has no teammates to ruin the game for is where we should consider punishment at, and if we begin punishing of counter-productive strategies on the principle that they weren't trying to win we will definitely catch many players who were being funny or trolling or trying something odd that also happened to lose.

We should not restrict the rules on how people play to limit them to "clearly" playing to their win condition in a game of lies and manipulation. If we want to talk balance, please note that Revenant wasn't even asking for a blind following to the rule, and Elixir said the rule is fucking terrible. Balance as spoken and the rule isn't a hard rule.

Neutrals won't be punished unless they have teammates.

[Cryptonic]

I agree with that. If a punishment is ever made by someone who is reported a few times for it, I'd say maximum short-term watchlist lol. Because if they're being reported more than once (by different people), chances are those reporters feel their game was ruined.

I don't think that we, as staff, should report this, 'cause it's hard to determine if our game was ruined or we're just being sticklers for the rules.

[Helz]

Our job isn't to enforce a rule word by word... it's to remove toxic people.

This said it very well.

I believe Rev's exact words when I said to him that 'Neutrals can't game throw' were
"Thats fucking stupid. Of course neutrals can game throw"

I remember one specific player who always use to reveal to town and work like a night immune vigilante killing all non town then suicide at the end. That is not the case here. And it looked to me like nobody was offended, the balance of the game was not destroyed, and the replay was reported by staff as opposed to the community.

For those reasons I am going to mark this ignored but leave it where it is for a few days. If anyone wants to do some real in depth review or some other staff has an issue with me marking this ignored feel free to post. Otherwise I will move the thread in 2 days or so.