Hurricane Sandy last shout-outs!

[Cryptonic]

Maybe I just need to catch up with my Physics courses.

[Bunny]

Yes yes yes, I am not doubting that. I am not even arguing against global warming...

People need to start realising global warming and global cooling are natural phenomenon anyways, as are "greenhouse gases" - another term for any molecule that absorbs heat, which is, any gas molecule with a net dipole moment. What you guys want to argue is that global warming in the past 20 years or so are caused by human activity, and not from the natural cycle of Earth (anything other than human sources).

My guess is that 99% of people don't even know what their argument is about.

i would say more so in the last 200 hundred years more so than 20.

[Spy]

Maybe I just need to catch up with my Physics courses.

................................. I have a feeling that I am just wasting my time in this forum. Again... Bye bye

[Cryptonic]

I'm just saying, Methane is a greenhouse gas and has no net dipole.

[Cryptonic]

Greenhouse gases are those that can absorb and emit infrared radiation.[1] In order, the most abundant greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere are:

water vapor (H2O) - Dipole
carbon dioxide (CO2) - No net dipole
methane (CH4) - No net dipole
nitrous oxide (N2O) - Dipole
ozone (O3) - No net dipole

[Cryptonic]

................................. I have a feeling that I am just wasting my time in this forum. Again... Bye bye

Do you have to always be this arrogant and rude?

[Spy]

Yes they do. Methane molecules are not in a symmetrical state frozen in time...

[Cryptonic]

it's an sp3 carbon with 4 of the same atoms attached. It is not polar.
edit: can you explain "not in a symmetrical state frozen in time" please? I'm not really clear on this part.

[Spy]

Ok semantics... it has a net dipole moment when it is not symmetrical. Bonds vibrate like springs. 4 bonds in methane, and one of them stretches more than the rest, it will have a dipole moment as I believe H is more electropositive than C.

[Lysergic]

Greenhouse gases are those that can absorb and emit infrared radiation.[1] In order, the most abundant greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere are:

water vapor (H2O) - Dipole
carbon dioxide (CO2) - No net dipole
methane (CH4) - No net dipole
nitrous oxide (N2O) - Dipole
ozone (O3) - No net dipole

Atmospheric methane degrades into CO2 over time.

i would say more so in the last 200 hundred years more so than 20.

So... during the period where average global temperature measurements were being taken?

So you're comparing the period during which we have data about the atmosphere to the period during which we don't, and saying that temperature has dropped comparatively?

There is literally no way to definitively state that.

EDIT:
I'm still waiting for someone to bring up Antarctic ice thinning.

[Spy]

And seriously, I made a mistake somewhere in my argument, and I'd say shame on me. But, please just let me win, I can't stand losing, I'm really insecure, ok? Ok. Just ignore me.

[Spy]

Atmospheric methane degrades into CO2 over time.



So... during the period where average global temperature measurements were being taken?

So you're comparing the period during which we have data about the atmosphere to the period during which we don't, and saying that temperature has dropped comparatively?

There is literally no way to definitively state that.

EDIT:
I'm still waiting for someone to bring up Antarctic ice thinning.

No methane is a greenhouse gas. I just made a mistake in saying it has a net dipole moment. What I really wanted to say was it has a net change in dipole moment when it vibrates. I am just so tired. Please stop stop stop.

[Bunny]

Atmospheric methane degrades into CO2 over time.



So... during the period where average global temperature measurements were being taken?

So you're comparing the period during which we have data about the atmosphere to the period during which we don't, and saying that temperature has dropped comparatively?

There is literally no way to definitively state that.

EDIT:
I'm still waiting for someone to bring up Antarctic ice thinning.

im saying many glaciers in canada are simply gone and many a rapidly decreasing in size every year and you can;t just say its because its natural. Pollution gave me asthma and makes people sick / kills every year, i can only begin to imagine what it is doing to this earth.

also there is data about the environment from the 1800's

[Lysergic]

And seriously, I made a mistake somewhere in my argument, and I'd say shame on me. But, please just let me win, I can't stand losing, I'm really insecure, ok? Ok. Just ignore me.

A mistake in specifics doesn't necessarily mean a mistake in your general argument, which is:

One of the many reasons why people don't believe that global warming is primarily caused by human activity. People who just blurt out words without much meaning.

Glaciers retreat all the time, e.g. during the summer...

As far as I can understand, anyway.

@Plato: I know methane is a greenhouse gas. But the fact that it doesn't have dipole movement doesn't mean much when it degrades into CO2, which has net dipole movement. Also, I'm agreeing with you; stop telling me to stop. xD

[Cryptonic]

Lol CO2 is linear and no dipole
Lololol ok Spy, relax!! What you said didnt make sense, so I questioned it, I was never arguing lol.

[Lysergic]

im saying many glaciers in canada are simply gone and many a rapidly decreasing in size every year and you can;t just say its because its natural. Pollution gave me asthma and makes people sick / kills every year, i can only begin to imagine what it is doing to this earth.

also there is data about the environment from the 1800's

You said over the past 200 years (i.e. 1812). What are you comparing that data to?

And I'm not saying pollution isn't bad, nor am I saying that glacial retreat isn't a thing. You are still failing to link glacial retreat specifically to human activity, which is the hinge of the entire argument.

Moreover, since no one else is mentioning it, overall ice thickness in Antarctica has actually increased - the much publicized decreases have been in the Southern Shelf, not in the entire continent as a whole.

[Spy]

A mistake in specifics doesn't necessarily mean a mistake in your general argument, which is:



As far as I can understand, anyway.

@Plato: I know methane is a greenhouse gas. But the fact that it doesn't have dipole movement doesn't mean much when it degrades into CO2, which has net dipole movement. Also, I'm agreeing with you; stop telling me to stop. xD

Methane is in equilibrium with carbon dioxide. And whether CO2 has a net dipole moment or not isn't important. The important thing is that it has vibrational dipole moment that can absorb the frequency in the range of infrared.

[Bunny]

You said over the past 200 years (i.e. 1812). What are you comparing that data to?

And I'm not saying pollution isn't bad, nor am I saying that glacial retreat isn't a thing. You are still failing to link glacial retreat specifically to human activity, which is the hinge of the entire argument.

Moreover, since no one else is mentioning it, overall ice thickness in Antarctica has actually increased - the much publicized decreases have been in the Southern Shelf, not in the entire continent as a whole.

many people are just ignorant to causes of glacial retreat and pollution because they don't want to be held accountable for harming our earth, when in reality they should be, everyone should be. I hate when people say it doesn't matter what one person does, if you said it does matter what one person does, everyone could be that one person and the whole world would change.

The glacial retreat is caused by an increase in green house gases, this increase is caused from too much human pollution.

and the ice in Antarctica is infact thinning greatly.

[Spy]

many people are just ignorant to causes of glacial retreat and pollution because they don't want to be held accountable for harming our earth, when in reality they should be, everyone should be. I hate when people say it doesn't matter what one person does, if you said it does matter what one person does, everyone could be that one person and the whole world would change.

The glacial retreat is caused by an increase in green house gases, this increase is caused from too much human pollution.

and the ice in Antarctica is infact thinning greatly.

Work for Greenpeace if you aren't already.

[Lysergic]

many people are just ignorant to causes of glacial retreat and pollution because they don't want to be held accountable for harming our earth, when in reality they should be, everyone should be. I hate when people say it doesn't matter what one person does, if you said it does matter what one person does, everyone could be that one person and the whole world would change.

The glacial retreat is caused by an increase in green house gases, this increase is caused from too much human pollution.

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm disagreeing with how you've been arguing it.

And considering that the biggest source of greenhouse gasses comes from industrial processes, this isn't a case of "I'll just turn out the lights during the day, and everything will be better!"

It's all well and good to say that one person can change the world, but the nice (perhaps efficient is a better term?) thing about late capitalism is that it encourages you to think that while simultaneously robbing you of agency.

EDIT:
Industrial farming is a huge source by way of nitrous oxide fertilizers (also a massive source of water pollution). I generally enjoy eating.

[Bunny]

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm disagreeing with how you've been arguing it.

And considering that the biggest source of greenhouse gasses comes from industrial processes, this isn't a case of "I'll just turn out the lights during the day, and everything will be better!"

It's all well and good to say that one person can change the world, but the nice (perhaps efficient is a better term?) thing about late capitalism is that it encourages you to think that while simultaneously robbing you of agency.

yes but if people stopped wasting their money on factory produced junk and took it upon themselves to make their own things the factories and mass corporations would be forced to close eventually! if people stopped driving as much, stopped watching tv and going on the internet and using their phones for everything it would make a huge change.

[Spy]

and going on the internet ...

See ya,

[Lysergic]

yes but if people stopped wasting their money on factory produced junk and took it upon themselves to make their own things the factories and mass corporations would be forced to close eventually! if people stopped driving as much, stopped watching tv and going on the internet and using their phones for everything it would make a huge change.

Energy consumption being reduced doesn't mean energy production will fall. Again, industrial processes will go on regardless, since that's the basis for, you know, the economy/your entire life.

But your argument is essentially:
1) Stop buying things.
2) Make everything yourself.
3) Don't drive places.
4) Don't watch TV
5) Don't go online.

In order to make things (especially food production), I will need to drive somewhere to buy the raw materials (and factory produced goods that go into the final product). I will need fertilizers for my own crops, probably nitrous oxide, thus contributing to both water and air pollution (and "global warming"). And the last two are ridiculous, considering that we're arguing this in an online forum.

Essentially, you're saying I need to remove myself from society, and if we ALL do that, problem solved. Good luck making that a reality.

EDIT:
Note that you're also arguing against six massive media conglomerates who essentially encourage passivity in order to have any type of business whatsoever. Conglomerates who have been doing this for around 100 years (not counting print media). I think they're a bit better at convincing people to be passive than you are at convincing them to be active.

[Spy]

I think the fact that there are humans on Earth can be a problem. We all convert oxygen to carbon dioxide. We fart. We expire. 7 billion+ natural greenhouse emission machines.

[Bunny]

Energy consumption being reduced doesn't mean energy production will fall. Again, industrial processes will go on regardless, since that's the basis for, you know, the economy/your entire life.

But your argument is essentially:
1) Stop buying things.
2) Make everything yourself.
3) Don't drive places.
4) Don't watch TV
5) Don't go online.

In order to make things (especially food production), I will need to drive somewhere to buy the raw materials (and factory produced goods that go into the final product). I will need fertilizers for my own crops, probably nitrous oxide, thus contributing to both water and air pollution (and "global warming"). And the last two are ridiculous, considering that we're arguing this in an online forum.

Essentially, you're saying I need to remove myself from society, and if we ALL do that, problem solved. Good luck making that a reality.

EDIT:
Note that you're also arguing against six massive media conglomerates who essentially encourage passivity in order to have any type of business whatsoever. Conglomerates who have been doing this for around 100 years (not counting print media). I think they're a bit better at convincing people to be passive than you are at convincing them to be active.

Lol you're silly lysergic. People have liver like this for years. Fact is you don't need factory produced stuff.
An if there's no demand there will be so supply.

[Lysergic]

Lol you're silly lysergic. People have liver like this for years. Fact is you don't need factory produced stuff.
An if there's no demand there will be so supply.

What's the last thing you bought, and when?

Where was it produced?

You also underestimate the media, which has gotten pretty good at creating demand.

Also, anyone who says climate change isn't a natural process hasn't really looked at the history of the planet. >.>

[Spy]

Factory produced or not, not important. What we want is to use less energy. Be more efficient. Emit less greenhouse gases without sacrificing our ways of lives. Even use novel processes that consume greenhouse gases.

[Lysergic]

Factory produced or not, not important. What we want is to use less energy. Be more efficient. Emit less greenhouse gases without sacrificing our ways of lives. Even use novel processes that consume greenhouse gases.

Disagree. "We" (I'm assuming you're referring to some sort of Joe Everyman here) wants to use the same amount of energy, but guilt free. Hence the interest in solar/wind/nuclear. Problem is that this viewpoint isn't represented in policy decisions, which still heavily subsidize fossil fuels (compared to "greener" methods).

[TimeTrx]

The problem is pollution. Most people don't realize that everything that we have has been here for along time. Oil was here for thousands of years in its current form created millions of years ago. However we can reverse this trend of polluting by reducing our pollution to the bare minimum and cleaning up the pollution we currently have. What people don't understand is if the oceans are growing it will return equalibreum to our atmosphere, we could also do other things to our oceans to get rid of our CO2.

[Spy]

Disagree. "We" (I'm assuming you're referring to some sort of Joe Everyman here) wants to use the same amount of energy, but guilt free. Hence the interest in solar/wind/nuclear. Problem is that this viewpoint isn't represented in policy decisions, which still heavily subsidize fossil fuels (compared to "greener" methods).

Agree to disagree. If we use the same amount of energy, it's very likely that the greenhouse emissions still be high.

[Lysergic]

Agree to disagree. If we use the same amount of energy, it's very likely that the greenhouse emissions still be high.

I don't think we're disagreeing per say; we're talking about what people want, not what reflects some sort of scientific reality.

If I had to walk away with an overall point, it's that these types of discussions tend to imply some sort of exemption - "at least I'm talking about it." This is not the case. Fundamental disconnect between what we say and what we do (perfectly exemplified in the American belief that we are living in some sort of free society/that individualism is a productive ideology/that such a thing as a "humanitarian war" exists/that talking about climate change exempts you compared to people who just flat out don't give a shit).

[Bunny]

If we all just grew and made our own things and traded At a market collective it would be fun and positive!

[TimeTrx]

I think the fact that there are humans on Earth can be a problem. We all convert oxygen to carbon dioxide. We fart. We expire. 7 billion+ natural greenhouse emission machines.

I agree with you but it is know that we take animals and plant life with us. The more humans their are the warmer the water is in swallow water. Helping algae to grow which gives us more oxygen and less CO2. What I think is the problem is the rapid release of pollution is the problem because if we were releasing more over a long period of time the earth would have a easier time of changing. But we are releasing the gases that were bottled up and stored thousands/millions of years ago. All in the period of less than 200 years. That is the problem, what we need to do to correct this and keep going on with life as we know it is to switch to green energy production, fossil fuel-less vehicles and decrease non-greenhouse gas pollution/clean up toxic and deadly pollution.

[Bunny]

I agree with you but it is know that we take animals and plant life with us. The more humans their are the warmer the water is in swallow water. Helping algae to grow which gives us more oxygen and less CO2. What I think is the problem is the rapid release of pollution is the problem because if we were releasing more over a long period of time the earth would have a easier time of changing. But we are releasing the gases that were bottled up and stored thousands/millions of years ago. All in the period of less than 200 years. That is the problem, what we need to do to correct this and keep going on with life as we know it is to switch to green energy production, fossil fuel-less vehicles and decrease non-greenhouse gas pollution/clean up toxic and deadly pollution.

well maybe the world will take out a big group of people! lets all become farmers together! =]

[TimeTrx]

well maybe the world will take out a big group of people! lets all become farmers together! =]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................thinking.......................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................thinking..................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......thinking.................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................thinking.............. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..thinking........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......thinking................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................thinking .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............thinking............................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................................thinking.... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........................................thinkin g................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................thinking.............. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. thinking.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................thinking.................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................thinking............. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............thinking............................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................thinking...... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........thinking................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............thinking........................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. thinking.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................thinking.................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................thin king.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .thinking......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................thinking...... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........thinking








......... NO

[Bunny]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................thinking.......................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................thinking..................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......thinking.................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................thinking.............. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..thinking........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......thinking................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................thinking .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............thinking............................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................................thinking.... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........................................thinkin g................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................thinking.............. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. thinking.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................thinking.................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................thinking............. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............thinking............................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................thinking...... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........thinking................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............thinking........................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. thinking.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................thinking.................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................thin king.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .thinking......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................thinking...... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........thinking








......... NO

don't be a weiner, lets do it =D

[creedkingsx]

well maybe the world will take out a big group of people! lets all become farmers together! =]

moo

[Ash]

moo

Cows cause a ton of pollution......


YOU MUST DIE

[Bruno]

ye sandy fuckt my ass, rain came up through basement and wooden floorboards and then started coming in mail slot on the door and #rekt 2 of our cars