S-FM: THT: The Wrath of Lady Death

[Mikecall]

• Mikecall: Mike's vote seemed mostly out of preservation given he was also being voted up. I don't recall him really having a cogent case against DW either. Suspicious, trending down.

It wasnt out of perservation, considering the fact that deathworlds didnt even specify a reasonable reason for wanting to lynch me, just trying to sheep vote to gain a claim out of me.

[Mikecall]

[/LIST]

It wasnt out of perservation, considering the fact that deathworlds didnt even specify a reasonable reason for wanting to lynch me, just trying to sheep vote to gain a claim out of me.

Also to add, I wanted to even the votes out so we had 2 safety lynches, one being on me before, until the votes died down and deathworlds so it would of been an optional choice.

[DarknessB]

[/LIST]

It wasnt out of perservation, considering the fact that deathworlds didnt even specify a reasonable reason for wanting to lynch me, just trying to sheep vote to gain a claim out of me.

DW was flailing because he was getting voted on himself. The question is why you jumped on his train.

[Mikecall]

DW was flailing because he was getting voted on himself. The question is why you jumped on his train.

By having 2 safety lynch trains on the 2 most scummiest people, it would of been avoiding what happened on Colder War, since then we have a good 2 leads that could of been pushed for claiming

So lets say it was Me and Deathworlds both 2 votes from lynch

Then it would of been a deciding factor between the rest of the group to talk to each other and see if there was any other potential trains that could of happened, like if Mikecall for an example was the scummiest person to trial, then you would all get me to (L-1) for myself to tell you potential reads overall and my role overall.

[Mikecall]

But here in my opinion is my list from Town to Scum

(Town)
DarknessB
Gamefreak
RLVG
Toadette
Secondpassing
Yzb25
Superjack
MattZed
(Scum)

[Mikecall]

-vote MattZed

[yzb25]

I know this is a little shitty, but if I put pressure on myself to give something good I'll never get around to doing it lol.

1=lynch naow
10=confirmed town

DarknessB: With some of his arguments against me, it honestly felt like he was just disagreeing / attacking me for the sake of it. Other times though he actually acknowledged the point I was trying to make which was really reasonable. Enough about me though.

His reads for most of his game have felt very shallow and reserved (apart from on me lol). Not in the sense that they lack substance - moreso in the sense I feel like they were created by a computer. It is obviously partially a personality thing, and the fact it was only d1, but he's definitely intentionally putting thought into being neutral and unreadable, in my eyes. This only makes it harder for towns trying to figure him out. Showing a lot of transparency (like Spruance did, mostly) makes life a lot easier for town. Hence: 4

Mattzed: My (and seemingly FB's) brain reads Mattzed's posts and instinctively thinks "standard Mattzed". Some seem to be criticizing the fact a lot of his aggression doesn't seem beneficial, but that just seems to be his personality. He overdoes it. What really makes me suspicious of him is certain night actions that have taken place. The night action situation rings of Mattzed. If the host answers my questions how I expect, I'll write another post on a theory I have. 3 if theory works, 5 if doesn't

Secondpassing: Though his read jumping looks flimsy, it feels indicative of someone who is genuinely thinking and changing their mind alot, rather than a scum with a clear agenda of how they're going to play. What I would criticize is the lack of reasoning behind many of his reads - the lack of reasoning makes the posts feel more fakeable. Even then though, he feels transparent. 7

Gamefreak: To be frank, I barely remember his posts. His thought processes seem rational from what I remember though. I'm going to say 6 but don't take my word for it until I look closer

RLVG No fucking clue. A lot of the long posts have a lot of shit that is completely useless, but I'm not sure if he was taking the same laid-back approach I was. He feels towny tho for reasons I struggle to fully articulate. This may sound really stupid, but he cares about his posts and whether people read them. If a scum was fabricating bullshit, they wouldn't mind / feel offended if people thought it was shit. This may sound like stupid projection, and it might be. But... 6.5

Firebringer: If he's scum, he's fooled me. I really feel like he's town this game. He's taking risks with his play (i.e. the long notes that I've never seen him do before) that could go to shit / turn out to be bad. Furthermore, he seems to be putting real effort into contribution. I give him 8.

Toadette: Like Firebringer, she feels way to genuine and contributey to be scum. While I have disagreements with some of her approaches and ideas, I still feel good about her. 8

Superjack: Unreadable at present time. - However, in regards to Shifty, I felt like he was just quiet town, because, when asked, he gave good opinions on things. Obviously, that in and of itself isn't incredible compelling, but it's worth of a 5.7

Mikecall: Still the same as when I did that defense post. If it really is so terrible, I'll redo it, but to summarize what he said, he doesn't strike me as a cowardly lurker, or someone who's consciously opinion-copying, at all. However, he's gone for questionnable lynches and not responded to criticisms at certain times. Does this make him scum? Idk, but it certainly makes him 25

[DarknessB]

You're arguing that Spruance showed transparency? He was basically like "vote for this guy, he's scum" (sans any reason) and he jumped on trains at the end of the day without any votes (like Shifty). Reading the rest of your post, but just wanted to highlight this off the bat. If you are suggesting I act more like Spruance, we really have different ideas of what good townplay is...

[Firebringer]

But here in my opinion is my list from Town to Scum

(Town)
DarknessB
Gamefreak
RLVG
Toadette
Secondpassing
Yzb25
Superjack
MattZed
(Scum)

Why am I not in this?

[DarknessB]

Why am I not in this?

Because you're obviously confirmed town, duh.

[Mikecall]

Why am I not in this?

I wondered that also, you remember that day 1 town read post? ;). You forgot me on yours xD.

[Firebringer]

Deathworlds

• MattZed: Ultimately hammered deathworlds as he promised after Firebringer completed his review of Day 1, but had been pushing hard yzb and others. Doesn't come off particularly scummy to me for this decision given when it took place. Not particularly suspicious to me.
• Firebringer: Voted for deathworlds somewhat earlier in the day, perhaps based on Calix's pressure on him. I don't recall a lot of Fire / DW interaction toward the end of the day. Fire had posted his read walls and not much else during the second half of the day. Somewhat suspicious IMO.
• secondpassing: I don't recall secondpassing having a particularly good reason for voting deathworlds and I think that he might have even had others ahead on his various read lists. Somewhat suspicious, especially in combination with his reads which seemed a little off.
• Mikecall: Mike's vote seemed mostly out of preservation given he was also being voted up. I don't recall him really having a cogent case against DW either. Suspicious, trending down.
• yzb25: Seemed to be a flagrant sheeping of Calix without much independent thought on why he thought DW was suspicious. Suspicious.
• Toadette: Vote seemed driven by a desire for information and to avoid a no-lynch. Not particularly suspicious.

Not Deathworlds:

• Shifty (SuperJack): Shifty was the definition of an empty slot on Day 1. The fact that he would not get on the DW train might mean he was AFK scum though. Suspicious.
• RLVG. He was putting a good deal of thought into trying to tease out whether there was any connection between MattZed and Firebringer. Seemed principled in his votes. Not particularly suspicious.
• GameFreak. Not particularly active outside of spurts, but was contributing to the questioning of yzb. Somewhere in the middle.

Okay. How is my activity with read walls, "suspicious" and how can you say I was less active in the second part of the day, that isn't true at all.

If MattZed isn't scummy why is he partial yellow? Why is everyone in your read list even if you have nothing bad to say about them scummy?

[Firebringer]

Because you're obviously confirmed town, duh.

Weird how you called me scum/suspicious a page back.

I wondered that also, you remember that day 1 town read post? ;). You forgot me on yours xD.

Okay. I will assume you have no opinion on me.

[DarknessB]

The fact that yzb strongly town-reads secondpassing despite his very odd reads list concerns me.

I also note that yzb says I am scum because I am not transparent and then admits he doesn't have a fucking clue about RLVG and characterizes him as more Town-sided.

You are aware that people are well-aware of the "contributors get seen as Town" meta, right? You're basically saying, if someone contributes, they can't be scum? Good luck to you in games vs. Helz...

[Firebringer]

I thought this train was legitimately good and I explained my reasons for it yesterday, whether or not anyone found them comprehensible is another matter. I found Calix's posts just that little bit odd yesterday, but I'm against Calix day 1 lynches, this will have to be changed if I ever play another match with her (highly likely).

Calix votes deathworlds for calling her out on being that neutral.
Firebringer sheeped.
I did mine for those reasons ye.
MattZed and Toadette were pro-lynch.
Mikecall thought deathworlds was scummy?
yzb25 votes deathworlds to help train? thought he was scum? self-preservation?

Vote Count 8
deathworlds (6 [L-1]):
Calix, Firebringer, secondpassing, Mikecall, yzb25, Toadette
yzb25 (4 [L-3]):
MattZed, RLVG, GameFreak, DarknessB
Mikecall (2 [L-5]):
Spruance, Shifty
Calix (1 [L-6]):
deathworlds

Vote Count 9
deathworlds (7 [L-0]): Calix, MattZed, Firebringer, secondpassing, Mikecall,yzb25, Toadette
Mikecall (2 [L-5]): Spruance, Shifty
yzb25 (4 [L-3]): deathworlds, RLVG, GameFreak, DarknessB



I was quite disappointed in yzb25's defense.
My current priorities in what I want to get done today are to vote yzb25, Mikecall, SuperJack, DarknessB, and maybe Toadette.
yzb25 will probably say something in his own defense soon.

-vote SuperJack

Context of this post: no one is on. this vote is to help you help me pressure this guy.

I don't believe I sheeped it, but Mikecall 100% was on it to defend himself. I don't think he ever made a case on DW.

[yzb25]

There you go.

Omg OoO! I feel like such a spastic lol.

Anyway, my point for number 2 wasn't so much that the doctor missed the heal if 2 is the case, it's that the mafia took a huge risk by assuming doctor would try some huge WIFOM bullshit and heal someone else. Anyway, any doctor that tries that kind of WIFOM bullshit is a bad doctor and should feel ashamed of themselves.

But I don't wanna give up on this theory xD.

Do tailings work even if they come after LD's touches? Because I was under the impression LD's actual kill happened last due to the rolecard.

[DarknessB]

Okay. How is my activity with read walls, "suspicious" and how can you say I was less active in the second part of the day, that isn't true at all.

If MattZed isn't scummy why is he partial yellow? Why is everyone in your read list even if you have nothing bad to say about them scummy?

Yellow means possible scum. And I approached Toadette's question as, go through everyone who voted for DW and make a case of whether or not their vote was sketchy or not. Then, the same for the non-DW voters. I didn't just list possible scum, but took it as a chance to make another read list.

[Firebringer]

The fact that yzb strongly town-reads secondpassing despite his very odd reads list concerns me.

I also note that yzb says I am scum because I am not transparent and then admits he doesn't have a fucking clue about RLVG and characterizes him as more Town-sided.

You are aware that people are well-aware of the "contributors get seen as Town" meta, right? You're basically saying, if someone contributes, they can't be scum? Good luck to you in games vs. Helz...

I am aware of this, but who are your town reads exactly?
Everyone you painted as partially yellow or full yellow.
You don't seem to have a strong town read, this feels like yesterday but worse.

You are still playing it up as you can lynch whoever the mass goes to.

[Firebringer]

Yellow means possible scum. And I approached Toadette's question as, go through everyone who voted for DW and make a case of whether or not their vote was sketchy or not. Then, the same for the non-DW voters. I didn't just list possible scum, but took it as a chance to make another read list.

You should have some town reads. You having all scum reads crosses me as suspicious as hell.

[DarknessB]

I am aware of this, but who are your town reads exactly?
Everyone you painted as partially yellow or full yellow.
You don't seem to have a strong town read, this feels like yesterday but worse.

You are still playing it up as you can lynch whoever the mass goes to.

Toadette, RLVG, MattZed, then you, but you have been up and down depending on your posts.

[DarknessB]

You should have some town reads. You having all scum reads crosses me as suspicious as hell.

The point was to think about what players' scum motivations might have been in the DW / non-DW vote.

[DarknessB]

It's also Day 2 and most of us got duped by Calix -- I'm trying to take a step back and rethink things in light of that.

[Firebringer]

The point was to think about what players' scum motivations might have been in the DW / non-DW vote.

So whats your real reads list?

[DarknessB]

So whats your real reads list?

I've pretty much given it to you in like three different posts, but here it is again:

Town: Toadette, RLVG, MattZed
Middle Ground: Firebringer, GameFreak, Shifty (on account of null)
Leaning Scum: Mikecall
Scum: secondpassing, yzb25

[yzb25]

The fact that yzb strongly town-reads secondpassing despite his very odd reads list concerns me.

I also note that yzb says I am scum because I am not transparent and then admits he doesn't have a fucking clue about RLVG and characterizes him as more Town-sided.

You are aware that people are well-aware of the "contributors get seen as Town" meta, right? You're basically saying, if someone contributes, they can't be scum? Good luck to you in games vs. Helz...

Noone cares if the conclusions of my reads "concern" you. You don't like Secondpassing because he's inconsistent and illogical with some of what he says. These don't classify as scumtells to me though, because these are all traits that town (esp. newer towns, no offense SP) often have.

I don't see how the fact I said I see you as SLIGHT SCUM for a VALID REASON links to the fact I ADMIT TO BEING UNSURE. Did you just stick a random "then" in the sentence? Obviously if I express insecurity in my reads, I'm saying "okay take this one with a pinch of salt".

I'm not implying they can't be scum. I'm implying it's less likely, for reasons that should be obvious. This was what I was talking about, you're taking what I'm saying completely out of proportion. But I don't even see THIS as scumtells, I feel like you're just pissed at me but I don't know why.

[Thornholt]

Omg OoO! I feel like such a spastic lol.

Anyway, my point for number 2 wasn't so much that the doctor missed the heal if 2 is the case, it's that the mafia took a huge risk by assuming doctor would try some huge WIFOM bullshit and heal someone else. Anyway, any doctor that tries that kind of WIFOM bullshit is a bad doctor and should feel ashamed of themselves.

But I don't wanna give up on this theory xD.

Do tailings work even if they come after LD's touches? Because I was under the impression LD's actual kill happened last due to the rolecard.

LD kill indeed comes last OoO is a bit ambiguous. Feel free to ask questions about it. Let me put out there that setup questions may be asked through PM as well.

LD'touch happen during the day even though list is given at night. The kill happens last though. Kills always happen last unless roleblocked. The cult member sent to kill can also be roleblocked in the same way.

Night actioms happen then kills happen

I hope I made OoO a bit clearer

[DarknessB]

Noone cares if the conclusions of my reads "concern" you. You don't like Secondpassing because he's inconsistent and illogical with some of what he says. These don't classify as scumtells to me though, because these are all traits that town (esp. newer towns, no offense SP) often have.

I don't see how the fact I said I see you as SLIGHT SCUM for a VALID REASON links to the fact I ADMIT TO BEING UNSURE. Did you just stick a random "then" in the sentence? Obviously if I express insecurity in my reads, I'm saying "okay take this one with a pinch of salt".

I'm not implying they can't be scum. I'm implying it's less likely, for reasons that should be obvious. This was what I was talking about, you're taking what I'm saying completely out of proportion. But I don't even see THIS as scumtells, I feel like you're just pissed at me but I don't know why.

Let me pull a MattZed here:

"no one cares what you think" (ad hominem)
"giving aggressively poor and unjustified reads doesn't catch me as scummy"
"not sure if you are scum"
"why are you pushing me"

[DarknessB]

Let me pull a MattZed here:

"no one cares what you think" (ad hominem)
"giving aggressively poor and unjustified reads doesn't catch me as scummy"
"not sure if you are scum"
"why are you pushing me"

That was actually kind of fun -- now I know why MattZed does that all the time, lol.

[yzb25]

You're arguing that Spruance showed transparency? He was basically like "vote for this guy, he's scum" (sans any reason) and he jumped on trains at the end of the day without any votes (like Shifty). Reading the rest of your post, but just wanted to highlight this off the bat. If you are suggesting I act more like Spruance, we really have different ideas of what good townplay is...

I wasn't highlighting Spruance as excellent townplay in all scenarios. I was making a point that it was mostly readable what he was thinking when he was thinking it. He had a clear line of development in terms of his thoughts throughout the game, which made the townread on him reliable. Obviously beyond this he wasn't MLG xD

[Firebringer]

I wasn't highlighting Spruance as excellent townplay in all scenarios. I was making a point that it was mostly readable what he was thinking when he was thinking it. He had a clear line of development in terms of his thoughts throughout the game, which made the townread on him reliable. Obviously beyond this he wasn't MLG xD

Pretty clear line?
The guy just kept screaming "Lets town block" and that "Lets lynch Mikecall"

I mean, I don't know how thats clear development of thoughts, thats just repeating thoughts.

[DarknessB]

I wasn't highlighting Spruance as excellent townplay in all scenarios. I was making a point that it was mostly readable what he was thinking when he was thinking it. He had a clear line of development in terms of his thoughts throughout the game, which made the townread on him reliable. Obviously beyond this he wasn't MLG xD

We're getting a little bit off-topic here, I am going to respectfully disagree. Spruance's posts basically just said "do this because I think X is Town and Y is scum" without any actual explanation. Look at any of the following:

If you are town please do not troll... Deathworlds is obviously town and mikecall is obviously not... What else is there to discuss?

death I hate to do this but I will vote you for conspiracy if you do not vote Mikecall.

It is for your own good.

If you truly are town vote mikecall

deathworlds, yzb, and toadette answer the call to lynch the scum and not the town! Open your eyes and see Mikecall as a member of the mafia

-vote DarknessB

Why you gotta be so salty

He is being shifty

-vote shifty

Likely scum here

#For people who don't think death or yzb is scum...

I already did and so did other people. No one is seeing things for what they are though so reiterating them would be pointless

100% scum - Gamefreak, mikecall

If we don't lynch one of them today then I will laugh

I wouldn't call this transparent at all -- transparent is explaining WHY you think someone is Town or scum.

[Mikecall]

We're getting a little bit off-topic here, I am going to respectfully disagree. Spruance's posts basically just said "do this because I think X is Town and Y is scum" without any actual explanation. Look at any of the following

I wouldn't call this transparent at all -- transparent is explaining WHY you think someone is Town or scum.

With his main focus being on me. <--- Why I was saying to him before to try and state why I was evil and everything.

[yzb25]

That was actually kind of fun -- now I know why MattZed does that all the time, lol.

please don't make a habit of it. I'm used to you being nice to me. T_T

These things piss me off because they make such little effort to defend their own positions that the position somehow feels unattackable. For example, in n.o.2 you've completely avoided the fact you misused "then" to make your sentence look like it had a logical flow.

1) It's not an ad hominem. It's you who's strawmanning. We care what you THINK, but not what "concern"s you, you 30yo woman :P
2) Mattzed at least tries to make it look like his quote things link to what the original person said.
3) Perfect representation of my internal thoughts.
4) Perfect representation of my internal thoughts.

[yzb25]

Pretty clear line?
The guy just kept screaming "Lets town block" and that "Lets lynch Mikecall"

I mean, I don't know how thats clear development of thoughts, thats just repeating thoughts.

He couldn't logic at all, I agree. And he only stated his logic behind lynching Mikecall once.

I was more referring to his feelings n all that shit:

1) At first he wasn't taking anything seriously, but upon being scalded he started trying
2) However, he ultimately stayed as bad as he was, because he wasn't listening to the advice of others
3) He floated off onto his own island because he wasn't properly engaging people on their level. He internalized more and more, but it was obvious he was trying to control the votes.
4) He gave up.

You obviously don't have to be so unstable, but you can still show your "inner self" clearly to others as town. Obviously, whether people choose to believe whether that is your true "inner self" is another matter, but you can still try.

Anyway, yes this is off-topic. We can discuss game strategy post-game.

[GameFreak]

I indeed find it really weird you allign yourself with Spruance, is it because he was TPR ?

even calling it "excellent townplay", he was useless

[yzb25]

LD kill indeed comes last OoO is a bit ambiguous. Feel free to ask questions about it. Let me put out there that setup questions may be asked through PM as well.

LD'touch happen during the day even though list is given at night. The kill happens last though. Kills always happen last unless roleblocked. The cult member sent to kill can also be roleblocked in the same way.

Night actioms happen then kills happen

I hope I made OoO a bit clearer

This is really significant! This means my theory works! And it ain't the frog kind of theory either! It's a really solid theory!

[yzb25]

I indeed find it really weird you allign yourself with Spruance, is it because he was TPR ?

even calling it "excellent townplay", he was useless

I was making one isolated point about his transparency, that was probably completely unintentional.

If you want an example of another player I'd brand as being transparent who's a little less... well... shit, I'd say FB this game. Not saying I see right through him and see that he's confirmed town, but he's got a clearly, consistent, open town personality. Having an open, trasparent personality makes it easier for town to figure things out, and harder for scum to fake things. Hence it's a very pro-town thing to do.

[SuperJack]

So Calix was slipping and shit, and being called on, but it was treated by a joke.
Spunce did the "claim citizen when TRP" thing that new players do, and was most likely killed for it.
I wonder how many more slips and claims hidden in plain site exist.

[GameFreak]

@yzb

You make the weirdest defenses of people , he was plain useless. If you can't give us a sound argument as to why you come to your conclusions.
Nobody is going to listen. thats why Spruance got nobody to listen to him.

To me it seems more likely he was acting dumb to not get targetted at night. Seriously its probably LD who got him since why would you kill him.
You could easily have lynched him today for his shit behaviour.

[SuperJack]

Oh 0-o wow. Post #49 was horrible and nasty.

[Mikecall]

This is really significant! This means my theory works! And it ain't the frog kind of theory either! It's a really solid theory!

Well, that means my assumption from before, with lady death, cult and widower might of actually have more reliability than I thought.

[GameFreak]

I agree that Firebringer is transparent and i read him as town leaning. But he could be playing a good scum aswell.
Posting your thoughts on posts isn't hard. He's just willing to spend alot of time doing it.

[GameFreak]

Also what is with this OoO

Survivor is last ? What is he gonna do , put a vest on his dead body ?

[Firebringer]

Also what is with this OoO

Survivor is last ? What is he gonna do , put a vest on his dead body ?

Yeah that doesn't make much sense.

[Firebringer]

@yzb

You make the weirdest defenses of people , he was plain useless. If you can't give us a sound argument as to why you come to your conclusions.
Nobody is going to listen. thats why Spruance got nobody to listen to him.

To me it seems more likely he was acting dumb to not get targetted at night. Seriously its probably LD who got him since why would you kill him.
You could easily have lynched him today for his shit behaviour.

Agreed.

[yzb25]

Also what is with this OoO

Survivor is last ? What is he gonna do , put a vest on his dead body ?

The OoO is weird. The OoO is referring to when the killer VISITS - but the killer actually NKs at the end of the night.

Anyway, my point was purely that transparency is harder for scum, because you have to fake loads of thoughts on things. I wasn't defending Spruance or saying his play was great. He was purely an example of what I mean by "transparency".

[Firebringer]

Day 2 Vote Count 1:

RLVG (1 [L-5]): Firebringer
SuperJack (1 [L-5]): secondpassing
Mikecall (1 [L-5]): MattZed
MattZed (1 [L-5]): Mikecall

[Firebringer]

Mkecall definitely feels like the lynch to go today.

-vote Mikecall

[GameFreak]

I also wonder who the crier is. Simply spammed his keyboard but still made the effort to post it.

Or its some spooky message, don't think so though.

[Mikecall]

Mkecall definitely feels like the lynch to go today.

-vote Mikecall

You do forget, if we misslynch today, if 2 other towns die, then mafia and LD would have majority right?