S-FM 302: Magellan (15p)

[DJarJar]

Stealth, I do value your opinion

You say that you agree with the point about Jan only. Do you agree that the punishment is just for that? Or do you think I should have received a warning like Frinckles did?

The punishment is out of left field. I'd rather the infraction tbh, as the infraction doesn't prevent me from playing.

Let’s say you and another player did the same thing. That player had no infraction history whilst you had recently earned a significant punishment for rage quitting. Would you not agree that you should receive a harsher judgement?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Right, so according to this, you believe that after my exchange with Rotholo where he continued to bait me with personal attacks of his own (and yes, telling someone they have anger issues and should seek professional help over and over IS a very personal attack) over and over in retaliation to me calling him "moron" and "idiot", he's completely off the hook for that

Yet according to your previous post I'm on the hook for going after Ganelon in a private DM off-site in retaliation for spending 2 weeks slandering me in dead chat

Makes logical sense

Also funny how this site is so inconsistent when it comes to off site messages. I insult Slaol in skype? 2 week ban. Duckk threatens to kill my kids in a private skype message? No punishment until he lashes out on the forum

No, I am not making it up. PROOF:

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post627669

But now when I insult a staff member (surprise surprise) thats taken into account for my punishment. Go figure.

Rotholfo said only once that you "should talk to someone about it", and then only said you had anger management issues... after you had called him an idiot and a moron thirce.
Although the host was mistaken on the quits (and yet had legitimate reasons to believe Jan had quit because of personal attacks), he remained civil. To handle this situation, you should have simply spoken against it and go in FM Reports & Appeals after the game to make sure your point was heard instead of personally attacking the host.

However, about the off-site conversations pertaining to on-site activities, you are absolutely right that there is a coherence issue there. I understand that it's easy for me to say this now that it's a past issue, but I'll say it anyway: death threats are absolutely unacceptable, and their author should have been permabanned immediatly. Unless there is opposition to this, I think the site rules should be updated to reflect that off-site conversations between members of Sc2 Mafia are also under the site rules to avoid this kind of confusion. It's only logical to do so, and it's already how it works for out-of-game communication anyway. And for what it's worth to you, I'm genuinely sorry that you had to deal with that.

[Stealthbomber16]

Let’s say you and another player did the same thing. That player had no infraction history whilst you had recently earned a significant punishment for rage quitting. Would you not agree that you should receive a harsher judgement?

For me it's not so much the punishment- I could understand an infraction or a short term game ban IF a player expressed disdain over banana's play (of which, correct me if I'm wrong, I did not see any)

I am worried about the lack of internal communication from the FM admins about this affair. We have received 3 completely contradictory statements coming from the 4 staff who made this decision.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Thank you for this post. I can agree with the section about Jan Korvin only, but I do disagree with the other points. My opinion is entirely moot though, due to the message given earlier, namely



I'm very curious as to the level of communication happening behind the scenes here. Two of the reasons you mention here were completely disregarded from the official message given by the FM staff team literally less than 24 hours ago. Ganelon, another member of the staff team, also disregards the posts against Rotholfo (we still have no idea who this person is!), giving us three members on the FM staff team with completely different messages?!

I'm sorry but what the hell is happening here? Where is the unified decision coming from? You all completely agree on the same punishment but you have no consensus as to WHY this is happening.

The accusations of having made those players quit are wrong, and they have indeed not been taken into account in the punishment; Ganelon acted without prior discussion with the rest of the staff, and his calls are NOT the official ones. Sorry for the confusion caused by this.
However, it isn't because Jan didn't quit the game because of Banana in the end that Banana's actions are alright. It's just that he's not being punished for having made him quit because that didn't happen. There was no contradiction between what I said and what AIVION posted.

[Unknown1234]

Isn't the point of punishing anyone in FM to make them acknowledge that their behavior is problematic and that it has made the game unenjoyable for other players? As someone who has played a lot of FM in the past with Banana, they have grown a ton in FM games (as we all have, let's be honest) and feel like punishing them here is nothing else but satisfying someone who was personally insulted (Not saying that it's okay, but I would be annoyed too if I was Banana).

I haven't actually seen anyone complain about how Banana's comments made the game unplayable or unenjoyable... From what I understand, you guys said yourselves that Banana was not guilty of making anyone leave the game. So what is the punishment really accomplishing?

FM is a frustrating game. People will get mad, people will get frustrated and use emotion to sway people to follow them. I personally have faked emotion as scum to get people to listen to me, and I've never once been told that my play was problematic. The community is meant to grow, and I feel like Banana has definitely done that over the years.

[Voss]

Just so its clear what happened

Duckk was not punished for off site actions

He was eventually perma banned for on site actions

But womp womp its whatever is most convenient for staff at the time that matters isnt it

I have trouble tying duck's situation here, only because I wasn't around for it and don't know the details. I don't even know that @aamirus has been here for it. Do we need to bring in Brendan or something to tip the scale, or can we drop whatever Duck did?

[BananaCucho]

I think that
1. For the sake of consistency you should be infracted for rage quitting Black Flag (I don't know if you were, I wasn't watching that game)
2. You should be warned only because FMPOV the problem player this game was Frinckles and not you.

Thanks for your input. I did receive a punishment for rage quitting Black Flag

Let’s say you and another player did the same thing. That player had no infraction history whilst you had recently earned a significant punishment for rage quitting. Would you not agree that you should receive a harsher judgement?

Rage quitting and "being generally toxic" isn't even the same thing though. I purposely played this game with my previous punishment in mind, making sure not to commit the same mistake.

[BananaCucho]

I have trouble tying duck's situation here, only because I wasn't around for it and don't know the details. I don't even know that @aamirus has been here for it. Do we need to bring in Brendan or something to tip the scale, or can we drop whatever Duck did?

The only reason I bring it up is because I have been involved in 3 situations with off-site insults/attacks

Twice as the attacker, once as the attacked

No matter the situation, I am always on the losing end of the decision by staff

That was 4 years ago so I wont talk about it further

[Voss]

The only reason I bring it up is because I have been involved in 3 situations with off-site insults/attacks

Twice as the attacker, once as the attacked

No matter the situation, I am always on the losing end of the decision by staff

That was 4 years ago so I wont talk about it further

in the current administration, death threats are perma banned. rules or no rules. idk what kind of cowboy land was in the past that that wasn't dealt with extremely severely. I've perma banned people for less.

[Stealthbomber16]

The accusations of having made those players quit are wrong, and they have indeed not been taken into account in the punishment; Ganelon acted without prior discussion with the rest of the staff, and his calls are NOT the official ones. Sorry for the confusion caused by this.
However, it isn't because Jan didn't quit the game because of Banana in the end that Banana's actions are alright. It's just that he's not being punished for having made him quit because that didn't happen. There was no contradiction between what I said and what AIVION posted.

So the implication here is that if the players had specifically said Banana was why they quit, Banana would have been punished more?

Ganelon's opinion that Rotholfo was egging on Banana no longer matters? Can you shed some more light as to how that decision was reached? I know my opinion here isn't the one that matters but to me it definitely looks like that was a two way street.

And yes, there is definitely contradiction within your posts.

Note that BananaCucho is completely innocent of having made Lois Francklyn quit

Note that, in my personal view - as well as in the staffs opinion - deathworlds cannot be held accountable for Lois leaving the game. We feel that Lois overreacted.

BOTH of these statements say that Lois was in the wrong here. Yet you still submit proof against Banana about him calling Lois a twat after he leaves?

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872748
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872760
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872774
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872915
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post873085
That's a lot of "twat-Nick".

I mean, fuck it, that guy was totally being a twat.

[Stealthbomber16]

There are no offended parties here that the FM administration believes were either justified in leaving the game (according to the official statment from AIVION) or are pushing for Banana's punishment here. I still don't understand what warrants this punishment.

Edit: Or is it just because of Banana's "appeal" thread

[DJarJar]

I have trouble tying duck's situation here, only because I wasn't around for it and don't know the details. I don't even know that @aamirus has been here for it. Do we need to bring in Brendan or something to tip the scale, or can we drop whatever Duck did?

Nah, I didn’t join staff til early 2018. I think banana is referencing 2017 and 2016 stuff

[BananaCucho]

Rotholfo said only once that you "should talk to someone about it", and then only said you had anger management issues... after you had called him an idiot and a moron thirce.

I count at least 3 posts after I decided to ignore Rotholo where he personally attacked me and my "anger issues" TRYING to goad and bait me back into insulting him more. How is that not toxic?

Although the host was mistaken on the quits (and yet had legitimate reasons to believe Jan had quit because of personal attacks), he remained civil. To handle this situation, you should have simply spoken against it and go in FM Reports & Appeals after the game to make sure your point was heard instead of personally attacking the host.

And instead of slandering me for 2 weeks Gan should have kept his mouth shut. Yet I am the one punished for not using the subforum, while he is not, even tho you guys love to preach that staff should be held to a higher standard.

[deathworlds]

Funny how all those twat posts were also post replace out. Unlike many other players (MM included) I did not go toe to toe with Frog like at all before he replaced out

Notice how deathworlds says twat on at least 2 different occassions to at least 2 different players

Where is deathworlds ban? (No offense @deathworlds Im just tryna defend myself here)

All the stuff directed at @Renegade wasting time is really funny tbh. Like if I can't post that in FM. Seriously. You want me to be a robot?

Lots of players posted stuff in caps, or in anger at each other of similar nature. Where are their bans?

Nah you bring up a good point

Lembird was toxic AF.

Is it like, staff tradition to focus on what Banana's done as opposed to other people?

[BananaCucho]

Nah, I didn’t join staff til early 2018. I think banana is referencing 2017 and 2016 stuff

Guys I only brought up that thread to make a point

Its that you guys punish or refuse to punish off site communication based on whatever is convenient for you

[Stealthbomber16]

Guys I only brought up that thread to make a point

Its that you guys punish or refuse to punish off site communication based on whatever is convenient for you

I think this point is completely moot because the staff makeup is almost completely different now.

[deathworlds]

Why don't we use that greylist that was implemented

[BananaCucho]

There are no offended parties here that the FM administration believes were either justified in leaving the game (according to the official statment from AIVION) or are pushing for Banana's punishment here. I still don't understand what warrants this punishment.

Edit: Or is it just because of Banana's "appeal" thread

Oh shit can you see that thread lmao

[BananaCucho]

I think this point is completely moot because the staff makeup is almost completely different now.

Fine.

Fuck me I guess for operating on info that that changes with the wind

[DJarJar]

Fine.

Fuck me I guess for operating on info that that changes with the wind

By your own words it’s been 4 years...

[deathworlds]

By your own words it’s been 4 years...

As of this time, site rules do not say anything about enforcing behavior off site

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BananaCucho]

I think I'm done with this guys. I've said my piece, appealed, yada yada. There really isn't much more to say, MM isn't budging it seems and I don't think that anything is gonna change that.

So whatever.

[rumox]

I'm all for private messages being private but if someone is being a turd burglar to someone that relates to the forums it does blur the line. It inevitably finds its way creeping back to the forums.

That's just a personal opinion, not a staff opinion.

[secondpassing]

Nah you bring up a good point

Lembird was toxic AF.

Is it like, staff tradition to focus on what Banana's done as opposed to other people?

I apologize for calling you a dingus.

[DJarJar]

As of this time, site rules do not say anything about enforcing behavior off site

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, site rules should be separate from general FM rules. If there’s a problem with fm rules then let the fm staff know

[Voss]

Unless there is opposition to this, I think the site rules should be updated to reflect that off-site conversations between members of Sc2 Mafia are also under the site rules to avoid this kind of confusion. It's only logical to do so, and it's already how it works for out-of-game communication anyway. And for what it's worth to you, I'm genuinely sorry that you had to deal with that.

This feels like this is another grey area, and something that wasn't clearly in the rules, death threats aside.

[deathworlds]

Well, site rules should be separate from general FM rules. If there’s a problem with fm rules then let the fm staff know

The enforcement of off site behavior that's mentioned anywhere on the site (as far as I know) is solely out of game communication, which only applies for players in a game.

[Voss]

Personally, (and I know this might look like a flipflop to the fm staff with regards to this position, but hey i'm human and i'm thinking about stuff) if people want to cuss each other out in discord pms, fucking have at it. But if it's on discord sc2mafia public channels, or these forums, staff should step in.

[Mesk514]

I'm willing to bet Rodolfo was PTB

[Unknown1234]

I'm willing to bet Rodolfo was PTB

Imagine that.

[Mesk514]

Imagine that.

Only person's ass MM will crawl up and kiss.

[DJarJar]

Only person's ass MM will crawl up and kiss.

Please stop trying to escalate with insults.

[NoctiZ]

I'm willing to bet Rodolfo was PTB

Mag did say that he'd never allow PTB to sign for one of his games so it's unlikely I guess.. maybe if PTB made a smurf and hid his identity from Mag that way LOL

[Ganelon]

Strictly on the subject of the current infraction system, I actually totally agree with you on it aamirus. I’ve been trying to figure out what things to borrow from the erm, Arcade report system and I think we should change it along those lines. That’s my opinion as a player, not as staff.

[Ganelon]

Mag did say that he'd never allow PTB to sign for one of his games so it's unlikely I guess.. maybe if PTB made a smurf and hid his identity from Mag that way LOL

Ya, PTB I would never allow in my games. Hes the only one graced with that honour

[Ganelon]

Anyway, I will not involve myself in this as I think it’s bad for everyone involved. So folks, if you have any concerns, address them to one of the other staff.

[Ganelon]

Anyways. Some of you are prolly wondering about the little OoO fuck up with the coroner. I remembered the Coroner acting before the disguised in the OoO, and didn’t bother to check. AIVION asked me if she could post Jans alignment reveal and I said yes. The reason I’m mentioning this is because I don’t want AIVION (who was quite busy when I hosted this game) to be blamed for it. It is totally my fault for not checking the OoO. AIVION helped quite a bit in spite of how busy she was.

A bit late to be posting this but I guess better late than never.

[yzb25]

Nah, I didn’t join staff til early 2018. I think banana is referencing 2017 and 2016 stuff

I have only read the post game. I just want to make one very specific point. You claim BC has a "serious issue with toxicity going back years on the site".

As someone who probably played and watched 10s of games with BC before his break, I personally never witnessed anything to suggest that was the case. He is certainly argumentative, but no "serious toxic issues". In fact, he was quite respected by the contemporary community, and the players he had issues with were the players that did struggle with toxicity issues and most the community already had an issue with, as far as I can remember.

Other players who were around at the time are free to correct me, but I doubt they'd have anything different to say.

[DJarJar]

I have only read the post game. I just want to make one very specific point. You claim BC has a "serious issue with toxicity going back years on the site".

As someone who probably played and watched 10s of games with BC before his break, I personally never witnessed anything to suggest that was the case. He is certainly argumentative, but no "serious toxic issues". In fact, he was quite respected by the contemporary community, and the players he had issues with were the players that did struggle with toxicity issues and most the community already had an issue with, as far as I can remember.

Other players who were around at the time are free to correct me, but I doubt they'd have anything different to say.

You can think what you want, i reviewed his infraction history before I posted. And I was simply suggesting that fm staff COULD have referenced some of that history in the punishment post to show that it’s not just the single ragequit, and help justify why an offense here would merit a harsher punishment

[Varcron]

You can think what you want, i reviewed his infraction history before I posted. And I was simply suggesting that fm staff COULD have referenced some of that history in the punishment post to show that it’s not just the single ragequit, and help justify why an offense here would merit a harsher punishment

When was his last infraction committed? More than a year ago and that should not really have any merit of how the player behaves currently as to justify a larger punishment, right?

[DJarJar]

Like 2 games ago?

[Varcron]

When was his last infraction committed? More than a year ago and that should not really have any merit of how the player behaves currently as to justify a larger punishment, right?

I'm not going to press any harder because it really isn't my place except I'm just curious from which year the staff are using punishments from to justify larger ones now.

[Varcron]

Like 2 games ago?

Okay, thanks for the quick response.

[BananaCucho]

Like 2 games ago?

Again, I don't see how a rage quit should matter here. If I rage quit this game, sure. Or if I was warned/punished for toxicity last game, also sure. But I don't have a recent history of being punished for being toxic, so a 2 game ban for that offense here is harsh, especially when the worst they are quoting is "moron", "idiot", and "twat-Nick"

[DJarJar]

I'm not going to press any harder because it really isn't my place except I'm just curious from which year the staff are using punishments from to justify larger ones now.

Dude. I’m not FM staff, I’m not even in their discord server, and I had no part of this decision. You are arguing with the wrong person...

[Varcron]

Dude. I’m not FM staff, I’m not even in their discord server, and I had no part of this decision. You are arguing with the wrong person...

I was just asking when his last infraction was to make sense of the larger hit, no argument intended and as such I'll stop posting now.

[DJarJar]

Again, I don't see how a rage quit should matter here. If I rage quit this game, sure. Or if I was warned/punished for toxicity last game, also sure. But I don't have a recent history of being punished for being toxic, so a 2 game ban for that offense here is harsh, especially when the worst they are quoting is "moron", "idiot", and "twat-Nick"

eh, I think a rage quit is inherently pretty toxic man

[BananaCucho]

Fine. We have different definitions of toxic. Fine. Whatever.

[DJarJar]

Fine. We have different definitions of toxic. Fine. Whatever.

Hey I did it too, and I’ve gotta live w that

[BananaCucho]

Hey I did it too, and I’ve gotta live w that

And I literally apologized for my actions that game, and accepted my punishment as deserved

Unlike this game where it is not.