S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[secondpassing]

-vote Gingerape

[Never Unlucky]

Think about it from my perspective though. Mafia knows I am not lying, only town have to truly question me. If you are mafia, you know I am earnest.

You forget to mention the 'unless' : If after all you are scum and are the traitor, you do not know you your teammates are, and your teammates do not know who you are.
In that case no one knows if you're being honest.

Calix and I will have the most posts per day of players here. We will influence others and try to lead in some way, and it is in scums best interest to join the ride while not looking like they are doing that. You said yourself good luck lynching calix, and it is the same with me. Getting on calix's good side, and then being with duck the whole way through is going to set you into a strong town position regardless of your alignment. If you are mafia you know I will be receiving a town role tonight, and my play on day 2 will display town. It is better for you to be like... his play was so pro town, I was with him the whole way! This is why I think if you are mafia it is a sneaky and good play to implant yourself with the vocal hard to eliminate towns. Not to mention the bodyguard potential makes removing hard to lynch towns even more difficult to do.[/QUOTE]

You're fucking asking everyone to suck your dick.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Good.



Yes, I knew for a fact that it was false, but refuting your line of thought with "Wrong, I am town." just isn't going to convince anyone but myself.



If RLVG is town, are you scum? Or do you still keep the window open for a PotentialTown vs town? I personally appreciated that RLVG went against your claim as he was the only one to doubt it and call you out for it (Kovath doubted it if I'm not mistaken, but he never confronted you on this angle). Scum don't tend to go against the wave this early on.

In retrospect it's weird that everyone 'accepted' your claim like it was cash.

Spoiler : Not game-related :

LOL, you keep on saying 'ask Kovath to corroborate this, that'. Has anyone ever asked him any of the 'this' and the 'thats'?

Mmk.



Yeah, no. That's what he did in Politico and in IC in which he made ISOs on players that were vastly town-read (Calix in IC, Unknown in POL) to give a sense of 'hey, I posted'.

Also, he killed the POLITICO game by NKing Calix. That's not honor.




I think trolling is more indicative of town. Whatever.

The alignments were based on one of the players having perfect information. If RLVG is town, he can't know my alignment therefore I am not sure. Mafia know my alignment and possibly even role better than I do as they are able to compare their 4 roles against what they could be up against.

I realize saying "ask this person" is really stupid, but I am a unique player. If I state in game "I am saying something as truth, and WIFOM does not apply", it is in fact always true. If you want an in game example look at day 1 end of qt.3.14 where firebringer and I had this argument. For example, if I openly come out and say "I would not night kill SuperJack, after he is night killed, no WIFOM bullshit" it is 100% accurate and never will be a lie. In 10,000 games of the mod I have never lied my alignment on day 1 except maybe 5-6 games. Can't do that in FM as you mentioned earlier obviously, but it is the same kind of thing.

I do not see this as Kovath stalling the game though, but being busy and having an awkward time fitting in. Killing calix in politico was the correct decision. You kill town's mouthpiece and then you take control and pick them apart one by one.

Depends on a case by case basis IMO. You can make an argument either way. In this particular case I read it as town. If I am wrong, I will pick up on it, and my reads should be crystal by mid day 2. 5-6 FM games, only 1 mafia has ever made it into my town circle past mid day2.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You forget to mention the 'unless' : If after all you are scum and are the traitor, you do not know you your teammates are, and your teammates do not know who you are.
In that case no one knows if you're being honest.

Why are you saying "and are the traitor" as if you know there is one in the game? If I am a scum traitor then yes you are correct nobody in the game knows my alignment. I made the assumption that being a traitor and amnesiac would be a waste and that I would not be given that role. In that same post I think I also mentioned that If I am town, I am likely a backup, deputy, or citizen. Although a bodyguard miller would be neat. Forces mafia to have a decision on whether or not to kill me and town has a decision to lynch me or let me try to get a save, and if I am mafia pigeon hole myself into keeping the most town read player alive.

You're fucking asking everyone to suck your dick.

How do you see this? It is a fact we post the most, and that lurkers will sheep. Mafia want to blend in and be on the good side of town, and they don't do that by backing other lurkers.

[secondpassing]

Calling out a shitty post =/= a defense of you. It was an attack on RLVG's shitty post and would have been done regardless of who he was talking to. Of course he disappears the moment I get on the thread

I don't buy his logic about the win conditions. Players cannot attempt to game-throw if they do not know what their win condition is.

The fact that RLVG/ Yuki (two suspicious players in Group 3) are both voting for Group 2 for spurious reasons makes me skeptical of the odds of lynching correctly if Group 2 is chosen.

This shade though. I do not understand this position taken against RLVG. I urge you not to alienate yourself with RLVG -had a reason but I deleted it on purpose-

Nah, I accept being called a null this time, my previous reason to vote group 2 and my plan was ruined by afk/lurkers. Going to change my plan

Definitely liking this plan Yukitaka-san.

Yeah

+1. Click the link to the post to see what this actually refers to. I could be trolling you.. don't hurt me when you click it!

From what I see of the mechanics, that is a possible outcome that can happen if town doesn't get their shit together within the next two days.

With regards to motivation, I'm referring to WHY you'd choose to bring up said point of all the things to discuss about mechanics. Context matters.

I don't hear any bad intent from that (RLVG's) post, did you? This is your own post link.

Question. Why do you consider Duck 'low-hanging fruit'? I don't think he's been MLed in a game before and he's not easy to deal with in general.

Well, I agree with the statement. I think a better evaluation would be that he (PLEASELEAVEDUCKK) paints himself as a victim to gain leverage/manipulate.

For the reasons detailed in my response to you, which you've covered in the rest of this response.
A Mafia unwittingly voting for a member of the Mafia =/= game-throwing. However you make a good point when you say that Duck is the only person who has talked about anything relating to hidden mechanics as of yet.
Yes, I'm going to clobber you over the head with an electric fan. Or I didn't like your initial post but not enough to legitimately scum-read you.

Doesn't equate.

Assuming Group 3 goes through, right now I'm looking to lynch between Gingerape and Never Unlucky I think.

Probably NU atm, I need to look again closely at his posts but there were some weird things I didn't like.

Townreading RLVG for his pushing against Duck, actually, and Yuki has done nothing to ping me yet.

Mind meld, mostly. Kovath does not ping me as scummy; however, I scum read Gingerape for tone and I'm mixed on Never Unlucky. I think it takes more time to read Never Unlucky though.

I'm not townreading him off his pushing because it was a push against the PL thing but for other reasons. See #309, basically little scum motivation in the push now that Duck's reversed his position + very easy for Mafia to have conformed with a "let's leave Duck alone" position like you and others have taken.

Duck is the unique outlier in regards to reads because of his claim. He's either Mafia and lying or literally a blank slate with no alignment. I'd rather read him tomorrow, and his not getting lynched reinforces that.

I like that you bring it up too, are you going to take it any further or just leave it hanging there?

Just going to sheep this and add something. I now scum read a null slot.
If he is a blank slate, his chances would have been exactly equal to random lynching.
But there is a chance that he is a mafia. I find little resistance going against this notion, so I actually think that him being accepted was planned out and supported by the mafia.
Going by his town and word choice, while I am inclined to believe him makes me think that he is more like the character I created for RLVG in his adventure quest.
Either enternally evil, or neutral.

From the way DUCKK is posting; however, his claim seems genuine.

Additional thought: DUCKK's play makes no sense if he was town. He has no reason to claim essentially neutral benign on day 1. And survivor/amnesiac claims should be lynched. To my dismay, he can't be lynched today.

I'm not some VCA expert, but there's >80% chance of scum being on the G3 wagon given that 4/5 members in the group have voted for it. Thus there is likely to be incentive for the scum to want that group chosen.

(unless RLVG is solo scum in G3)

I don't know wherever it's enough to make me reconsider though.

It's K I'll do it for you, but in the meantime I would like to hear your updated thoughts on players in G3.

[secondpassing]

From my reads list:

"Yuki - Gut tells me he's town, but I don't really find town motives behind his posts. I know you'll discredit me for this, but I think that he's too "dumb to be scum".
It felt weird that he called out Group 3 for not scum-hunting each other when he hasn't been doing it himself.
Ginger - Town tone, posts feel like IIOA, and I'm questioning the motives behind saying that Shapelog stole the "oh I didn't know how many scum there were, I am therefore town" thing from him."

Your post has me intrigued too. I realize that I consider both of these slots to be the same due to play style (Trolly) , yet I am giving Yuki a favorable read and not Ginger. Will reflect on that.

Could both be scum? I don't think so. I don't see why both would've voted their own group when Yuki is scum-read by most players. Scum-team!Yuki+Ginger would've pushed for another group imo.

Discredit? No. But why did you feel I would discredit you?

As for Yukitaka, I disagree. I find both my gut telling me he is town, and I see town intent behind his post.
1.Actively analyzes/scumhunts
2. Attitude
3. Early Complaining about Lurking (more of my personal view as to why this is a town-read in this context that'd I'd rather not explain)
4. Starts to fix formatting for the benefit of town- volunteers some extra information in parentheses after being called out on being unintelligible or something

Spoiler : Quotes :

I'm going to need to go back and view Gingerape. Or I can just question her after she returns, assuming she returns in the next few hours.

1. Please, all 15 of his post is (flowing the wind) which is absolutely scum, either lazy or just following other people idea and follow the lynch. Lazy and newbie A.F

2. The serious here is a joke: everyone in group 3 is scum-hunting to avoid being pick. Which is absolutely a joke. I'm not going anywhere and I don't intend to let this group slipped away

3.Eh...come on group 3, at least pretend to act like professional a bit dude v(o.o(<!

4. Can't find the quote, just imagine it's here.

[secondpassing]

Too dumb to scum is not a thing.

It is a thing, taken with context.

Also, I don't seem remember anything you have posted. Are there any points you would like to re-emphasize so that we can pay special attention to them?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Just going to sheep this and add something. I now scum read a null slot.
If he is a blank slate, his chances would have been exactly equal to random lynching.
But there is a chance that he is a mafia. I find little resistance going against this notion, so I actually think that him being accepted was planned out and supported by the mafia.
Going by his town and word choice, while I am inclined to believe him makes me think that he is more like the character I created for RLVG in his adventure quest.
Either enternally evil, or neutral.

From the way DUCKK is posting; however, his claim seems genuine.

Additional thought: DUCKK's play makes no sense if he was town. He has no reason to claim essentially neutral benign on day 1. And survivor/amnesiac claims should be lynched. To my dismay, he can't be lynched today.

Few points on this. First off I think secondpassing is town. He is looking past all of the window display and looking at the BEST mechanical lynch possible, which in fact was me, statistically.

You replaced so you probably didnt see, but I explained in detail why I am never town and faking, so I agree IF I am bullshitting, I am always mafia.

I am not claiming a neutral role, but it is the equivalent to an amnesiac and a miller so I am just using them for lack of a better word.

Tomorrow I will have a role, and you are free to make whatever case on me you wish.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

OH WAIT.

Secondpassing is in my group, and hes town as fuck. (I have a very good read on secondpassing. I think he can confirm this to some degree, but I can not post why at the current moment.)

This means SUPERJACK IS MAFIA, 90%+????. (assuming it isnt me, LOL.)

Group b:
Calix-town
TL- town
SP-town
Duck-please be town after town reading three other group members.
superjack-mafia


If I flip town tonight, superjack is almost always mafia.

Why you make me have to 1v1 my friend tomorrow game

[secondpassing]

Few points on this. First off I think secondpassing is town. He is looking past all of the window display and looking at the BEST mechanical lynch possible, which in fact was me, statistically.

You replaced so you probably didnt see, but I explained in detail why I am never town and faking, so I agree IF I am bullshitting, I am always mafia.

I am not claiming a neutral role, but it is the equivalent to an amnesiac and a miller so I am just using them for lack of a better word.

Tomorrow I will have a role, and you are free to make whatever case on me you wish.

Why did you feel the need to claim a technically neutral role? Let's look at it from both points of views.

As town, you would create a large distraction, and you could hope to put yourself off the lynch table. But those aren't the goals for town are they? The fact is, you did not claim miller, you claimed amnesiac. A miller knows their alignment, while a forced-amnesiac's is yet to be decided. Why do I put this "forced" in? Because a standard amnesiac would play much like a town would as it is in their best interests. So your play makes no sense as a town gambit.

As scum, it is very basic. You WIFOM your way to day 2, whereupon you switch the scrutiny off yourself.

If you really did get that as your rolecard, AND you are planning to play as if you are town... I can only conclude that you messed up.

[secondpassing]

You know what screw it.
I'm only going to color the posts I make that are extra special with light blue coloring.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Why did you feel the need to claim a technically neutral role? Let's look at it from both points of views.

As town, you would create a large distraction, and you could hope to put yourself off the lynch table. But those aren't the goals for town are they? The fact is, you did not claim miller, you claimed amnesiac. A miller knows their alignment, while a forced-amnesiac's is yet to be decided. Why do I put this "forced" in? Because a standard amnesiac would play much like a town would as it is in their best interests. So your play makes no sense as a town gambit.

As scum, it is very basic. You WIFOM your way to day 2, whereupon you switch the scrutiny off yourself.

If you really did get that as your rolecard, AND you are planning to play as if you are town... I can only conclude that you messed up.

I can tell you with 100% certainty a miller does not know their alignment in this case. The fact is I did not claim miller or amnesiac. What I was given is the equivalent of the two roles, so If you are saying I claimed amnesiac, I am not sure how you can say I am not claiming miller.

Why would I need to WIFOM to day 2.... I don't get lynched... and there was no pressure on me or anyone as the game had just started.

It is a play that does not make sense as either alignment, but if someone was dumb enough to do this, is always mafia.

I am playing as if I am a town currently, yes. Maybe it is a mistake, but I am playing the 71.4 vs 28.6% odds, and I think that it is correct. I really do not know what you would want someone in my slot to do. Do you just want me to afk day 1 since everything I do is NAI at best, or scumread at worst?

Mafia fake claim winning plays, my claim is not a winning play, it is a sad reality.

[secondpassing]

I can tell you with 100% certainty a miller does not know their alignment in this case. The fact is I did not claim miller or amnesiac. What I was given is the equivalent of the two roles, so If you are saying I claimed amnesiac, I am not sure how you can say I am not claiming miller.

Why would I need to WIFOM to day 2.... I don't get lynched... and there was no pressure on me or anyone as the game had just started.

It is a play that does not make sense as either alignment, but if someone was dumb enough to do this, is always mafia.

I am playing as if I am a town currently, yes. Maybe it is a mistake, but I am playing the 71.4 vs 28.6% odds, and I think that it is correct. I really do not know what you would want someone in my slot to do. Do you just want me to afk day 1 since everything I do is NAI at best, or scumread at worst?

Mafia fake claim winning plays, my claim is not a winning play, it is a sad reality.

Rolling with your forced-amnesiac roll and if you were planning to play town, I'm saying you should have just kept your mouth shut, but you chose not to.
Which is why I am now scum reading you.

[Titus]

Do you think yuki as scum would put up a better defense knowing there is a chance they will die now?

Also have you noticed anybody sticking up for them? I find it hard to believe none of the 3 mafia would be steering it away from yuki if he is mafia.

He is traitor. Plus FoS buddy vote townie. Plus deflections.

Pretty happy w my vote.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Rolling with your forced-amnesiac roll and if you were planning to play town, I'm saying you should have just kept your mouth shut, but you chose not to.
Which is why I am now scum reading you.

I play the way I play. I don't conform to town's utopia of how the game should go. It is retarded that I can play the most important day in the game perfectly and get punished by flipping the opposite of what I was doing. Also what do you think is going to happen if tomorrow someone claims a reversed check on me? I am either going to be grinning like a school girl or going to look like a fucking idiot when I go "I AM ACTUALLY LIKE THIS SPECIAL MILLER TYPE THING GUYS, NEW MECHANIC YEAH KNOW HAHAHAHAH" No. I am giving the town information I have now before it can fuck us over. It was early during the shitpost stage which if there is ever a time, it is then to introduce something important like that.

I can tell you with 28.6% certainty that you are correct on me.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

He is traitor. Plus FoS buddy vote townie. Plus deflections.

Pretty happy w my vote.

What did I miss that made you read him as traitor?

I have seen gingerape breadcrumb traitor, and neverunlucky act like he knows there is a traitor.

Why are neither of these two your traitor reads?

[secondpassing]

I play the way I play. I don't conform to town's utopia of how the game should go. It is retarded that I can play the most important day in the game perfectly and get punished by flipping the opposite of what I was doing. Also what do you think is going to happen if tomorrow someone claims a reversed check on me? I am either going to be grinning like a school girl or going to look like a fucking idiot when I go "I AM ACTUALLY LIKE THIS SPECIAL MILLER TYPE THING GUYS, NEW MECHANIC YEAH KNOW HAHAHAHAH" No. I am giving the town information I have now before it can fuck us over. It was early during the shitpost stage which if there is ever a time, it is then to introduce something important like that.

I can tell you with 28.6% certainty that you are correct on me.

You play the way you play. You don't conform to utopia, but I cannot neglect the possibility. I would consider lynching the sheriff is he is on the chopping block, would have to see who it was who did that. I assume it would be a mafia player, hanging low today, and trying to save your butt tomorrow. Or I expect a gambit tomorrow. Or I expect you to be town tomorrow. I'll leave it for tomorrow.

You can tell me with a 28.6% certainty, but it doesn't mean I believe it.

[JealousTL]

Could both be scum? I don't think so. I don't see why both would've voted their own group when Yuki is scum-read by most players. Scum-team!Yuki+Ginger would've pushed for another group imo.

This is a good point. I think that it is more likely that scum wagoned on G3 because of the fact that these two were the likely lynch suspects, meaning that by extension I have to think that they are less to be scum. Or at least, Yuki is, since they seem to have netted more derision than Gingerape. I concede that I am not a fan of either of them solely due to posting style, but that does not make either of them necessarily scum and (at least) I have to remind myself of that fact.

[secondpassing]

I now have enough information to create a reads-list. This is where I stand.

Titus- Don't remember any posts from this player aside from posting about votes. Would have been null, but my earlier self said scum.
Shapelog- Don't remember any posts from this player.
MattZed- Don't remember any posts from this player.
Klingoncelt- Nothing stands out aside from a blatant disregard for how others view her. Town
Alles_Paletti- Knows the game started. Hasn't posted since
Calix- Scum. Threw shade on my town read. Cannot detect a good intent from her. Scum.
JealousTL- Feel like he has something to hide. Could be his wording, which I can understand since I like wordy things. Cannot sense his intent = no intent. Great pressure target, but will conclude scum for now.
SuperJack- Hopefullly will post later. Town by POE.
PLZLEAVEDUCKK- Scum by mechanics/action choice
secondpassing- me
Gingerape- Scum, by gut will reread.
RLVG- Town, seemed genuine, but will need to reread.
Kovath- Town by his agreement with me. Will wonder if that will change. Am cautious.
Yukitaka Oni- Town. Strongest read.
Never Unlucky- Still mixed, I did not expect those answers from him earlier (like ten posts above or something)

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Going to sleep soon

-vote gingerape

[secondpassing]

Be back later. Also, will need to reexamine my Calix read due to my usual inaccuracy rate of my read on her.

[Kovath]

No one should be voting for Group 2 unless a slip occurs, just look at the player pool -- Calix, arguably the hardest player to lynch, Slayer, a pre-teen who probably forgot he's signed up for this game, Spruance, the lurking troll and dumb town, Duck, Mr. WIFOM, and Jealous whom we know few about.

Voting for G2 is basically saying you support a PL on SPruance and/or Slayer (Jealous maybe) and/or you want to flip the coin in regards to mckd's alignment.

I agree with this. Group 3 is composed of 0 new players/immigrants. It's a much better bet.

-vote Group 3

I actually am considering Group 2 to be a better group to lynch from since I town-read Jealous, leantown Calix and have faith in DUCK's claim. It basically leaves me with two policy lynch options. (In contrast, my group has 2 PL targets and 3 players who aren't strongly read by anyone.)

I want to know what changed from here to here, perhaps I missed something but I do want to hear it again anyways.

[JealousTL]

This is a good point. I think that it is more likely that scum wagoned on G3 because of the fact that these two were the likely lynch suspects, meaning that by extension I have to think that they are less to be scum. Or at least, Yuki is, since they seem to have netted more derision than Gingerape. I concede that I am not a fan of either of them solely due to posting style, but that does not make either of them necessarily scum and (at least) I have to remind myself of that fact.

Less likely* to be scum.

[JealousTL]

I now have enough information to create a reads-list. This is where I stand.

Titus- Don't remember any posts from this player aside from posting about votes. Would have been null, but my earlier self said scum.
Shapelog- Don't remember any posts from this player.
MattZed- Don't remember any posts from this player.
Klingoncelt- Nothing stands out aside from a blatant disregard for how others view her. Town
Alles_Paletti- Knows the game started. Hasn't posted since
Calix- Scum. Threw shade on my town read. Cannot detect a good intent from her. Scum.
JealousTL- Feel like he has something to hide. Could be his wording, which I can understand since I like wordy things. Cannot sense his intent = no intent. Great pressure target, but will conclude scum for now.
SuperJack- Hopefullly will post later. Town by POE.
PLZLEAVEDUCKK- Scum by mechanics/action choice
secondpassing- me
Gingerape- Scum, by gut will reread.
RLVG- Town, seemed genuine, but will need to reread.
Kovath- Town by his agreement with me. Will wonder if that will change. Am cautious.
Yukitaka Oni- Town. Strongest read.
Never Unlucky- Still mixed, I did not expect those answers from him earlier (like ten posts above or something)

Can't say I like a lot of these reads. In fact, I find them to be almost entirely opposite of what my leans are now, but my reads are by no means definite enough for me to make a list of this nature. In general, I find the justifications for many of these reads to be weak, and you've clearly not fully read the thread in its entirety. I would do that if I were you, as the game is still young.

Given the above, I don't feel the need to defend myself against you but if you have doubts, then I am surprised you haven't tried to open a dialogue with me or question me at all, which would be much more productive in my opinion.

[JealousTL]

Can't say I like a lot of these reads. In fact, I find them to be almost entirely opposite of what my leans are now, but my reads are by no means definite enough for me to make a list of this nature. In general, I find the justifications for many of these reads to be weak, and you've clearly not fully read the thread in its entirety. I would do that if I were you, as the game is still young.

Given the above, I don't feel the need to defend myself against you but if you have doubts, then I am surprised you haven't tried to open a dialogue with me or question me at all, which would be much more productive in my opinion.

Also you're pretty much giving SuperJack a PoE townread because... You suspect that the other three players in your group are scum, something that is impossible? I guess you have DUCK as R/G but still seems mostly R, hopefully I am understanding that correctly.

[Yukitaka Oni]

There was some shit talk going on a few pages back.

I tried to reply, but that was right when the thread got locked.

So I put it here.

Anyway, I'm not liking Yukitaka Oni's posts, can't say much about Kovath and Never Unlucky, so those 3 are my choices from this group.

-vote Yukitaka Oni

( btw, @Yukitaka Oni - what country are you from?)

Vietnam (fly away)

[Kovath]

I do not like NU. His heavier posts read as very non-confrontational to me - I seriously doubt that he is finding it so difficult to scumread anyone and it really doesn't come off as natural; Town should have no compunctions or hesitations about making conclusions, yet I remember for instance that thing about town tone vs. IIoA -> null read, a large number of nulls.

His recent reads list on our group:

Yuki - Gut tells me he's town, but I don't really find town motives behind his posts. I know you'll discredit me for this, but I think that he's too "dumb to be scum".
It felt weird that he called out Group 3 for not scum-hunting each other when he hasn't been doing it himself.
Ginger - Town tone, posts feel like IIOA, and I'm questioning the motives behind saying that Shapelog stole the "oh I didn't know how many scum there were, I am therefore town" thing from him.
Kovath - Politico-scum!Kovath (and IC-neutral!Kovath during day 2) kept his activity to a bare minimum due to RL events and flew under the town's radar. His inactivity this game feels like Déjà vu in that sense. Could be a coincidence.
Found his reasoning for town-reading RLVG unnatural, it felt like something Unknown would say.
RLVG - Well reasoned player whose posts I like. Didn't notice anything AI in his comments yet.

Not sure where the shift happened in regards to Gingerape. Part of it may just be due to lack of content (ex. the read on me) but I don't get a sense of conviction from this. Also, why was my townread reasoning unnatural and what does it mean, "something Unknown would say"?

He does a decent amount of busywork, asking players to give or explain their reads, though it feels a bit opportunistic to me (ex. response to RLVG comment about taking a small vacation). However, this was something I also read off him in IC when he was town so meh.

Basically despite his high volume of commenting and posting, a closer look at his comments and posts do not make me think he is really driving things or taking strong stances.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I feel like yuki is going to get lynched for his typing style and lack of contribution rather than the fact he is scummy. I do not think yuki is the correct lynch currently.


The two most vocal players in the game were town reading NU compared to his group, it is possible scum see this and were fine pushing group 3.

Contribution from ginger/kovath will be the most important in whether or not we get a successful hit today or not, IMO. Ginger has been very towny for me, but I can't overlook the obvious traitor breadcrumb which I fail to see any town motivation in or reason to do it in the first place.

Kovath and RLVG both going on me is interesting. Kovath is more questioning while RLVG is attacking and denying the claim. The first game I played with RLVG he tunneled me for 3 straight days based on a very similar scenario. (I breadcrumbed an evil role based on the setup RP) It seems like he is more focused on tunneling me rather than finding out my alignment. While I don't actually have an alignment to find out, he does not believe my claim so in his mind I should have an alignment to find. If this were the case we need to look at the agenda I am putting forward.

I have given almost exclusively town reads while only mentioning slightly scummy things people have done. I have been pushing the game forward (feel free to argue this point) in discussing optimal town play, trying to develop a strong town circle, and give us the best option for a hit. I picked a lynch group, and then was swayed that another group might be better. Look at how I wanted to lynch. You say I am playing against my win condition, BUT MY LYNCH TARGET MATCHES A NO ALIGNMENT PLAYER. I wanted to lynch someone I thought was not going to participate which is good for the game overall. When I noticed that people in RLVG's group were possibly scum based on several scummy things players had done, I literally flipped my reads MID POST. This shows a level of reevaluation that is not as often done by scum.

If you think I am scum I feel I have been pro-town and anti-mafia unless you can find motivation in my posts that says contrary.

Also, if you are sure I am scum you better be voting NU. I have scum read three people in group c, tried to Policy one of them, and town read never unlucky. While mafia are not going to make their alignment so black and white, it would be risky to push a group and then add fuel to existing mafia reads on my own partners.

Based on rlvg attacking the SETUP portion of my claim, and not MY ACTIONS after the claim, I have to decide whether this is the town rlvg who tunnels on me for stupid reasons, or if he is scum, I am town, and that he is trying to get me lynched based off his incorrect assumption that I am "low-hanging fruit" despite never being miss lynched. I am leaning towards, I don't know to be honest will have to re read his posts when I can think clearly and make a decision before end of day.

Kovath is interesting. We talk a lot outside of game so we know how each other play somewhat well. He knows that I was anticipating what he would do in the last Instant Mafia game, so if he is scum he would know what I expect of him. I am leaning towards him being busy and not wanting to touch me until tomorrow means he cares to learn my alignment. He knows how evident my town play is, and if I survive the night and see a town role, the whole world will know.


To wrap up my thoughts, as they have sort of shifted a little as I was typing this.

Kovath - I see town motivation in wanting me to be looked at tomorrow, he is moved to null again and I would not vote him.

RLVG - Tunneling town or Mafia who made a huge blunder with poor assumptions and is trying to pull a fast one based on terrible reasoning. I want to hear a lot more from him. Null, but heavily will swing to one side based on future posts.

Ginger- I need to go back and read some of her? latest posts while I was packing and traveling. I think the breadcrumbing was bad, but I also think her playing along with my analogy was as good as the breadcrumb was bad. Mafia want to derail discussion and will usually ignore stupid scenarios. She went out of her way to get our minds to reach a mutual understanding. I think if a mafia did entertain my stuff they would try to be more manipulative in doing so. I also want to hear a lot more from them.

Yuki - My personal experience with him is not weighted heavily as it is one game. I hated his start in both games, in Instant Mafia he stepped up his play. I do not think he is flailing like a mafia would, and I see the momentum against him as a likely miss lynch. I will consider voting him because he has not been towny and is thus is lynchable, but I really do not think this is going to work out well for town.

NU- I liked that they came in and interjected somewhat often. I did not see too much, and need to go back and reread this slot. I vaguely remember from memory sheeping calix? and being pretty accepting of me. These are pretty scummy, but he has had a town town, and I remember shaking my head yes when I was laying in my bed and scrolling through last night.

Do not think yuki is failing like a mafia would, voting for not being towny.
So town HAVE to play like town? What rule? Who's rule? Nobody. Why? Because people can play and ACT what they see fit for themselves. Basically the play style is NOT your business to judge. I am not one of those pansy pussy calling town to save me.

[JealousTL]

Do not think yuki is failing like a mafia would, voting for not being towny.
So town HAVE to play like town? What rule? Who's rule? Nobody. Why? Because people can play and ACT what they see fit for themselves. Basically the play style is NOT your business to judge. I am not one of those pansy pussy calling town to save me.

Well, if I understand you correctly, town should play in a manner that is in town's best interest... And that is a rule (play to win).

[secondpassing]

There are currently 19 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 18 guests)
secondpassing

I guess I'm not alone.

[secondpassing]

Can't say I like a lot of these reads. In fact, I find them to be almost entirely opposite of what my leans are now, but my reads are by no means definite enough for me to make a list of this nature. In general, I find the justifications for many of these reads to be weak, and you've clearly not fully read the thread in its entirety. I would do that if I were you, as the game is still young.

Given the above, I don't feel the need to defend myself against you but if you have doubts, then I am surprised you haven't tried to open a dialogue with me or question me at all, which would be much more productive in my opinion.

I have rotated my read on you by 100 degrees, but I will tell you why after you have answered this:

First in a response to you-
If you find that your leans are almost entirely opposite of what [your] leans are now, but [that your] reads are by no means definite enough for me to make a list of this nature-- can you clarify and elaborate on those reads? If you wish not to at this point, it is totally understandable. In fact, if you wish to take more time before passing judgment on people, I disagree with that playstyle but have no wish to discourage you from it.

Why do you suspect that I have not read the thread in its entirety? Do you suspect that I lack confidence in my reads or that I am missing critical information? Enlighten me if you would so kindly.


Now, as a test in progress, I conduct a progressing test:
I may or may not have randomly selected a couple players of interest to question you with. I trust that you either do not doubt my intent in asking this question, nor do you doubt my intent in general as you have yet to express such a fact. As that being, I am hoping to enlist you to help me find the scum along with me.


So please, tell me- how many of these players are scum, and which, if any?
Titus
MattZed
Gingerape
Kovath

[secondpassing]

@Quick If you would please create an additional countdown timer at the start post, that would be helpful. It would allow players to see their next deadlines.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Well, if I understand you correctly, town should play in a manner that is in town's best interest... And that is a rule (play to win).

Oh, you mean hey, let's talk all our plan IN THE FKING DAY CHAT SO THE SCUM CAN READ ALL PUR PLAN?
100% dumb
200% idiot
300% retard
There is a reason why MikeVipe told us to trust nobody. And it's the basic remind for ALL PLAYERS. Not acting like town the whole time and let scum put a bullet in your head like a snake loose it's head.
Remember the basic! Always stick to the shadow!

[Klingoncelt]

Think about it from my perspective though. Mafia knows I am not lying, only town have to truly question me. If you are mafia, you know I am earnest. Calix and I will have the most posts per day of players here. We will influence others and try to lead in some way, and it is in scums best interest to join the ride while not looking like they are doing that. You said yourself good luck lynching calix, and it is the same with me. Getting on calix's good side, and then being with duck the whole way through is going to set you into a strong town position regardless of your alignment. If you are mafia you know I will be receiving a town role tonight, and my play on day 2 will display town. It is better for you to be like... his play was so pro town, I was with him the whole way! This is why I think if you are mafia it is a sneaky and good play to implant yourself with the vocal hard to eliminate towns. Not to mention the bodyguard potential makes removing hard to lynch towns even more difficult to do.

This looks like
A): You're coaching Never Unlucky
B): You're trying to convince everyone that even though you don't know your alignment, you're definitely Town.

Declaring Calix to be unlynchably-charming Town Leader is bizarre. Calix's behavior this time is equally bizarre.

Talking about yourself when it's Group 3 we're lynching from is at best narcissistic.

I think you & Calix are Scum, but we can't lynch either of you 2 today. So y'all hush while we find & lynch your buddy.

[Klingoncelt]

Do you think yuki as scum would put up a better defense knowing there is a chance they will die now?

Also have you noticed anybody sticking up for them? I find it hard to believe none of the 3 mafia would be steering it away from yuki if he is mafia.

Umm... you are steering it away, aren't you?...

[JealousTL]

I have rotated my read on you by 100 degrees, but I will tell you why after you have answered this:


Why do you suspect that I have not read the thread in its entirety? Do you suspect that I lack confidence in my reads or that I am missing critical information? Enlighten me if you would so kindly.

100 degrees is an interesting description.

Largely because you say that you "can't remember any posts" from a few players who have indeed posted more than the minim (Titus, Shapelog to name two). Many of the other reads lack substance, something that could be intentional but in the context of my previous statement seems to be a reflection of how much time/effort you've invested in reading the game so far. With you being a (seemingly) more experienced player on this forum, I expect more.

Now, as a test in progress, I conduct a progressing test:
I may or may not have randomly selected a couple players of interest to question you with. I trust that you either do not doubt my intent in asking this question, nor do you doubt my intent in general as you have yet to express such a fact. As that being, I am hoping to enlist you to help me find the scum along with me.


So please, tell me- how many of these players are scum, and which, if any?
Titus
MattZed
Gingerape
Kovath

As I said in my previous posts, I am by no means certain of my reads; they are more leans. I also have the disadvantage of not being familiar with any of the players. My thoughts in general are as follows:

Titus - I find that his activity has been decent and although I have not seem him contribute much, I do think he is showing interest in pushing this game along. Townlean.

MattZed - A player who truly has had little-to-no impact on the game so far, as far as I recall. I don't entirely subscribe to the theory that inactivity = scumminess, but the longer this player remains quiet the more detrimental, or rather not beneficial, he is to town. I give him a null read for now and hope to see more that would sway me in one direction or another.

Gingerape - Trying to put my feelings on their posting style aside, they did make at least one post that I can recall that had some value or tried to generate conversation about the various approaches to the setup, although they did repeat some of the things said prior. As I said before, I also find it unlikely that scum would go along with a G3 vote when Gingerape and Yuki seemed to be most peoples' primary targets if they were in fact scum. This is, admittedly, a bit of a stretch in logic but it is the best I have right now. Townlean.

Kovath - Has been prodding people, asking good questions, candid with his reactions to things going on in the thread, and active. Could just be a good player regardless of alignment, but these elements usually make me townlean on someone, so I will do that here. Townlean.

[Quick]

@Quick If you would please create an additional countdown timer at the start post, that would be helpful. It would allow players to see their next deadlines.

Timer isn't working in OP, no idea why.

@Cryptonic ?

[JealousTL]

Oh, you mean hey, let's talk all our plan IN THE FKING DAY CHAT SO THE SCUM CAN READ ALL PUR PLAN?
100% dumb
200% idiot
300% retard
There is a reason why MikeVipe told us to trust nobody. And it's the basic remind for ALL PLAYERS. Not acting like town the whole time and let scum put a bullet in your head like a snake loose it's head.
Remember the basic! Always stick to the shadow!

Maybe we are having a communication issue, because I don't see how you arrived at that interpretation of my post. It seems a little severe and ultimately I don't agree with it.

I'm not saying that town needs to reveal the entirety of their plan. But, town needs to communicate candidly with one another on certain matters. Townies who don't do that are simply not contributing as much as they could be; there is generally no point in misleading other townies, and scum already knows you are townie. The major exceptions would be stuff like fake-claiming, counter-claiming, and other such tactics in order to apply pressure on someone. Otherwise, I don't see the benefit of someone posting solely in a trolly or mysterious fashion.

[JealousTL]

This looks like
A): You're coaching Never Unlucky
B): You're trying to convince everyone that even though you don't know your alignment, you're definitely Town.

Declaring Calix to be unlynchably-charming Town Leader is bizarre. Calix's behavior this time is equally bizarre.

Talking about yourself when it's Group 3 we're lynching from is at best narcissistic.

I think you & Calix are Scum, but we can't lynch either of you 2 today. So y'all hush while we find & lynch your buddy.

Can you elaborate on why those things you said are bizarre?

I do agree that we have given this who DUCK situation entirely too much attention by now. He has effectively used up what seems like 90% of the activity of D1. Whether this was done intentionally, I can't be sure.

I can see the world you are creating of DUCK/Calix scum; I think I alluded to that possibility in passing in a previous post. I like Calix's posts so far, though. I should look back on it a bit more objectively.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

This looks like
A): You're coaching Never Unlucky
B): You're trying to convince everyone that even though you don't know your alignment, you're definitely Town.

Declaring Calix to be unlynchably-charming Town Leader is bizarre. Calix's behavior this time is equally bizarre.

Talking about yourself when it's Group 3 we're lynching from is at best narcissistic.

I think you & Calix are Scum, but we can't lynch either of you 2 today. So y'all hush while we find & lynch your buddy.

Was trying to finally sleep and I come across this facepalm.

a) No it does not not, it looks like what it is which is me explaining if he was mafia his play was good ( in response to "calix would laugh").
b) False. I am trying to convince everyone that IF I AM FAKE, I have been acting in a town manner, and in the interest of town. Huge difference. I have stated at least 100 times that I could be mafia please read the game before misrepping.

It is not bizarre because this very post. You claim her behavior is bizarre yet have done nothing about it to pressure her. Yeah she is so lynchable.

Do you just throw out random words? Talking about me is very relevant in relation to if I made some sub optimal play and how I relate to the people in group 3. However, I have stated that the focus should be shifted elsewhere until day 2, so I do not know why you do not let this point just get buried until day 2.

So I am deflecting off yuki, coaching my partner NU, and my teammate is calix. I can tell you for 100% fact you do not believe this, want to know why!? YOUR VOTE IS ON YUKI WHO CANT BE MAFIA IN THIS WORLD!! I am mafia protecting yuki and partners with calix/nu/x. Yuki CANNOT be mafia because the groups would be 0 in A, calix duck B, Yuki NU c.

sigh.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Oh and to you fucking idiots out there, yuki has actually soft claimed a specific PR. We are not lynching him.

[Klingoncelt]

Vietnam (fly away)

10m Air Pistol Men's Finals
VIET NAM
HOANG Xuan Vinh

GOLD MEDAL


50m Pistol Men's Finals
VIET Nam
HOANG Xuan Vinh

SILVER MEDAL

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Can you elaborate on why those things you said are bizarre?

I do agree that we have given this who DUCK situation entirely too much attention by now. He has effectively used up what seems like 90% of the activity of D1. Whether this was done intentionally, I can't be sure.

I can see the world you are creating of DUCK/Calix scum; I think I alluded to that possibility in passing in a previous post. I like Calix's posts so far, though. I should look back on it a bit more objectively.

If the world is calix and myself why doesnt calix just guide me into voting group 2. My posts made it clear I would have lynched superjack's slot or secondpassing's. We would have lynched and killed you and ended the game right away.

[Yukitaka Oni]

10m Air Pistol Men's Finals
VIET NAM
HOANG Xuan Vinh

GOLD MEDAL


50m Pistol Men's Finals
VIET Nam
HOANG Xuan Vinh

SILVER MEDAL

Illegal pill, drug
It's same as the one Russian did back in the cold war. Nothing special

[Yukitaka Oni]

Maybe we are having a communication issue, because I don't see how you arrived at that interpretation of my post. It seems a little severe and ultimately I don't agree with it.

I'm not saying that town needs to reveal the entirety of their plan. But, town needs to communicate candidly with one another on certain matters. Townies who don't do that are simply not contributing as much as they could be; there is generally no point in misleading other townies, and scum already knows you are townie. The major exceptions would be stuff like fake-claiming, counter-claiming, and other such tactics in order to apply pressure on someone. Otherwise, I don't see the benefit of someone posting solely in a trolly or mysterious fashion.

No, you're not and you will not get any information from me. Not even in the next 3 games

[Klingoncelt]

If the world is calix and myself why doesnt calix just guide me into voting group 2. My posts made it clear I would have lynched superjack's slot or secondpassing's. We would have lynched and killed you and ended the game right away.

Not trying to garcia here, but Calix has yet to demonstrate an at-average talent for finding Scum. Just saying.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Illegal pill, drug
It's same as the one Russian did back in the cold war. Nothing special

Beside. They are silent heroes, soon be forgotten in my country. Which show how much corruption my country really is.
Not going to talk about my country again, at least not until Democracy control this false-propaganda communist country

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Not trying to garcia here, but Calix has yet to demonstrate an at-average talent for finding Scum. Just saying.

That is bullshit and you know it. She had Hanzo in her sigh... She fucking had a lead on Mei.. uh uh she she SHE GOT THE GUY WHO POSTED A PICTURE ONCE PER DAY!!

[Titus]

What did I miss that made you read him as traitor?

I have seen gingerape breadcrumb traitor, and neverunlucky act like he knows there is a traitor.

Why are neither of these two your traitor reads?

Pretty sure it was Yuki that breadcrumbed traitor in bright red.

[Titus]

Shit I am wrong.

-vote Gingerape