Moderation

[Oberon]

People asked me to make a thread about the experience I have with mismoderation. Well, here it is.
Back in 2017 (?) when I signed up I used an email address that had my first and last names in it; someone found my Facebook (I’m 99% sure of this), that someone was a red. I will not reveal who it was, merely that it was tough as hell to get them demoted or anything. I submitted a report to someone who was higher up but they in turn had no authority and had to submit a report themselves - nothing came of it.

On a slightly conspiracy theory note, there is some indication the person in question used powers to IP check people in games they were already in, and some (rumours, more or less), that they also checked people’s emails.

The other problem that I referred was when I was briefly FM Moderator. We (another moderator and I) saw evidence of extreme toxicity coming from a certain player in S-FM Magellan (a game i was the host of). Now, I made several mistakes along the way, chiefly telling people in dead chat the player in question would be infracted. But the real problem in this scenario was the fact that the person in question kept trying to insulr me to stir a negative response - and staff did absolutely nothing about this. I was left to endure an extremely stressful attack by that player (relentless, they would follow me around the site and shit) all by myself - all the while while people on staff were urging me to apologize, which I disagrees with because I felt I had nothing to apologize for. I eventually quit the site over this. To add insult to injury, the other moderator I mentioned actually reached the same conclusion indepedently of myself - but that waa rarely if ever mentioned.

There are other problems I can think of off the top if my head. Frog was given an unlimited duration infraction for ragequittung (they ragequit over insults, I myswlf have gotten them to RQ once). which I think is absurd and extremely harsh given that Frog is both a pretty good player and nowhere near as toxic as some other people who havent been given an infraction. Note that Frog actually never received a warning about his repeated RQs and may not have known about the rule for ragequitting, as up until that point, it had very rarely been applied. I dont think I saw anyone getting infracted over it in over 2 years.

One other problem is IMO efe getting greylisted. I will talk about that a bit more later.

[Mesk514]

Honestly, when it comes to Efe, he is probably one of the most sweetest souls there is. We are a toxic community, yet inclusive. Efe is young. He should have been given the opportunity to continue growing within our community.

[rumox]

I feel as though personal feelings towards efe are clouding this. Numerous people had high discontent in regards to him in games, myself included. To play with Efe was a flip of a coin which people did not like.

Instead of facing his abbrasive game behavior he just straight up quit the website. He isn't dumb, he knows what he is doing so he doesn't need any coddling either.

This is my opinion as an FM player and someone who used to talk with him fairly regularly on discord before his self banishment, not as an Administrator. Efe happened before I was Admin

[Mesk514]

Eh, I didn't say he was a saint, but I've also seen worse.

[rumox]

I'd also point out that being grey listed doesn't mean he cannot play, it's just he has an extra hoop to jump through and that he isn't guaranteed a slot simply by signing up. If he would rather just spit the dummy than work towards being less abrasive then that's on him TBH. And yeah I agree there are worse but when I was playing FM consistently which was around the same time Efekann was also playing FM consistently, there would ALWAYS be arguments end of game in regards to him... veteran members as well as new members.

[FrostByte]

People asked me to make a thread about the experience I have with mismoderation. Well, here it is.
Back in 2017 (?) when I signed up I used an email address that had my first and last names in it; someone found my Facebook (I’m 99% sure of this), that someone was a red. I will not reveal who it was, merely that it was tough as hell to get them demoted or anything. I submitted a report to someone who was higher up but they in turn had no authority and had to submit a report themselves - nothing came of it.

And still nothing has come of it?

[FrostByte]

The other problem that I referred was when I was briefly FM Moderator. We (another moderator and I) saw evidence of extreme toxicity coming from a certain player in S-FM Magellan (a game i was the host of). Now, I made several mistakes along the way, chiefly telling people in dead chat the player in question would be infracted. But the real problem in this scenario was the fact that the person in question kept trying to insulr me to stir a negative response - and staff did absolutely nothing about this. I was left to endure an extremely stressful attack by that player (relentless, they would follow me around the site and shit) all by myself - all the while while people on staff were urging me to apologize, which I disagrees with because I felt I had nothing to apologize for. I eventually quit the site over this. To add insult to injury, the other moderator I mentioned actually reached the same conclusion indepedently of myself - but that waa rarely if ever mentioned.

This is why you put a host's discretion rule in effect and warn them. If they keep doing it then replace them. If they keep posting after they've been replaced I'm pretty sure they'd get banned instead of an infraction for insulting. Let them back themselves into a corner and pull the rug out from under them.

[rumox]

And still nothing has come of it?

There is another side to this story, I will ping that person to come here but in the mean time they already addressed this point he made in the other thread (where he said he was doxxed) in staff chat

He’s talking about me, he believes I abused my powers to dox him years ago because I guessed his first name after multiple tries after he was like “it means blah blah in this language” and some other hints with his world of Warcraft name and other stuff I can’t remember anymore but it was basically like he kept giving hints until I got it. this was back when I was a blue, we used Skype, and Helz was in charge and had to defend myself to Helz and he cleared me.

If it's not this person then I have no idea who he is talking about.

[rumox]

In regards to your segment about Banana, since you don't provide any examples I can only assume you mean the cafuffles that happened in political discussion threads between you two. I can only go by memory cause I really cbf trawling through threads to find instances of what you are talking about, but I do recall you being upset that Banana was calling you a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer. Now I can agree with you right there that it isn't very cash money to do that, BUT the context was people of a political leaning failing to condemn Nazis within their own ranks therefore becoming complicit with Nazis. I think it's perfectly fine to call someone out for this because it's bullshit and that's exactly the kind of stuff the section is there to discuss.

Another one is where you reported this post by Banana for the reason "Mischaracterisation, trolling and ad hominems to the point of character assassination/harassment". Yes what Banana said can be a bit upsetting but given the context where you were arguing that people who fly the confederate flag aren't racists, I find the post fairly on point even if it is a stab at someone's character. I have a more nuanced opinion on it where I wouldn't call them flat-out racist, rather just ignorant. But I can logically see why people can instantly be labeled as being racist for flying the confederate flag and I have zero reason to defend a person who chose to fly the confederate flag due to the racist undertones associated with the flag.

See how a little context can change something? If you want to address something, give examples. Don't be vague because it just leaves shit up to assumptions.

IN ANY CASE, like I said a few times my opinion on the political forum where I am assuming all your disgruntled run ins with Banana happened is that it is an OPT IN experience where you accept that you can be subjected to personal insults and attacks of character. It is virtually impossible to avoid this on the internet, full of nerds, discussing the civil war... nazis... left/right ideologies... morality... racism... This really is my opinion of the internet in general.

[rumox]

And as for Frog, he wasn't given a permanent ban as far as I can tell, he was given an infraction. This was his infraction,

Message to User:
Please do not ragequit a game publicly; PM the host to deal with this kind of issues.

This infraction will be reversed if you play three FM games without breaking the rules, as per the verdict posted in the game.

The infraction was worth 7 points which isn't even enough for a temporary ban.

[Oberon]

My problem with Banana has nothing to do with the political threads. Thats just where it started.

[rumox]

Okay well FM is beyond me so I will let someone else take that one.

[rumox]

And as for Frog, he wasn't given a permanent ban as far as I can tell, he was given an infraction. This was his infraction,



The infraction was worth 7 points which isn't even enough for a temporary ban.

I misread the OP where I thought you said he was permanently banned lol.

You said it yourself he has a history of rage quitting FMs. Just because he got away with it in the past doesn't mean he gets to get away with it now. Quitting an FM/subbing out should be avoided at all costs. Subbing out for RL reasons is fair but rage quitting is unacceptable let alone doing it publicly. Why would anyone look forward to playing a FM with someone that has a history of rage quitting and throwing a spanner into the cogs? I sure as hell would feel hesitant to sign up to game if Frog was listed as a player because of his history. I also fail to see where the "punishment" is too harsh? What is the punishment? That he is only 3 points away from a temporary 1 day forum ban? SHIT! How harsh lol. He is still free to visit the website, he is still free to post, he is still free to play FM. There is literally no punishment he has felt other than the POTENTIAL of being temp banned if he breaks a rule worth 3 points or more, which starts at General Belligerence and Severe Insulting of Members levels of rule violations.

I never understood why people cared so much about these warnings and act as if they are being punished. It happens in the Arcade as well with watch-lists. Like bruh you are literally free to still play the game, we are just telling you do NOT do what you just did.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I feel as though personal feelings towards efe are clouding this. Numerous people had high discontent in regards to him in games, myself included. To play with Efe was a flip of a coin which people did not like.

Instead of facing his abbrasive game behavior he just straight up quit the website. He isn't dumb, he knows what he is doing so he doesn't need any coddling either.

This is my opinion as an FM player and someone who used to talk with him fairly regularly on discord before his self banishment, not as an Administrator. Efe happened before I was Admin

I'd also point out that being grey listed doesn't mean he cannot play, it's just he has an extra hoop to jump through and that he isn't guaranteed a slot simply by signing up. If he would rather just spit the dummy than work towards being less abrasive then that's on him TBH. And yeah I agree there are worse but when I was playing FM consistently which was around the same time Efekann was also playing FM consistently, there would ALWAYS be arguments end of game in regards to him... veteran members as well as new members.

Rumox explained it very well. Efe was driving people away from the site (this isn't just an assumption, it's something I was told when trying to recruit people to sign for games 1 or 2 years ago) and literally causing an argument at the end of EVERY SINGLE GAME about his behavior, because it was always borderline. He was asked countless times to change his behavior by many people, he was given many chances, and nothing changed, so the Greylist only seems appropriate. He can still play if both him and the community want it, by the way; he just doesn't. I really don't see how this is too harsh.

And as for Frog, he wasn't given a permanent ban as far as I can tell, he was given an infraction. This was his infraction,

The infraction was worth 7 points which isn't even enough for a temporary ban.

Once again, exactly this ^. He is literally free to play like any normal person; all he was told is not to do this again, and if he plays 3 games without doing it again, the infraction is reversed. It's not even a ban, it's an infraction for a repeated offense, and it's only fair; if I'm not mistaken (maybe I am but I don't think so), Frog himself wasn't angry or anything like that about the infraction.

[oops_ur_dead]

I straight up do not give a shit about the individual things anyone in this thread has listed. I don't have enough context, nor do I want to make a judgment either way (except for the thing with Frog, RQing games is absolutely game-ruining and should be punished if it's consistently done). However, let me use my eternal staff wisdom to redirect the discussion in a more constructive direction:

What is the core problem here, and solutions do you propose, @Oberon ? What kind of broad rule changes, guidelines, etc. do you want to see in place that will solve each of your issues? Since I see you have one or two points about undermoderation, and one or two about overmoderation, surely the answer isn't just broadly "moderate less" or "moderate more". It might be more useful and less stressful to state what you think the core issues are, and maybe think of ways to solve them.

I'm not here to put in place any changes or think of solutions, or even tell anyone what to do. And I won't do anything, both because I don't think it's my place to do so, and also because I don't care that much. I just think it might be more productive for everyone to have this be a thread where you (and everyone else dissatisfied with things, for that matter) can state what you think is the root problem that led to these events, rather than having it be a list of times that you didn't like some staff decision, then the response from staff is to explain each individual one.

[Oberon]

People undermoderate because they are cowards; they overmoderate to compensate. At least most people. The person who doxxed is genuinrly just a creepy, shitty human being, but I would say thats the exception rather than the rule.

The solution? Get new staff. Or staff needs to grow some balls.

[Oberon]

I'd also point out that being grey listed doesn't mean he cannot play, it's just he has an extra hoop to jump through and that he isn't guaranteed a slot simply by signing up. If he would rather just spit the dummy than work towards being less abrasive then that's on him TBH. And yeah I agree there are worse but when I was playing FM consistently which was around the same time Efekann was also playing FM consistently, there would ALWAYS be arguments end of game in regards to him... veteran members as well as new members.

Well the way you’re putting as a token punishment... its not really a token punishment. People will look at that and think there is a reason Efe is on this graylist and will be reticent to let him sign for their games - especially if they dont know him.

Lets not forget about the social impact of getting your very own special not-ban-list. It just shamed him. And theres 100% no reason for it to still be enforced. Efe was annoying at times but he did play to win... he just has a very peculiar way of doing it. I dont think Efe actually wants to gamethrow.

He actually stopped playing FM after he got graylisted, btw

[Oberon]

Rumox explained it very well. Efe was driving people away from the site (this isn't just an assumption, it's something I was told when trying to recruit people to sign for games 1 or 2 years ago) and literally causing an argument at the end of EVERY SINGLE GAME about his behavior, because it was always borderline. He was asked countless times to change his behavior by many people, he was given many chances, and nothing changed, so the Greylist only seems appropriate. He can still play if both him and the community want it, by the way; he just doesn't. I really don't see how this is too harsh.


Once again, exactly this ^. He is literally free to play like any normal person; all he was told is not to do this again, and if he plays 3 games without doing it again, the infraction is reversed. It's not even a ban, it's an infraction for a repeated offense, and it's only fair; if I'm not mistaken (maybe I am but I don't think so), Frog himself wasn't angry or anything like that about the infraction.

1. Efe made games fun lol. Like I said he could be annoying but he wasnt borderline. Youre forgetting that youre talking about an autistic person who doesnt even understand sarcasm; Efe genuinely believes hes playing to win and doesnt understand why everyone else hates him. I like efe, as annoying as he could be at times. Again, hilarious how PTB isnt banned but Efe

2. Frog may not have been aware of the rule against RQ’ing and even if he was the rule is very rarely applied (the game where aamirus quit was the first time id ever seen that rule applied and its 100% not the first time people RQ’d. On a different note I think aamirus’ punishmemt was far too harsh; she couldnt gain points from ladder games that ‘season’, I believe she also got an infraction?). In light of that he should just have gotten a warning. I don’t actually know why people are acting like getting infracted isnt a big deal.

SO: TL;DR forgive and forget. We’re a small community, we cant afford to drive people away just because we’re strict about the rules. I like to think of this as a gathering of friends; you dont ban people in friend groups, lol, you talk to them and make it clear what they did was wrong. You only act when the person becomes a serious, malicious threat to the site. So you act when someone like PTB joins games and is super toxic towards everyone in the game.

[Voss]

As for the bit about "making me apologize when I had nothing to apologize for": I very much value staff members that can bend their pride to apologize for things even if the staff members believe they're in the right. It's a very important tactic for diffusing the situation and, for the most part, you were doing the exact opposite. If anything, that whole situation has taught me to screen for that kind of egotistical behavior sooner so it doesn't become a problem in the future.

SO: TL;DR forgive and forget. We’re a small community, we cant afford to drive people away just because we’re strict about the rules. I like to think of this as a gathering of friends; you dont ban people in friend groups, lol, you talk to them and make it clear what they did was wrong. You only act when the person becomes a serious, malicious threat to the site. So you act when someone like PTB joins games and is super toxic towards everyone in the game.

If you're concerned about driving people away, please stop creating drama on the forums by bringing up outdated shit or painting good moderation actions (which efe and frog were) as bad abuse. And while your at it, take your boundary-testing, spammy, and extremely racist shit to a site that appreciates it. No one respectable wants to see that kind of erratic outbursting.

[Oberon]

Im pretty sure nobody has quit the site over what I say in circlejerk and whatnot. One cannot say the same about what admins do tho.

Interesting that you’re taking this so personally though.

[Voss]

There's a difference between those that slowly and silently pull away and those that make dramatic sob 'I'm leaving' posts. One of those groups comes back. (Hint it's not the first one). If we have to lose a couple of rage quitters and game throwers because of staff doing their job, I see that as a win win.

It makes me want to vomit to see you preaching community connectedness when you're shitting on the volunteer staff.

[Stealthbomber16]

Oberon I’m extremely confused about why if you consider what banana is doing as bullying you haven’t just blocked him (or me).

I did that to efe for a while and I did it to light after he was demoted.

The sole issue I have with rank permissions on this site is the fact you can’t add staff members to your ignore list. If I choose to, I should have the ability to say “fuck you voss” and block all of his posts until he updates the narrator

[Oberon]

There's a difference between those that slowly and silently pull away and those that make dramatic sob 'I'm leaving' posts. One of those groups comes back. (Hint it's not the first one). If we have to lose a couple of rage quitters and game throwers because of staff doing their job, I see that as a win win.

It makes me want to vomit to see you preaching community connectedness when you're shitting on the volunteer staff.

Not sure why you’d bring the first point up. I agree but it seems out of context.
As for the second one. Volunteer staff have powers. Thats like volunteering for having more power. I would totally shit on someone who was enforcer in Skwirl for example if they werent doing their job or abusing their power, and everyone there is a volunteer.

[Oberon]

Oberon I’m extremely confused about why if you consider what banana is doing as bullying you haven’t just blocked him (or me).

I did that to efe for a while and I did it to light after he was demoted.

The sole issue I have with rank permissions on this site is the fact you can’t add staff members to your ignore list. If I choose to, I should have the ability to say “fuck you voss” and block all of his posts until he updates the narrator

I did

[Oberon]

I did

As in, I blocked Banana. Not you.

[Voss]

Shitting on someone/people might solve a couple of problems, but it more often exacerbates them. Try suggest solutions in a constructive and humble manner. Otherwise, it just shows you don't have the tact to solve people problems.

[BananaCucho]

Rofl

[theoneceko]

Shitting on someone/people might solve a couple of problems, but it more often exacerbates them. Try suggest solutions in a constructive and humble manner. Otherwise, it just shows you don't have the tact to solve people problems.

+1

[theoneceko]

Oberon I’m extremely confused about why if you consider what banana is doing as bullying you haven’t just blocked him (or me).

I did that to efe for a while and I did it to light after he was demoted.

The sole issue I have with rank permissions on this site is the fact you can’t add staff members to your ignore list. If I choose to, I should have the ability to say “fuck you voss” and block all of his posts until he updates the narrator

was s-fm magellan before or after banana got promoted to red knight?

[Stealthbomber16]

was s-fm magellan before or after banana got promoted to red knight?

that's not a promotion thats a title ceko

[BananaCucho]

I had to kiss a lot of ass for this promotion Stealth, don't downplay it

[Renegade]

Banana wasn't really toxic in magellan.

I was there. The toxic person was Frog who was infracted correctly for it.

[Varcron]

I have one word that ties this entire thread together


Huh?

[Oberon]

There is another side to this story, I will ping that person to come here but in the mean time they already addressed this point he made in the other thread (where he said he was doxxed) in staff chat



If it's not this person then I have no idea who he is talking about.

Btw this person claimed when I questioned them that they followed a google trail. Now they deduced it from me constantly mentioning a name? I don’t think I ever mentioned what ‘Vlad’ (my first name), means in Romanian, because it doesnt actually mean anything. It means something in I believe Russian.

And they outed my nationality at a time when I was private about it, nobody knew I was Romanian.

[Oberon]

642D19AB-30CC-4B60-9947-75F30867C64E.jpeg

[rumox]

I have no idea who it is or what happened so I can't really comment further other than saying if you are inviting someone to guess your name with hints they are most likely going to google those hints lol

[Voss]

O oldies from the time before time, I have a query.

Am I wrong, or did Ash get banned for doxxing Slaol? What was the situation behind that?

[Oberon]

I have one word that ties this entire thread together


Huh?

Interesting

[Oberon]

I have no idea who it is or what happened so I can't really comment further other than saying if you are inviting someone to guess your name with hints they are most likely going to google those hints lol

I didnt, I just said ‘you cant dox me’

[Oberon]

Shitting on someone/people might solve a couple of problems, but it more often exacerbates them. Try suggest solutions in a constructive and humble manner. Otherwise, it just shows you don't have the tact to solve people problems.

Every time I talk about this it feels like I’m talking to a wall. When I’m polite staff are polite back but nothing happens. When I’m not I just get insulted. You’re right I don’t really have tact but I’m pretty much past the point of actually caring xD
I’ll be honest. I don’t think the situation we’re in can change. It would necessitate a change from above and given that most of the things staff do have been innocuous at best and horrible at worst I do not see that happening in either the short or long term future. Btw this did not use to be the case. We had a decentlt active community before Cryptonic came and then the site almost died. Multiple people were prepared to completely leave the site.

The reason it worked in the first place is because there was very little overmoderation. Off the top of my head, the only people that got infracted or banned for FM stuff were Arsonist... and... I legit cannot remember anyone else although I am certain there was someone else as well. Two. In. Over. Two. Years.

Contrast this with the amount of infractions that have been issued very recently. And you’re surprised many people hate staff? xD
I literally did give you ‘constructive feedback’. Its extremely simple. Just moderate LESS lol.
And dont abuse your powers to troll. I did that as an Enforcer on the Skwirl discord and honestly I got warned not to do it again (I make fake roles like ‘Cringe Enforcer’), because its admin abuse. I fully agree with that judgment and its something I hadnt considered. It also makes me understand what FrostByte is talking about and I feel like it has some merit.

And if anyone wants me to give an example, the admin bot getting changed to ‘yeeted’ just to troll me is a good example. Its not even the political part of it thats the problem - its the fact that an admin can do that and I cant.

There are other examples, but Id rather not open that can of worms.

[Oberon]

I honestly think it was better when there only two FM staff, MM and AIVION. I feel they worked great together on their own.

[theoneceko]

I had to kiss a lot of ass for this promotion Stealth, don't downplay it

me too. for the beta contributor title

[theoneceko]

that's not a promotion thats a title ceko

uvu

[DJarJar]

There is another side to this story, I will ping that person to come here but in the mean time they already addressed this point he made in the other thread (where he said he was doxxed) in staff chat



If it's not this person then I have no idea who he is talking about.

if this is about me tho honestly most of the details don't even line up then @mag helz said "If he has any issues with the judgement tell him to get in touch with me". So i'll pretty much leave it at that. I was a blue back then not an admin. I didn't and don't really know helz so i don't think i was under any special protection from him. Distorted and I were particularly unfriendly back then and apparently even he confirmed there was no doxxing that occurred (this was a public discussion in distorted's skwirl discord). I was confused back then why you were getting so conspiracy theory about it but after the last few months of serious discussion threads it makes sense now

[Oberon]

there is absolutely no way distorted said that. i dont want to bring him into this since he wants to avoid site drama but there is zero chance he would confirm such a thing. if he did he did it for the integrity of the server

funny how you scumpaint me from the get go and insinuate i am some kind of conspiract theorist lmfao.

[Oberon]

if this is about me tho honestly most of the details don't even line up then @mag helz said "If he has any issues with the judgement tell him to get in touch with me". So i'll pretty much leave it at that. I was a blue back then not an admin. I didn't and don't really know helz so i don't think i was under any special protection from him. Distorted and I were particularly unfriendly back then and apparently even he confirmed there was no doxxing that occurred (this was a public discussion in distorted's skwirl discord). I was confused back then why you were getting so conspiracy theory about it but after the last few months of serious discussion threads it makes sense now

its true you were a blue. Thats the only detail that doesnt match. Everything else does.
How did your story change from ‘I followed a Google trail’ to ‘I deduced it from clues’?
You yourself pretty much admitted to finding my FB.
If you didnt use my email address then you obviously had to have used something else. What?
My WoW name had the same name as email address but I never revealed what either of those were

[DJarJar]

642D19AB-30CC-4B60-9947-75F30867C64E.jpeg

i think i said like "OH I FOUND IT" then attached a picture of brian peppers, and then again "OH I FOUND IT i'm gonna keep these pictures in my spank bank for eternity". I don't think I actually found anything beyond "vlad" and i actually thought til now that you were dutch?

[Oberon]

You specifically said Romanian lol.

[DJarJar]

its true you were a blue. Thats the only detail that doesnt match. Everything else does.
How did your story change from ‘I followed a Google trail’ to ‘I deduced it from clues’?
You yourself pretty much admitted to finding my FB.
If you didnt use my email address then you obviously had to have used something else. What?

it's in the quote rumox posted earlier, i'm pretty sure you both gave details on a WoW account and also said your name means something in whatever language. both things were mentioned in said quote not just one? If i had something to hide from our discord pms I probably could have deleted them sometime in the last 2 years lol

[DJarJar]

You specifically said Romanian lol.

okay when i google what does vlad mean in romanian right now it comes up with "to rule". I feel like you said my name means to rule in romanian didn't you? it's like a simple google search i don't get where you get the conspiracy theory stuff from