Does playing Mafia make people paranoid?

[Helz]

After spending more time in non mafia communities that had serious discussion sections it became very apparent to me that Mafia based communities have a much higher tendency to assume a secret bad faith agenda in conversations in a way I can only describe as paranoid. Other communities seem to have something similar once in a while as an OMGUS 'this person must just be a troll' kind of reaction; but while its so common in mafia communities there is even a term people accuse others with as 'real life wolfing.' Attempting to sort if a player has a secret bad faith intention behind their words is a core mechanic of Mafia but at some point does this bleed into real life? Does simply playing the game make people paranoid? After so many games do people literally start to loose the ability to differentiate between secret evil players in a game and genuine human conversations?

One community I raised this question in someone brought up that maybe its just a more paranoid kind of person who is attracted to playing mafia. Probably the most valid counter point and sort of presents a 'nature vs nurture' sort of question. It could be that people with a certain level of distrust towards others intentions are just naturally into such a social deception sort of game or maybe even that the argument "this person is arguing in bad faith with malicious intent" is just a trait of people who have studied and practiced debate much more.

Kinda curious what peoples thoughts are on the subject. Already spoke a tiny bit about it on this sites discord but figured its well worth its own topic.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I cannot say with absolute certainty that it doesn't, but what you noticed in Mafia communities is just what happens in real life in general, partly due to attribution bias. People just tend to take the easy way to explain what they don't like by labeling the agent of the object of their dislike as some kind of "evil" - and that is a tendency we should all be fighting in my opinion (I include myself in that "all").

As for Mafia specifically, I wouldn't be surprised to see people use mafia terms simply because it fits what is already in their mind so well, since the game is specifically about trust and distrust, as you said.

[Helz]

I cannot say with absolute certainty that it doesn't, but what you noticed in Mafia communities is just what happens in real life in general, partly due to attribution bias. People just tend to take the easy way to explain what they don't like by labeling the agent of the object of their dislike as some kind of "evil" - and that is a tendency we should all be fighting in my opinion (I include myself in that "all").

As for Mafia specifically, I wouldn't be surprised to see people use mafia terms simply because it fits what is already in their mind so well, since the game is specifically about trust and distrust, as you said.

Attribution bias sounds right. I was looking at social categorization and how we categorize people into groups and apply assumptions based on those groups we assign. Its easy to assign someone is part of an outgroup, and there is data suggesting once someone is assigned as an outgroup they are assumed to be more alike to members of that group than if they were an ingroup.

I am certainly also guilty of this. Sense I started questioning this idea quite a while back I have started to pay much more attention to when I start to assume someone is acting in bad faith and when I see others convey having that same assumption. I do not think there is anything unnatural about it at all but I do think its much more common in Mafia communities to the point I question if Mafia itself exacerbates this behavior. I got a laugh the last time I herd "Helz is smart enough to not say what he really thinks" like I am some kind of evil genius with a plot to push a secret ideology. I can honestly say I have never once had an idea and thought to myself "How can I sneak this opinion in without saying the quiet part out loud" but people get paranoid enough to make that assumption about me.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Attribution bias sounds right. I was looking at social categorization and how we categorize people into groups and apply assumptions based on those groups we assign. Its easy to assign someone is part of an outgroup, and there is data suggesting once someone is assigned as an outgroup they are assumed to be more alike to members of that group than if they were an ingroup.

I am certainly also guilty of this. Sense I started questioning this idea quite a while back I have started to pay much more attention to when I start to assume someone is acting in bad faith and when I see others convey having that same assumption. I do not think there is anything unnatural about it at all but I do think its much more common in Mafia communities to the point I question if Mafia itself exacerbates this behavior. I got a laugh the last time I herd "Helz is smart enough to not say what he really thinks" like I am some kind of evil genius with a plot to push a secret ideology. I can honestly say I have never once had an idea and thought to myself "How can I sneak this opinion in without saying the quiet part out loud" but people get paranoid enough to make that assumption about me.

It isn't impossible, but I am going to oppose entirely nonscientific personal experience. Playing mafia (FM, to be accurate) has whetted my awareness of my own biases much more than it has made me actually paranoid about others; in fact, the game seems to encourage introspection and self-doubting - you could call that paranoia about oneself rather than about others -, resulting in a more forgiving and understanding approach of others when I stop to think about situations for a bit.

It certainly is possible, and even likely, that not everyone shares this experience. However, considering the nature of the game leads one to question themselves and their own biases if they wish to improve, it seems likely that those who engage with the game significantly enough will end up experiencing this. As for those who play in a manner that is too casual and carefree to have a strong wish to improve, even though they have no real reason to go through the forementioned process, they probably also don't let the game influence them much at all. Mafia only really influences you if you strive for it to do so.

as for the last part, is it possible this thread is only part of a meta masterplan to make us believe you're honest? : ]

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I just thought of a specific example of the process I described about awareness of one's own biases: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...e-Mafia-Razors

Hanlon's razor is something I actually began applying to my real life (with judgment, of course), and it has served me well, for my own happiness and that of others - and that's in a large part thanks to FM.

[Helz]

It isn't impossible, but I am going to oppose entirely nonscientific personal experience. Playing mafia (FM, to be accurate) has whetted my awareness of my own biases much more than it has made me actually paranoid about others; in fact, the game seems to encourage introspection and self-doubting - you could call that paranoia about oneself rather than about others -, resulting in a more forgiving and understanding approach of others when I stop to think about situations for a bit.

It certainly is possible, and even likely, that not everyone shares this experience. However, considering the nature of the game leads one to question themselves and their own biases if they wish to improve, it seems likely that those who engage with the game significantly enough will end up experiencing this. As for those who play in a manner that is too casual and carefree to have a strong wish to improve, even though they have no real reason to go through the forementioned process, they probably also don't let the game influence them much at all. Mafia only really influences you if you strive for it to do so.

as for the last part, is it possible this thread is only part of a meta masterplan to make us believe you're honest? : ]

You are onto my 'real life wolfing' secret plot! : )

I do agree that playing the game has helped me grow as a person as well both in challenging my own bias as well as my ability in debate. While I feel I was always somewhat gifted in debate literal tens of thousands of hours playing mafia has taken me to a different level.
If you question the point I am making look for yourself. Spend more time in serious discussion channels in mafia communities and non mafia community's and watch for what I am describing. You could even just read back through such conversations that have already happened. Even in this communities discord Thunderdome section I directly called out such behaviors in probably the majority of the discussions I got into. Imo there is an utterly massive pattern that can be observed in mafia communities that is different from non mafia communities in discussions on serious topics like religion and politics. If we are going to be meta on the subject you should ask yourself what your exposure to both mafia and non mafia communities on such topics before discounting that such a pattern exists. Multiple Mafia communities I have brought this subject up in essentially agree that it does and had discussions on "why" it exists.

I just thought of a specific example of the process I described about awareness of one's own biases: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...e-Mafia-Razors

Hanlon's razor is something I actually began applying to my real life (with judgment, of course), and it has served me well, for my own happiness and that of others - and that's in a large part thanks to FM.

I do love Hanlon's razor but I have also seen it go the other way. Sometimes I have highlighted absolute unquestionable bad faith action and people use it as an excuse to say "that might just be incompetence." At some point holding accountability is ok and its often not a big deal. Saying "This was a bad faith action" does not have to mean that the person is a bad person or that an entire community is bad or something but it would require some very basic humble attitude that some people can not accept. Its unfortunate that we live in a world where admitting when someone made a mistake and being humble is such an alien concept but I have seen Halon's used to avoid the simple "Oh, My bad" and instead dive down a rabbit hole of "Maybe they were just really really really dumb over and over and over and over instead of just acting in bad faith." Although the point of this topic was discussing the paranoia of assuming bad faith at some point you do have to recognize people are flawed and make ego driven decisions in bad faith.

[Helz]

If you question the point I am making look for yourself. Spend more time in serious discussion channels in mafia communities and non mafia community's and watch for what I am describing.

Just loaded up Discord and looked at this websites 'thunderdome' channel. What was the conversation?

Someone talking about nations economic progress. Then someone jumps to "China just had to genocide people to get there, so killing in cold blood is not a concern!!!?"

Like man. Just take a few moments and read a Mafia serious discussion then read a non-mafia serious discussion. Its just so very blatant imo I can not help but wonder if playing mafia literally makes people jump to these bad faith assumptions.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Just loaded up Discord and looked at this websites 'thunderdome' channel. What was the conversation?

Someone talking about nations economic progress. Then someone jumps to "China just had to genocide people to get there, so killing in cold blood is not a concern!!!?"

Like man. Just take a few moments and read a Mafia serious discussion then read a non-mafia serious discussion. Its just so very blatant imo I can not help but wonder if playing mafia literally makes people jump to these bad faith assumptions.

I take advantage of this subforum not being in the New Posts bar to say that this isn't a Mafia issue as much as it is a Blizzard games' chats issue... Join general chat of Starcraft II or Heroes of the Storm if you wish to lose your faith in humanity as quickly as possible XD. I will try to pay attention to it off-site, though, as it certainly is an interesting hypothesis.

[Helz]

I take advantage of this subforum not being in the New Posts bar to say that this isn't a Mafia issue as much as it is a Blizzard games' chats issue... Join general chat of Starcraft II or Heroes of the Storm if you wish to lose your faith in humanity as quickly as possible XD. I will try to pay attention to it off-site, though, as it certainly is an interesting hypothesis.

Im not sure if its a Blizzard games chat issue. I have seen the term "real life wolfing" used in multiple non sc2 mafia communities. Maybe it could be questioned if its a pattern that exists in all game communities? In the multiple communities I have brought this issue up in this would be the first time that potential was raised.

[Helz]

One of the more blunt takes that were voiced in another community created some discussion

Spoiler : Spoiler :

In my experience? Yes, with a few caveats. Internet Mafia can exacerbate a number of negative traits, including over-dramatization, paranoia, and straight-up narcissism. It encourages people to create fake versions of themselves and then project that facade onto others, leading to an atmosphere of mistrust and misleading behavior even outside of games. In my own past, I've seen that manifest itself in a lot of ways: People who automatically leap to the worst conclusions about others, players who compulsively lie about things completely unrelated to games, and moderators who tell deliberate untruths because they think they can control the real-world narrative. Mafia just seems to draw a lot of individuals who are emotionally insecure, unempathetic, power-hungry, recklessly escapist, or overconfident in their ability to understand and control others. I'm speaking as someone who has been all of those things in the past. Getting into Mafia stunted me emotionally in some very unpredictable ways.

I do feel they did not separate the idea of if someone was already that way or if the game made them that way but it does nail down a number of features we see in mafia communities. That comment generated quite a bit of conversation in another community, curious if it will do the same here.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I'm a bit late but eh, I guess that's the price of having this section not appear in the new posts sidebar (i should check more often lol)

One of the more blunt takes that were voiced in another community created some discussion

Spoiler : Spoiler :

In my experience? Yes, with a few caveats. Internet Mafia can exacerbate a number of negative traits, including over-dramatization, paranoia, and straight-up narcissism. It encourages people to create fake versions of themselves and then project that facade onto others, leading to an atmosphere of mistrust and misleading behavior even outside of games. In my own past, I've seen that manifest itself in a lot of ways: People who automatically leap to the worst conclusions about others, players who compulsively lie about things completely unrelated to games, and moderators who tell deliberate untruths because they think they can control the real-world narrative. Mafia just seems to draw a lot of individuals who are emotionally insecure, unempathetic, power-hungry, recklessly escapist, or overconfident in their ability to understand and control others. I'm speaking as someone who has been all of those things in the past. Getting into Mafia stunted me emotionally in some very unpredictable ways.

I do feel they did not separate the idea of if someone was already that way or if the game made them that way but it does nail down a number of features we see in mafia communities. That comment generated quite a bit of conversation in another community, curious if it will do the same here.

I have definetly seen the traits mentioned in this take before in mafia communities - some specific names even come to mind immediatly. That being said, I have also seen those traits among non-Mafia players often enough - enough to believe it's not straight up generated by mafia. The fact there also are many nice people to be met through the game is also telling. It's almost certain that the game attracts people with specific interests, issues and perhaps even virtues, much like any other activity tends to "filter" its participants naturally (which is why we can make statistics about all sorts of things!). It's also almost certain that it influences players, much like anything in a person's environment.

However, I believe in free will. If we have free will, then we can choose, at least partially, how we let experiences and environment influence us, mostly by adopting general attitudes before experiencing things (unless we live like some people seem to live, without ever thinking about the meaning/worth of anything, which honestly mystifies me lol; not sure if that truly exists, but I digress). If one begins playing Mafia with the intent to magically fool everyone and assert dominance on others, the "problem", or to speak more neutrally, the tendency this expresses, doesn't stem from Mafia, but from the person a priori.

If you're still digging the question, an interesting angle would be the player's preferred role and what their main goal in playing Mafia is as related to how they feel about the influence of Mafia on their lives. My hypothesis is that those who prefer scumming, at least for reasons along the lines of what I said just before (fool others, assert dominance, have control, etc.; basically a narcissistic will to power) are more likely to express the negative reactions you outlined in OP, in part because they reflect their own way of thinking on others (much like everyone) and assume everyone is playing that kind of manipulative game, and in part because that is how their mind works (perhaps they cannot fathom different ways of thinking, or at least, they appear to them as unrealistic).

Of course, this is just a possible tendency, and I am not asserting that anyone who prefers scum over town is a narcissistic bastard xD. This hypothesis stems from the fact that I play the game as an "uncovering truth through various methods" game more than as a game of lies and view it as fundamentally town-based, which definetly has influenced the way I approach the game and how I let it influence me; perhaps this is a determining factor, after all.

~~

Slightly off-topic about your thoughts on Hanlon's razor, accountability and bad faith, but I'll say it anyway:
Your statement has been going through my mind in the last few days, and while I agree that bad faith actions definetly exist, I also think that 1) they are much less common than what is usually assumed and 2) they are mostly, if not straight up entirely, done with a goal that simply differs from the goals fixed by moral norms in society without being essentially opposed to those norms. Point 2 is most important imo: nobody does evil purely for the sake of doing evil with no other goal whatsoever. Even a crazy psychopathic murderer doesn't do evil for the sake of it, but because he wants to satisfy some impulse he has, for example. Thus, while accountability for wrong actions is necessary, forgiveness also is, since evil just appears to be... a mistake, most of the time.

I'll finish this overly long post by saying that while I do not consider myself as religious because I don't believe in any revelation whatsoever and don't actually know about... well, anything religion is specifically about lol, this conclusion on the nature of evil is highly compatible with the sort-of-Christian (and probably other religions too) concept of divine grace and of eventual universal forgiveness, to the point that it has made me find this concept somewhat alluring, if definetly not provable nor certainly acceptable.

[Helz]

My hypothesis is that those who prefer scumming, at least for reasons along the lines of what I said just before (fool others, assert dominance, have control, etc.; basically a narcissistic will to power) are more likely to express the negative reactions you outlined in OP, in part because they reflect their own way of thinking on others (much like everyone) and assume everyone is playing that kind of manipulative game, and in part because that is how their mind works (perhaps they cannot fathom different ways of thinking, or at least, they appear to them as unrealistic).

This is an interesting point I have not herd voiced anywhere else. Maybe a line could be drawn between the motive to play and the behavior that could separate individuals categorically. I wonder if such groups that shift communities or if its just a natural bias in how people think that drives assumptions that create such play styles.

Slightly off-topic about your thoughts on Hanlon's razor, accountability and bad faith, but I'll say it anyway:
Your statement has been going through my mind in the last few days, and while I agree that bad faith actions definetly exist, I also think that 1) they are much less common than what is usually assumed and 2) they are mostly, if not straight up entirely, done with a goal that simply differs from the goals fixed by moral norms in society without being essentially opposed to those norms. Point 2 is most important imo: nobody does evil purely for the sake of doing evil with no other goal whatsoever. Even a crazy psychopathic murderer doesn't do evil for the sake of it, but because he wants to satisfy some impulse he has, for example. Thus, while accountability for wrong actions is necessary, forgiveness also is, since evil just appears to be... a mistake, most of the time.

For sure and thats valid. One point I would expand upon is that while the original action may not be taken in bad faith and Hanlon's Razor might apply for some reason we also apply that to subsequent actions. It should absolutely be acknowledged that at some point when a human is given knowledge that their action (bad faith or not) was wrong and at that point when they make a decision to not correct the wrong and continue with a course of action that is wrong it becomes bad faith. Is it evil? Probably not. Probably just hubris. But objectively the initial intent should be separated from the series of decisions that followed. Looking at if the persons initial intent was bad does not excuse the actions that followed imo.

That would be a very hard line where I feel like Hanlon's Razor becomes an excuse for clear bad faith actions although it seems to excuse such behavior.