covid 19 vaccine

[Voss]

I thought it might be fun to go down the rabbit hole and see the evidence trail

[OzyWho]

I thought it might be fun to go down the rabbit hole and see the evidence trail

I went down the rabbit hole for a total of like 1-2min by pressing the link in the description.

They claim that mental disorders don't exist because they can't be proven, and unreliable because the diagnosis go by a checklist.
>Both of those reasonings are correct: in psychology almost nothing can be proven (it's like a pseudoscience in that sense?), and diagnoses are done by checklists afaik. But I'm just not sure about the conclusion, especially since psychiatrists themselves seem to be on both side of the fences.

For the claim of psychiatric drugs dumbing down people, they provided proof is a link to a site where you can check up on the side effects of drugs.
>Side effects are indeed a thing, and there probably are medicines/drugs out there that are more bad than worth it. But we just have no way of knowing the extent of it - literally impossible for us imho.


Big pharmacy companies not being trustable is not exactly a new idea. But I'm not exactly aware of anything that points towards mallicious intent. The only times I know where they did damage was caused by either fallacious testing or doctors mistake.

I guess the closest that I know of where there might be mallicious is intent is the ongoing rumor wrt weed. How each time a big pharmacy company do a research to weed, their tests make it look bad, but when independent researches do it, they find positives to weed; and the former researches are anectdotaly bad. There's like infinite "documentries" on it though.

---

With regards to the topic of this thread though, here's my pov with it.
In the early 2020, the world health organization got together the best experts they could find and gave them infinite resources in order to come up with a "game plan" for the world so to speak.
That research was which basically all the countries based their actions on for the most part. I informed myself through it and thanks to that I knew in the early 202 that this pandemic would go on for years when most people still hoped or thought it'd last only for months.
The idea was to have the pandemic be on and off for multiple years to let the virus go through everyone in a controlled fashion. From the little superficial that I informed myself, I don't remember vaccines being talked about though. (but it might be, since I pretty much only cared for the summary so to speak)

This brings us more to the current day.
I observed some things:
-People pressuring their goverments, and in return the goverments/countries themselves ask for someone to release some sort of vaccine.
-Obviously thanks to the above, it was a race for the pharmaceutical companies for the money. (though, honestly, it's more the question of who becomes to bigger billionaire)
-There's some strange stuff going like Doctors being ordered to label a cause of death as Covid 19. (though it goes two ways, because many doctors have claimed that covid 19 causes of death have been under-counted due to a lack of tests)
-New laws come about that force vaccines on some people, like teachers. And indirectly forcing everyone due to all the restrictions they'd have otherwise.
-Some funny stuff like some doctors in my area themselves not vaccinating when they really should be lke the highest priority to do so, or how some nurses got caught not vaccinating but instead injecting them vitamins or sometihng like that / and they done it to hundreds. xD

Anyhow, after seeing many strange things, I decide to inform myself once again since the early 2020.
The problem is though that the Youtuber who previously made his content on basically reading and translating research papers to his audiance - that afformentioned research paper was the last he ever submitted. So, what's the next best thing for me? I go to the wold health organization homepage. They've a list of myths that are untrue, like drinking bleach won't cure covid 19 and stuff like that. But no links to any researches whatsoever. Not even statistics are provided there.
It's even worse on the rest of the internet, because not even anectdotal journalist blogs talk about Covid 19. I'm not even sure if Doctors are allowed to talk about it on most of the internet.
I literally can't find any fucking information at all now.

My best bet would be, if I were to vaccinate - I'd do it with a vaccine that was tested for the longest. But tbh, I don't believe everything can be tested so quick.

[OzyWho]

I went down the rabbit hole for a total of like 1-2min by pressing the link in the description.

They claim that mental disorders don't exist because they can't be proven, and unreliable because the diagnosis go by a checklist.
>Both of those reasonings are correct: in psychology almost nothing can be proven (it's like a pseudoscience in that sense?), and diagnoses are done by checklists afaik. But I'm just not sure about the conclusion, especially since psychiatrists themselves seem to be on both side of the fences.

For the claim of psychiatric drugs dumbing down people, they provided proof is a link to a site where you can check up on the side effects of drugs.
>Side effects are indeed a thing, and there probably are medicines/drugs out there that are more bad than worth it. But we just have no way of knowing the extent of it - literally impossible for us imho.


Big pharmacy companies not being trustable is not exactly a new idea. But I'm not exactly aware of anything that points towards mallicious intent. The only times I know where they did damage was caused by either fallacious testing or doctors mistake.

I guess the closest that I know of where there might be mallicious is intent is the ongoing rumor wrt weed. How each time a big pharmacy company do a research to weed, their tests make it look bad, but when independent researches do it, they find positives to weed; and the former researches are anectdotaly bad. There's like infinite "documentries" on it though.

---

With regards to the topic of this thread though, here's my pov with it.
In the early 2020, the world health organization got together the best experts they could find and gave them infinite resources in order to come up with a "game plan" for the world so to speak.
That research was which basically all the countries based their actions on for the most part. I informed myself through it and thanks to that I knew in the early 202 that this pandemic would go on for years when most people still hoped or thought it'd last only for months.
The idea was to have the pandemic be on and off for multiple years to let the virus go through everyone in a controlled fashion. From the little superficial that I informed myself, I don't remember vaccines being talked about though. (but it might be, since I pretty much only cared for the summary so to speak)

This brings us more to the current day.
I observed some things:
-People pressuring their goverments, and in return the goverments/countries themselves ask for someone to release some sort of vaccine.
-Obviously thanks to the above, it was a race for the pharmaceutical companies for the money. (though, honestly, it's more the question of who becomes to bigger billionaire)
-There's some strange stuff going like Doctors being ordered to label a cause of death as Covid 19. (though it goes two ways, because many doctors have claimed that covid 19 causes of death have been under-counted due to a lack of tests)
-New laws come about that force vaccines on some people, like teachers. And indirectly forcing everyone due to all the restrictions they'd have otherwise.
-Some funny stuff like some doctors in my area themselves not vaccinating when they really should be lke the highest priority to do so, or how some nurses got caught not vaccinating but instead injecting them vitamins or sometihng like that / and they done it to hundreds. xD

Anyhow, after seeing many strange things, I decide to inform myself once again since the early 2020.
The problem is though that the Youtuber who previously made his content on basically reading and translating research papers to his audiance - that afformentioned research paper was the last he ever submitted. So, what's the next best thing for me? I go to the wold health organization homepage. They've a list of myths that are untrue, like drinking bleach won't cure covid 19 and stuff like that. But no links to any researches whatsoever. Not even statistics are provided there.
It's even worse on the rest of the internet, because not even anectdotal journalist blogs talk about Covid 19. I'm not even sure if Doctors are allowed to talk about it on most of the internet.
I literally can't find any fucking information at all now.

My best bet would be, if I were to vaccinate - I'd do it with a vaccine that was tested for the longest. But tbh, I don't believe everything can be tested so quick.

In my personal opinion, this whole pandemic and vaccine ordeal feels just Kafkaesque.

[Voss]

I went down the rabbit hole for a total of like 1-2min by pressing the link in the description.

They claim that mental disorders don't exist because they can't be proven, and unreliable because the diagnosis go by a checklist.
>Both of those reasonings are correct: in psychology almost nothing can be proven (it's like a pseudoscience in that sense?), and diagnoses are done by checklists afaik. But I'm just not sure about the conclusion, especially since psychiatrists themselves seem to be on both side of the fences.

For the claim of psychiatric drugs dumbing down people, they provided proof is a link to a site where you can check up on the side effects of drugs.
>Side effects are indeed a thing, and there probably are medicines/drugs out there that are more bad than worth it. But we just have no way of knowing the extent of it - literally impossible for us imho.


Big pharmacy companies not being trustable is not exactly a new idea. But I'm not exactly aware of anything that points towards mallicious intent. The only times I know where they did damage was caused by either fallacious testing or doctors mistake.

I guess the closest that I know of where there might be mallicious is intent is the ongoing rumor wrt weed. How each time a big pharmacy company do a research to weed, their tests make it look bad, but when independent researches do it, they find positives to weed; and the former researches are anectdotaly bad. There's like infinite "documentries" on it though.

---

With regards to the topic of this thread though, here's my pov with it.
In the early 2020, the world health organization got together the best experts they could find and gave them infinite resources in order to come up with a "game plan" for the world so to speak.
That research was which basically all the countries based their actions on for the most part. I informed myself through it and thanks to that I knew in the early 202 that this pandemic would go on for years when most people still hoped or thought it'd last only for months.
The idea was to have the pandemic be on and off for multiple years to let the virus go through everyone in a controlled fashion. From the little superficial that I informed myself, I don't remember vaccines being talked about though. (but it might be, since I pretty much only cared for the summary so to speak)

This brings us more to the current day.
I observed some things:
-People pressuring their goverments, and in return the goverments/countries themselves ask for someone to release some sort of vaccine.
-Obviously thanks to the above, it was a race for the pharmaceutical companies for the money. (though, honestly, it's more the question of who becomes to bigger billionaire)
-There's some strange stuff going like Doctors being ordered to label a cause of death as Covid 19. (though it goes two ways, because many doctors have claimed that covid 19 causes of death have been under-counted due to a lack of tests)
-New laws come about that force vaccines on some people, like teachers. And indirectly forcing everyone due to all the restrictions they'd have otherwise.
-Some funny stuff like some doctors in my area themselves not vaccinating when they really should be lke the highest priority to do so, or how some nurses got caught not vaccinating but instead injecting them vitamins or sometihng like that / and they done it to hundreds. xD

Anyhow, after seeing many strange things, I decide to inform myself once again since the early 2020.
The problem is though that the Youtuber who previously made his content on basically reading and translating research papers to his audiance - that afformentioned research paper was the last he ever submitted. So, what's the next best thing for me? I go to the wold health organization homepage. They've a list of myths that are untrue, like drinking bleach won't cure covid 19 and stuff like that. But no links to any researches whatsoever. Not even statistics are provided there.
It's even worse on the rest of the internet, because not even anectdotal journalist blogs talk about Covid 19. I'm not even sure if Doctors are allowed to talk about it on most of the internet.
I literally can't find any fucking information at all now.

My best bet would be, if I were to vaccinate - I'd do it with a vaccine that was tested for the longest. But tbh, I don't believe everything can be tested so quick.

(My tone is going to change to be a more respectful one in this response)

From this post, it sounds like there are two reasons why you are vaccine hesitant.
1. You can't find research (although what research you are looking for is unclear)
2. It hasn't been tested long enough.

To address the first point:
What is the topic of research that you want to look for? And if it's vaccine research, is there another source you'd be willing to trust? For me, I'd trust my doctor (or other primary care provider). If my doctor is a fuck up, it's beyond my control and the universe will just take me back.

To address the second point:
The way I understand the science behind the vaccine is that the mRNA technology that it's based on has been in development for a decade and a half ish. The "new" part about this is encoding the covid19 protein that the mRNA vaccine is supposed to attack.
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/52424.html
So, I liken this to the safety of a cars. We trust the new 2022 Toyota Camry as a safe car even though it was developed very recently BECAUSE the underlying technology behind cars have been around for decades on decades.

What would you say is the appropriate amount of wait time for testing? I don't think saying "idk, just an indefinite longer amount" is defensible.

(If anyone thinks my analogies are misleading/bad, please call me out on it).

[OzyWho]

To address the first point:
What is the topic of research that you want to look for? And if it's vaccine research, is there another source you'd be willing to trust? For me, I'd trust my doctor (or other primary care provider). If my doctor is a fuck up, it's beyond my control and the universe will just take me back.

What do you mean by source? Do you mean interpretations of research?
What I'd want is to have access to research to begin with. After all, we are talking about an industry that has a terrible track record with fraud, bribery, lawsuits and scandals. Frankly, I don't know why you would want to put something in your body you can't get any info on, it just sounds absurd to me. Maybe there won't be hundreds of thousands of heart attacks like it was with Vioxx for example, but we're talking about taking something on nothing but blind faith. Even your own doctor is giving you your vaccine on blind faith.

What would you say is the appropriate amount of wait time for testing? I don't think saying "idk, just an indefinite longer amount" is defensible.

I'd feel better if we had any access to how the tests went o begin with. But regards appropriate amount of testing time, from what I can find, some sources say that phase 3 trial can take 1-4 years, some say 10-15 years. First have to get to phase 3 to begin with though. Seems to be that around 2 years should be good, one and a half year the bear minimum.

[oops_ur_dead]

I'd feel better if we had any access to how the tests went o begin with. But regards appropriate amount of testing time, from what I can find, some sources say that phase 3 trial can take 1-4 years, some say 10-15 years. First have to get to phase 3 to begin with though. Seems to be that around 2 years should be good, one and a half year the bear minimum.

Did you know that the flu vaccine is different every year, and is tested for a much shorter period of time than the COVID vaccine was ever tested for? Are you similarly hesitant of getting a seasonal flu shot?

[OzyWho]

Did you know that the flu vaccine is different every year, and is tested for a much shorter period of time than the COVID vaccine was ever tested for?

Idk anything about flu vaccines, but I realize the relevance given the frequent covid 19 mutations.
Where did you get your info on COVID vaccines?

[yzb25]

Frankly, I don't know why you would want to put something in your body you can't get any info on, it just sounds absurd to me. Maybe there won't be hundreds of thousands of heart attacks like it was with Vioxx for example, but we're talking about taking something on nothing but blind faith. Even your own doctor is giving you your vaccine on blind faith.

Well, for me, it's not simply about whether the vaccine is dangerous. It's about whether it's so dangerous it would kill more people than if covid was left to rampage freely - because realistically that's the alternative. Even after accounting for all the covid deaths, you also have to consider the number of people that would die from lack of care due to hospitals surpassing capacity.

So yeah, unless it actually is causing "hundreds of thousands of heart attacks", and you think death statistics are being systematically overstated by entire orders of magnitude, from a utilitarian perspective it seemed like a no brainer to me. If I get a blood clot or something as a result, then fuck my luck lol.

[OzyWho]

What would you say is the appropriate amount of wait time for testing? I don't think saying "idk, just an indefinite longer amount" is defensible.

Ftr, I did re-visit the aforementioned paper and it did predict a vaccine within 12-18 months, so that's cool.

Well, for me, it's not simply about whether the vaccine is dangerous. It's about whether it's so dangerous it would kill more people than if covid was left to rampage freely - because realistically that's the alternative. Even after accounting for all the covid deaths, you also have to consider the number of people that would die from lack of care due to hospitals surpassing capacity.

So yeah, unless it actually is causing "hundreds of thousands of heart attacks", and you think death statistics are being systematically overstated by entire orders of magnitude, from a utilitarian perspective it seemed like a no brainer to me. If I get a blood clot or something as a result, then fuck my luck lol.

Yah, looking at the current death per case ratio for different countries, it seems that it's around 2%. Which is surprising because in the early 2020 the estimates were 2% only if you're over 70 years old. (which I suppose even then was reason enough to do herd protection of the risk group?)

2% is a really high number wtf...

[yzb25]

Ftr, I did re-visit the aforementioned paper and it did predict a vaccine within 12-18 months, so that's cool.



Yah, looking at the current death per case ratio for different countries, it seems that it's around 2%. Which is surprising because in the early 2020 the estimates were 2% only if you're over 70 years old. (which I suppose even then was reason enough to do herd protection of the risk group?)

2% is a really high number wtf...

yeah, it's not really something I can wrap my head around honestly.