S-FM: THT: The Wrath of Lady Death

[DarknessB]

my first post after game cancellation, before anyone else calls, nailed both scum:

You're also posting this having several weeks to think about all the possibilities vs. being in the middle of the game and having to act in response to people trying to dissuade you of your view. I think SJ's point stands regardless -- we can speculate all we want, but there's simply no telling how the end of the game would have gone if it were played out on the normal schedule.

[Mikecall]

I actually thought at first Darkness was tailored into being another Lady Death, it that happened, I would of just given up lol.

[DarknessB]

I actually thought at first Darkness was tailored into being another Lady Death, it that happened, I would of just given up lol.

I mean, this goes to the previous point -- it's far easier to think about the game in isolation with plenty of time versus having people shouting theories left and right at you and having to make a pressured decision in the moment.

[Calix]

I just want to say that I had the Healer, the Priest, the Tailor and Lady Death all visit me Night 1. And if RLVG hadn't roleblocked Firebringer, I would have lived.

The sheer luck, lmao.

[Mikecall]

I just want to say that I had the Healer, the Priest, the Tailor and Lady Death all visit me Night 1. And if RLVG hadn't roleblocked Firebringer, I would have lived.

The sheer luck, lmao.

I never get that lucky with visits, best I had was double kill by mafia and vigilante.

[yzb25]

I had already found signs of GameFreak not being town, though. (like where I pointed out he still had suspicions of me the day after he allegedly cleared me) My last will would probably have been something like "Mike, it's all up to you. DO NOT BE DUMB. I'm pretty sure it's GameFreak, and here are the reasons why:" It wasn't over, true, but GameFreak would have had to convince Mike that Fire and Super were scumbuddies. I've seen gambits in my time, sure, but the "Fire has an actual lead and GameFreak counterclaimed to stop it" is a much better explanation of how things went than "Fire was tunneling his scum partner harder than MattZed tunnels basically anyone on D1."

Granted predicting hypotheticals is pretty much impossible, (As SJ pointed out just below you) I was moreso just saying "I feel there's a good chance that". LWs can't defend their positions well, so I still feel Gamefreak had a good chance of convincing Mikecall otherwise. But, I'll let the conversation die now :3

[yzb25]

I mean, this goes to the previous point -- it's far easier to think about the game in isolation with plenty of time versus having people shouting theories left and right at you and having to make a pressured decision in the moment.

tbf Mattzed probably knew all this in the moment. He's got dat deduction down so hard. The real question is whether Firebringer would play MVP or LVP.

I just want to say that I had the Healer, the Priest, the Tailor and Lady Death all visit me Night 1. And if RLVG hadn't roleblocked Firebringer, I would have lived.

The sheer luck, lmao.

You only have yourself to blame. If you WIFOMed well enough, you could have redirected RLVG's roleblock to another player after inevitably deducing FB was priest, FB would heal you, and RLVG was the roleblocker planning to roleblock Firebringer. Puppetmaster properly next time.

[MattZed]

You're also posting this having several weeks to think about all the possibilities vs. being in the middle of the game and having to act in response to people trying to dissuade you of your view. I think SJ's point stands regardless -- we can speculate all we want, but there's simply no telling how the end of the game would have gone if it were played out on the normal schedule.

We can't know with certainty how the game would have ended, but there more than enough information than thinking, say, that the game as it stood was a tossup.

It's the opinion I've had since the before you were lynched. Granted, I was open to seeing any developments that could happen during day, but going into it I was definitely leaning on Super+GameFreak.

Spoiler : Last Will :

THIS IS 3v2 LYLO. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT VOTE UNTIL TOADETTE TELLS YOU TO OR WE COULD LOSE THE GAME.

I was a Citizen. I was actually a confirmed town the moment Darkness came up as LD: If Firebringer is Priest, then SuperJack and GameFreak must be scum and thus the cult, but if GameFreak is Priest then I've been cleared. If my role says anything but Citizen, I have been tailored.

From the roleclaims, there are only three possibilities left:
1. SuperJack+Firebringer are cult
2. SuperJack+GameFreak are cult
3. Firebringer+Mikecall are cult

You can see this because Firebringer or GameFreak is the Priest; if Firebringer is Priest, then he found Super as cult, and GameFreak counterclaimed him. (Option 2) On the other hand, if GameFreak is Priest, then Firebringer must be cult and then SuperJack or Mikecall is the other one (Options 1 and 3).

Firebringer and SuperJack know everyone's alignment. Mike and SuperJack are not on the same team; if Fire is town he knows it's option, 2, while town Super knows it's option 3.

My hunch is on option 2; Fire, Super, and GameFreak all failed to vote RLVG day 2, and Super and Fire have been bussing each other super hard if they're scum together. I also pointed out earlier day 3 that some components of GameFreak's roleclaim didn't match up, like having to review the Priest rolecard during the last minutes of D2.

Don't just be lazy and sheep me. Except for Toadette, all of you know at least one scum. Hunt them, expose them, and then follow Toadette's judgement because we need all 3 town to win.

[MattZed]

I just want to say that I had the Healer, the Priest, the Tailor and Lady Death all visit me Night 1. And if RLVG hadn't roleblocked Firebringer, I would have lived.

The sheer luck, lmao.

A survivor who gets a lot of night actions their way clearly wasn't trying. =P

That LD kill was absolutely brutal, though. I wonder who the other possible kills were?

[Calix]

Lady Death picked Toadette, DarknessB and myself, if I recall correctly.

While I'm here and in a sappy mood, I also want to point out that the post-game discussion is positive for once. Nobody's complaining about lurkers or shitty players or whatnot...it's nice.

I for one had fun playing and watching this game

[MattZed]

Lady Death picked Toadette, DarknessB and myself, if I recall correctly.

While I'm here and in a sappy mood, I also want to point out that the post-game discussion is positive for once. Nobody's complaining about lurkers or shitty players or whatnot...it's nice.

I for one had fun playing and watching this game

Is there a super-secret death chat you have a link to?

I think everyone's gotten over any hard feelings they had, except maybe for anyone who feels like they've been cheated out of a likely-win, but from the looks of it, we've all moved past that.

[Calix]

Is there a super-secret death chat you have a link to?

I think everyone's gotten over any hard feelings they had, except maybe for anyone who feels like they've been cheated out of a likely-win, but from the looks of it, we've all moved past that.

Dead chat and accompanying salt is here. I agree that everyone seems to have gotten over it though.

When I found out how unfortunate I was to have died, yeah I was saltier than the Dead Sea XD

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/iNeigi6vTeVJf

[DarknessB]

I just want to say that I had the Healer, the Priest, the Tailor and Lady Death all visit me Night 1. And if RLVG hadn't roleblocked Firebringer, I would have lived.

The sheer luck, lmao.

If you hadn't died, one of Toadette or yzb would have instead so they should really thank Firebringer, lol. Also, remember that the Lady Death kill was RNG as well, so it's an even greater layer of bad luck.

[DarknessB]

A survivor who gets a lot of night actions their way clearly wasn't trying. =P

That LD kill was absolutely brutal, though. I wonder who the other possible kills were?

LOL, are we having flashbacks to your Assassin's Oath experience, Matt?

The other possible kills were Toadette or yzb, which just happened to be 2 TPRs. Town actually got quite lucky with Calix dying there.

[MattZed]

LOL, are we having flashbacks to your Assassin's Oath experience, Matt?

The other possible kills were Toadette or yzb, which just happened to be 2 TPRs. Town actually got quite lucky with Calix dying there.

Sh...

Town had a fair bit of good luck this game. (Calix dying N1 was probably helpful, and RLVG claiming survivor was gamechangingly beneficial to town) Town would probably have won given that luck, but it was a close game, which is why I'm fine calling it balanced. (especially since LD was helping other scum team, which doesn't have to be the case in future games, so it's not like town needed the luck, either) LD might need a slight buff to be able to endgame cult, though.

[Calix]

Sh...

Town had a fair bit of good luck this game. (Calix dying N1 was probably helpful, and RLVG claiming survivor was gamechangingly beneficial to town) Town would probably have won given that luck, but it was a close game, which is why I'm fine calling it balanced. (especially since LD was helping other scum team, which doesn't have to be the case in future games, so it's not like town needed the luck, either) LD might need a slight buff to be able to endgame cult, though.

That reminds me.

I was town-siding this game :P

So don't use this game as an excuse to go "CALIX IS SO FUCKING SKILLED GUYS LIKE HOLY SHIT DON'T TRUST HER" on me, lol

I agree that the game was surprisingly balanced given that half the town roles were confirmed in the setup xD

[DarknessB]

Sh...

Town had a fair bit of good luck this game. (Calix dying N1 was probably helpful, and RLVG claiming survivor was gamechangingly beneficial to town) Town would probably have won given that luck, but it was a close game, which is why I'm fine calling it balanced. (especially since LD was helping other scum team, which doesn't have to be the case in future games, so it's not like town needed the luck, either) LD might need a slight buff to be able to endgame cult, though.

I agree that Lady Death was going to be rough to win as, which was why I wasn't too initially happy when I got the role, lol. It's never particularly easy to win as the Neutral Killer though, so I'm not sure how the role would be buffed without making it overpowered. Maybe some benefit based on a certain number of nights of survival?

[DarknessB]

I agree that the game was surprisingly balanced given that half the town roles were confirmed in the setup xD

I'd argue that the number of confirmed roles is a bit rough for the scum players, especially in terms of MattZed able to decision theory the game down to not too many possibilities by the end. I guess we don't know how this game would have gone differently if say Toadette or yzb had died on Night 1 though. It would have been nice to have some uncertainty in the roles that Town received to give scum more options to claim. I was basically down to Citizen or crack Toadette's insane code (good luck to me there).

[MattZed]

That reminds me.

I was town-siding this game :P

So don't use this game as an excuse to go "CALIX IS SO FUCKING SKILLED GUYS LIKE HOLY SHIT DON'T TRUST HER" on me, lol

I agree that the game was surprisingly balanced given that half the town roles were confirmed in the setup xD

Tunneling DW was anti-town. =P You weren't definitely going to scumside, (that kill of yours may have hit scum as far as we know) but your death vs a town death helped the numbers game.

I agree that Lady Death was going to be rough to win as, which was why I wasn't too initially happy when I got the role, lol. It's never particularly easy to win as the Neutral Killer though, so I'm not sure how the role would be buffed without making it overpowered. Maybe some benefit based on a certain number of nights of survival?

I could see Lady Death getting a mechanic that lets her win final 3s or final 4s more easily. Maybe a "all your targets die" feature if she makes it through Day 4 or something.

I'd argue that the number of confirmed roles is a bit rough for the scum players, especially in terms of MattZed able to decision theory the game down to not too many possibilities by the end. I guess we don't know how this game would have gone differently if say Toadette or yzb had died on Night 1 though. It would have been nice to have some uncertainty in the roles that Town received to give scum more options to claim. I was basically down to Citizen or crack Toadette's insane code (good luck to me there).

Town's strength in having confirmed roles is balanced by the fact that town only makes up 8/13 of the players. And it's not as large of a benefit as it may seem; on the massclaim day town still had to sort out LD from Me-Mike-You-Super. (and not even all of town voted together at LYLO... looking at you, FB) Your lynch, I'd argue, was more a deduction from the fact that you weren't scumhunting at LYLO than people being confirmed. Even in a hidden setup, Toadette could have confirmed herself anyways, so we'd have been picking from the same pool of four. The day 4 possibility-reduction was facilitated by the fact that were were down to 5 players and the only PR claimers were contradicting each other in a way that made me 100% town and certain teams impossible. Even if this setup had all town roles hidden, we'd be in the same position purely because of the claims. Basically, a sheriff found a scum, and their scumbuddy CC'd sheriff. There's only so many ways out of that in any game.

[RLVG]

RLVG claiming survivor was gamechangingly beneficial to town) Town would probably have won given that luck, but it was a close game, which is why I'm fine calling it balanced.

It wasn't luck that I claimed Survivor. It was a part of a gambit.

Beside, you guys super-failed on gambits. I could've been a TPR who claimed Survivor (emphasis on vests) to get less heat to make out an action, stuff like that. It was also to take the heat away from my buddies, but they kinda didn't go on with the thing.

Think I wrote a big thing in the deadchat, but by now I've forgotten what I wrote.



Next time, I shouldn't claim a role based on a gambit because.

[Calix]

It wasn't luck that I claimed Survivor. It was a part of a gambit.

Beside, you guys super-failed on gambits. I could've been a TPR who claimed Survivor (emphasis on vests) to get less heat to make out an action, stuff like that. It was also to take the heat away from my buddies, but they kinda didn't go on with the thing.

Think I wrote a big thing in the deadchat, but by now I've forgotten what I wrote.



Next time, I shouldn't claim a role based on a gambit because.

At that point, the only TPR who hadn't claimed was Priest or Crier, neither which required an elaborate gambit to claim.

99% of the time, a Neutral claim is not town. You were up against a Doctor claim with half an hour to go. Of course you got lynched.

Why didn't you just counter-claim yzb25 or mislynch secondpassing, anyway?

You are welcome to think that we are all plebs who can't WIFOM, but town went down the cautious route by lynching the non-town claim.

[DarknessB]

It wasn't luck that I claimed Survivor. It was a part of a gambit.

Beside, you guys super-failed on gambits. I could've been a TPR who claimed Survivor (emphasis on vests) to get less heat to make out an action, stuff like that. It was also to take the heat away from my buddies, but they kinda didn't go on with the thing.

Think I wrote a big thing in the deadchat, but by now I've forgotten what I wrote.



Next time, I shouldn't claim a role based on a gambit because.

It might have been a gambit, but it made no sense for the Town to seek out your gambit. You basically were counterclaiming yzb as Healer by claiming you were Survivor who shot and killed Calix (Lady Death in your hypothetical) and that you had evidence yzb was lying.

If you were telling the truth, then you were Survivor and yzb was likely Cult. However, if yzb was telling the truth, then he was Healer and you were Cult. The logical decision for the Town would be to lynch the Survivor, who might end up siding with the Cult at the end anyway. If you rolled Survivor, then they would have lynched yzb the next day and we haven't lost anything, other than a Neutral who might double cross the Town. In contrast, if we lynched yzb and he was Healer, then we just lost a powerful TPR and then have to deal with you as Cult. Losing a Survivor is a far lower price to pay than losing a TPR.

[RLVG]

Why didn't you just counter-claim yzb25 or mislynch secondpassing, anyway?

I think it was about the played being on my train, their mentality about requiring a lynch, the amount of time remaining and the fact that any late claim by me would be incriminated one way or another.

A lynch couldn't be avoided if I remember right.

[RLVG]

Players*.

[Calix]

I think it was about the played being on my train, their mentality about requiring a lynch, the amount of time remaining and the fact that any late claim by me would be incriminated one way or another.

A lynch couldn't be avoided if I remember right.

Nobody was paying any attention to you UNTIL you claimed.

secondpassing was going to be lynched. If you read the chat, secondpassing and yzb25 were the main suspects - both town. Then you implicitly countered the (uncounterclaimed) Doctor claim with a Neutral claim.

2 + 2, dude.

[MattZed]

It wasn't luck that I claimed Survivor. It was a part of a gambit.

Beside, you guys super-failed on gambits. I could've been a TPR who claimed Survivor (emphasis on vests) to get less heat to make out an action, stuff like that. It was also to take the heat away from my buddies, but they kinda didn't go on with the thing.

Think I wrote a big thing in the deadchat, but by now I've forgotten what I wrote.



Next time, I shouldn't claim a role based on a gambit because.

But why should we have concluded that a town would CC a dead person's role in the last 30 minutes of day in order to discredit someone who was claiming TPR?

You were hoping town would see your survivor claim and think:

1. Calix was actually LD who was killed by widower N1
2. Calix made a fake Widower LW for shits and giggles
3. Lady Death chose to not kill N1 or the cult kill was blocked
4. Scum claimed healer while on the spot and without being CC'd
5. The true healer would, instead of CC'ing, oppose the fakeclaim by claiming survivor at last minute

The explanation "RLVG is actually just scum or a legit survivor" was far more likely.

[RLVG]

That didn't prevent them from voting me randomly and building a train, when there were two options already.

[RLVG]

The explanation "RLVG is actually just scum or a legit survivor" was far more likely.

I'm fine with this logic.

[Toadette]

Tunneling DW was anti-town. =P

THE IRONY!! IT BURNS!!

[Firebringer]

This game went on pause so long. I forgot my role.
My last will.

ALl the interactions of players in the game.

Basically everything.

I keep zero notes too (discounting last will)

So....yeah.

Who was winning even when this paused?

[RLVG]

Who was winning even when this paused?

MattZed was Lady Death and won by claiming Survivor. /S

[Firebringer]

MattZed was Lady Death and won by claiming Survivor. /S

You can't win a cancelled game. Also I don't think this is even true.

[NoctiZ]

Speaking of night actions, that reminds me of N1 of the FM I got my signature pic from. Nearly culting the neutral killer role and instead he gets bussed with my arch-nemesis (my secondary win con) who was the leader of a Mafia. And I think I was also visted by a Sheriff. Anyway, keep it chill guys.

[DarknessB]

You can't win a cancelled game. Also I don't think this is even true.

That's not true -- I am a winner here, if for no other reason, by virtue of my loss no longer counting.

[RLVG]

You can't win a cancelled game. Also I don't think this is even true.

True, it ain't true. I'm the one who won together with Calix and Sen, we were the perfect mafia. /S

[Frog]

That's not true -- I am a winner here, if for no other reason, by virtue of my loss no longer counting.

Lol. That sounds like an MVP speech.

-vote DarknessB

[SuperJack]

I just miss Thornbolt

[deathworlds]

Speaking of night actions, that reminds me of N1 of the FM I got my signature pic from. Nearly culting the neutral killer role and instead he gets bussed with my arch-nemesis (my secondary win con) who was the leader of a Mafia. And I think I was also visted by a Sheriff. Anyway, keep it chill guys.

aaaye I did that bussing

[Frog]

aaaye I did that bussing

Was this FM XX - New Marias?

[deathworlds]

Was this FM XX - New Marias?

Yes.

[Frog]

Yes.

Lol. That was my first (but surprisingly not worst) FM ever. I private messaged like 8 players D1, was almost modkilled for it, then was killed N2 by Conduit.

[FM Venser]

[yzb25]

I just miss Thornbolt

Shit, I hope he's okay and coming back soon. You don't have his contact details? That's unusual, you have like, everyone's contact details.

[SuperJack]

I think he is just Ill. He will come back. He is out sites ginger guy.