Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?
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  1. ISO #1

    Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Almost every game i see is a variation of 9-3-3 with lots of randoms.

    9 townies, all chosen from certain randoms. 3 mafia (or triad, one usually always GF or DH) always certain randoms, and 3 neutrals of various randoms.

    Why? This is fucking boring and overdone. Each game is going to be radically different than the last, you have no reasonable way to tell if someone is lying or not, and the randomness of the game affects the balance with only limited ways of predicting how it will pan out. One game, the Mafia could be very OP, while in others, town or becomes OP, due to random chance combinations! WTF?!? That, by very definition, is bad design.

    It leasts to a lot of problems.

    And that leads into another issue: NOBODY likes playing as citizens, so they dont include the roles... when the game's balance practically hinges on most of the town not being able to do much. If every single townie can do something special, (discount the fact that most players tend to be morons), it tips the game in favor of the town even more than it already was.

    Not to mention all the annoying morons who cry "SHIT SAVE" or "TROLL SAVE" everytime someone gets the guts to do a setup that ISNT 9-3-3, or who has a game-type that focuses more on STRATEGY than relying on random role generation for balance.

    What the hell is wrong with this community?!?

  2. ISO #2

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzan View Post
    Almost every game i see is a variation of 9-3-3 with lots of randoms.

    9 townies, all chosen from certain randoms. 3 mafia (or triad, one usually always GF or DH) always certain randoms, and 3 neutrals of various randoms.

    Why? This is fucking boring and overdone. Each game is going to be radically different than the last, you have no reasonable way to tell if someone is lying or not, and the randomness of the game affects the balance with only limited ways of predicting how it will pan out. One game, the Mafia could be very OP, while in others, town or becomes OP, due to random chance combinations! WTF?!? That, by very definition, is bad design.

    It leasts to a lot of problems.

    And that leads into another issue: NOBODY likes playing as citizens, so they dont include the roles... when the game's balance practically hinges on most of the town not being able to do much. If every single townie can do something special, (discount the fact that most players tend to be morons), it tips the game in favor of the town even more than it already was.

    Not to mention all the annoying morons who cry "SHIT SAVE" or "TROLL SAVE" everytime someone gets the guts to do a setup that ISNT 9-3-3, or who has a game-type that focuses more on STRATEGY than relying on random role generation for balance.

    What the hell is wrong with this community?!?
    No randoms = triad has nothing to claim.
    orange lowercase phrase
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  3. ISO #3

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzan View Post
    Almost every game i see is a variation of 9-3-3 with lots of randoms.

    9 townies, all chosen from certain randoms. 3 mafia (or triad, one usually always GF or DH) always certain randoms, and 3 neutrals of various randoms.

    Why? This is fucking boring and overdone. Each game is going to be radically different than the last, you have no reasonable way to tell if someone is lying or not, and the randomness of the game affects the balance with only limited ways of predicting how it will pan out. One game, the Mafia could be very OP, while in others, town or becomes OP, due to random chance combinations! WTF?!? That, by very definition, is bad design.

    It leasts to a lot of problems.

    And that leads into another issue: NOBODY likes playing as citizens, so they dont include the roles... when the game's balance practically hinges on most of the town not being able to do much. If every single townie can do something special, (discount the fact that most players tend to be morons), it tips the game in favor of the town even more than it already was.

    Not to mention all the annoying morons who cry "SHIT SAVE" or "TROLL SAVE" everytime someone gets the guts to do a setup that ISNT 9-3-3, or who has a game-type that focuses more on STRATEGY than relying on random role generation for balance.

    What the hell is wrong with this community?!?
    Leaving 1 or 2 confirmed roles may help(fe i have setup with only 1 Investigator who can detect exact role.


    Oh, and people like 9-3-3 for a reason(or 8-3-3-1).
    orange lowercase phrase
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)=▄︻̷̿┻̿═━一

  4. ISO #4

  5. ISO #5

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    i find in 9/3/3 setups, town can win if most people claim d1/d2. mafia/evils shouldn't ever win
    So in what setup will Town and Evil have equal chances of winning?
    (or chances scaled from skill)?
    orange lowercase phrase
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)=▄︻̷̿┻̿═━一

  6. ISO #6

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nawa View Post
    So in what setup will Town and Evil have equal chances of winning?
    (or chances scaled from skill)?
    Because if 9 Survivor 3 Jailor 3 Enforcer is one, i will do it.
    orange lowercase phrase
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)=▄︻̷̿┻̿═━一

  7. ISO #7

  8. ISO #8

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nawa View Post
    So in what setup will Town and Evil have equal chances of winning?
    (or chances scaled from skill)?
    adding citizens. not having 9 TPR for starters

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say "a game-type that focuses more on STRATEGY"
    also this

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  9. ISO #9

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    i find in 9/3/3 setups, town can win if most people claim d1/d2. mafia/evils shouldn't ever win
    Thanks.

    In addition, I think the fact that friends are most likely to be on the same side rather tha opposing also contributed to the culture.
    When we talked about pubs, we are talking about us.
    When they talked about pubs, they exclude themselves.
    They say only bad players want to modify citizens, and they do not satisfy bad players.
    Are we bad players? We include bad players, but that is just a part of us.
    ---They put veteran, mayor, allowed jester to visit for nothing, and they regretted and say those things are brainless.

  10. ISO #10

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzan View Post
    Almost every game i see is a variation of 9-3-3 with lots of randoms.

    9 townies, all chosen from certain randoms. 3 mafia (or triad, one usually always GF or DH) always certain randoms, and 3 neutrals of various randoms.

    Why? This is fucking boring and overdone. Each game is going to be radically different than the last, you have no reasonable way to tell if someone is lying or not, and the randomness of the game affects the balance with only limited ways of predicting how it will pan out. One game, the Mafia could be very OP, while in others, town or becomes OP, due to random chance combinations! WTF?!? That, by very definition, is bad design.

    It leasts to a lot of problems.

    And that leads into another issue: NOBODY likes playing as citizens, so they dont include the roles... when the game's balance practically hinges on most of the town not being able to do much. If every single townie can do something special, (discount the fact that most players tend to be morons), it tips the game in favor of the town even more than it already was.

    Not to mention all the annoying morons who cry "SHIT SAVE" or "TROLL SAVE" everytime someone gets the guts to do a setup that ISNT 9-3-3, or who has a game-type that focuses more on STRATEGY than relying on random role generation for balance.

    What the hell is wrong with this community?!?
    Without randoms, scums can't win. The only way to do that is to add citizens. However, as 95% of the community thinks they're SHITIZENS, it's impossible. The thing to do IMO is to make a lobby named "Citizens and TPRs" and to make a legit save similar to the M-FMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  11. ISO #11

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    i find in 9/3/3 setups, town can win if most people claim d1/d2. mafia/evils shouldn't ever win
    It's the mod. Made for being open... A great part of the community is, sadly, retarded. If we had 15 good players per game, you would be right.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  12. ISO #12

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    i find in 9/3/3 setups, town can win if most people claim d1/d2. mafia/evils shouldn't ever win
    Please don't make this a meta.
    I'm FloodingRain on sc2, sorry for the confusion <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury
    Who the hell quotes themselves in their own signature?

  13. ISO #13

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nawa View Post
    So in what setup will Town and Evil have equal chances of winning?
    (or chances scaled from skill)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    Please don't make this a meta.
    i tried back in the day. I got lynched pretty much consistently, or not enough people bought into it for it to work ahahaha

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  14. ISO #14

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    i tried back in the day. I got lynched pretty much consistently, or not enough people bought into it for it to work ahahaha
    ^^ I did that too and the same thing happened to me. People thought I wanted the jailors to reveal so I could kill them. R.I.P.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  15. ISO #15

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    i tried back in the day. I got lynched pretty much consistently, or not enough people bought into it for it to work ahahaha
    Why try? If someone tried this, I'd fake claim regards of role.

    The outcomes are:

    1) All of the good players do it. So, town always wins. Boring.
    2) Mixed bag of people in the game. Strong town roles (if claimed) die ASAP. Evil wins.
    3) No one does it and we get to keep the most common/balanced types of games.

    I prefer option 3.
    I'm FloodingRain on sc2, sorry for the confusion <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury
    Who the hell quotes themselves in their own signature?

  16. ISO #16

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nawa View Post
    So in what setup will Town and Evil have equal chances of winning?
    (or chances scaled from skill)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    Why try? If someone tried this, I'd fake claim regards of role.

    The outcomes are:

    1) All of the good players do it. So, town always wins. Boring.
    2) Mixed bag of people in the game. Strong town roles (if claimed) die ASAP. Evil wins.
    3) No one does it and we get to keep the most common/balanced types of games.

    I prefer option 3.
    Outcome 1 changes the meta. Outcome 3 is playing suboptimally, which calling it balanced, is a severe stretch of the truth.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  17. ISO #17

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nawa View Post
    So in what setup will Town and Evil have equal chances of winning?
    (or chances scaled from skill)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    Why try? If someone tried this, I'd fake claim regards of role.

    The outcomes are:

    1) All of the good players do it. So, town always wins. Boring.
    2) Mixed bag of people in the game. Strong town roles (if claimed) die ASAP. Evil wins.
    3) No one does it and we get to keep the most common/balanced types of games.

    I prefer option 3.
    Outcome 1 changes the meta. Outcome 3 is playing suboptimally, which calling it balanced, is inaccurate.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  18. ISO #18

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    Why try? If someone tried this, I'd fake claim regards of role.

    The outcomes are:

    1) All of the good players do it. So, town always wins. Boring.
    2) Mixed bag of people in the game. Strong town roles (if claimed) die ASAP. Evil wins.
    3) No one does it and we get to keep the most common/balanced types of games.

    I prefer option 3.
    4) We make setups with citizens and TPRs, like a legit game of IRL mafia, and play correctly. That's all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  19. ISO #19

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Outcome 1 changes the meta. Outcome 3 is playing suboptimally, which calling it balanced, is inaccurate.
    Outcome 1 changes the meta in some games only. Do you forget that new players exist? They would not only be confused, but not grasp the point of the game and would probably be turned away. Also, some players, even experienced ones, would flat-out not want to participate in that type of game. So, you can never truly have option 1. Only option 2 and subsequent rage quits from perceived gamethrowing.

    Outcome 3 isn't balanced on a theoretical level, but when you factor in the idea that 95% of the player base doesn't understand how to play without power roles, it is balanced.

    People aren't good enough to play without power roles, so it is balanced for the player base that we have.
    I'm FloodingRain on sc2, sorry for the confusion <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury
    Who the hell quotes themselves in their own signature?

  20. ISO #20

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    4) We make setups with citizens and TPRs, like a legit game of IRL mafia, and play correctly. That's all.
    Yes, but players who play the mod don't even properly understand vote pattern analysis. The vast majority who play the game aren't skilled enough to play such a game.

    This is why I fake leads and fake claim roles - to apply pressure to those I suspect of being scum for analytical/gut reasons. But, I get constantly accused of griefing for doing so.
    I'm FloodingRain on sc2, sorry for the confusion <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury
    Who the hell quotes themselves in their own signature?

  21. ISO #21

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Because if you didn't have mostly Randoms, you'd need mostly Citizens in order to balance the game. Sc2 hates Citizens.

    If you had all TPR in a game, then people can just systematically figure out the game. Where is the fun in that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    This is why I fake leads and fake claim roles - to apply pressure to those I suspect of being scum for analytical/gut reasons. But, I get constantly accused of griefing for doing so.
    That's also real dumb to do, because you're losing the Town's trust. So, even if you actually get a lead from this "analysis", no one will give a shit what you have to say.



    +rep 4 u TC, for liking Citizens. Love have Citizens in games & playing Citizen.
    Last edited by Cryptonic; November 7th, 2017 at 06:15 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  22. ISO #22

  23. ISO #23

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    Yes, but players who play the mod don't even properly understand vote pattern analysis. The vast majority who play the game aren't skilled enough to play such a game.

    This is why I fake leads and fake claim roles - to apply pressure to those I suspect of being scum for analytical/gut reasons. But, I get constantly accused of griefing for doing so.
    It may be a sign that you shouldn't do it, then. Just saying :P
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  24. ISO #24

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nawa View Post
    Case closed.?
    Not yet. Citizens shouldn't have a one-use vest unless the save has a special goal. They should just be citizens, lol. Do you all wear a bulletproof vest at home??? XD
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  25. ISO #25

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    That's also real dumb to do, because you're losing the Town's trust. So, even if you actually get a lead from this "analysis", no one will give a shit what you have to say.
    You'd be surprised. Town is pretty accepting of results - regardless of logic. Plus, my win rate is ridiculously high whenever I play in such a way.

    Do you mean to tell me I should sit down and shut the fuck up and wait for some investigative roles to come up with leads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    It may be a sign that you shouldn't do it, then. Just saying :P
    That's a silly way to look at it. If the laws don't dictate perfect moral behavior in society, then why should we even begin to assume that the rules for this mod dictate perfect play?
    I'm FloodingRain on sc2, sorry for the confusion <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury
    Who the hell quotes themselves in their own signature?

  26. ISO #26

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    You'd be surprised. Town is pretty accepting of results - regardless of logic. Plus, my win rate is ridiculously high whenever I play in such a way.

    Do you mean to tell me I should sit down and shut the fuck up and wait for some investigative roles to come up with leads?
    No, but I am saying if you're getting to the point where you're fucking up enough that other players think you're griefing, then you're doing it wrong. And, if they assume you are griefing, they will not accept any more leads from you. At that point, you become less useful than the sheep.

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  27. ISO #27

    Re: Why do people like saves with lots of randoms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    No, but I am saying if you're getting to the point where you're fucking up enough that other players think you're griefing, then you're doing it wrong. And, if they assume you are griefing, they will not accept any more leads from you. At that point, you become less useful than the sheep.
    Never in my post did I say I fucked it up. I don't. My winrate is very high with this strategy over a very large sample size.

    Additionally, I only ever get complained at by people who are complete trash who think investigative roles are the only source of leads (even when I'm right, they say "luck")

    I want an answer from you. Do you think it's possible to explain vote pattern analysis quickly enough to get a vote off with people spamming the chat to hell in the mod? If so, then do you think enough people could understand it quickly enough to form a decision and put someone up for trial?

    If you don't think it's possible, what do you suggest for non-investigative roles?
    I'm FloodingRain on sc2, sorry for the confusion <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury
    Who the hell quotes themselves in their own signature?

 

 

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