Cult games

[Etheopian]

Testing methodology:

I played 100 public Mafia games using my cult save and recorded the results.

Mason Leader
Mason
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Power
Town Killing
Town random
Auditor
Neutral Benign
Neutral Killing
Neutral Killing
Witch Doctor
Cultist

Notable settings:

Bodyguard stops cultist conversion - OFF
Doctor stops cultist conversion - OFF
Doctor is notified of cultist conversion - OFF
Witch Doctor immune to detection - ON
No limits to witch doctor conversion
Cult converts every night
Cult can convert night immune roles
Mason Leader limited to 3 recruitings/killings

Results:

Sample size: 100
Cult win: 24
Town win: 49
Evils win: 27


Of the 24 games where Cult won...

Witch Doctor saved someone on n1 in 18 of them.
Cult successfully converted on n1 in 23 of them.
Witch doctor saved someone on n1 AND cult converted someone on n1 in 13 of them.
At least 1 cultist and the witch doctor survived n1 in 22 of them.
At least one Mason leader used all 3 of his charges in 9 of them.
Cult ended the game with an average of 3.9 members alive and 5.8 members total.

Of the 76 games where cult lost...

Cult failed to convert on n1 in 26 of them.
Cultist or witch doctor were killed on n1 by Mason leader in 17 of them.
Cultist or witch doctor were killed on n1 by someone other than Mason leader in 9 of them.
At least one Mason leader used all 3 of his charges in 37 of them.
Cult ended the game with an average of 3.3 members total (none alive, assuming tiebreaker means 0 cult alive).

Takeaways and Analysis:

If cult fails to convert on n1, it is virtually a death sentence for the cult.
If cult has approximately 4 members alive and approximately 6 members total, it is looking like a win.

Cult play is highly dependent on getting a good start. It seems that in order to get a "good" start, cult has to convert someone and save someone on n1. Anything less than that is an "ok" start. If there are less than 3 cult members after n1, it is a very bad start.

In short, the whiners and complainers have no basis for hating the cult save. Cult needs miracles to win a game. You're more likely to win as a SK than as cult.

These results are particular to this setup and will not apply to other setups.

[Voss]

Cool analysis man!

[Drizzt]

Very well done! I may PM you for stats questions in the future. I forget the rule but a sample size above 70 something 71, 72, or 75 I can't remember is the min size for an statistical analysis, so 100 games is pretty good- although given the chaotic nature of mafia a sample of 1000 would be even better. BUT, and this is just my spit-balling, I don't think the % would change much. While I'm not willing to trade my current -save for a cult save, lol, I do appreciate the work and would gladly play this save- assuming the date is accurate. Thank you for compiling the information, and I'd like to add you as a friend so I can play this save.

[JoeyDX]

YOU STOLE FIZZY LIFTING DRINKS!

[Renegade]

Cult is broken.

One simple reason is the explicit inclusion of AUDITOR to HELP the town recruit masons to prevent cult from becoming overwhelming. If your save needs an evil to help the town win then it is broken.

And convert every night is totally a sham.

Roles should not be changing alignments in general.

[Renegade]

And this "analysis" is only for explicit cult saves, which generally I'm okay with. How about an analysis where goofy broken cult rolls a neutral slot in a standard 8331 or 933?

And finally, cult is not fun to play or play against, due to the alignment change factor.

[Renegade]

What are the stats on auditor targets being recruited to masons? I bet it is extremely high due to people generally claiming they are audited in these saves.

BROKEN.

[MrMostache]

Your analysis is missing a very important detail:
How many times was Mason or Mason Leader killed/audited n1(or even n2)?

In your save, it is ideal to focus on the Masons vs cults aspect, because that's all that matters. Once masons are unable to kill anymore (because they are busy converting citizens, or re-recruiting the masons that got audited), the optimal winning strategy for everyone involved in the game is to join cult.

If you a neutral killer, you actually should consider joining the cult, in return for conversion and killing some townies. That will increase you winning chance alot.
If you are town, and want to win, you should consider joining the cult, because masons have been hindered, and you are better off winning with cult than risk not getting converted and losing the game.

If masons are weakened, everyone, except masons, auditor, benign should beg to be converted to cult (if they know what's good for them).
and I'm not even talking about gamethrowing, just some people who are unsure if they side against cult.

[Yodaddy2]

First off, I have no issue with your save or cult saves in general unless there is no confirm auditor. So, from my understanding you are posting this because you believe that your save is balanced and overall a good save to play. You’re saying people shouldn’t whine and complain about your save and that’s totally fine. I’m asking that you will return the favor not only to my 8331 save but to others as well. Griefing and leaving when I get host is not only against the rules but it ruins the game for the other 14 people as well. Everyone has their own opinion and I have played some terrible saves, but I play through it now. I’m simply requesting that you do your part and not complain or break the rules during someone else’s save and they will most likely return the favor.

[Renegade]

First off, I have no issue with your save or cult saves in general unless there is no confirm auditor. So, from my understanding you are posting this because you believe that your save is balanced and overall a good save to play. You’re saying people shouldn’t whine and complain about your save and that’s totally fine. I’m asking that you will return the favor not only to my 8331 save but to others as well. Griefing and leaving when I get host is not only against the rules but it ruins the game for the other 14 people as well. Everyone has their own opinion and I have played some terrible saves, but I play through it now. I’m simply requesting that you do your part and not complain or break the rules during someone else’s save and they will most likely return the favor.

Yoddady your save is broken, but for other reasons. But that should be reserved for a different topic. Here we are talking about how cult is a broken game mechanic.

Thanks!

[Voss]

Let's try to stay on topic and not shame the work that etheopian has done here. Cult or not, it's a pretty cool view.

[Renegade]

Yes, this is good work; I would like to see how many times:
1. auditor audited
2. audited citizens were recruited to mason

I can imagine the answers, and it will prove that cult saves are broken because town depends on an evil role to win.

[Yodaddy2]

I am not getting off topic, thanks. I was responding to this 2nd to last paragraph, thanks. Cult saves are not broken. You can break saves down into odds. I’ll make an example for the one given.

Town winning - 4-1
Cult winning - 7-2
Neutral killing winning - 10-1
Solo Neutral winning - 20-1

The odds given is how I think the outcome will occur. Teams or solo roles will go up and down on how the outcome goes during the game. If ML or Mason gets audited n1 then the town chances of winning go down and town is in the hole and will need some help making a comeback. If Cultist dies n1 then the cult is pretty much done unless WD can save someone, so the chance of Cult winning took a huge hit. Etc Etc

Odds can be used in many standard saves like this one, 933, or 8331. Example, if Mayor gets hit by the mafia n1, town is losing dramatically and will need help making a comeback. I have a standard 8331 and mafia has a 12-1 chance to hit Town Govt n1. I call it luck if Govt dies n1. Vise Versa if GF gets blasted by a vet n1 as well.

Overall, you have to look at the odds and whatever happens during the game...happens. If Govt or Cultist die n1 don’t give up, just try and make a comeback. It’s all about having fun too.

[Renegade]

Cult saves are broken and not fun to play. Very simple!

[Renegade]

If you need a neutral evil role (auditor) in the save to "balance" it (so town can recruit masons), your save is broken!

[Zedus]

Testing methodology:

I played 100 public Mafia games using my cult save and recorded the results.

Thanks for analytics, but it's not YOUR cult save. I created it long ago, tested a lot, brought from EU to NA and always claim this as "best balanced cult save". I am author of this setup, don't try to stole it. It's outrageous

Cult is broken.

One simple reason is the explicit inclusion of AUDITOR to HELP the town recruit masons to prevent cult from becoming overwhelming. If your save needs an evil to help the town win then it is broken.

Renegade so Renegade
Hint: Smart auditor will never audit at random, like you doing. He will wait until some important role (like ML) will be revealed. If you have some ability, you also have the Ultimate Power NOT TO USE it.

[Zedus]

The main thing about good cult save (like my or Dark Heresy) is that it needs smart play from every side. That's why bad players mostly hate cult setups and cry "cult is OP and broken".
It's not.

Playing cult setup with good players is great experience.

[Renegade]

Thanks for analytics, but it's not YOUR cult save. I created it long ago, tested a lot, brought from EU to NA and always claim this as "best balanced cult save". I am author of this setup, don't try to stole it. It's outrageous



Renegade so Renegade
Hint: Smart auditor will never audit at random, like you doing. He will wait until some important role (like ML) will be revealed. If you have some ability, you also have the Ultimate Power NOT TO USE it.

Of course whenever I roll auditor in these trash saves I don't audit, since it only helps the town.

And go figure you are now claiming to be the author of a terribly broken save. Goofy!

[Zedus]

And go figure you are now claiming to be the author of a terribly broken save. Goofy!

I do not agree with your opinion, but think you are a truly wonderful individual.

[Zedus]

Your analysis is missing a very important detail:
How many times was Mason or Mason Leader killed/audited n1(or even n2)?

I will answer, because it's me who created this setup, not that dirty impostor.
First version of this setup includes only one mason leader, and I added mason later to balance it. Town winrate with 1 ML was low, mostly because Mason Leader sometimes die n1-n2.

If you a neutral killer, you actually should consider joining the cult, in return for conversion and killing some townies.

Neut killer cannot join the cult. Immunity prevents conversion in my save, so neut killer will always play vs cult.

If you are town, and want to win, you should consider joining the cult, because masons have been hindered, and you are better off winning with cult than risk not getting converted and losing the game.

That's why cult need 1 night between conversions. If this option is off, setup doesn't works at all. Cult cannot grow fast in my setup.

The main thing I realy need in MY setup (Epheopean, burn in hell, thief) is some way to not have double arso in game. That's why I lowered arso chance in my setup. Double sk and double mm can team up and game become more extreme. Double arso will just burn whole town d3 (that's why I set "victim knows he is doused" ON).

[Zedus]

First off, I have no issue with your save or cult saves in general unless there is no confirm auditor. So, from my understanding you are posting this because you believe that your save is balanced and overall a good save to play.

Once more, it's my setup, Epheopean is thief. Auditor highly needed in this setup. I tryed a lot of variants to balance it, and the best thing is to add auditor to make some neutral pressure on ML early reveal. In the over case smart town can cooperate very easy. Yes, dumb auditor can just help town with random targeting, but, as I said, this is intermediate-level setup, I will never use it if we have noob lobby.

[MrMostache]

I will answer, because it's me who created this setup, not that dirty impostor.
First version of this setup includes only one mason leader, and I added mason later to balance it. Town winrate with 1 ML was low, mostly because Mason Leader sometimes die n1-n2.


Neut killer cannot join the cult. Immunity prevents conversion in my save, so neut killer will always play vs cult.



That's why cult need 1 night between conversions. If this option is off, setup doesn't works at all. Cult cannot grow fast in my setup.

The main thing I realy need in MY setup (Epheopean, burn in hell, thief) is some way to not have double arso in game. That's why I lowered arso chance in my setup. Double sk and double mm can team up and game become more extreme. Double arso will just burn whole town d3 (that's why I set "victim knows he is doused" ON).

So what you are saying, is that this is not your save, because Etheopean settings are way different than yours.

[Zedus]

So what you are saying, is that this is not your save, because Etheopean settings are way different than yours.

Role list is copied from my personal setup. Once I played terrible verson of MY setup with cult converting every night and ignoring immunity. So someone (maybe that was this thief, don't remember) just copied my setup and made it worse and broken. But it's still my setup. In it's good, balanced original version there is same role list and settings I explained before. Without that settings this will be bad setup, because, as you correctly said, if cult can convert every night, cult wins and town will prefer to join cult. That means Epheopean is not only impostor, stolen my setup, but also wrecker, who ruined the good and balanced original settings.

[Zedus]

Realy, is it Ok here to stole someone's idea, wreck it a with changing good and balanced settings and pass it as own? He called this setup "my cult save". No, it's MY cult save, wrecked by his crooked hands. Outrageous!

[Zedus]

Removing "Immunity prevents conversion" make this setup absurd. With original and correct settings my save is real mindgame. This spoiled version is one of the reasons ppl hate cult setups. Even sk/mm/arso can be converted, what's the poing in playing this?

If something works well, just don’t touch it.

And do not dare to appropriate other people's ideas.

[Renegade]

Hahahahahaha, good luck trying to copywrite a setup.

[Etheopian]

I am glad my post has initiated some discussion on the topic.

Unfortunately, I did not track any data beyond what I already posted.

The Auditor/Mason/Cult dynamic is one that must be studied more closely in the future. Auditor can help the town by creating more citizens to be turned into masons, but it can also end the town if the Masons are audited. Usually the latter is what I've observed in practice.

[Renegade]

I've never seen auditors harm town enough. Why audit masons when they will be rerecruited?

[Renegade]

Auditors exist in these saves explicitly to help town.

[Renegade]

And if you don't agree, then switch it with witch or some other neut evil and see how that goes

[Voss]

it sounds like auditor should just not use their role unless they need to. so good auditors will use it sparingly, and bad auditors will help town.

[Yodaddy2]

Once more, it's my setup, Epheopean is thief. Auditor highly needed in this setup. I tryed a lot of variants to balance it, and the best thing is to add auditor to make some neutral pressure on ML early reveal. In the over case smart town can cooperate very easy. Yes, dumb auditor can just help town with random targeting, but, as I said, this is intermediate-level setup, I will never use it if we have noob lobby.

I honestly could care less on whose save this is.

[MrMostache]

I've never seen auditors harm town enough. Why audit masons when they will be rerecruited?

Because re-recruiting masons means no cult kills, and no larger mason population.

[BananaCucho]

You guys should get a room and hatefuck already

[MaShY]

This is the room, and we're the mattress.