S-FM 186: Firebringer's Improvised Game

[Hell Frog]

Position with Empathy was already stated, multiple times. You choose to ignore this.
I left TDL with mikeU, he has been busy with work. So it didn't get done. By the time I was awake and ready to get involved again, everyone was just awaiting TDL to post. He was already pressured and I felt that any opinion I have on him can wait.
My thought was to drag up the exact same thing I dragged up before, that you refused to acknowledge, only this time put in the connecting post and a vote with it.
No, you haven't seen town clearing or wolf hunting from me yet, you rarely do early game with me.

My read on TDL was independent from my read on Empathy. The fact that I echoed some opinions voiced by my other head and we have not so much as discussed it makes me feel like I was on the right track though. I am not sure how anything said here is an issue at all. If anything it expresses consistency and pointing to our consistent reasoning while justifying your lack of contribution in a post that seems focused to discrediting is kind of an interesting mix.

[Hell Frog]

School now. Back in a few hours.

Please respond to some of these posts though (@TDL and Nicolas Cage)

[Hell Frog]

Frog here - I just finished my calls. I'm super pissed atm. Anyone open for raw aggression, pile on.

[Spearheading Female Tank]

Frog here - I just finished my calls. I'm super pissed atm. Anyone open for raw aggression, pile on.

Nah we have another scapegoat m8,

[Spearheading Female Tank]

This really doesn't feel like a game with 16 players. Im active for once and i feel many of the normally active players/leader are
not doing shit at all.

Looking at Hell frog and Calette
and OrpZedWorld isn't even posting.

[Nicolas Cage]

This really doesn't feel like a game with 16 players. Im active for once and i feel many of the normally active players/leader are
not doing shit at all.

Looking at Hell frog and Calette
and OrpZedWorld isn't even posting.

I was told to also throw a spotlight on FunCall too. They've been hiding in the foreground for a long while. I mean Easter brake sure is busy Depending... but even I (with a kid and 40+ hours of work) still find time to jump on here and read through posts from time to time. ESPECIALLY Since there was even a vote on him when Mikecall was in the game observing (Made by you if I recall)

Anyone have any insight on this behaviour? Or am I looking into it too harshly?

[TheDarkestLight]

This really doesn't feel like a game with 16 players. Im active for once and i feel many of the normally active players/leader are
not doing shit at all.

Looking at Hell frog and Calette
and OrpZedWorld isn't even posting.

You see, they are active and contribute more when they're town, but they aren't so they must be scum. And I mean, I'm using the same logic they used on me so it must be right.

In all honesty, this is true, you would think hydras of active players would be super active. I was originally worried that it would be neigh impossible to keep up with this game, but that's not the case.

[Nicolas Cage]

Frog here - I just finished my calls. I'm super pissed atm. Anyone open for raw aggression, pile on.

[Hell Frog]

Helz-
Class was canceled so I should be around for the rest of the night : )

You see, they are active and contribute more when they're town, but they aren't so they must be scum. And I mean, I'm using the same logic they used on me so it must be right.

In all honesty, this is true, you would think hydras of active players would be super active. I was originally worried that it would be neigh impossible to keep up with this game, but that's not the case.

Nigga... I just posted a ton about why I shifted focus to you. Nowhere in there did I say anything about your activity level. That has nothing at all to do with my poke.

Once again, Could you please respond to my post?

[Funcall]

I completely forgot I had things to do here. Uh, hi?

Hey Calette, I have nothing to contribute. I have not a single original thought in my brain.

I do mirror the thoughts that TDL was buddying. It didn't seem right to me.

Blah.

Go away Necklace Cage.

[OrpZedWorlds]

neutral hunting is aids.

scum hunting is elite.

I'm not going to overload my posts with IIoA other than this:

When you see scum flailing brilliantly, why would it make sense to go:
VILLAGE! RAISE YOUR PITCH FORKS, LET'S GO FOR *insert scapegoat here*

kill yourself.

reading through btw. on page 8 (fucking teammates set it to 50 per page >:C)

[Funcall]

I was told to also throw a spotlight on FunCall too. They've been hiding in the foreground for a long while. I mean Easter brake sure is busy Depending... but even I (with a kid and 40+ hours of work) still find time to jump on here and read through posts from time to time. ESPECIALLY Since there was even a vote on him when Mikecall was in the game observing (Made by you if I recall)

Anyone have any insight on this behaviour? Or am I looking into it too harshly?

I've been reading. Its been very interesting to watch the developments. I still think that Empathy is the Neut.
Judging harshly? All our posts either look forced(Mike), or hold nothing of interest at all(Me)

[Funcall]

kill yourself.

reading through btw. on page 8 (fucking teammates set it to 50 per page >:C)

I know how it feels, I had to change the text editor back to raw, apparently my teammate likes the rich one. It doesn't work on my phone. so I had to change it back.

I'll post a giant table full of chances of winning soon enough.

[Hell Frog]

I completely forgot I had things to do here. Uh, hi?

Hey Calette, I have nothing to contribute. I have not a single original thought in my brain.

I do mirror the thoughts that TDL was buddying. It didn't seem right to me.

Blah.

Go away Necklace Cage.

My push on TDL is much more related to his gap in reasoning and how he town read the player rather than just buddying.

[Hell Frog]

I know how it feels, I had to change the text editor back to raw, apparently my teammate likes the rich one. It doesn't work on my phone. so I had to change it back.

I'll post a giant table full of chances of winning soon enough.

I don't think its productive to try to estimate chances of winning when we do not even know what roles are in the game. There are much better things you could do with your time.

[Funcall]

I don't think its productive to try to estimate chances of winning when we do not even know what roles are in the game. There are much better things you could do with your time.

(Its what Mikecall does to look productive. Prepare for it)

[Hell Frog]

(Its what Mikecall does to look productive. Prepare for it)

Let me do it for you here then.

You take known TPR's (X) and multiply it by the known amount of scum in ratio to the TPR preforming a successful action then add that to a 30% chance of successful lynch and calculate the KPN across each day. So:

(X*???)+.3 for each day phase with -2 players per day and you end up with nothing because we have no information : )

[Spearheading Female Tank]

You will have to explain. I just kinda skimmed the thread but I did not really take note of my other head using the same logic 3 more times after my push on TDL

You said Calette, RLVG, and Empathy are Town.

Empathy is a Village Edwin and while I'm leaning on dumb, there's nothing that displays them as Town. Have you seem then do anything other than OMGUS voting and whining about people hating them? Exactly; they have the highest post count, and no scumhunting or useful discussion at all.

RLVG made a multiquote and then a coupel of "I'm here" posts.

Calette has posted a huge ammount of fluffs, and besides a couple of pokes, hasn't really focused on anyone but Empathy.

I don't see how you can accuse anyone of townreading others for no good reason, and proceed to scumread them because of that a couple of pages before doing the same thing with 3 players who noone would call "confirmed Town" at this point. Of course, this makes sense if you are scum, since as soon as you clear someone from being the neutral, you can say with certainty that a player is Town.

If TDL is scummy for doing that with one player, then, by that logic, you should be the scummiest player around right now.

[TheDarkestLight]

My push on TDL is much more related to his gap in reasoning and how he town read the player rather than just buddying.

I explained perfectly well the logic behind it, and I don't see how you can't understand it, even though your partner goes around pushing reads onto everyone. Guess since your partner is doing what I'm doing, that means your account is scum, huh?

Your account is being horribly hypocritical, that is why your push is trash now.

[Hell Frog]

You said Calette, RLVG, and Empathy are Town.

Empathy is a Village Edwin and while I'm leaning on dumb, there's nothing that displays them as Town. Have you seem then do anything other than OMGUS voting and whining about people hating them? Exactly; they have the highest post count, and no scumhunting or useful discussion at all.

RLVG made a multiquote and then a coupel of "I'm here" posts.

Calette has posted a huge ammount of fluffs, and besides a couple of pokes, hasn't really focused on anyone but Empathy.

I don't see how you can accuse anyone of townreading others for no good reason, and proceed to scumread them because of that a couple of pages before doing the same thing with 3 players who noone would call "confirmed Town" at this point. Of course, this makes sense if you are scum, since as soon as you clear someone from being the neutral, you can say with certainty that a player is Town.

If TDL is scummy for doing that with one player, then, by that logic, you should be the scummiest player around right now.

I am Helz

This is a Hydra. There is 2 heads. I have been very clear that the push on RLVG was me. That those other posts were Frog. You are looking at contradictions between 2 different people with independent thoughts. We decided before this game started not to coordinate in real time as the game was progressing so that we could each have our own independent perspectives. In every game I try to identify skilled town so I can bounce my reads off them and see what they noticed or how they read the same posts in different ways. Because I 100% know Frog is town and he 100% knows I am town we are going to exploit this to our advantage every night. With that said-

I never said I town read Calette, RLVG, or Empathy. Of those slots the only one I voiced thoughts on was Empathy and that was a double read which was situational speculation if you could even call it a read.

I have 10 kinds of hell reading RLVG. I admit it every game we play. I have low confidence in my ability to read that players alignment. He does a great job at masking his alignment which also ends up screwing him over as often as it helps him.

Let me be very clear and put this in big words.
I am not poking at TDL because he townread Empathy
Its kind of obnoxious that I have to keep saying this and its not even spaced out. I have probably said it multiple times just on this page. Please stop saying that is the basis of my read. Its borderline a strawman play and is a total misrepresentation of my push on TDL.

Admit this fact and lets keep this interaction going. I have kinda given up on pushing TDL and Nick for productive conversation. At least this little exchange could make some progress if you will keep up with it.

[Spearheading Female Tank]

What are you poking him for then.

[Hell Frog]

I explained perfectly well the logic behind it, and I don't see how you can't understand it, even though your partner goes around pushing reads onto everyone. Guess since your partner is doing what I'm doing, that means your account is scum, huh?

Your account is being horribly hypocritical, that is why your push is trash now.

No. Its trash because apparently people can not read and keep cutting my push down to the fact you townread empathy. Sure there was something opportunistic in that. But that is nothing damning. Its kinda null really. Please read Post #495 again

Its not about what you do, its about how you do it. Precieved intentions behind the actions define the alignment tell. I feel like I have been very clearly pushing my reasoning. If you need me to draw it out and explain it in another way or something let me know. But I am getting slightly frustrated that people keep trying to cut my argument down to something that silly.

[Spearheading Female Tank]

I already explained that when I say "you", I mean the hydra as a whole.

Anyway.

My push on TDL is much more related to his gap in reasoning and how he town read the player rather than just buddying.

Frog did townread 3 players. He literally made a "these people are Town" post and listed them there.
Based on your logic, we should push you for it. I am doing that, along with the reasons I've previously listed, none of which have been addressed.

[Empathy17]

Yeah, as long as we are continued to be called dumb, villiage idiot, etc. etc. despite the fact I put effort into the game, then you better expect I won't do shit. If you want to lynch us for it, so be it. Then town can lose and I move on to another game.

Funcall is neutral hunting-scummy as shit and this is likely scum just based on extremely passive play and not much else except neutral hunting.

I'm fine keeping my vote where it is because TDL is pretty much on defense ever since he "got lynched."

Also, what happened is my accout-SilverWolf-I'm a she BTW-posted here as a hydra slip and put down a vote. After that, I quoted it and revoted in hydra as that is always how I've had to resolve it before in order for the vote to count.

I'm new here and not used to the way things work and Toadette decided to be nasty about it and no I don't expect to be walked on eggshells but I do expect NOT to be treated like that. It's disgusting and antitow as hell. It divides town and then what? Scum wins. So unless that hydra is scum, there was no need for that shit. Oh BTW, Toadette was the exact same way towards me in the last game-she was scum. So keep this in mind.

~SilverWolf

[Hell Frog]

What are you poking him for then.

Its the fact that he appeared to be looking for a reason to call the slot town. That he justified this read with backtracking.

No one loves me, that's why I'm alone.

Here are some notes on the more prominent players.

Empathy is town, the first post was simply too out there and I doubt a scum would ever post "I'm Miller" on the very first post of the game, that's just stupid. The current votes seem to be on the basis of the miller claim or the lack of skill/desire for assistance from the Hydra. Skill does not make alignment.

Calette is a null read. I don't care how much they contribute and scumhunt, scumhunting alone does not make a town. Scum can scumhunt and then everyone instantly reads them as town for this, which is pathetic. Now, it's early in the game and I haven't noticed anything inherently scummy from this individual either, so null for now.

Tank is posting opinions that I personally believe a scum would have, such as how a Miller wouldn't claim because "A town shouldn't be attracting the attention of the cop", well that's a load of bullshit because it isn't up to them, it's up to the cop. When I'm a Cop I check null reads, not town or scum reads, yet that's me, not anyone else. Some people might have other ways of going about it, and the other said reasons include voting Calette with no explanation, and accusing them of needing hydra support.

Well, early on I think votes without reason are perfectly valid. Conversations need to be started and votes can do that, also, as for the "relying on the Hydra to give reasoning" doesn't really make much sense to me when it comes to scum arguments, as it's still the same account, and same role, it's not like you're talking to a differently aligned person.

Also, the hydra mechanic I think gives me an advantage as with two or three people, it only takes one to mess up to ruin everything, and although I don't have two or three separate brains coming up with ideas and making post count absurd, I also don't need to worry about having internal conflicts on what to do.

'Too stupid of a play to be scummy' argument with flat out calling the slot town. This is very generous to say the least and at the exact same time as he gave an easy town peg he turns around and is very critical on other slots.

I was hoping for some clear headed individual who was calm and collected, and then... this.

Calling people idiots is not a way to get anything across, no matter how convincing your argument is people won't listen most of the time if you go around calling them "idiots who need to fuck off". Also, don't play Mafia if you can't handle people being "assholes". It's the internet, who gives a fuck what they say or think?

Now then, as to the actual reasoning behind the claim, I actually fully agree. Where I sometimes play the Miller is supposed to claim to avoid said investigation, which isn't exactly something we do here. Sites have differing playstyles, and I have seen the Miller claim style on other sites, which is why I don't particularly find it scummy, especially considering said players on this hydra spend a good deal of time on other sites. As much as I hate meta, it's kinda just simple two plus two logic.

Here, he semi clears the slot simply by saying 'I agree that the miller is suppose to claim to avoid investigation'. Notable logic gap is that a role claiming to avoid investigation is a potential scum play. In his next post he semi defended Empathy again pushing against Calette who was pushing on Empathy.

That's literally garbage. I bet you'd call it "pressure", but it's not much pressure when you even go out to say "I wouldn't lynch you", it's like you want to lynch just for the purpose of lynching.
Voting someone and then literally saying you will vote someone but not lynch them is scummy as fuck.

-vote OrpZedWorlds

+1 scum point.

Pressure is pointless when they literally say they won't lynch them.

Then he votes on OrpZedWorlds for openly admitting its a pressure vote and he does not intend to lynch calling it a scum play. Thats not a scum play. Its just an inexperienced play.

Yay, I got lynched.

Anyways, let me address the accusations and then the people responsible.

1: My town read on Empathy was based on typical plays from other sites, and considering the two in the hydra, I assumed it was a normal town move, as I know places where it is. It was a likely conclusion, and I don't see the logic in thinking I have more info, but it was me simply saying how I saw them at the time.

2; Meta! The best reason to lynch someone. Apparently I only contribute when I'm scum, well, using meta to combat meta... In FM XVIII I was FM Morgan and was found to be a very town player until I was converted. In FM XX I was FM Jace Beleran and was pro-town until I got converted (I'm bad with conversions). And then in FM Book Three I was FM Zack, the Avatar, and I was pro-town until I died, although in the latter I was in my "day one sucks" stage.

Now for the people.

Tank: I didn't hard scum read this person, I just called him out on having weak reasons as to why Empathy is scum, and his reasoning only followed the meta part, the opposite of what Sen says he would do.

Calette: More meta, I can meta too. Both sides aren't as aggressive as normal. What, you wanna not stick out as much?

Hell Frog: You've done shit really, other than brag about your skill, try to give others "strategies" and give weak reasons as to why a specific person is scum.

SW: Splitting this hydra, this person just threw a vote at me, putting me to L-1 before I even get a chance to respond to the train. Scummy.

Ika: Oh hammer. Typical ika fast hammering. Doesn't make it less scummy.

Empathy: Both heads were super scummy, gonna need to reread older posts when I get home.

And now here. All of a sudden that reasoning flipped. Its no longer 'Too scummy to be a scum move' or 'a logical move to avoid wasting an invest action.' Now its 'town read on Empathy was based on typical plays from other sites' and the post ends with 'Empathy: Both heads were super scummy, gonna need to reread older posts when I get home.'

Tell me you guys can see this change? All of a sudden he got pressure and his claimed reasoning flips as well as his entire read going from 'this slot is town' to 'both heads were super scummy'

I hope this clears it up.

[Hell Frog]

^TLDR version:

TDL contradicted his reasoning for his read and flipped his read after getting pressured. This is not damning but it is of real note that I REALLY hope you guys can understand and agree with.

[TheDarkestLight]

No. Its trash because apparently people can not read and keep cutting my push down to the fact you townread empathy. Sure there was something opportunistic in that. But that is nothing damning. Its kinda null really. Please read Post #495 again

Its not about what you do, its about how you do it. Precieved intentions behind the actions define the alignment tell. I feel like I have been very clearly pushing my reasoning. If you need me to draw it out and explain it in another way or something let me know. But I am getting slightly frustrated that people keep trying to cut my argument down to something that silly.

So, you just "think there is a chance I was scum/neut trying to communicate/buddy with the other"?

If that's the case then hey, I guess since there is "A chance you are scum" I should start a train you?

I see that there is a "chance" that Frog's townreads were bullshit attempts to make himself appear town when he is really scum. So should I vote you?

[TheDarkestLight]

^TLDR version:

TDL contradicted his reasoning for his read and flipped his read after getting pressured. This is not damning but it is of real note that I REALLY hope you guys can understand and agree with.

I flipped my read on Empathy due to the horrible voting. Nice to know being put to L-1 and hammered isn't a good enough reason to change a read.

[Nicolas Cage]

The comments where about the votes on him not the whole read.

I copied and pasted the Miller thing from mafiascum wiki.

[OrpZedWorlds]

lol at scum vs neutral.

[TheDarkestLight]

lol at scum vs neutral.

Care to explain this? Ambiguity isn't pro-town.

[OrpZedWorlds]

lol at scum vs neutral.

To clarify, I think it's fucking hilarious that one of my top scum reads (TDL and empathy) is fighting my top neutral read (Hell Frog).

-vote Empathy17

[Hell Frog]

So, you just "think there is a chance I was scum/neut trying to communicate/buddy with the other"?

If that's the case then hey, I guess since there is "A chance you are scum" I should start a train you?

I see that there is a "chance" that Frog's townreads were bullshit attempts to make himself appear town when he is really scum. So should I vote you?

Once again, Not what I am saying at all..

[Nicolas Cage]

To clarify, I think it's fucking hilarious that one of my top scum reads (TDL and empathy) is fighting my top neutral read (Hell Frog).

-vote Empathy17

You on crack cocaine?

[OrpZedWorlds]

You on crack cocaine?

Tons of it.

I'm dead serious about my reads btw.

[Nicolas Cage]

And empathy is....what? The third Scum?

Gg.

[Spearheading Female Tank]

All of a sudden that reasoning flipped. Its no longer 'Too scummy to be a scum move' or 'a logical move to avoid wasting an invest action.' Now its 'town read on Empathy was based on typical plays from other sites' and the post ends with 'Empathy: Both heads were super scummy, gonna need to reread older posts when I get home.'

He had already mentioned the "plays from pther sites" part earlier. In fact, you just quoted it in your reply.

As for calling them scummy, I think that's just reasonable after someone quickhammers you in the middle of the day, accidentaly or not.

There's certainly a bit of inconsistence there, but it's far from being a strong enough reason to push for a lynch or say he's scum.

[Empathy17]

I flipped my read on Empathy due to the horrible voting. Nice to know being put to L-1 and hammered isn't a good enough reason to change a read.

You were put at L-1. You were NOT hammered. I explained it twice now.

~SilverWolf

[Hell Frog]

Tons of it.

I'm dead serious about my reads btw.

What makes you scum read Empathy and TDL? I would ask about your read on me but Lawls- I dont give a fuck : )

[Empathy17]

-vote Funcall

[Hell Frog]

He had already mentioned the "plays from pther sites" part earlier. In fact, you just quoted it in your reply.

As for calling them scummy, I think that's just reasonable after someone quickhammers you in the middle of the day, accidentaly or not.

There's certainly a bit of inconsistence there, but it's far from being a strong enough reason to push for a lynch or say he's scum.

I agree. I was kind of upset when I came back and saw TDL was hammered based on my poke. I do not think these factors warrant a lynch which is why I have not put a vote back on him. But its a point I want to draw out to gain attention before moving on to another subject. It has been kind of frustrating to see my reasoning constantly misrepresented.

[Spearheading Female Tank]

Guys, go take a look at all of OrpZedWorlds' posts.

[Empathy17]

I agree. I was kind of upset when I came back and saw TDL was hammered based on my poke. I do not think these factors warrant a lynch which is why I have not put a vote back on him. But its a point I want to draw out to gain attention before moving on to another subject. It has been kind of frustrating to see my reasoning constantly misrepresented.

As an FYI, I'm a she-SilverWolf is female.

TIA

pedit-Orp could be neutral

[Spearheading Female Tank]

pedit-Orp could be neutral

That's what I'm thinking. At the very least, that's the impression they want to give.

[TheDarkestLight]

You were put at L-1. You were NOT hammered. I explained it twice now.

~SilverWolf

Putting at L-1 was a scummy move, and your other half clearly expressed desire to lynch me as shown by his vote.

[Empathy17]

Putting at L-1 was a scummy move, and your other half clearly expressed desire to lynch me as shown by his vote.

ika hasn't been onsite all day-he's working a double shit

I explained this already. I accidentally posted in my SilverWolf account and requoted and revoted in empathy account. I've always had to do that in hydra games in the past because the vote by the non-player doesn't count. I had no idea it would result in a "lynch"

~SilverWolf

[Empathy17]

ika hasn't been onsite all day-he's working a double shit

I explained this already. I accidentally posted in my SilverWolf account and requoted and revoted in empathy account. I've always had to do that in hydra games in the past because the vote by the non-player doesn't count. I had no idea it would result in a "lynch"

~SilverWolf

Change shit to shift-LOL, nice typo

[Spearheading Female Tank]

I am not poking at TDL because he townread Empathy

I ask why you are poking him then and this is your answer ...

Its the fact that he appeared to be looking for a reason to call the slot town. That he justified this read with backtracking.

Look man i'm townreading you but you continue to be inconsistent

[OrpZedWorlds]

And empathy is....what? The third Scum?

Gg.

Are you implying you know who scum are?

[Spearheading Female Tank]

I'm off for the day,
i don't know if Sen will continue (we've both been posting atm btw)

Paladin hasn't shown up yet.