S-FM 353: Death Nominations

[tutuu]

What is it about this specific read that seems unorthodox to you?

Unless I'm missing what you're getting at, isn't that basically what Baker was also saying?

Vittae abd baker are saying mundane things to each other therefore not w/w is a pretty unorthodox read in my book. I like it a lot and might steal it myself. Its a very rare read to see. I specifically liked that richard did ... how do i put it. A towny/good hypocrisy, if that makes sense? Like imagine that word but if it had a positive connotation. Thats what rich did and i think its >rand town

[tutuu]

Was there a particular reason why you asked this question when you did?

Obviously there's the whole WIFOM aspect if it did get discussed so I'm interested in hearing what you thought the benefit in talking about it was.

Nvm paranoia dropped

[tutuu]

Trust fall:

Baker - i think town due to rly high effort, passion and happiness, shows behaviors shown in previous town games

Vittae - town due to townleading in a very proper/standard way, like everything he says makes sense, this playstyle is quite hard to pilot as wolf

Martin - town due to being good ol martin, some things he says are a bit weird tonally and im very used to townreading him for it and being right, like there were some thoughts thqt werent presented as "presentable" (ie look at me guys im so town) but like behind the scenes i think there was real thought

Ikarus - town due to having quite the depth to his thoughts, extremely difficult to fake from someone with no experience. Not w/w with a bunch of ppl in my book like lol and maybe scumbot or richard. If ikarus is scum hes in a team with very specific/niche teammates, would be tricky to crack open, and i dont think he ever gets chopped first

Lol - town due to doing whatever he wants? I am terrible at reading lol i always get him wrong

Scumbot - town due to emotions, i buy his frustrations, also if hes mafia he could have just hammered me. Making a brand new wagon on mm for no reason is an absurd route to take as wolf

Richard - town due to having rly agreeable posts, imo he did a towntell. Seems unphased by the fact he almost died. I like his solving

Varcron - town due to ... not caring about looking towny?

-----

So i think varcron and lol i had the worst reasons to come up with townreading them

But interestingly i struggled the most with martin. Took me the longest to put it into words and write it. I like my reasons on a logical level but i wanna explore later if i could be misclearing martin. Ive never seen him wolf

[tutuu]

Distrust fall:

Baker - mafia due to having an abnormal amount of effort / approach to the game - using tools, office software etc

Vittae - wolf due to having the standard strong wolf playstyle that just pockets everyone since its overly logical and "proper"

Martin - wolf coz it took me the longest to do a trustfall for him and ive never seen him wolf

Ikarus - wolf due to being coached in wolf chat or due to our d1 poe being all town and him taking the opportunity to be on the right side of history and tming town the 1-posters

Lol - wolf for tunneling me when hes had a good record of correctly reading me before. I think his reasons to sus me make no sense too, im playing this game like ive played every single game with him and i was town in all

Scumbot - wolf coz ate is my weakness and coz im hoping u guys were right to push him, i trust u and ur good players, if ur town that is. I suppose apart from emotions im not finding anything of his towny

Richard - wolf coz ... unphased that hes poe and almost dies? I acknowledge i said the same reason for my trustfall but this makes sense to me. Its probably dumb. But like. Yeah... lmao
I have no experience with him and im scared

Varcron - mafia coz hes not playing

---

Interestingly richard was the hardest one to come up with. I should mull this over, perhaps i should place richard higher

[tutuu]

I needa do Other Stuff but gun to head

Id kill lol and varcron

Id consider putting richard up and martin down

Ikarus im not touching until we see some more flips

I need to start paying more attention to baker and vittae. I tend to "tunnel" my townreads (as in townreading them so hard i stop ever being suspicious of them) and sometimes this bites me on the ass

And martin too, especially martin more so

Scumbot might need to die at some point if i still cant find him town via his solving

[Wiml]

I need a few hours to marinate and think it out

Gun to ahead my initial reaction is to kill lol

But i wanna think a bit more about lol, remind myself of my past games with him, and make sure that im not doing it out of annoyance

That seems reasonable.

I'm guessing based on more recent posts that CRich would be the player that you think is most likely town within the three?

[tutuu]

@ikarusdk u still think im mafia? if ur town its cool, shit happens, i just wanna say that i dont think i can get any townier than this, i think this is my peak xD. So like, sorry to disappoint in future games lmao u'd have to deal w even scummier tutuu

[tutuu]

That seems reasonable.

I'm guessing based on more recent posts that CRich would be the player that you think is most likely town within the three?

Yeah

[tutuu]

@lol who do u think are my mafia partners? Also who do u townread?

[tutuu]

@scumbot5679 now that mm flipped town, where do u go next? Do u have a potential wolfteam of 3?

[tutuu]

@Varcron hi. Any reads?

[Wiml]

Vittae abd baker are saying mundane things to each other therefore not w/w is a pretty unorthodox read in my book. I like it a lot and might steal it myself. Its a very rare read to see. I specifically liked that richard did ... how do i put it. A towny/good hypocrisy, if that makes sense? Like imagine that word but if it had a positive connotation. Thats what rich did and i think its >rand town

Do you mean the conversations between me and Martin that Baker pointed out? I'm not sure what conversations between me and Baker you're referring to.

[Wiml]

Nvm paranoia dropped

What specifically do you townread about that post of mine?

[tutuu]

Do you mean the conversations between me and Martin that Baker pointed out? I'm not sure what conversations between me and Baker you're referring to.

Between u and baker that richard pointed out

[tutuu]

Baker pinged u. Richard quoted it and made that read

[Wiml]

My town list is something like this
Me
Bakermir
Vittae
tutuu
lol
Ikaru
Scumbot

I wouldn't be surprised if this list has at least 1 mafia I've miscleared, because no way I get the entire mafia team pinned down D1.

Why is scumbot town for you?

[tutuu]

What specifically do you townread about that post of mine?

Id be impressed if u followed up on that post as wolf. Most wolves make the post u did to scold ppl from discussing nominations just to posture and then forget it. But u followed up on it asking richard meaning u care about the answer

[Wiml]

Baker pinged u. Richard quoted it and made that read

I think you've probably misinterpreted the read CRich was making.

Baker asked him something along the lines of "do you agree that Martin/Vittae aren't w/w based ok these interactions?" and I believe CRich was making the post responding to Baker's question instead of saying that me and Baker talking casually made us not w/w.

[Wiml]

Id be impressed if u followed up on that post as wolf. Most wolves make the post u did to scold ppl from discussing nominations just to posture and then forget it. But u followed up on it asking richard meaning u care about the answer

That's fair. It's definitely a post where I want to hear what CRich claims he was actually trying to accomplish before I try to dig into it any further.

Ime, these type of posts in particular tend to be quite useful into understanding a player's mindset which obviously helps a lot with trying to solve them.

[tutuu]

I think you've probably misinterpreted the read CRich was making.

Baker asked him something along the lines of "do you agree that Martin/Vittae aren't w/w based ok these interactions?" and I believe CRich was making the post responding to Baker's question instead of saying that me and Baker talking casually made us not w/w.

Oh

Well anyway it still tonally read to me like a towny post from rich

[Wiml]

Oh

Well anyway it still tonally read to me like a towny post from rich

How so?

[Wiml]

I'm not seeing anything standout in that post specifically.

[tutuu]

How so?

Gut

[bakermir]

Not my ideal list of nominations but at least one we can work with.

What would be your ideal list given the gamestate back then?

[Wiml]

Gut

That's not really useful for my trying to solve either CRich or you though.

Specifically tone for that post or are you referring more broadly to CRich's tone as a whole at this point?

[bakermir]

And that he's very likely town for reasons I'll go into depth on later but are pretty low priority for me compared to some more immediate things I want to spend my time looking at.

I am curios about your town read on Ikarus for sure.

[tutuu]

That's not really useful for my trying to solve either CRich or you though.

Specifically tone for that post or are you referring more broadly to CRich's tone as a whole at this point?

That post

[Wiml]

What would be your ideal list given the gamestate back then?

I'd have included scumbot (who's been the consenus tied wagon on two separate occasions just during D1) over CRich/lol.

[bakermir]

Spreadsheet? O_O

Ok wait im getting a bit paranoid now lmao

This is mega towny but like. I dont remember seeing u put in this much passion into it with like. Tools. Like stuff that isnt posts.

So this is new to me. I am a bit paranoid u could be too towny to be town. As town before uve always been a bit of a gremlin

Can i ask - where did this passion to put in this effort in this particular game come from?

I kinda expected you to be more empathetic towards me, considering what happened in Sorc 17er. I am making some fundamental changes to my gameplay. we can discuss it after the game if you are interested in what I have been working on since that disaster...

...too bad this game has been rather dry with activity, and the turboesque cycles are limiting us from having a batter game in a sense?

I still appreciate you a lot though.

[bakermir]

God Vittae posts a lot. Theyre like a budget JaggedJimmyJay. I tend to get snowed by players like that. Idk how im supposed to catch players like that wolfing. I think he's town 🤷

yeah it is one of the town tells I would keep in mind fosho

[Wiml]

I am curios about your town read on Ikarus for sure.

I'll get round to it before EoD.

I just really want to finish my ISOs on CRich, lol and (ideally) Scumbot before I go to bed. Ikarus literally can't be voted today and I would also like to read the recent scumgame of his before I lock in my read confidently, which I'm not sure if I'm going to have the time to fit in or not, so going into detail on my read on him rn is at a lower level of priority on my to-do list.

[bakermir]

I'd have included scumbot (who's been the consenus tied wagon on two separate occasions just during D1) over CRich/lol.

That's pretty consistent and I like it.

Who would be the third?

[bakermir]

I'll get round to it before EoD.

I just really want to finish my ISOs on CRich, lol and (ideally) Scumbot before I go to bed. Ikarus literally can't be voted today and I would also like to read the recent scumgame of his before I lock in my read confidently, which I'm not sure if I'm going to have the time to fit in or not, so going into detail on my read on him rn is at a lower level of priority on my to-do list.

It would help me a lot with where my solve is at rn if you can provide your thoughts on ikarus before anything else.

[tutuu]

I kinda expected you to be more empathetic towards me, considering what happened in Sorc 17er. I am making some fundamental changes to my gameplay. we can discuss it after the game if you are interested in what I have been working on since that disaster...

...too bad this game has been rather dry with activity, and the turboesque cycles are limiting us from having a batter game in a sense?

I still appreciate you a lot though.

I never thought that u chopping icet was bad and i never felt the need for u to change stuff about that

Weve discussed already that my only issues were u calling me bad. But id have also killed icet the guy didnt care and was openwolfing as town

[Wiml]

The tl;dr of my read is that I feel like I know the way he ticks very well (having played with him and meta dove him very thoroughly in a previous game and seen him win a F3 as a wolf in KRC after that as a host with TMI on his alignment the whole way through and access to his thought process through reading wolf chat plus him obviously just being a beginner and being mentored by somebody who I know very well) and I think the quality and nuance of his solving as he expressed in some of the longer walls is completely out of his wolf range. He's also ticked off a few general solving-related towntells that I want to go into some detail on later.

I'd just ideally like to get a look at his other, more recent, wolf game first to make sure it lines up with my current understanding of his thought processes and wolf range.

[Wiml]

The tl;dr of my read is that I feel like I know the way he ticks very well (having played with him and meta dove him very thoroughly in a previous game and seen him win a F3 as a wolf in KRC after that as a host with TMI on his alignment the whole way through and access to his thought process through reading wolf chat plus him obviously just being a beginner and being mentored by somebody who I know very well) and I think the quality and nuance of his solving as he expressed in some of the longer walls is completely out of his wolf range. He's also ticked off a few general solving-related towntells that I want to go into some detail on later.

I'd just ideally like to get a look at his other, more recent, wolf game first to make sure it lines up with my current understanding of his thought processes and wolf range.

This was a continuation of #531.

[bakermir]

The tl;dr of my read is that I feel like I know the way he ticks very well (having played with him and meta dove him very thoroughly in a previous game and seen him win a F3 as a wolf in KRC after that as a host with TMI on his alignment the whole way through and access to his thought process through reading wolf chat plus him obviously just being a beginner and being mentored by somebody who I know very well) and I think the quality and nuance of his solving as he expressed in some of the longer walls is completely out of his wolf range. He's also ticked off a few general solving-related towntells that I want to go into some detail on later.

I'd just ideally like to get a look at his other, more recent, wolf game first to make sure it lines up with my current understanding of his thought processes and wolf range.

Thank you. I am looking forward to your in depth analysis on ikarus and I hope you drop it sooner.

I have a game winning solve almost ironed out and looking forward to post it once ready.

[tutuu]

-vote lol

[Wiml]

That's pretty consistent and I like it.

Who would be the third?

At the time of EoD, I'd have chosen Scumbot/Varcron/lol as my three.

CRich I didn't have a strong opinion on but would've left out due to being a recent sub with what seemed like a relatively high chance of self-resolving and the fact that he did at least genuinely seem like he came into the game trying to solve.

[Wiml]

Thank you. I am looking forward to your in depth analysis on ikarus and I hope you drop it sooner.

I have a game winning solve almost ironed out and looking forward to post it once ready.

Looking forward to seeing it!

[bakermir]

I never thought that u chopping icet was bad and i never felt the need for u to change stuff about that

Weve discussed already that my only issues were u calling me bad. But id have also killed icet the guy didnt care and was openwolfing as town

It was objectively bad, because I decided on sheeping the legacies instead of believing in myself.

[bakermir]

-vote CRichardForumLies

I am probably gonna vibe out rest of D2, so @ me if you have questions.

[tutuu]

It was objectively bad, because I decided on sheeping the legacies instead of believing in myself.

It objectively cant be labeled as objectively since u didnt know their alignment

[Wiml]

This slipped my mind but, since the nominations are submitted in order of preference, MM's legacy wolf reads are:

1. CRich
2. lol
3. Varcron

In that order as most -> least likely being wolves.

I don't think it's necessarily all that useful in this scenario since I'm not really sure if MM was even fully caught up with the thread but it seems worth bringing up for those who weren't already aware.

At least we can now use nomination order as a way to interpret player's legacies in the future if we do ever get another miselim (or as an added layer of WIFOM we can read into after elimning a wolf).

[bakermir]

It objectively cant be labeled as objectively since u didnt know their alignment

I had a correct scumread on the hydra, but I hesitated to act on it because I was afraid of messing it up for town. It turns out that my decision and reasoning was a bigger fuck up than just being wrong in what I believe. That was a very poor display of decision making, and I am never repeating that mistake again. If I am wrong in my reads from now on, then so be it. I will work towards having stronger reads to reach healthier results at every stage of the game. Basically, I will be putting in more effort on being vocal about my reads on people and gamestate because I want to take my game to next level by improving my interactions.

[Wiml]

I remember CRich struggling as a wolf when we wolfed on the same team a couple years ago but I think at the time he was severely burned out as well as having other out of game issues and wasn't at all in the right circumstances to put on his best wolf performance.

A game from that long ago is a too old to really try to gauge CRich's scum meta from anyway.

[Wiml]

Those convos don't feel like they're going through the motions of being forced to talk to each other in thread. So >rand not w/w.

Looking at the post of CRich's that Tutuu thinks is towny:

I guess if you really wanted to stretch here then you could say that this post reads like CRich has put genuine consideration into solving the exchange between me and Martin to come to the conclusion that we're >rand w/w.

I think I sort of get what you mean now @tutuu but I don't really see it as something that I'd consider to be strongly >rand accurate as a town tell.

[Wiml]

I think the overall attempts made to solve in CRich's ISO are mildly above rand town but I don't think that this specific post would be especially difficult for a wolf to produce.

[tutuu]

Looking at the post of CRich's that Tutuu thinks is towny:

I guess if you really wanted to stretch here then you could say that this post reads like CRich has put genuine consideration into solving the exchange between me and Martin to come to the conclusion that we're >rand w/w.

I think I sort of get what you mean now @tutuu but I don't really see it as something that I'd consider to be strongly >rand accurate as a town tell.

Idk why ur focusing on this so much

Anyway ur definitely not w/w with richard due to this

[Wiml]

The hydra side of the CRich slot in a vacuum is obviously pretty bad both in terms of posting quality and quantity (both heads only posting a single combined time as a direct response to pressure and then never returning to the thread) and it's more difficult to buy that both heads in the slot were individually inactive for reasons independent of alignment and that the timing of them popping into the thread was purely coincidental.

I think there's some room for giving them the benefit of the doubt here that both of them were coincidentally busy / forgot about the game and that they coincidentally came back to the thread at the point they were wagoned only to immediately dip again but the slot pre-CRich sub is bad enough to give me at least some degree of hesitancy in calling CRich town.