Meaningless roles

[Bruno]

Since people can't take criticism if asked in an informal manner,I appeal to all with a valid opinion:

Has the moderator role grown pointless (aside from giving you powers)

Plenty have worked for their roles in staff, in fact in recent memory all staff earned their role. Now, because he had a map some staff member enjoyed, Coast is promoted to moderator. Unlike all staff, not only did he not earn this role, but I can't think of anything he's done to earn anybody's respect other than having the ability to infract.

This is mostly a question to active and past staff members, how do you feel about Coast becoming a mod for no reason, whereas you earned it.

He'll probably delete this since the truth hurts, but I'm legitimately interested. Not everyone can be okay with a random and previously inactive nobody becoming mod solely because he made a map, can they?


Discuss.

[creedkingsx]

He didn't become mod "solely" because he is the creator of another map.
He asked to be Keeper, like the other keepers that were hired around the same time.
Personally, I didn't even know he was part of PvZ when I said I was okay with hiring him.
We did our little screening that we do for keepers and he wasn't a piece of shit, which is the essential role of what we do now.
He, then, did like 400 reports, i.e. worked his ass off and continues to do so, and we wanted to stick to our quota of 3 mods on Gen. Disc.
With Damus moving to Wise Men, there was an expectation of less work focused on moderation from him.

[Coast]

Hello!

I've actually been an avid player of Mafia since late 2011, and have enjoyed over 2000 games. I've been the active developer of Probes vs Zealot 2 since around September 2013. Your posts recently have been basically spam, and the staff members agreed we need to clean up General Discussion a bit. We're currently in the process of developing a sub-forum where you're welcome to post whatever content you wish with little to no moderation (excluding extreme cases of course).

I'll explain a little bit about my self which hopefully answers all your questions. Earlier this year I asked Appley if it was possible to apply for the a keeper position as I felt Mafia needed some extra assistance with the constant trolling in-game. He explained that I would need to post an application in the answer hall, and a staff member would contact me if they were interested in my application. A few days later Creed contacted me asking me if I had a bit of time to talk to him in Skype. Slaol, and Creed eventually determined that I may better be suited as a forum moderator as I have past experience in the position. A few days later I asked for privileges to process reports as a Keeper. I got to work immediately and completed a backlog of reports to assist the current staff. After about a month (24 hours ago) I was given in-game powers to better handle the situation on the in-game trolls.

Now, that's enough about myself. My decision to remove some of your posts was thoroughly discussed with the other staff members in an attempt to clean General Discussion. Frog made a great point when he explained that he would be embarrassed if someone walked past his computer, and saw the content being posted to the front of our website. You're still welcome to post freely in the General Discussion forum, but please make an attempt to limit the spam, and personal insults as it negatively affects the community as a whole.

Thank you.

[Damus_Graves]

Coast had become a Keeper long before he was ever considered to be a mod. From what little I have seen of the reports section, because I never want to go back into that abyss again, he preformed very exceptionally and was on the fast track of being considered a mod of a forum. Since he became a mod I was still the main guy on General Discussion and he didn't have much room to show any insight in how he moderates. Since I have been moved to Wise Men I considered Coast a more viable replacement than Glip due to how active they are on the forums respectfully. So far I have not had any problems with Coast's moderation, save for the regular bumps in the road all mods have had to go through with learning the moderation tools and infractions over warnings. We all remember when I had major problems learning when to use one over the other.

I would say that Coasts track record is adequate to his status as a mod.

[Helz]

Coast did countless hours of work to get where he is. I step on peoples toes all the time and have no problem telling them when I have an issue with them. Refer to the messages I have already sent you and if you want a much more in-depth answer on what I think about this situation just let me know.

[creedkingsx]

<3 Bruno

[Apocist]

If anything, Apo thinks people complain too much about when others become mods, or that there is too much power being distributed through-out this now small community. That kind of mind set is only making it seem like the current members WANT there to be an elitist society, only wanting a select few that can help achieve order in an easily chaotic forum.

If someone does a job and does it well, why are there complaints?

[AppleyNO]

Since people can't take criticism if asked in an informal manner,I appeal to all with a valid opinion:

Has the moderator role grown pointless (aside from giving you powers)

Plenty have worked for their roles in staff, in fact in recent memory all staff earned their role. Now, because he had a map some staff member enjoyed, Coast is promoted to moderator. Unlike all staff, not only did he not earn this role, but I can't think of anything he's done to earn anybody's respect other than having the ability to infract.

This is mostly a question to active and past staff members, how do you feel about Coast becoming a mod for no reason, whereas you earned it.

He'll probably delete this since the truth hurts, but I'm legitimately interested. Not everyone can be okay with a random and previously inactive nobody becoming mod solely because he made a map, can they?


Discuss.

The only reason you take issue with Coast is because he deleted you trash threads. I think a discussion we need to have with you it your constant want to skirt the rules and force us to come up with even weirder wording and to take action. You had no issue with Coast before he deleted your threads.

Remember the rule against complaining about a Moderator and his official actions in GD :P

But you assert that the Moderator position has become "pointless". Had you asked this question without the rider "because Coast bought it", this thread would have been a million times better. We don't need three mods for a dead-ish section, but we need a place for Damus, and Glip is on and off in being here. If the moderators did things in General Discussion (or supported player things like Fragos's pokemon thing or your stock thing), perhaps we would be more alive. Without these things, General Discussion is already dead, with or without Moderators. So the question becomes, are moderators needed?

While General Discussion lays dormant, I feel like the answer is no.

[kyle1234513]

coast is fine where he is, he does work, and so far everything is going more smoothly than it was before, so im not seeing any problems here.
and as far as his moderating has been going, well he has not received any sort of punishment as far as i know, so it must be what the higher ups support. and quite frankly so do i.

[Apocist]

coast is fine where he is, he does work, and so far everything is going more smoothly than it was before, so im not seeing any problems here.
and as far as his moderating has been going, well he has not received any sort of punishment as far as i know, so it must be what the higher ups support. and quite frankly so do i.

Received any punishment, what do you mean?

[kyle1234513]

Received any punishment, what do you mean?

write up, stern talking to saying what you are doing is not ok, reversed actions, etc etc, to my knowledge nothing like that has occurred on any chat level that i have access to.

[Cryptonic]

tbh, we get like 1 thread a day in GD, I don't see why there needed to be 3 mods in GD ever.

edit: also, i'm pretty sure staff outnumbers active non-staff members lolol. Should be like a 1:10 ratio, not 5:4.

[Helz]

staff outnumbers active non-staff members lolol. Should be like a 1:10 ratio, not 5:4.

This is true and kind of funny. There are boat loads of forum staff with a dead forum and only a hand full of in-game staff who play a lot.

[Frog]

Long Live Coast! Long Live The Mods!

[Slaol]

This is true and kind of funny. There are boat loads of forum staff with a dead forum and only a hand full of in-game staff who play a lot.

Working on it

[Mateo]

The only reason you take issue with Coast is because he deleted you trash threads. I think a discussion we need to have with you it your constant want to skirt the rules and force us to come up with even weirder wording and to take action. You had no issue with Coast before he deleted your threads.

Remember the rule against complaining about a Moderator and his official actions in GD :P

But you assert that the Moderator position has become "pointless". Had you asked this question without the rider "because Coast bought it", this thread would have been a million times better. We don't need three mods for a dead-ish section, but we need a place for Damus, and Glip is on and off in being here. If the moderators did things in General Discussion (or supported player things like Fragos's pokemon thing or your stock thing), perhaps we would be more alive. Without these things, General Discussion is already dead, with or without Moderators. So the question becomes, are moderators needed?

While General Discussion lays dormant, I feel like the answer is no.

why does there have to be a forum or subforum for everyone with in game powers? in game powers are USELESS, BY THE TIME MODERATOR ACTION IS WARRANTED THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.

part of the reason so many ppl hate staff and think you are power hungry children is because you divide a small playerbase into smaller sections so every member of staff gets there own kingdom and no one steps on toes. then when someone doesnt do their job no one else has authority to do it. as long as there is a 'staff supervisor', the positions of head moderator and head keeper are just stupid titiles to make ppl feel like they are a special snowflakes.

SO A CALL GOES OUT. IF YOU TRULY WANT WATS BEST FOR THIS COMMUNITY, PROVE IT BY QUOTING THIS POST AND RELINQUISHING YOUR FORUMS. if not, it just confirms that you care more about your own power lust.

[Damus_Graves]

I don't actually have a forum anymore. I'm just an overseer nowadays. ;)

Edit: thus I have less power than I did before

[AppleyNO]

why does there have to be a forum or subforum for everyone with in game powers? in game powers are USELESS, BY THE TIME MODERATOR ACTION IS WARRANTED THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.

part of the reason so many ppl hate staff and think you are power hungry children is because you divide a small playerbase into smaller sections so every member of staff gets there own kingdom and no one steps on toes. then when someone doesnt do their job no one else has authority to do it. as long as there is a 'staff supervisor', the positions of head moderator and head keeper are just stupid titiles to make ppl feel like they are a special snowflakes.

SO A CALL GOES OUT. IF YOU TRULY WANT WATS BEST FOR THIS COMMUNITY, PROVE IT BY QUOTING THIS POST AND RELINQUISHING YOUR FORUMS. if not, it just confirms that you care more about your own power lust.

I don't moderate forums anymore. I stay in the Player Reports for the most part.

[Helz]

why does there have to be a forum or subforum for everyone with in game powers? in game powers are USELESS, BY THE TIME MODERATOR ACTION IS WARRANTED THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.

part of the reason so many ppl hate staff and think you are power hungry children is because you divide a small playerbase into smaller sections so every member of staff gets there own kingdom and no one steps on toes. then when someone doesnt do their job no one else has authority to do it. as long as there is a 'staff supervisor', the positions of head moderator and head keeper are just stupid titiles to make ppl feel like they are a special snowflakes.

SO A CALL GOES OUT. IF YOU TRULY WANT WATS BEST FOR THIS COMMUNITY, PROVE IT BY QUOTING THIS POST AND RELINQUISHING YOUR FORUMS. if not, it just confirms that you care more about your own power lust.

I really liked this post. It was direct and concise.

In game moderation-
I think the only issue with in game moderation is that there is not enough of it. I can give plenty of examples just from the past 3 days where I used it to prevent issues before they became a problem. On Saturday I followed necroplant from game to game kicking him before he could prefer a mafia role and ruin the game. In every game players expressed how happy they were to see something being done. There is a hand full of other players that are "Kick on sight" and when a mod is around the only trouble they can cause is lobby pending and making games have 14 players instead of 15. Once banks are global in game moderation will become extremely effective.



Forum shit-
I would not be opposed to giving up my forum mod after I am done cleaning the section up. Power is a service. Sure I have the ability to delete a thread but really all that means is there is one more thing I have to maintain. The only real instance where I see sectional moderation as an issue is in "Point Restores". I will get to that once I have bug reports wrapped up. I really do not see any section as a "kingdom" at all. When an infraction is posted all of the staff are able to talk about it. To be more specifically on topic when coast started deleting spam threads and enforcing standards he talked with a ton of staff about it. Brunos infraction had a ton of conversation surrounding it. If you do not want to take my word for it ask Orpz. I think you will trust his opinion to be unbiased if you think I play favorites.
The only real playerbase division I see is between the mod and the FM areas. And to be blunt that just makes sense. I would be a total moron to try to voice my opinion on anything regarding FM's because I am unable to play them. I have very little experience and I do not keep up with the player-politics that underline issues. And on that same note I am sure there is plenty of FM players that do not keep up with the mod community. Areas of focus allow more effective moderation as well as consistent standards. If there are only 2 or 3 people that manage a section correctly its pretty clear what is and is not ok. If you have the entire staff jumping at issues at random who the fuck knows what is acceptable behavior because that judgement differs from person to person.

Staff superiors are necessary to settle differences. If Gyver and myself had a diffrence of judgment that we could not resolve that superior would have to step into play and say "This is whats going to happen". This kind of decision structure exists in every organisation from silly video games to international politics because it is what works.


All in all I wish there was a way to change your outlook on staff power. If you could throw out a more specific instance of areas where things come to a stop when they could be resolved by another staff maybe something can change. I don't want you to feel that this is an argument and I am saying "You are wrong, Everything is perfect". This is just the way I see the current forum structure and if something specifically could be done to get make things better I will get behind it.

[Apocist]

Is this why you are now hiding your name color?

[oops_ur_dead]

edit: also, i'm pretty sure staff outnumbers active non-staff members lolol. Should be like a 1:10 ratio, not 5:4.

Let's put this to the test!

I gathered a list of the most active users, where I decided "active" means making at least 30 posts in the last month, i.e. one post per day. I took out FM accounts for obvious reasons. That left us with 24 active users. Then I looked at which users were staff and which weren't, and tallied up the amounts. I had three groups of staff: mods and above, keepers (of which there were 3), and semi-staff (Yayap and myself). If we consider all four groups, then we're sitting at 14 of the 24 being staff. Of course, not considering semi-staff, that number is 12, and not considering keepers, that number is 9. All of the top 5 posters were staff (mod and above), and 8 of the top 10 posters were staff (mod and above). Then I looked at how many posts the staff made compared to non-staff active members. These top 24 posters made, all in all, 2015 posts in the last 30 days. Of these, 55.73% were made by mod and above staff, keepers made 8.089%, and semi-staff made 4.218%, for a combined total of 68.04% by all three groups.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Orpz]

why does there have to be a forum or subforum for everyone with in game powers? in game powers are USELESS, BY THE TIME MODERATOR ACTION IS WARRANTED THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.

part of the reason so many ppl hate staff and think you are power hungry children is because you divide a small playerbase into smaller sections so every member of staff gets there own kingdom and no one steps on toes. then when someone doesnt do their job no one else has authority to do it. as long as there is a 'staff supervisor', the positions of head moderator and head keeper are just stupid titiles to make ppl feel like they are a special snowflakes.

SO A CALL GOES OUT. IF YOU TRULY WANT WATS BEST FOR THIS COMMUNITY, PROVE IT BY QUOTING THIS POST AND RELINQUISHING YOUR FORUMS. if not, it just confirms that you care more about your own power lust.

/Salute

I relinquish my forums....after about half a year of not doing anything and not being fired

[Helz]

Nah. I just was not really feeling the green and I have been yellow my entire time on the forum so I thought I would give white a shot. A few more user groups and I will be able to turn myself into a rainbow.


On a side note my conclusions from those numbers is that we need to draw more members to the forum.

[Admiral]

As someone who is permanently banned from the game for a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶ ̶i̶t̶ ^{being a motherfucking Robin Hood}, some of the "staff" are not... choice picks...

Given the pool of candidates though, what can you really do?

[Slaol]

-3 Keepers

[Mateo]

an example was when damus was mafia discussion mod and would hand out infractions for anything he possibly could in a pathetic attempt to show his e-peener.


lets break it down for everyone:

Dark.Revenant

the 'high council'

the forum mods

and the user base

[Apocist]

Theres a chain of people hiding teh green names

[Gerik]

To be completely fair, it would be better to conduct this test during a month in which there was not a large FM going on. These forums do have a tendency to die during FMs since everyone is always on their anon accounts focused on the game. Once the FM ends there will probably be more activity by non-staff. That's not to say that this isn't still an issue, but it's probably not as big a deal as the numbers indicate.

[fred]

There is actually truth in what Bruno said. (The post in which he was banned for which has since been removed).

[oops_ur_dead]

Yeah that was a good post. I'd like to clear up one thing though, staff aren't responsible for 70% of all posts, just posts made by "active" members. If we look at all posts, which is seriously skewed because it looks at FM players and the like, mods make up about 25% of all posts. Which is still a huge number considering the sheer amount of posts made in FMs.

[Brendan]

I'm not an "active" member anymore because I have acquired more of a social life, and quite frankly this forum is boring now. I tend to check in everyday, browse a few new threads and then close my tab. I feel as if I joined at a time where the website was at it's peak. We had staff that I liked for the most part and now I feel like most of the staff here are way too serious and need to loosen up or that they shouldn't have been promoted in the first place.
On topic, Bruno is obviously mad about being infracted, a case in point: while I was briefly a moderator, I believe I infracted him and the same deal happened. I like Coast.