American Exceptionalism

[Lysergic]

Depending on the poll results, this will be the basis for a future discussion. However, for now, I'm interested in seeing people's opinions on the concept of American exceptionalism - the idea that the United States is the "greatest nation in the world" or perhaps more hyperbolically "the greatest nation ever."

I'm saving my opinion of this for the potential future discussion for now; I'd just like to gauge the responses of the rest of the site first.

If you do agree with the idea that the United States is superior to other nations, unequivocally, I would ask two questions:

1) Why?

and...

2) Does this exceptionalism give the US license to do things that other countries shouldn't do?

[creedkingsx]

We are not above others.
Like at all.

[louiswill]

It is not about Above. It is not superior, but greatest.

America has done other big countries could not.
America has its own distinct advantages.

Since not many countries is like America, and none countries in those few are beyond America,

America is the greatest country in its own direction.

----besides that, none countries survived slavery, but the second republic of United States did. I think it is relevant but it is not the evidence support my argument.

[Ash]

It is not about Above. It is not superior, but greatest.

America has done other big countries could not.
America has its own distinct advantages.

Since not many countries is like America, and none countries in those few are beyond America,

America is the greatest country in its own direction.

----besides that, none countries survived slavery, but the second republic of United States did. I think it is relevant but it is not the evidence support my argument.

Usa*

U.S has done decent things and is the world power for a reason. So I say, yes.

[Lysergic]

----besides that, none countries survived slavery, but the second republic of United States did. I think it is relevant but it is not the evidence support my argument.

Wait, do you mean that we ended slavery before others?

Because that's patently false; we were the last Western power to end the practice of slavery. Literally the last.

Also, I asked for why (Admiral).

[creedkingsx]

Wait, do you mean that we ended slavery before others?

Because that's patently false; we were the last Western power to end the practice of slavery. Literally the last.

Also, I asked for why (Admiral).

Mississippi just abolished slavery completely yesterday.
Hilarious, if you ask me.
The last state to finally do so, Kentuncky being the last second to last in 1976.

[Voss]

Mississippi just abolished slavery completely yesterday.
Hilarious, if you ask me.
The last state to finally do so, Kentuncky being the last second to last in 1976.

that wasn't serious. it was a clerical error.

[creedkingsx]

that wasn't serious. it was a clerical error.

More oversight, imo.

[Admiral]

You can pretend all you like... but we are the greatest nation of at least modern time.

[Damus_Graves]

The question is:
"Is the United States the greatest country in the World/History."

Since the question includes the word "History" that opens discussion for empires that have been lost to time.
And in my opinion, going through history, I would have to say that I find the greatest country in the world/history to be Mongolian Empire, lead by Genghis Kahn.

[Cryptonic]

The question is:
"Is the United States the greatest country in the World/History."

Since the question includes the word "History" that opens discussion for empires that have been lost to time.
And in my opinion, going through history, I would have to say that I find the greatest country in the world/history to be Mongolian Empire, lead by Genghis Kahn.

I have to agree. He had the biggest empire in the world, and has 16 million descendants living today? 800 years from now there will be like 40 Obama's.

[Slaol]

We are probably the most dominant in the modern era. As oops said, even if we aren't the perfect place to live, we hold probably the greatest overall power. Power which no older empire could have imagined. I don't like the use of a 'Yes', 'No' poll because it is definitely going to end in a No, since there are enough reasons for people to pick Rome, The Mongols, Persia, England, etc. but if you chopped the poll up into each county/empire that dominated it's era I think the US would take a lot more votes. I think that because we happen to live in the time of the USA, so a lot of our opinions will be adjusted to show a better understanding of our effect, and a lesser appreciation for what came before us. Some will say we are not, but even they are speaking without being able to look back on America from 1,500 years from now and really scale what it is that is going on. We can view a full effect of older nations, but not hold a proper personal appreciation for them. Where as we can hold an 'educated' appreciation for what modern nations are doing, but have no history books to look back on the ruins of America and see which pieces of it's ingenuity survived and crafted the years to come. I just don't believe you can properly compare America to the dead empires of past, our styles of information to analyze are so different.

I am voting Yes. Yes that we are the greatest nation in the World (i.e. Current), but I don't think it works to look back.
Lysergic wants a why: People talk about freedom, lol. It is power and attention. We hold an incredible deal of power, that even if we are not as stellar as we were 40 years ago (as Appley's video effectively makes one feel thefeels and remember) the world still focuses on us quite a deal. Whether it is military actions, political changes, or things as meaningless as Music/Movies/Celebrates. Simply, across the board, we are at the center of what goes on in the world. Only time will tell if the meaningful things that we did decades ago will effect the landscape of society in ages to come, but for now we are the epicenter of the world. That is the only way I think to gauge it.

Also -

I have to agree. He had the biggest empire in the world, and has 16 million descendants living today? 800 years from now there will be like 40 Obama's.

2nd biggest. Great Britain was bigger, just not in one piece. But yes, Ghengis is like his era's Slaol.

[Gingerape]

Name one thing the U.S. hasn't invented.
You can't.

[ika]

Name one thing the U.S. hasn't invented.
You can't.

fireworks were first made by the ciniese, Nintendo was founded in japan, railroads were used in eruope first.

[Damus_Graves]

fireworks were first made by the ciniese, Nintendo was founded in japan, railroads were used in eruope first.

Swords. Arrows. Bows. Gunpowder. Guns. Shields. Hammers. Blacksmithing. Flags. Ships. Culture. Psychoanalysis.

[Cryptonic]

Name one thing the U.S. hasn't invented.
You can't.

like 7489013748091374198032471324 inventions created before North America was even thought to exist.

Swords. Arrows. Bows. Gunpowder. Guns. Shields. Hammers. Blacksmithing. Flags. Ships. Culture. Psychoanalysis.

glass, windows, houses, pots, bowl, forks, knives, spoons, plates, clothing, shovels, axes, rope, jewelry, makeup.

[Espozito]

Name one thing the U.S. hasn't invented.
You can't.

Pelmeni, lamp, waterfiller, caesar salad, theatre, music, roman "turtle" battle formation, kilts, ships, feather pens, pencils, hats, umbrellas, radio (but that depends, there were 2 inventors at the same time), radium, FIRST FLY IN SPACE!!!

I can agree that, no matter of short history, USA has made huge innovations in the world for so not much time, that is really admirable. But I can't say that it is the greatest nation in the world. Jeez, I can't call ANY of the countries that rank!

[louiswill]

Name one thing the U.S. hasn't invented.
You can't.

I feel a bit shame that we both voted yes....

lol sorry but everything the USA does internationally is in the interests of the USA. They won't step in unless it is their business. This is either Economical reasons, such as trade partners and resources, or Political Reasons, like setting up Pro-West Democracies in forgein countries.

That is not all true, if you came from a communism country like me, you would compare U.S. and U.S.S.R. first.

A true everything for itself country is U.S.S.R. ---I feel ashamed that communism were fused with limited nationalism in that country..

Then again, has U.S. actually earned any economical advantage from all those wars after U.S.S.R failed? Aren't we becoming poorer and poorer?

However,

Earlier, why did U.S. step into WW2 right after depression?

For itself, yes, but for the world also.

After AB Lincoln, the population which lives for righteousness, civil rights and democracy is increasing.

They are now majority of American. Thus, the foreign policy is justified as long as those people support it.

[Jim]

I think what Ginger is trying to say is that since The United States was founded we have been a trailblazer in innovation.

[Admiral]

Fine, if I have to somehow actually defend my position...

We have the greatest and most well trained military in the world... which when it really comes down to the wire, it matter not how much pottery you made or free medicine you gave out you will be destroyed or colonized and cease to exist as your own nation. We are only ever defeated by ourselves(ie: a war/campaign becoming unpopular so we end it).

Now for the fluff.

-We are the ones who are called to police the world. If we are not called on we usually do it anyways.
-We are an innovator or leader in almost every industry/service that actually matters. Making cheap knock-off Apple chargers does not count. Software developing however does.
-We can afford to do business with whoever we want out of the interest of growth and not necessity. Our abundance of space and resources allows us to do so.

And of course how can I forget to mention that were up to our eyeballs in debt... but who exactly is MAKING us pay that off? It's almost irrelevant.

[Damus_Graves]

If esp could merge his posts that would be great

[Lazers]

In terms of how shitty a nation is? The US is pretty low on the shitty scale (relatively)

In terms of greatness? Hardly. The American "Empire" is big but nothing compared to the various Chinese/Roman/Mongol empires (in terms of cultural influence). Even the British Empire was "greater". In addition, India and China also maintain sovereignty over many more people

[Jim]

In terms of how shitty a nation is? The US is pretty low on the shitty scale (relatively)

In terms of greatness? Hardly. The American "Empire" is big but nothing compared to the various Chinese/Roman/Mongol empires (in terms of cultural influence). Even the British Empire was "greater". In addition, India and China also maintain sovereignty over many more people

What ended the Chinese empires were the European imperialist' going to China and making spheres of influence. Guess what America made every European nation leave there and let China become independent again.

Without America's involvment in affairs that are not our business we would all be talking about how the Germany Empire or the Third Reich would be the greatest empire ever because both times they were going to defeat all of Europe if we didn't join in.

[Lazers]

What ended the Chinese empires were the European imperialist' going to China and making spheres of influence. Guess what America made every European nation leave there and let China become independent again.

Without America's involvment in affairs that are not our business we would all be talking about how the Germany Empire or the Third Reich would be the greatest empire ever because both times they were going to defeat all of Europe if we didn't join in.

The US did almost nothing in WWI but break a few stalemates and help allied pushes. The war was, more or less, not entirely in Germany's favor. They were being starved out by the UK's naval blockade, which was entirely the reason they sunk US ships in the first place. If the US hadn't joined, then the allies would've won by sheer attrition.

The Third Reich is debatable. The ruskies did most of the work against the nazis, but probably wouldn't of succeeded without the UK and US pushing into germany's western front and diverting needed troops there.

Also, the chinese empires were not ended by the europeans, but rather by internal issues which slowly crippled them, and whose weakness the europeans exploited

[zergling]

What ended the Chinese empires were the European imperialist' going to China and making spheres of influence. Guess what America made every European nation leave there and let China become independent again.

Without America's involvment in affairs that are not our business we would all be talking about how the Germany Empire or the Third Reich would be the greatest empire ever because both times they were going to defeat all of Europe if we didn't join in.

first time i think we joined in with a year left so i doubt we saved them lol

[creedkingsx]

first time i think we joined in with a year left so i doubt we saved them lol

America has been more of a catalyst in the big wars.

[oops_ur_dead]

tl;dr The United States (probably) holds the most power, but it isn't the best place to live.

[Cryptonic]

lol sorry but everything the USA does internationally is in the interests of the USA. They won't step in unless it is their business. This is either Economical reasons, such as trade partners and resources, or Political Reasons, like setting up Pro-West Democracies in forgein countries.

[creedkingsx]

lol sorry but everything the USA does internationally is in the interests of the USA. They won't step in unless it is their business.

To be fair, everything is our business.
Obviously.

[Cryptonic]

To be fair, everything is our business.
Obviously.

lool this is actually quite true.
The only reason why I don't want to see a NWO dominated by the USA is because they'll get even more pompous as a whole lolololol.

[Jim]

lol sorry but everything the USA does internationally is in the interests of the USA. They won't step in unless it is their business. This is either Economical reasons, such as trade partners and resources, or Political Reasons, like setting up Pro-West Democracies in forgein countries.

Ya but because of globalization our reach and influence is so far spread out we have business with every single country in the world. The only country we don't do business with is North Korea and even then we have sanctions against them so that is kinda like doing business.

[FrostByte]

Is the USA the greatest nation ever?
No.
41% of the collective military budget in the entire world is spent by the USA
And yet we're 24th in the world for average math literacy at 15 years old

That's just an example of how our priorities as a country are fucked.

[Crimson]

Sorry, but this idea ruins u.s foreign policy. So, it's best left unanswered.

[Nick]

US supplied UK and Soviet with resources before going to war with German.

[Gzz]

Well, I think that USA is like every other empire: it is great for its time, but who knows how the global situation will evolve.
After all, we are talking about a sunsetting empire: as every other sunsetting, they are spending lots of money for the military and they are trying to expand more without success, plus, their influence is decreasing, thus the "American Exceptionalist" is like every other nationalism claim: void and false.

[Admiral]

Well, I think that USA is like every other empire: it is great for its time, but who knows how the global situation will evolve.
After all, we are talking about a sunsetting empire: as every other sunsetting, they are spending lots of money for the military and they are trying to expand more without success, plus, their influence is decreasing, thus the "American Exceptionalist" is like every other nationalism claim: void and false.

It'll be void and false once it's disproven. As far as creating an empire like many of the contenders for greatest nation in history goes, we are not doing that. Not even close actually.

Is the USA the greatest nation ever?
No.
41% of the collective military budget in the entire world is spent by the USA
And yet we're 24th in the world for average math literacy at 15 years old

That's just an example of how our priorities as a country are fucked.

And how about at 18 years old? 15 years old is a meaningless statistic.

[Ash]

y do u guys compare USA to empires. empires are so like 1100 years ago. empires conquer. USA does not conquer.

[Lysergic]

y do u guys compare USA to empires. empires are so like 1100 years ago. empires conquer. USA does not conquer.

The U.S. has been conquering pretty blatantly for about the past decade (since 2001), and a little more subtly since after WW2.

Sorry, but this idea ruins u.s foreign policy. So, it's best left unanswered.

The idea of American exceptionalism enables current U.S. foreign policy; it certainly doesn't "ruin" it. xD

[louiswill]

The idea of American exceptionalism enables current U.S. foreign policy; it certainly doesn't "ruin" it. xD

Its practice is failing.

However, it is not the reason that the idea is wrong.

[Voss]

The U.S. has been conquering pretty blatantly for about the past decade (since 2001), and a little more subtly since after WW2.



The idea of American exceptionalism enables current U.S. foreign policy; it certainly doesn't "ruin" it. xD

i guess its an opinion if foreign conquest is a good thing for American exceptionalism. Foreign wars are imo bad, and degrading to the idea of America.

[AppleyNO]

[Ash]

lol i agree with the freedom part where he says other countries have freedom. but when was it ever the greatest country in the world if it isn't now? Who do you think is the better country?

[CmG]

Lol how could i miss that piece of art? How can u trolls even try to judge the greatness of anything if you probably never were somewhere else like in your own country. How pathetic can u be?

Banana anyone?

Why is that even is serious discussion?!

[zergling]

Lol how could i miss that piece of art? How can u trolls even try to judge the greatness of anything if you probably never were somewhere else like in your own country. How pathetic can u be?

Banana anyone?

Why is that even is serious discussion?!

Ive been to Germany, Puertorico, texas, georgia, kentucky, PA, michigan, MO and tons of other places for
U.S is not the best nub

[Cryptonic]

USA dropped an atomic bomb on innocent people, that's disgusting.
Can't be exceptional after that.

[creedkingsx]

USA dropped an atomic bomb on innocent people, that's disgusting.
Can't be exceptional after that.

Not that I am justifying it, but, to be fair, they dropped bombs on a bunch of innocent people too. :P

But, nevertheless, two wrongs do not make a right. :o

[Cryptonic]

Not that I am justifying it, but, to be fair, they dropped bombs on a bunch of innocent people too. :P

But, nevertheless, two wrongs do not make a right. :o

america bombed them back, and then atomic bomb
also, pearl harbor was a military base. most of the people were involved in the war.

also, atomic bomb > bomb lol it doesn't cause 4 different types of painful deaths, mutations, deformities, birth defects, sight loss, ect, ect, ect

Also:
Attack on pearl harbor: 2402 killed, 1247 wounded
Tokyo Fire Bombings: Approximately 16 square miles (41 km2) of the city were destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the resulting firestorm, more immediate deaths than either of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Zalgo]

america bombed them back, and then atomic bomb
also, pearl harbor was a military base. most of the people were involved in the war.

also, atomic bomb > bomb lol it doesn't cause 4 different types of painful deaths, mutations, deformities, birth defects, sight loss, ect, ect, ect

Also:
Attack on pearl harbor: 2402 killed, 1247 wounded
Tokyo Fire Bombings: Approximately 16 square miles (41 km2) of the city were destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the resulting firestorm, more immediate deaths than either of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

EXCEPT the bombings both fire and nuclear were not "eye for an eye" tactics.

Many many many more people would have died in a looonger conventional battle.


I'll do the justifying for creed.

[Cryptonic]

EXCEPT the bombings both fire and nuclear were not "eye for an eye" tactics.
Many many many more people would have died in a looonger conventional battle.
I'll do the justifying for creed.

nah, they dropped the bombs for science.

oh, and i think you meant "many many many more Americans would have died." It's obvious that you're just brainwashed by american goverment to be this proud. I'm gonna guess military?

[Jim]

USA dropped an atomic bomb on innocent people, that's disgusting.
Can't be exceptional after that.

I thought it was kinda trollzy of US to do it so I approve.

The Japanese are like Zerg before they get t2 units. Attack from above and it's gg.

The U.S. army is like the Terran Dominion cuz they are OP and the leadership always be nerfin' them.

Seriously though:
Overall i would say it was good.
This ended the war and stopped many more deaths on both sides.
We were firebombing the towns anyway so that was killing everyone, we just use this as a threat to end the war.
The Japanese had too much pride and would have never given up and let all their people die if this didn't happen.
Either way civilians were dying this just ended the war and made it a lot less deaths on both parts.

Also this bomb didn't even kill that many people.
The bomb only killed people within like a three mile radius from the blast.
The shock wave and air blast killed almost everyone, all their houses were made of wood and sticks so they just blew over and killed people, this wasnt accounted for i am guessing.

Don't blame the bomb blame the air.



Also have u played AC3, that is best game ever about America for America by America.