Improve the Blackmailer

[Sin]

A suggestion to improve the Blackmailer role. Indeed, these days, it's pretty easy to make other people understand that you are Blackmailed. Rainbow vote, and almost everyone knows you can't talk. You can even vote/unvote a player a lot of tames if you claimed invest/sheriff and got him evil the night you were blackmailed.

So my suggestion is : add an anti-spam timer that woks after the FIRST vote, with a 10 seconds cooldown, when you are Blackmailed.

If you vote someone, then before you unvote, you have to wait for 10 seconds. This CD goes back to 0 if someone is put on trial. This way, if you have to quick vote on someone (not a lot of time left), you can do it.

Which would in practice deny the Rainbow Vote. Unless the town is absolutely silent.

[Deantwo]

interesting idea... alway found it weird that you were even allowed to vote when BMed -_-

but the Blackmailer is ok as it is... what you complaining about is simply poor setups... change you setup to have secret votes... that way no one can tell who is BMed ^^

[maccabbe]

Some of us dislike secret votes, for instance most of us. I see no reason to add this as an option to blackamailer or an option to limit the number of times a blackmailer player can vote per day.

[RLVG]

I agree to this idea, implement a feature to neutralize Vote-Hinting.

But how about if there's a limit to vote a total maximun of X times in addition while Blackmailed?



You're blackmailed, and your secret is threatened.
Sure - go all Out-Of-Character and pretend you're a citizen that won lottery happy-go-lucky that nothing happened.

[Slaol]

It won't happen. Turn on secret ballot. Play 10 games with secret ballot and you will realize it is better for all sides. Scum can hide better if Town has no real leads, but small pockets of Town can put up legitimate leads without having to wait/rely on the nubs to vote. Blackmailer gets better, Disguiser gets better since it can now take over Mayor, and Mayor can lose votes in Cult (Cult+Mayor OP) without it being revealed until the end of a day.

[Lazers]

A decent solution, but should be something like ~5 seconds.

10 seconds would be annoying as fuck

[Sin]

It won't happen. Turn on secret ballot. Play 10 games with secret ballot and you will realize it is better for all sides. Scum can hide better if Town has no real leads, but small pockets of Town can put up legitimate leads without having to wait/rely on the nubs to vote. Blackmailer gets better, Disguiser gets better since it can now take over Mayor, and Mayor can lose votes in Cult (Cult+Mayor OP) without it being revealed until the end of a day.

Considering I play with all investigative roles as random, then town can very well get a setup without sheriff or invest, so without anyone available to give "hard clues". If you can't even count on the vote patterns, it's even more mafia paradise than the classical game. Anonymous Ballot denies almost any chance for a "town comeback" when they lost a lot of players in the beginning, since while mafia can easily target a single townie, town lacks the ability to focus on someone.

Disguiser doesn't need to get better. It's already the most powerful mafia role.

Also, I play with Mayor able of being healed, and healing/BG preventing cult conversion, so I don't make Mayor lose votes in cult. If he is turned, then town screwed.

[Myrtroll]

Why just not make a blackmailed target unable to vote? Wouldn't break anything really I think, and would help pub games where this is the issue. Would especially be good in a vote where abstaining gets suspicious.

[Slaol]

Considering I play with all investigative roles as random, then town can very well get a setup without sheriff or invest, so without anyone available to give "hard clues". If you can't even count on the vote patterns, it's even more mafia paradise than the classical game. Anonymous Ballot denies almost any chance for a "town comeback" when they lost a lot of players in the beginning, since while mafia can easily target a single townie, town lacks the ability to focus on someone.

Disguiser doesn't need to get better. It's already the most powerful mafia role.

Also, I play with Mayor able of being healed, and healing/BG preventing cult conversion, so I don't make Mayor lose votes in cult. If he is turned, then town screwed.

Investigative- I guarantee 1 Sheriff, and 1 Town Investigative. Then 2 Cores, a Town Random, and an Any Random.

Disguiser- I would completely disagree. Disguiser has a high potential in taking proven Town roles to both avoid accusation, and accuse random players. Best combo is with a Consig, and to have him take an Investigator, then have Consig pump the Disguiser info. Town is all "wut?" But Janitor is so incredible, and shuts down Town. 1 cleaning makes their process to find lying scum difficult, 2 and 3 make it just about impossible, and if he can get more than 3 it is basically GG. As well as the Janitor not having to wait for something to happen to begin taking effect. Having Disguiser sit around before acting isn't good, and if he doesn't play it perfectly afterwards it is obvious. Unless he waits for a time to just use the 2nd kill to guarantee voting majority.

Mayor- Cult+Mayor OP, any faction that has 4 members, and 7 votes is ridiculous. I should note I do play with Mayor at 4 votes, can be healed, BG stops conversion, and obviously Doc stops it. Mayors are regularly turned in the late game of Cult saves, and as such town is regularly screwed even without the Mayor extra votes. Either Cult has 4 people and just wins, or has like 2 people and town doesn't know Cult is around yet. How many days do you have between conversions for Cult? 2 nights between might make Mayor keeping votes ok.

[Espozito]

A better idea would be not to allow bmed guy to vote at all. That would seem he is afk and frame a guy more. If a guy is bmed but can vote then town just knows he is blackmailed and that he aint maf. But if the guy is bmed and can do nothing to communicate at day even by vote, then ppl think he doesnt want to answer or is afk. That would be much more useful for maf.
Though it may be too OP for maf as they can even win the 4 vs 3 game or 3 vs 2 as 1 of townies simply can't vote and maf voteblocks even when is outnumbered. So, i don't really know bout this idea.

[Slaol]

A better idea would be not to allow bmed guy to vote at all. That would seem he is afk and frame a guy more. If a guy is bmed but can vote then town just knows he is blackmailed and that he aint maf. But if the guy is bmed and can do nothing to communicate at day even by vote, then ppl think he doesnt want to answer or is afk. That would be much more useful for maf.
Though it may be too OP for maf as they can even win the 4 vs 3 game or 3 vs 2 as 1 of townies simply can't vote and maf voteblocks even when is outnumbered. So, i don't really know bout this idea.

Secret Ballot effectively cancels all the blackmailed's points. They still can respond to other leads and logic, but they lose the easy ability to show themselves as blackmailed, and lose the ability to tell their own leads. Effectively being a Blackmail, and Role Block.

[Sin]

A better idea would be not to allow bmed guy to vote at all. That would seem he is afk and frame a guy more. If a guy is bmed but can vote then town just knows he is blackmailed and that he aint maf. But if the guy is bmed and can do nothing to communicate at day even by vote, then ppl think he doesnt want to answer or is afk. That would be much more useful for maf.
Though it may be too OP for maf as they can even win the 4 vs 3 game or 3 vs 2 as 1 of townies simply can't vote and maf voteblocks even when is outnumbered. So, i don't really know bout this idea.

No, it would make the BMer way too powerful in endgames. Especially if he Blackmails an Investigative Role, and no one else can spot him.

[Sin]

Disguiser- I would completely disagree. Disguiser has a high potential in taking proven Town roles to both avoid accusation, and accuse random players. Best combo is with a Consig, and to have him take an Investigator, then have Consig pump the Disguiser info. Town is all "wut?" But Janitor is so incredible, and shuts down Town. 1 cleaning makes their process to find lying scum difficult, 2 and 3 make it just about impossible, and if he can get more than 3 it is basically GG. As well as the Janitor not having to wait for something to happen to begin taking effect. Having Disguiser sit around before acting isn't good, and if he doesn't play it perfectly afterwards it is obvious. Unless he waits for a time to just use the 2nd kill to guarantee voting majority.

Mayor- Cult+Mayor OP, any faction that has 4 members, and 7 votes is ridiculous. I should note I do play with Mayor at 4 votes, can be healed, BG stops conversion, and obviously Doc stops it. Mayors are regularly turned in the late game of Cult saves, and as such town is regularly screwed even without the Mayor extra votes. Either Cult has 4 people and just wins, or has like 2 people and town doesn't know Cult is around yet. How many days do you have between conversions for Cult? 2 nights between might make Mayor keeping votes ok.

I don't deny that the Janitor is extremely powerful, but he is also a very easy target for an investigator - there aren't many Coroners out there.

Disguiser can double the number of maf kills during one night. That's just math. If Mafia is lucky enough to be spared by invests & neutral killers in the first two days, the disguiser can guarantee the win using arithmetics. That's why it doesn't need, in my opinion, to by improved at all. In many pubs games where you always have 2 or 3 silent people, spotting the Disguiser once he kills is quite hard. And when he knows how to play, well, it's even worse.

Of course he doesn't give intel before, but he is also the maf that can escape an almost-lynch if town has no Roleblockers or Dets.

[Slaol]

I don't deny that the Janitor is extremely powerful, but he is also a very easy target for an investigator - there aren't many Coroners out there.

Disguiser can double the number of maf kills during one night. That's just math. If Mafia is lucky enough to be spared by invests & neutral killers in the first two days, the disguiser can guarantee the win using arithmetics. That's why it doesn't need, in my opinion, to by improved at all. In many pubs games where you always have 2 or 3 silent people, spotting the Disguiser once he kills is quite hard. And when he knows how to play, well, it's even worse.

Of course he doesn't give intel before, but he is also the maf that can escape an almost-lynch if town has no Roleblockers or Dets.

There are not many Coroners, but the Janitors cleaning is rather powerful in allowing the Janitor or fellow Mafia to counter claim with anything, and turn the town on the investigator.

Maths. Disguiser can do quite a lot, but having NO benefit from a Mafia role throughout the vast majority of the game is also a drawback. You have to rely on things to go quite well for Mafia to have the Disguiser just flawlessly do that, and if things are going that well you are regularly going to win even if you have 1 GF, and 2 Mafioso. Disguiser is good. But it is too situational, where are Janitor (and maybe even Consig) allows for guaranteed benefit and maximization of gameplay.

Escaping accusation is a hell of a thing. But meh in comparison to the Janitor allowing ALL the Mafia roles to be harder to find- in my opinion. Janitor can also fake to be a Disguiser.

On another note, I once rolled a Mafia of GF, Janitor, Disguiser, Disguiser. Town didn't know jack shit.

[Sin]

There are not many Coroners, but the Janitors cleaning is rather powerful in allowing the Janitor or fellow Mafia to counter claim with anything, and turn the town on the investigator.

Maths. Disguiser can do quite a lot, but having NO benefit from a Mafia role throughout the vast majority of the game is also a drawback. You have to rely on things to go quite well for Mafia to have the Disguiser just flawlessly do that, and if things are going that well you are regularly going to win even if you have 1 GF, and 2 Mafioso. Disguiser is good. But it is too situational, where are Janitor (and maybe even Consig) allows for guaranteed benefit and maximization of gameplay.

Escaping accusation is a hell of a thing. But meh in comparison to the Janitor allowing ALL the Mafia roles to be harder to find- in my opinion. Janitor can also fake to be a Disguiser.

On another note, I once rolled a Mafia of GF, Janitor, Disguiser, Disguiser. Town didn't know jack shit.

A good Janitor is really useful, even if the whole "giving an alibi" is not game breaking. It may give a clue to an invest that someone is lying. As for the "guaranteed to be useful", it's only true if A/Target made a lw, B/Target didn't reveal beforehand C/Target wasn't checked by a det/an invest.

Anyway, to come back to the point, Secret Ballot is a way to make the whole game rely on luck and eloquence instead of logics. Depends on what you prefer, but it heavily favors the mafia - not the neutral roles though, because it is really easy to get someone lynched. I prefer the standard trials, where the votes are public. It makes it really harder for an Executioner or a Jester to win, and forces mafia to have a real, solid alibi and to be able to work independently. When using a secret ballot, on a day without any clue, if people don't skip for any reason (conversation for example), you can decide to eliminate a player with a quick, combined vote. And no one will ever know who did it. And you can do it again the next day. And as you say, a Disguiser can even take an important role without being spotted.

And the Blackmailer, as it is, isn't a real Blackmailer, he only is "muting someone", without denying him communications. With the Cooldown, no spam, and the chat becomes that much easier to read. As for the duration...5s isn't that much for a 1.5 min day. With 10s, you can easily vote if it is needed, but you won't rainbow, unless you are very patient, and people are really observant.

[Slaol]

A good Janitor is really useful, even if the whole "giving an alibi" is not game breaking. It may give a clue to an invest that someone is lying. As for the "guaranteed to be useful", it's only true if A/Target made a lw, B/Target didn't reveal beforehand C/Target wasn't checked by a det/an invest.

Anyway, to come back to the point, Secret Ballot is a way to make the whole game rely on luck and eloquence instead of logics. Depends on what you prefer, but it heavily favors the mafia - not the neutral roles though, because it is really easy to get someone lynched. I prefer the standard trials, where the votes are public. It makes it really harder for an Executioner or a Jester to win, and forces mafia to have a real, solid alibi and to be able to work independently. When using a secret ballot, on a day without any clue, if people don't skip for any reason (conversation for example), you can decide to eliminate a player with a quick, combined vote. And no one will ever know who did it. And you can do it again the next day. And as you say, a Disguiser can even take an important role without being spotted.

And the Blackmailer, as it is, isn't a real Blackmailer, he only is "muting someone", without denying him communications. With the Cooldown, no spam, and the chat becomes that much easier to read. As for the duration...5s isn't that much for a 1.5 min day. With 10s, you can easily vote if it is needed, but you won't rainbow, unless you are very patient, and people are really observant.

My point is I would bet everything that this idea won't get in. So, if you want Blackmailer better then do secret ballot. The talk of combined vote for mafia to just eliminate someone is meh. Trials should still be on, and it does reveal who votes. Disguiser's entire point is to be hidden, why is him acting "without being spotted" not exactly in line with what the role should be and do?

[Jim]

I like the idea but I can't think of a good solution because the amount of seconds can ruin the game in other areas, or not be long enough to stop rainbow-voting.

[Deantwo]

mmh... i hadn't played with Secret Ballot for a while... and had confused it with Anonymous Ballot

Secret Ballot work much like the INNO / GUILTY voting... you can see who tossed a vote in... but what was voted isn't shown till the vote is over... mean you can't just toss a vote... people will know you were the one who voted

Anonymous Ballot is the one that happen at (Wiki link) Three Days of Peace... no one knows who voted... or who voted who

just wanted to clear it up...

[Sin]

mmh... i hadn't played with Secret Ballot for a while... and had confused it with Anonymous Ballot

Secret Ballot work much like the INNO / GUILTY voting... you can see who tossed a vote in... but what was voted isn't shown till the vote is over... mean you can't just toss a vote... people will know you were the one who voted

Anonymous Ballot is the one that happen at (Wiki link) Three Days of Peace... no one knows who voted... or who voted who

just wanted to clear it up...

Oh, okay then. That's Anonymous Ballot I hate then, not Secret Ballot. Still, Blackmailer should work for every setup picked, especially with the most common one.