S-FM 222: Black Flag Nightless (2.0)

[SuperJack]

I think that it's too early to tell what Iced's intentions are, but I'll wait to see how he responds to my response to his post.

Do you think they are viewing you from a biased un-cosigning angle?
Or perhaps upraising needless issues as a form of tradesmen?

[Whad]

by the way, im so happy to see Whad back!
i missed you my love <3

Hi Mesk

@Everyone else

Will you lynch Orpz, Mattzed and Cryptonic if Mesk flips innocent, because they pressure voted her too quickly (even though Matt hasn't even gotten on yet and hasn't voted Mesk)?

I refuse to believe you actually think this way. This martyr shit is clearly an excuse to do jack >.<

No, not BECAUSE they pressure voted her too quickly. Although Orpz leaving after joining a train seems a bit suspect.

3 mislynches yes, but given the nature of D1, its statistically more likely to be a mislynch anyways. Why not atleast utilise this opportunity to get the most information from a player for D2 onwards? Do you disagree with my strategy, or the fact that youre the centerpiece in it?

If its the strategy, how would you approach the D1 lynch given youre so worried about the number of mislynches we have?

I don't think that tunneling to a lynch gives the most information D1. I think that (especially in a nightless game), putting up a bunch of trains and seeing interactions and who is willing to hop on what trains and not on others gives us the most information. In fact, I think that having multiple players get up to L-1 on D1 but were let live in favor of a different D1 lynch gives us the most information moving forward.

[yzb25]

If anything, mesks comments seemed like a joke, as did the votes made by others.

Im not particularly alarmed by the Orpz vote, although his absense afterwards is something to look at.
If anything from that wagon, titus is the one to look at. Didnt even offer a reason to join, nor was she mentioned by mesk (the others at least were)

The issue is not that she jokes, the issue is that she made the joke her defense. If she can make herself a joke, and her whole lynch a joke, noone will take it seriously, and then she can fade back into the background and do jackshit for the rest of the game. It's pretty clear Crypt and Titus think Mesk is the best vote on the table currently, even if Orpz is being a slimeball.

And it seems pretty clear that she is at least half-seriously pushing the idea that lynching all the best players is the optimal strategy, anyway.

I concur your statements regarding Orpz. I don't feel the same way about Titus, though.

[SuperJack]

The issue is not that she jokes, the issue is that she made the joke her defense. If she can make herself a joke, and her whole lynch a joke, noone will take it seriously, and then she can fade back into the background and do jackshit for the rest of the game. It's pretty clear Crypt and Titus think Mesk is the best vote on the table currently, even if Orpz is being a slimeball.

And it seems pretty clear that she is at least half-seriously pushing the idea that lynching all the best players is the optimal strategy, anyway.

I concur your statements regarding Orpz. I don't feel the same way about Titus, though.

I think that your forum of analogising the forthcoming is perhaps a bit outdated compared to the meta overgraph.

[Titus]

@Everyone else

Will you lynch Orpz, Mattzed and Cryptonic if Mesk flips innocent, because they pressure voted her too quickly (even though Matt hasn't even gotten on yet and hasn't voted Mesk)?

I refuse to believe you actually think this way. This martyr shit is clearly an excuse to do jack >.<

WHy are you supposing Matt will vote Mesk?

[Titus]

Should Policy lynch Orpz but w/e

You are really scattershot.

[yzb25]

I think that your forum of analogising the forthcoming is perhaps a bit outdated compared to the meta overgraph.

Mesk is extremely self-aware, so it's not.

[Whad]

And why don't we check people that easily crack under pressure to see if they're evil and avoid lynching potential townies?

See your mindset is more "put pressure on a player and get alignment info" which I like.

Iced's mindset is more "let's policy lynch Whad and if Whad is actually town then its not that bad anyway"

These assumptions are biased toward Whad being scum, but this opportunity to have a good footing D2 still exists if he is town.

No vendetta, Honestly dont recall the previous 'beef'. You acknowledge yourself as low hanging fruit though, interesting.

I agree that wiping out the better 'hard' to read players makes sense, as it allows weaker players to be easily exposed later, but then that also leaves weaker players to have to control the game, which could be worse than trying to decipher harder to read players. Also hard to read players may have less interactions with other players, so its more difficult to determine a team composition.

Lol ok glad to hear we're cool. I define all policy lynches as low hanging fruit.

If hard to read players have less interactions with others then how would we ever get reads on them? The only way to know for sure is to lynch or use threat of lynch.

[Mesk514]

Mesk is extremely self-aware, so it's not.

i have tittys and a vagina, whats there not to be aware about?

[Titus]

Hi Mesk



No, not BECAUSE they pressure voted her too quickly. Although Orpz leaving after joining a train seems a bit suspect.



I don't think that tunneling to a lynch gives the most information D1. I think that (especially in a nightless game), putting up a bunch of trains and seeing interactions and who is willing to hop on what trains and not on others gives us the most information. In fact, I think that having multiple players get up to L-1 on D1 but were let live in favor of a different D1 lynch gives us the most information moving forward.

Speed of a wagon is NAI, especially on day 1. Forever long days can be toxic to town.

[Titus]

The issue is not that she jokes, the issue is that she made the joke her defense. If she can make herself a joke, and her whole lynch a joke, noone will take it seriously, and then she can fade back into the background and do jackshit for the rest of the game. It's pretty clear Crypt and Titus think Mesk is the best vote on the table currently, even if Orpz is being a slimeball.

And it seems pretty clear that she is at least half-seriously pushing the idea that lynching all the best players is the optimal strategy, anyway.

I concur your statements regarding Orpz. I don't feel the same way about Titus, though.

What is it you're saying here about me?

[Mesk514]

btw i was scum Black Flag, use that for host meta.. what are the odds? very slim i bet since im town

[Whad]

Do you think they are viewing you from a biased un-cosigning angle?
Or perhaps upraising needless issues as a form of tradesmen?

I have literally no idea what you are talking about here. Tradesmen? Un-cosigning?

[yzb25]

WHy are you supposing Matt will vote Mesk?

I was making a point. Mesk's point is that she's cool with being lynched as long as we lynch Matt, Orpz and Crypt after her death. And she says people will follow through on that because of host meta and shallow VCA.

The answer to the blue question is supposed to be a resounding "no I wouldn't sheep a dead town's reads if they're shit".

[Whad]

Speed of a wagon is NAI, especially on day 1. Forever long days can be toxic to town.

The day ends based on a time limit, not on when someone gets hammered. Not sure if you missed that.

[yzb25]

What is it you're saying here about me?

That I disagree with Ice's assessment of your vote on mesk.

[SuperJack]

Mesk is extremely self-aware, so it's not.

I feel like you are Condescending the point I'm trying to make here, if you take a step back and look at the overview, you will see that there is a correlation between a tantamount wolf-pack type scenario.

[yzb25]

I feel like you are Condescending the point I'm trying to make here, if you take a step back and look at the overview, you will see that there is a correlation between a tantamount wolf-pack type scenario.

I'm not sure what you're saying right now. When you said this:

I think that your forum of analogising the forthcoming is perhaps a bit outdated compared to the meta overgraph.

I presumed you were suggesting I was overreading Mesk's behaviour given her personality.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your deliberately esoteric writing style =P

[SuperJack]

I have literally no idea what you are talking about here. Tradesmen? Un-cosigning?

A tradesmen is someone who gives tit for tat.
A un-cosigning is when your belief becomes self-entangled in its own confidence creating somewhat of a void which can be a big tell.

[Whad]

Since Whads not here yet, and everyone else has checked in, Il make my case for a D1 lynch on him as follows, and encourage others to vote for him.

Whad is the most likely player from this group of players to reveal the most information when facing pressure, and an eventual lynch.

If Whad remains quiet throughout his amounting pressure, and volunteers little to no information (reads, thoughts, strategies etc.) then it will all but confirm him as scum (imo) as it contradicts his usual play.

If Whad remains vocal, we will probably be able to glean more information from him (than any other player) and, in conjuction with the interactions he has with every other player in the game, have a decent position to move forward with on D2.

Obviously the second point is true for any player in this nightless setup, but I believe Whad will be most beneficial out of all the candidates.

These assumptions are biased toward Whad being scum, but this opportunity to have a good footing D2 still exists if he is town.


If anyone disagrees, feel free to post, given this strategy is based on my own meta read of whad. Chime in if its incorrect, or you feel someone is better.

Thought of another reason why this post bothers me. Iced calls me out as the only person who hasn't posted yet, when in fact MattZed hasn't checked in.

I half feel like this was an agenda that Iced wanted to push and didn't count on me being available so close to the time of game start (since I'm not usually on until much later). Not sure if this is paranoia. Feels like he just whipped this up pre-game and posted once he saw I came online since I'm not invisible. It would also have been easy to see in a p-edit that I had posted literally before this one post and had in fact checked in making his post obsolete.

[yzb25]

I'll be retiring now. Goodnight.

[SuperJack]

This gives Uncle the Willies.

[Iced_Monopoly]

Thought of another reason why this post bothers me. Iced calls me out as the only person who hasn't posted yet, when in fact MattZed hasn't checked in.

I half feel like this was an agenda that Iced wanted to push and didn't count on me being available so close to the time of game start (since I'm not usually on until much later). Not sure if this is paranoia. Feels like he just whipped this up pre-game and posted once he saw I came online since I'm not invisible. It would also have been easy to see in a p-edit that I had posted literally before this one post and had in fact checked in making his post obsolete.

I glanced at the signs list and overlooked MZ, you were the only one I hadnt see check in yet. You checking in didnt strengthen or weaken my premise, so i didnt feel the need to make a note of it.

I agree with your tunnel train vs array train sentiment however. Im willing to consider others for the centrepiece role.

I do still disagree in lynching a hard to read, over a vocal (therefore easier to read) candidate for d1 however.

[Whad]

Do you think they are viewing you from a biased un-cosigning angle?
Or perhaps upraising needless issues as a form of tradesmen?

A tradesmen is someone who gives tit for tat.
A un-cosigning is when your belief becomes self-entangled in its own confidence creating somewhat of a void which can be a big tell.

Thanks.
What kind of tell is an un-consigning? Town or scumtell?

Given that Iced has claimed NOT to have beef with me, I'd say it's not an un-consigning view... Which then makes me feel worse about his posts. I initially read the options as town with beef or opportunistic scum. And if Iced claims not to be town with beef, then I'm forced to put more weight on the opportunistic scum lean.

-vote Iced_Monopoly

[Whad]

I glanced at the signs list and overlooked MZ, you were the only one I hadnt see check in yet. You checking in didnt strengthen or weaken my premise, so i didnt feel the need to make a note of it.

I agree with your tunnel train vs array train sentiment however. Im willing to consider others for the centrepiece role.

I do still disagree in lynching a hard to read, over a vocal (therefore easier to read) candidate for d1 however.

Why not put pressure on hard reads forcing them to be vocal? It sounds like you're advocating lynching vocal players on D1 which seems anti-town.

[yzb25]

btw i was scum Black Flag, use that for host meta.. what are the odds? very slim i bet since im town

Post your fucking thoughts on people. It doesn't matter if they're bad, just fucking do it. Argue with me too while you're at it. Otherwise, if you've already decided you'd rather get lynched like a twat, then just go shitpost in CJ dammit, because "omg she's so carefree she must be town" won't work.

God, it's like you're deliberately poking my autism with a stick Mesk =(

[Whad]

@Titus @SuerJack;

Can you tell me what you think about Iced Monopoly's plan for D1? I'd like a second opinion since it's possible my judgement is clouded since I'm the target of it.

[Cryptonic]

I feel like you are Condescending the point I'm trying to make here, if you take a step back and look at the overview, you will see that there is a correlation between a tantamount wolf-pack type scenario.

I don't think it's really possible for someone to condescend someone's points in a game while they're currently unironically voting someone based on copy/paste from wikipedia.

[Iced_Monopoly]

Why not put pressure on hard reads forcing them to be vocal? It sounds like you're advocating lynching vocal players on D1 which seems anti-town.

Whilst it is true that vocal players are easy to read, it is not necessarily true of the inverse, playerd are hard to read because theyre not vocal.

My sentiment is that weaker players, when forced to talk alot, if scum, are likely to volunteer information, or provide TMI.

Stronger players that are hard to read can chat just as much, but are likely to be more cautious is what they post and in what tone.

Also a weak scum could retreat entirely. A weak town is likely to continue talking, like the weak scum, but wont provide TMI or slip, because they have nothing extra to slip to make the mistake

[Cryptonic]

Whilst it is true that vocal players are easy to read, it is not necessarily true of the inverse, playerd are hard to read because theyre not vocal.

My sentiment is that weaker players, when forced to talk alot, if scum, are likely to volunteer information, or provide TMI.

Stronger players that are hard to read can chat just as much, but are likely to be more cautious is what they post and in what tone.

Also a weak scum could retreat entirely. A weak town is likely to continue talking, like the weak scum, but wont provide TMI or slip, because they have nothing extra to slip to make the mistake

what's the point in scum hunting if you're just going to tell scum what you're looking for. Seems like you're just trying to look Town here, man.
"Hey guys, this is what I'm doing right now, doesn't it look really Towny?"

[Iced_Monopoly]

Since I said I would continue to make reads of other players. I will agree with yzb that its frustrating that mesk is not making reads.

In a game with only VTs she should be avtively making reads based on interactions between players, instead shes resigning herself to not committing to anything and joking about instead.

A case could be made that shes uncomfortable or perhaps finding it difficult providing reads when shes scum against a list of only citizens

However, mesk has played scum in this setup before, and if anything would be better equipped to deal with d1 as scum if she rerolled it. It also, as a meta read, vomes across as bored townie who doesnt give a fuck about d1.

If mesk is town, which i believe she is, I would expect her to step up her game, even if she is bored.

[Iced_Monopoly]

what's the point in scum hunting if you're just going to tell scum what you're looking for. Seems like you're just trying to look Town here, man.
"Hey guys, this is what I'm doing right now, doesn't it look really Towny?"

Because after multiple posts, whad was still misreading my intentions, so im spelling it out for him

[Whad]

Whilst it is true that vocal players are easy to read, it is not necessarily true of the inverse, playerd are hard to read because theyre not vocal.

My sentiment is that weaker players, when forced to talk alot, if scum, are likely to volunteer information, or provide TMI.

Stronger players that are hard to read can chat just as much, but are likely to be more cautious is what they post and in what tone.

Also a weak scum could retreat entirely. A weak town is likely to continue talking, like the weak scum, but wont provide TMI or slip, because they have nothing extra to slip to make the mistake

Why would stronger players need to be cautious in this game? In a nightless setup like this, it's as much your role to figure out who the scum are as to communicate a townish disposition/alignment to the other townies. There are literally no TPRs or anything that any player would need to hide.

[Iced_Monopoly]

Why would stronger players need to be cautious in this game? In a nightless setup like this, it's as much your role to figure out who the scum are as to communicate a townish disposition/alignment to the other townies. There are literally no TPRs or anything that any player would need to hide.

There is still a coordinated scum team in play. Any and all interactions are points of interest for the scum team to conceal or expose, depending on what strategies they employ (bussing, distancing etc). So it would make sense for a player to be reserved, or calculated about what they post.

[Whad]

There is still a coordinated scum team in play. Any and all interactions are points of interest for the scum team to conceal or expose, depending on what strategies they employ (bussing, distancing etc). So it would make sense for a player to be reserved, or calculated about what they post.

I think your point here only confirms mine though. That a townsperson has nothing to worry about when they post so they don't have anything to conceal while a scumperson knows the identity of the coordinated scum team so they (and only they!) must be concerned with concealing information.

Would a stronger player who is town need to be cautious and concerned with what they post?

[Titus]

Very rarely a town player would be, if they found partner theory they lacled evidence for. That does not seem like Mesk though.

[Titus]

@Titus @SuerJack;

Can you tell me what you think about Iced Monopoly's plan for D1? I'd like a second opinion since it's possible my judgement is clouded since I'm the target of it.

Which post? I missed it.

[Mesk514]

That does not seem like Mesk though.

what doesnt seem like me? im quite sober of the drugs right now so i should be acting like normal me

[Titus]

what doesnt seem like me? im quite sober of the drugs right now so i should be acting like normal me

You called a scumteam so you don't have a reason to be shy.

[Mesk514]

You called a scumteam so you don't have a reason to be shy.

Lol I was totally joking. I literally looked at the list and looked at what super cool experienced people were on the list and bunched them together. Then they all voted me -mattzed and I said it must be true. Lol wew, since when do people take me seriously?

[Titus]

Lol I was totally joking. I literally looked at the list and looked at what super cool experienced people were on the list and bunched them together. Then they all voted me -mattzed and I said it must be true. Lol wew, since when do people take me seriously?

My name is Titus. I take everything seriously.

What are your "serious" reads?

[Mesk514]

You should know me by now Titus, I don't have anything serious to day til half way through day 1.

[Orpz]

Lol Bias at FM Staff.

wtf

Dafuq Orpz just made these two posts one after the other then left. Literally jumping on the bandwagon >.>

I had to do some work today, but I didn't want to just say "Lol brb work".

Should Policy lynch Orpz but w/e

WTF I HATE SUPERJACK NOW

On the real though, Whad makes a good point. There's no reason to troll on Day 1 because every day's going to be basically as blind as Day 1.

[Orpz]

If I was mafia, you would die tonight.

-vote Gyrlander

Too unsubtle of a Town claim, tbqh.

[Whad]

Here are my thoughts before retiring for the evening.

Town
Mesk514 - current play is in line with town meta. Will be watching to see if activity drops off. Also, since I believe this slot is town we could really use the help with analyzing and pushing other players.
yzb25 - I like this slot's analysis of Mesk, and questioning a variety of players. I think this slot may not have played enough games with Mesk to realize that while her behavior is anti-town, it's not scum.
Superjack - Like the soft probes at players. Less sure about this one than mesk or yzb.

Not enough info:
Iced_Monopoly - I think this slot is pretty scummy because of the whole "focus on weak players while giving hard to read players a free pass" thing, but I have scumread this slot when we are mutually town before.
Gyrlander - the "If I was mafia I would kill yzb at night" thing is a little awkward, but I'm ever so slightly townleaning on it
Orpz - slight scumlean for acknowledging that town should be active/not troll yet doesn't really boost up in activity level.
Mattzed - hasn't posted

Scum:
Titus - way underperforming here.
Cryptonic - also way under performing

-vote Cryptonic

I feel pretty good about this vote since it will hopefully produce more content from a slot that I feel is not being productive and underperforming. Also, not a player in my town pile.

[Orpz]

How in the world do you Town read Superjack and simultaneously Not Enough Info Iced_Monopoly? Iced has the second most posts here, and if someone who posted that much can't give you a lean, then you have a scum lean on them.

Also your scum reads on Titus and Cryptonic are lazy and based off of meta. I don't necessarily disagree tho

[Whad]

How in the world do you Town read Superjack and simultaneously Not Enough Info Iced_Monopoly? Iced has the second most posts here, and if someone who posted that much can't give you a lean, then you have a scum lean on them.

Also your scum reads on Titus and Cryptonic are lazy and based off of meta. I don't necessarily disagree tho

My not enough info on Iced_Monopoly has nothing to do with his quantity of posts. Logically, I find a large portion of what he said extremely scummy. However, I am putting him in "not enough info" since literally every game I've played with Iced (when we've both been town), I've found him extremely scummy since I think we have very different reasoning styles. So I guess what I'm trying to say about iced, is that for now his super scummy posts are NAI to me.

In a game where there are no nightkills and no PRs, it makes 0 sense for players to hold back at all. Cryptonic is worse than Titus imo because the active trolling/wikipedia copy pasta is like, negative utility for the town.

[MattZed]

Busy today. Will be active in ~24 hours.

[Gyrlander]

I think Cryptonic is a good place to start. Orpz continous one-liners where he comes, votes with shitty / random reasoning and then leaves is suspicious as well. And MZ being busy....

I hope all 3 FM Gods aren't mafia together

[yzb25]

@Cryptonic I'm curious what you think about Gyr's posts at the start.

Spoiler : Posts in question :

I love it when people vote with Host WIFOM as reasoning.

You're throwing shade on post #2 of this game for having weak reasoning. You're not even trying to offer another approach. Do you plan to make a few ez points / low-blows, shitpost for a while, collect a few weak town points, then leave like usual?

If I was mafia, you would die tonight.

Are you implying you aren't aware this setup is nightless, even though the setup is called nightless?

I'm implying that if I was mafia you would die tonight. As that's impossible, I'm passively claiming not being Mafia.

It looked like you were trying to pretend you don't know mafia don't have a nightkill to look more townie.

That still seems more plausible than this explanation.

To be honest, I said that but I actually didn't remember this setup was nightless lol. It just sounded great and decided to post it.

K.

At first, he said the contradiction regarding nightkills was an attempt to softclaim town. However, he then changed his alibi to simply "I forgot the setup was nightless". Even though:

1) The setup is called nightless.

2) He has clearly read the setup, because he's familiar with the lore:

Wow, such a coincidence, I'm one too! It's a little strange because there shoudn't be citizens on a ship but... okey!

- if he remembers the setup's lore, it makes it EXTREMELY unlikely he'd forget the setup's most important feature - that there's no nightkills.

Orpz read this as Gyrlander trying too hard to look town, by feigning being unaware of the scum mechanics:

-vote Gyrlander

Too unsubtle of a Town claim, tbqh.

What do you think of Gyr's "If I was mafia, you would die tonight", in light of the above context?

What do you think of Orpz voting Gyr because of it?

What do you think of Gyr's posts since then, if you have any recollection of them?