Day 2

[FM Kelso]

There are currently 7 users browsing this thread.

go vote cohen^^

I won't vote cohen, even if the current events show that he MAY be scum, there's still a big possibility that's he's town. (Regarding how he played so far)

Again, maybe he meant to play like that to appear town but that's not what happenned IMO.

[FM Cafarelli]

mhm let me think... n2 maybe? y u all no read

and i know that cohen rather looks like a townie and you all must have the feeling that he's town, but we have to trust in EVIDENCE and not in FEELINGS

[FM Parker]

@Cafarelli, no. How about you check post 796?

@Lichtmann, she claims Black was the investigated target on n1 and that rose was her target n2. I don't buy this either. Both were equally lurky. Hosts threatened replacements/modkills. Cafa's still investigating lurkers. I don't see why a real invest who targets lurkers wouldn't hit Black again.

[FM Cafarelli]

how about you get your facts straight? rose posted 5 times, was not at all about to be replaced and the posts looked especially scummy

[FM Lichtmann]

mhm let me think... n2 maybe? y u all no read

and i know that cohen rather looks like a townie and you all must have the feeling that he's town, but we have to trust in EVIDENCE and not in FEELINGS

How about this give us reasoning why you think rose is a delta and not anything else in the pairing.

[FM Cafarelli]

i said it's likely. because there are about 10 citizens

[FM Mendez]

you suspect monroe but still sheep his FoS based on nothing else than an assumption?
and why they didn't drug me again is clear - they didn't think i am a PR after that

1)Until we have reliable sources, we have to go off assumptions. I suspect him more than you. You are at l-15 with 10 hours left. Unless some new information comes up, I plan on keeping my vote on him.
2) And then you revealed it? This would have been good if you had not revealed longer. You could've checked Cohen instead of Rose without putting so much attention on yourself.

Your evidence is that you were prevented feedback, which means he must not have received a poison. Correct?
What about the possibilty of a 2nd drug dealer?

[FM Monroe]

Look, I don't know who read the role cards closely and who didn't. But consider this: if Colmyer/Morgan was blackmailed n1, why did neither of them pressure Lichtmann who was our main suspect of being blackmailed, they would know for sure that he wasn't. I personally think that either one of them or both is faking BMed today with spam to appear less likely to be mafia.

Maybe because they didn't suspect he was blackmailed, unlike some of you? I surely didn't. It was pretty clear to me that he was just messing around a little. It would be a very useless blackmail to begin with, because it didn't make Lichtmann look scummy and it didn't cause any confusion if you just stop and think for a moment what the mafia could possibly hope to accomplish with it. Kind of like a mayor reveal that's almost immediately proven false by the host.

The only bother his invisible ink caused is that players who hardly read anything skip over his posts by default. But guess what, even if you give a lot of insights those same people still often miss what you have been saying. So his invisible ink did squat.

Blackmailed people know if someone is faking blackmailed = I would have expected someone to interrogate Lichtmann yesterday. So either they were blackmailed n2, or both completely ignored Lichtmann.

Why waste time interrogating someone for using invisible ink (because he clearly wasn't blackmailed to anyone who stopped to think about it)? I guess it's a matter of opinion here. Maybe you thought it could've been the result of blackmail, but maybe the person who did get blackmailed didn't share that opinion and didn't see the need to inquire about it.

Do you think that making 2 people spam is that much more useful? It's irritating too, granted, it restricts what they can say for 1 day.

The fact that it restricts their input (invisible ink does not) is what makes it worthwhile. Note that the hosts are strict about what we can't do to fish for information from players who might be blackmailed. That the spam makes reading the day and looking for useful posts very tiring and that it might be distracting if we try to look for some sort of meaning hidden in their spam is just an added bonus.

[quote]So I might as well lay down some cards and add some more questions for Monroe, here is what I think of yesterday's roleblocks:

3 people claim roleblocked, 1 being Colmyer who asks to see PMs because of non standard. Up until that point, Galletta did not specify the wording in her PM. 6 minutes later, Monroe realizes that if Galletta screws up her claim, that gambit was screwd and posts a fairly open warning to mafia:

You mean the exact night feedback isn't in the Feedback Messages part of the setup thread? Well that's strange. I regret to inform you that the fake claim plan may not work, mafia. The host is trolling you.

It was only after that Galletta replied with some part of the wording of the pm, she could have easily copied Colmyer roleblock claim post for post style.

Hosts quickly banned the posting of feedback msgs shortly after this. Hinting to me that someone has something to hide.

A reasonable concern. I'd actually agree with your suspicion of this if anyone else had posted the same. However, the intention behind this post was twofold.

Firstly, I was mocking the mafia for WIFOM purposes (Do I want their attention? Do I want to keep them away from me?)

I was referring to an earlier post I made where I suspected that one of the roleblocked claims was probably drugging, because I thought that 3 actual roleblockers seemed unlikely. I used fake claim where I should have said fake feedback as a result of drugging.

Here's the post I referred to.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post317369

No, it's not wrong to do that. But we should keep in mind the possibility of drugging and blackmailing leading to false feedback claims. There have been 3 block claims so far and it seems likely to me that at least one could be fake.

But roleblocks seem like one of the least useful things to fake. So if the mafia is just absolutely terrible it's understandable that they faked a roleblock. Unless they want everyone to waste time hunting for missing claims on the coming days or something and then fake an escort claim to mislynch somebody I just can't put a finger on why they would do such a thing.

I'm not trying to give hints to the mafia here, honest. Just warning you of the scummy ideas they might have been playing with in last night's chat.

An actual false claim from a mafia would have been really unwise to make at this early stage, because the risk it would be proven a lie somewhere down the road is immense and it could result in players searching for connections too. The only instance in which I could see a mafia using a false feedback claim to their advantage is if they had an interceptor. But there is no evidence of this thus far.

I should add that I believe that (serious) false claims that are not usable to gain a position of trust or cast suspicion on someone else are more productive for town and some types of neutrals than they are for mafia.

They can be used as a trap or as bait, but they don't have an immediate impact on the course of events for the day. And there are no connections to be worried about. Roleblocked, bus driven or attacked and healed feedback are among the feedbacks that can be false claimed for pro-town reasons, provided that it's done in moderation, the timing is wise and non-disruptive and provided you know when to get back on a claim before it can do any true harm.


Secondly, I hate it when hosts divert from the rules that are described in their own setup, no matter who it affects. So I was also criticizing Rocshi.

[FM Cafarelli]

i also noticed that colmyer seems to repeat he needs a doctor, what does he mean by that

to 1) this evidence IS reliable
to 2) there were no good leads (monroe is also not the best lead) and i didn't want to waste a night action and a lynch when i had all the evidence ready

and no, there a not 2 drug dealers screw this idea now pls

[FM Monroe]

@Cafarelli, no. How about you check post 796?

@Lichtmann, she claims Black was the investigated target on n1 and that rose was her target n2. I don't buy this either. Both were equally lurky. Hosts threatened replacements/modkills. Cafa's still investigating lurkers. I don't see why a real invest who targets lurkers wouldn't hit Black again.

Please remember the fact that night 1 actions were random. It would be impossible to know Black was AFK on day 1 before day 1 even started. Investigating Rose the second night actually does make sense to me. Not from a consig's perspective, but definitely from a town (scummy?) or savage (lurkcit that won't die for a long time, possible recruit) perspective.

[FM Monroe]

I see I messed up one of Cohen's quotes.

So I might as well lay down some cards and add some more questions for Monroe, here is what I think of yesterday's roleblocks:

3 people claim roleblocked, 1 being Colmyer who asks to see PMs because of non standard. Up until that point, Galletta did not specify the wording in her PM. 6 minutes later, Monroe realizes that if Galletta screws up her claim, that gambit was screwd and posts a fairly open warning to mafia:

You mean the exact night feedback isn't in the Feedback Messages part of the setup thread? Well that's strange. I regret to inform you that the fake claim plan may not work, mafia. The host is trolling you.

It was only after that Galletta replied with some part of the wording of the pm, she could have easily copied Colmyer roleblock claim post for post style.

Hosts quickly banned the posting of feedback msgs shortly after this. Hinting to me that someone has something to hide.

There you go.

[FM Cafarelli]

what did the host screw up?

[FM Monroe]

what did the host screw up?

He didn't send the Feedback Messages as they were listed in the setup thread. He sent something like "you had sexytimes" instead, or some such.

[FM Cafarelli]

ah yes that's long time ago already^^
best solution: write alternative solution in thread. better than banning to quote. i told the host -.-

[FM Cafarelli]

ah yes that's long time ago already^^
best solution: write alternative feedback in thread. better than banning to quote. i told the host -.-

fixed

[FM Parker]

Mendez, a second drug dealer is remote. I didn't want to accuse Cafarelli but I'm certain that either Cohen or Cafarelli is scum. Cafarelli is the more likely choice.

For their to be two dds, then either Colmyer/Morgan or Monroe is scum. For all three of them to be blackmailed/DDmailed, it requires two blackmailers and a drug dealer. This is because a DD who is faking a blackmail must send the same message as a blackmailer on their team.

We've semi-confirmed a kidnapper at this point. It's possible there are two bus drivers, but it's more likely a 1 and one scenario.

---

@Cafarello, Do you really think I want to attack a "outed invest" this hard? Feelings would suggest that the guy who claims a town PR is more likely town.

Yet, I cannot see why the mafia would possibly waste a drug dealer's feedback to send as no feedback to someone.

---

@Cafarelli, this I agree on. A doctor on Colmyer would not be a waste.

---

Yes, Black was random. Yet, Black was equally scummy with Rose based on lurkiness. Rose suggested there was a kidnapper. Also, if Cafarelli thought Rose was scummy based on her posts on day 1, wouldn't it be logical to at least highly suspect Rose is the Godfather? Yet, Cafarelli is claiming Rose is the delta.

[FM Monroe]

Yes, Black was random. Yet, Black was equally scummy with Rose based on lurkiness. Rose suggested there was a kidnapper. Also, if Cafarelli thought Rose was scummy based on her posts on day 1, wouldn't it be logical to at least highly suspect Rose is the Godfather? Yet, Cafarelli is claiming Rose is the delta.

Considering just how many delta's there are, it is more likely that Rose is a delta and not Godfather. But that doesn't mean it's not worth looking into the possibility that she could be the Godfather instead.

Where exactly did Cafarelli say she is delta?

[FM Cafarelli]

accoring to probabilities he is a delta. lurking delta's are seen often too. i always follow probabilities (and not feelings...)
i will watch him further, which might increase the probability that he's gf. but for now i'd like all attention to the confirmed scum
btw i think it's suspicious that he didn't confirm his pairing. makes him look like he's indeed gf

no your feelings say that you like cohen and thus he's town. i know it because i like him too, problem is only that i know he's not town
that i claimed invest is a fact. so facts say i'm more likely town if it is indeed the case that claimers are most likely town

I'm certain that either Cohen or Cafarelli is scum.

this is correct

Cafarelli is the more likely choice.

this is incorrect. nor am i more likely nor am i actually the scum

and i've already explained the usefulness of this drug. i dont know why you cant see it

[FM Parker]

Answer: The allegation the mafia got lucky, even according to your scenario, is not evidence it was a smart play.


Supposing 36 roles, about half will truthfully have no feedback no investigation/bussing/roleblock/whatever results because of citizens and the like. Given those odds, I find it unlikely the mafia visited you to drug you unless they were hiding some other visit to you. I'm not finding room for such a role in the setup.

The math seems to be pretty clear as to why the mafia wouldn't use a blank feedback night 1.

So if I'm so dumb and fail to read, perhaps you need to hold my hand oh wise intelligent scummy one.

[FM Donnelly]

accoring to probabilities he is a delta. lurking delta's are seen often too. i always follow probabilities (and not feelings...)
i will watch him further, which might increase the probability that he's gf. but for now i'd like all attention to the confirmed scum
btw i think it's suspicious that he didn't confirm his pairing. makes him look like he's indeed gf

no your feelings say that you like cohen and thus he's town. i know it because i like him too, problem is only that i know he's not town
that i claimed invest is a fact. so facts say i'm more likely town if it is indeed the case that claimers are most likely town


this is correct

this is incorrect. nor am i more likely nor am i actually the scum

and i've already explained the usefulness of this drug. i dont know why you cant see it

The problem is that, in this setup, claiming invest doesn't mean you're town. You still could be a consigliere or a savage investigator. And the worst part is that even if you're not currently a savage, they probably will try to recruit you at the first opportunity.

What I suggest is that both the mason enforcer and the mason clubber (I think we have both) use soma tonight and choose cafarelli as one of their targets. If he lives to see day 3, then he is most likely town (though he could still be consig). If not, then we've killed a scum. Win/win.

[FM Mendez]

Mendez, a second drug dealer is remote. I didn't want to accuse Cafarelli but I'm certain that either Cohen or Cafarelli is scum. Cafarelli is the more likely choice.

For their to be two dds, then either Colmyer/Morgan or Monroe is scum. For all three of them to be blackmailed/DDmailed, it requires two blackmailers and a drug dealer. This is because a DD who is faking a blackmail must send the same message as a blackmailer on their team.

We've semi-confirmed a kidnapper at this point. It's possible there are two bus drivers, but it's more likely a 1 and one scenario.

I agree with the kidnapper and there has to be at least 1 blackmailer and 1 drug dealer.
What do you thin the extra roles ar ethen?

They have to be
consig
consort
2nd blackmailer
2nd dd
Franer
Disguiser/Graverobber are posible. I just doubt it.
Poisoner is not possible unless they targeted a lurker.
I think its safe to say - Mafia Architecht, Janitor and Interceptor are not possible.

[FM Parker]

Night 01

Godfather kills.
Kidnapper busses Anonymous with Morgan.
Blackmailer blackmails Morgan to keep quiet.
Blackmailer blackmails Colmyer to claim roleblocked (hence the extra roleblocked between day 1 and day 2)
Drug Dealer visits Cohen and lies to him about him being poisoned.
Consigliere gathers information.

-------

Night 1

GF kills.
Kidnapper busses Morgan or Colmyer. Unknown. Due to Dunn's claim we have four claimed as a bus driver. Considering I don't know any of those are scum, I crossed this off.
Blackmailer blackmails Morgan or Colmyer again.
DD handles the other with the same message (as required by the rule cards).
Blackmailer blackmails Monroe to claim Mayor. After all, he cannot admit blackmailed.
Consigliere investigates.

----

If we lynch the wrong target, mafia roles don't get confirmed.

Unfortunately, if my list is accurate... then Cafarelli is lying.

---

I copied post 621 (my original notes) and modified them to reflect Dunn's claiming. Those reflect the roles I think exist.

I agree, poisioner is remote unless they targeted a lurker. That would raise the possibility of both Cohen and Carafelli being town. Yet, I cannot see why the mafia would waste two KPN on a lurker. There is a very remote possibility that Colmyer/Morgan is poisoned AND blackmailed, which would mean Monroe wasn't. I find it more likely that Monroe was blackmailed because he seems to be a reasonable player forced to lie that his claim was a "joke".

I do think that the consort is faked. I'd believe there were two escorts/two bus drivers before I'd believe a consort. We should have three roleblocked claims. We do not. I believe this is why Colmyer is being blackmailed with jibberish.

I'd go one further and say Graverobber is unlikely. Given the MO of this mafia to cause role chaos, an Architect appearing suddenly would do that. Yet, the graverobber didn't trigger the most obvious choice. If there is a Graverobber, we have a coroner. Autopsies come before Graverobbing.

Disguiser/Framer, I don't see where there's room. I'd put the consort in before them.

[FM Cafarelli]

The problem is that, in this setup, claiming invest doesn't mean you're town. You still could be a consigliere or a savage investigator. And the worst part is that even if you're not currently a savage, they probably will try to recruit you at the first opportunity.

What I suggest is that both the mason enforcer and the mason clubber (I think we have both) use soma tonight and choose cafarelli as one of their targets. If he lives to see day 3, then he is most likely town (though he could still be consig). If not, then we've killed a scum. Win/win.

it's not win/win because you're wasting a day
the savages might come to me which i dont want, i already demanded mason enforcer. but i don't really see why they would want to recruit me. they can aswell recruit a citizen as invest if they want one, without the risk of running into an enforcer. in this setup the savages are not going for PRs. though they'll still want me once i'm confirmed
and once you lynch cohen you'll see anyway that i'm not consig/savage. thats the true win/win, lynch a scum and get a confirmed townie. and from your perspective if i'm wrong you found me as scum.

cohen did even refuse to roleclaim after i brought up evidence and there were multiple votes on him. i dont see where all your trust in him comes from

[FM Parker]

it's not win/win because you're wasting a day
the savages might come to me which i dont want, i already demanded mason enforcer. but i don't really see why they would want to recruit me. they can aswell recruit a citizen as invest if they want one, without the risk of running into an enforcer. in this setup the savages are not going for PRs. though they'll still want me once i'm confirmed
and once you lynch cohen you'll see anyway that i'm not consig/savage. thats the true win/win, lynch a scum and get a confirmed townie. and from your perspective if i'm wrong you found me as scum.

cohen did even refuse to roleclaim after i brought up evidence and there were multiple votes on him. i dont see where all your trust in him comes from

I'd refuse to claim when scum is accusing me to. It depends on the person's play style and the role they have.

Also, confirming you are not a current savage is an excellent use of soma IMO. I like Donnelly's plan and I hope the mason's do it.

-----------

Even if Cohen is scum (which I do not believe), that does not rule you out as a savage investigator... only that you're not mafia.

[FM Galloway]

I've got a second to come and make some comments here.

Caf claimed Inves
N1 Caf claimed to have feedback prevented on him.
N2 he checked Cohen and got scum feedback pairing

The moment we pressure Rose he comes on a hard defends her saying he got delta read on Rose n1 with his feedback.
What the [bleep] is this [bleep]?! Someone call this fool out on his illogical thoughts. This looks so far to be a classical scum defending scum with white lies. Am I wrong? Respond logically if I am.


Additionally for Parker
I think im getting at what your suggesting.
I'd just like to say again that while its understandable that mafia would want to make the rolelist as confusing as possible the lack of follow up makes it unlikely that they attempted what you suggested in the first place. However Im granting a couple of your suggestions here based on who has opposed them and the illogicalnessness of their posts. The fact that you are so steady here makes me a little more breath easy about that alignment. Just for today however you aint clear yet ;)

Anyone else have trouble swallowing what Belk is suggesting? 2 DDs is highly improbable. Its possible but that auto assumes that both
Morgan and Coly are town and auto assumes that they both are BM'd and auto assumes that both of them didn't have the foresight to drag out BM's longer to reduce mafia potentialnessness if they were Bm'd.

[FM Mendez]

I agree with the kidnapper and there has to be at least 1 blackmailer and 1 drug dealer.
What do you think the extra roles are then?

They have to be
consig
consort
2nd blackmailer
2nd dd
Framer
Disguiser/Graverobber are posible. I just doubt it.
Poisoner is not possible unless they targeted a lurker.
I think its safe to say - Mafia Architecht, Janitor and Interceptor are not possible.

Typos fixed.

Parker, your point with the Graverobber is good. A coroner would always get the body before the grave robber, thus making him useless until Savages / *Neutral Evil start killing. *If there is neutral kliller.

[FM Galloway]

Second half of this final is coming to me. Later everyone

[FM Donnelly]

it's not win/win because you're wasting a day
the savages might come to me which i dont want, i already demanded mason enforcer. but i don't really see why they would want to recruit me. they can aswell recruit a citizen as invest if they want one, without the risk of running into an enforcer. in this setup the savages are not going for PRs. though they'll still want me once i'm confirmed
and once you lynch cohen you'll see anyway that i'm not consig/savage. thats the true win/win, lynch a scum and get a confirmed townie. and from your perspective if i'm wrong you found me as scum.

cohen did even refuse to roleclaim after i brought up evidence and there were multiple votes on him. i dont see where all your trust in him comes from

They wouldn't be wasting anything. They received soma last night, and if they follow my plan, they will not only club/enforce you, but do the same to someone else as well. So we will learn something from what happens to you and the masons will learn from whoever else they target. The reason they would want to recruit you is because they already know you're investigator, so there is no guesswork involved. With anyone else, they have to first guess whether or not that person is a recruitable role, and then if they are, the savages have to decide if they should recruit it as a role in the hopes they will upgrade a delta, or if they should recruit as is and hope it's already an investigative PR. By recruiting you, they would remove the guesswork AND get an investigator which will help them a lot in future recruits.

[FM Monroe]

For their to be two dds, then either Colmyer/Morgan or Monroe is scum. For all three of them to be blackmailed/DDmailed, it requires two blackmailers and a drug dealer. This is because a DD who is faking a blackmail must send the same message as a blackmailer on their team.

WhywhywhyWHY?!?!

First off, I am clearly NOT blackmailed. I have not done anything that would benefit the mafia in any way. I could prove it but I have promised the host that I wouldn't.

And there don't need to be 2 blackmailers for Morgan and Colmyer to be blackmailed. We established this ages ago when I asked the host some questions to stop this silly idea from spreading.

2 drug dealers is far, far more likely than 2 blackmailers if you ask me because blackmailer is ridiculously powerful. And even 2 drug dealers is iffy.

2 drug dealers is the only somewhat plausible explanation for the scenario where both Cafarelli and Cohen are telling the truth.

I am considering it an option that there really are 2 escorts and a consort now that there were 3 roleblock claims again, and bus driver and kidnapper seem confirmed.

Here is what I think happened, with 1 blackmailer and 1 drug dealer:

Night 1:
Colmyer/Morgan is blackmailed
Cohen/Cafarelli is drugged (where Cohen's poison drugs make more sense to me)

Night 2:
Nobody new is blackmailed because Colmyer/Morgan waited to perform the task as any sensible player would.
Colmyer/Morgan is drugged to get the same blackmail task as the one from night 1

2 drug dealers adds a few more possible scenarios, but I'm really not sure which it would be:

Night 1:
Colmyer/Morgan is blackmailed
Cohen/Cafarelli is drugged (where Cohen's poison drugs make more sense to me)
Roleblock drugs

Night 2:
Nobody new is blackmailed because Colmyer/Morgan waited to perform the task as any sensible player would.
Colmyer/Morgan is drugged to get the same blackmail task as the one from night 1
Roleblock drugs

Night 1:
Colmyer/Morgan is blackmailed
Cohen is poison drugged
Cafarelli is no feedback drugged

Night 2:
Nobody new is blackmailed because Colmyer/Morgan waited to perform the task as any sensible player would.
Colmyer/Morgan is drugged to get the same blackmail task as the one from night 1, not sure why they wouldn't wait.
Someone is no feedback drugged?

Night 1:
Colmyer/Morgan is blackmailed
Colmyer/Morgan is blackmail drugged
Cohen/Cafarelli is drugged

Night 2:
Nobody new is blackmailed because Colmyer/Morgan waited to perform the task as any sensible player would.
2 unknown drugs

Oh, and another reason not to pressure Cohen is that even if he was lying about the poisoned feedback, I can't see him doing it as a mafia member because of the attention he has drawn to himself by not dying. Evil neutrals and savages have no motivation to falsely claim poisoned either. It only makes sense to do this as a jester. He does seem to be a capable enough player to play like a clever jester, if that's the role he got.

[FM Cafarelli]

I've got a second to come and make some comments here.

Caf claimed Inves
N1 Caf claimed to have feedback prevented on him.
N2 he checked Cohen and got scum feedback pairing

The moment we pressure Rose he comes on a hard defends her saying he got delta read on Rose n1 with his feedback.
What the [bleep] is this [bleep]?! Someone call this fool out on his illogical thoughts. This looks so far to be a classical scum defending scum with white lies. Am I wrong? Respond logically if I am.


Additionally for Parker
I think im getting at what your suggesting.
I'd just like to say again that while its understandable that mafia would want to make the rolelist as confusing as possible the lack of follow up makes it unlikely that they attempted what you suggested in the first place. However Im granting a couple of your suggestions here based on who has opposed them and the illogicalnessness of their posts. The fact that you are so steady here makes me a little more breath easy about that alignment. Just for today however you aint clear yet ;)

Anyone else have trouble swallowing what Belk is suggesting? 2 DDs is highly improbable. Its possible but that auto assumes that both
Morgan and Coly are town and auto assumes that they both are BM'd and auto assumes that both of them didn't have the foresight to drag out BM's longer to reduce mafia potentialnessness if they were Bm'd.

you no read well. i checked rose and not cohen. you seem a lot differently than yesterday. in last fm i would've said you're vented


and parker, yes it would also confirm that i'm not a savage. because i cant be savage invest from start so how would i know i was drugged

[FM Cafarelli]

They wouldn't be wasting anything. They received soma last night, and if they follow my plan, they will not only club/enforce you, but do the same to someone else as well. So we will learn something from what happens to you and the masons will learn from whoever else they target. The reason they would want to recruit you is because they already know you're investigator, so there is no guesswork involved. With anyone else, they have to first guess whether or not that person is a recruitable role, and then if they are, the savages have to decide if they should recruit it as a role in the hopes they will upgrade a delta, or if they should recruit as is and hope it's already an investigative PR. By recruiting you, they would remove the guesswork AND get an investigator which will help them a lot in future recruits.

oh come on how high is the chance they hit another gamma? and compared to that, how high is the chance an enforcer will permanently visit me once i am confirmed

[FM Donnelly]

oh come on how high is the chance they hit another gamma? and compared to that, how high is the chance an enforcer will permanently visit me once i am confirmed

Your opposition to this plan increases both my suspicion of you and my certainty that the masons should do it.

[FM Parker]

@Cafarelli, this is a dumb way both you and Cohen can be innocent. Did you get your PM off one hour before the "day" started? If not, your action would have been forfeit and you would have had missing feedback.

@Monroe, I do understand your frustration but please understand that when you claim that you were not blackmailed that I don't believe you. You don't appear to be the type to think claiming mayor is a good idea when not the mayor. I don't get it. Either, you are blackmailed or I'm at least a little bit suspicious.

---

@Thank you Galloway.

Also, Carafelli claimed to check Black (no response) and then Rose. She never claimed to have checked Cohen. Carafelli is CCing Cohen because of the multiple drug dealers required on day 1 in order for both their posts to be true.

[FM Parker]

Your opposition to this plan increases both my suspicion of you and my certainty that the masons should do it.

Agreed.

[FM Monroe]

Anyone else have trouble swallowing what Belk is suggesting? 2 DDs is highly improbable. Its possible but that auto assumes that both Morgan and Coly are town and auto assumes that they both are BM'd and auto assumes that both of them didn't have the foresight to drag out BM's longer to reduce mafia potentialnessness if they were Bm'd.

1. Not necessarily. Non-town players can still get blackmailed.
2. Yes
3. No. Quite the opposite. 2 DD's actually makes it possible that both Morgan and Coly were blackmailed & drugged day 1, and are acting out their tasks today, having postponed it for the first day.

Nobody showed any real signs of blackmailing on day 1, and nobody has confirmed that they completed any tasks yesterday. Therefore it's nonsensical to assume anything anyone did yesterday was the result of blackmailing, unless they were scum and didn't want to reveal that they were blackmailed.

[FM Monroe]

@Monroe, I do understand your frustration but please understand that when you claim that you were not blackmailed that I don't believe you. You don't appear to be the type to think claiming mayor is a good idea when not the mayor. I don't get it. Either, you are blackmailed or I'm at least a little bit suspicious.

It was a harmless joke. Lighten up!

[FM Phelps]

FM Cafarelli isn't a high priority target for the cult. They probably already got a delta recruited as an investigator last night or first night. Whatever

They just recruit their men as investigators until they got one.

The cult will surely not gun for active members who aren't really trusted in day. Also it's still questionable if Cafarelli isn't just a benign neutral /disguiser who thought "SHE" has enough momentum to get something done today.

I still miss a good lynch target for today. Especially thanks to that more than stupid day 1 Delta lynch...

[FM Parker]

@Monroe, it is perfectly logical to believe that the people who were blackmailed d1 did their claims day 1 and were then silenced by a blackmail/DD combination. The name of the game is role confusion.

I've always thought it's two blackmailers and a drug dealer, not two DDs. Given the apparent lack of a neutral killer, having such a "powerful" mafia makes sense. However, all mafia roles are powerful in their own right.

Monroe, I don't come with a lighten up switch. LOL

[FM Donnelly]

FM Cafarelli isn't a high priority target for the cult. They probably already got a delta recruited as an investigator last night or first night. Whatever

They just recruit their men as investigators until they got one.

The cult will surely not gun for active members who aren't really trusted in day. Also it's still questionable if Cafarelli isn't just a benign neutral /disguiser who thought "SHE" has enough momentum to get something done today.

I still miss a good lynch target for today. Especially thanks to that more than stupid day 1 Delta lynch...

They're not just going to "recruit as investigator" until they get one. That would be stupid because they might hit power roles and then they'd be stuck with a cult full of savages, which would be completely wasting their potential for gaining information.

Your opposition to the plan is noted. If Cafarelli flips savage, you're next on my list of suspects.

[FM Phelps]

Why would anyone with a sane mind do their blackmail task the next they when they got blackmailed? It's just plain retarded out of any situation possible.




FM Donelly: If they need more than 2 nights to recruit one delta as an investigator they will be no problem in FM 18 and fail miserably.

[FM Phelps]

Duh yeah right. Because savages will totaly buddy with each other.

[FM Parker]

Why would anyone with a sane mind do their blackmail task the next they when they got blackmailed? It's just plain retarded out of any situation possible.

I can say doing it on the official day 1 makes some sense. Then on day 2, you can confirm you were blackmailed and set the record straight. The group would then have accurate role information about a blackmailer. Holding off until day 2 means that you realistically cannot confirm the presence of a blackmailer to the group. Also, if your task is really hard, then the target might do it day 1.

[FM Phelps]

This is not the blackmailer from FM 10. where you were roleblocked over the blackmail duration. No this information is not worth the damage it causes to the day chat.

[FM Monroe]

@Monroe, it is perfectly logical to believe that the people who were blackmailed d1 did their claims day 1 and were then silenced by a blackmail/DD combination. The name of the game is role confusion.

It seems wasteful to me to use blackmail to stop someone from saying they were blackmailed unless suspicion was drawn onto them and the mafia wanted to extend it somehow. Nothing like that really happened yesterday if you ask me.

[FM Colmyer]

You'll be moved.

[FM Monroe]

They're not just going to "recruit as investigator" until they get one. That would be stupid because they might hit power roles and then they'd be stuck with a cult full of savages, which would be completely wasting their potential for gaining information.

Need I remind you that they can't recruit power roles? I don't see how they would be a cult full of savages. Once they converted a delta to become a savage investigator, they could try to convert a delta to become a savage lookout.

I have a feeling you still don't know how exactly savage conversion works, despite my "confusing" explanation yesterday. Pity.

FM Cafarelli isn't a high priority target for the cult. They probably already got a delta recruited as an investigator last night or first night. Whatever

They just recruit their men as investigators until they got one.

If the savages already have a savage investigator, they can still convert a legitimate investigator to become a second savage investigator. They just can't use the "convert as" option to turn some other role into an investigator. At least that's how I understand it. Still, they would probably want some other role and recruit someone who isn't likely to be protected if they already had an investigator.

[FM Colmyer]

Shall I show you?

[FM Donnelly]

Need I remind you that they can't recruit power roles? I don't see how they would be a cult full of savages. Once they converted a delta to become a savage investigator, they could try to convert a delta to become a savage lookout.

I have a feeling you still don't know how exactly savage conversion works, despite my "confusing" explanation yesterday. Pity.

Your explanation was not confusing, just incorrect. Before you talk down to me, maybe you should make sure you know what you're talking about first. The savages can recruit gammas, epsilons, and deltas. Gammas are investigative POWER ROLES, epsilons are benigns, and deltas are citizens. Oh would you look at that. They CAN recruit power roles.

They can "recruit as _____". If they do this to a delta, the delta will become the savage aligned version of whatever role was specified in the "_____"

But if they perform the "-recruit as _____" on a gamma (POWER ROLE), then the gamma will LOSE it's night abilities and become a savage (vanilla cultist or 'mafioso of the savages', if you will).

So they're not going to just randomly "recruit as ____" because they run the risk of hitting RECRUITABLE POWER ROLES and turning them into savages.

[FM Parker]

@Donnelly, you seem to be quite logical regarding your actions and the cult. Why are you voting Monroe? What is your take on him being blackmailed but not being able to say so?

[FM Monroe]

Your explanation was not confusing, just incorrect. Before you talk down to me, maybe you should make sure you know what you're talking about first. The savages can recruit gammas, epsilons, and deltas. Gammas are investigative POWER ROLES, epsilons are benigns, and deltas are citizens. Oh would you look at that. They CAN recruit power roles.

They can "recruit as _____". If they do this to a delta, the delta will become the savage aligned version of whatever role was specified in the "_____"

But if they perform the "-recruit as _____" on a gamma (POWER ROLE), then the gamma will LOSE it's night abilities and become a savage (vanilla cultist or 'mafioso of the savages', if you will).

So they're not going to just randomly "recruit as ____" because they run the risk of hitting RECRUITABLE POWER ROLES and turning them into savages.

There's probably about 3-4 gamma's in the entire game and one is dead already. Add the epsilons and you're at 4-5 out of 30 or so players. While there's probably still more than 10 deltas alive. It's hardly a risk for them to become "full of powerless savages," it's way more likely they'll convert deltas into power roles. If they would randomly recruit people without using the "recruit as" option, that's when they would end up being full of savages.