Can ordinary men turn into killers?

[Ganelon]

I watch a lot of Jordan Peterson videos, and one thing that he finds fascinating and talks about quite often is morality, and how ordinary men turn into killers. He described an encounter with a psychopathic killer he had when he was a student; he said he found it deeply unsettling and that he thought about it for weeks, and concluded that he could actually see himself doing what that guy did.

I also spoke to MM about an interesting statistic I found somewhere online: supposedly only 70% of rapists are paychopthic. I initially had a very visceral reaction to this, not willing to believe ordinary men could commit such acts. But then I thought about it a little, and perhaps ordinary, weak men could commit this ultimate act of savagery, in a fit of rage.

I find this profoundly frightening and also somewhat disgusting to think about.

How do ordinary men turn into killers and rapists? And what does that say about humanity in general lol. How do you avoid becoming one?

[SuperJack]

Are women different?

[Ganelon]

Women are less aggressive and violent so I guess they’re less likely to?

[MartinGG99]

I'm probably one of the most unqualified people to say anything about this but here are some of my thoughts that I can put into words right now:

-I personally believe that there can be an extreme situation for everyone to turn into killers. Rapists, though? I'm not sure about that. To kill is part of a natural instinct we have had from evolution, at least for other species. But I don't see "rape" as a necessity nor natural in the natural world. Ever hear of an accusation of another animal raping another animal? (And this is not mentioning the physical harm that comes from rape)

-I think its quite possible for someone (who if nurtured correctly), would normally have become an "ordinary man", to become something completely different if they don't have enough social development. Then, at that point, one may very well be hindered in areas such as morality because they have nobody to compare oneself to (because they don't socialize enough to exchange ideas). When you can't really compare something, because you aren't aware of differing opinions/thoughts/beliefs, its rather difficult to question the one you have unless you already have the habit of questioning one's own thoughts and ideas. And if you don't question something, you can't really develop a morality. What "they should do" (for their perspective) becomes what they think is best, regardless if what "they should do" would be completely different if they had considered someone else.

-This also reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

Hatred, which could destroy so much, never failed to destroy the man who hated, and this was an immutable law. - Notes Of A Native Son

Although this ^^^ was a bit unrelated since he was a civil rights era writer, so this is in the context of an 1950's essay about racism and hatred.

[Ganelon]

Martin I’d agree with you generally but why are only 70% of rapists psychopathic?
Also, while I am not totally convinced you can view this issue entirely through a naturalistic lens, it’s important to note that ducks and dolphins also rape. The other issue is that we don’t know how animals give consent.
I just think that, murder is different - as you’ve said - but not because of its genetic history (or not only because of it). Murder can have a utilitarian aim; I don’t possibly see how rape could, tho, which is why I find the statistic I talked about unbelievable and maybe a little dubious.

[MartinGG99]

it’s important to note that ducks and dolphins also rape.

I honestly feel that I would've heard this already. Never heard this before. Maybe if there was a story on it, it just wouldn't be sensationalist for the media and so that's why I haven't heard that before.

Edit: Apparently its true. Just looked it up. That's disappointing.

Martin I’d agree with you generally but why are only 70% of rapists psychopathic?

Well, first off, I think we need to identify that rape is defined as a crime. Therefore, anything that counts as that crime regardless of intention is counted within that study, i would presume. I do think that rape can occur if there is a miscommunication, or a misunderstanding, especially if someone is new to sex (this in no way justifies rape though). For example, the whole issue over "no means no" and that a "yes" is needed are meant to reduce the chance of miscommunication or misunderstanding. Otherwise chances are you are at quite some risk of committing rape (im not in any way suggesting you shouldn't check for consent). The flip side is that in some cultures (Feel free to doubt this, i haven't looked into it and its just prior knowledge i heard somewhere) rape is sometimes treated as a punishment for a crime. So its theoretically possible to just rape out of hatred or anger, although i have difficulty in imagining that.

Like i said before, im no qualified authority on this issue, so i may be wrong at certain points here.

[Sylvanas]

Society and law turn killers into "ordinary men". People are opportunistic and self-serving, but they're also gregarious and will compromise for acceptance and to avoid exclusion. Psychopaths have a harder time suppressing their urges and less motivation to do so and they have more tolerance to risk, so their true nature shows. "Not killing and not raping" isn't the default mode for people, we made it that way.

[SuperJack]

Women are less aggressive and violent so I guess they’re less likely to?

Have you met my wife? She would tear your liver out.

[Ganelon]

😂 nice

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Society and law turn killers into "ordinary men". People are opportunistic and self-serving, but they're also gregarious and will compromise for acceptance and to avoid exclusion. Psychopaths have a harder time suppressing their urges and less motivation to do so and they have more tolerance to risk, so their true nature shows. "Not killing and not raping" isn't the default mode for people, we made it that way.

Uhh, okay... STAY AWAY FROM ME OR I CALL POLICE!!!!

You really think that killing humans is the default for humans? Do you have any sources to back that up? It's not impossible, but I find it rather unlikely. For example, how would you explain soldiers suffering from post-traumatic syndromes because they killed people even though they knew it was going to happen because it's part of their job? Also, as a child, I would never have thought of murder as even a possibility that would exist (but perhaps that's just me, in which case I will be scared out of my mind lol).

Have you met my wife? She would tear your liver out.

Lmao
Statistically, though, there are much more male murderers than female ones.

https://healthresearchfunding.org/5-...rs-statistics/

[rumox]

To believe ordinary men can just kill is to probably also subscribe to the idea that empathy is a social construct, and I'd be inclined to assume you are a psychopath.

[DJarJar]

To believe ordinary men can just kill is to probably also subscribe to the idea that empathy is a social construct, and I'd be inclined to assume you are a psychopath.

That's interesting, i'd say that killing and empathy are both part of human nature

[rumox]

Also I think you are reading into Peterson's statement wrong. Anyone can imagine themselves killing someone. It's probably a topic people never discuss seriously which is why it comes across as taboo to hear someone truthfully admit it, but I believe we can all easily picture ourselves killing someone. Now whether we act on it is where the meat of the topic is. To be able to just randomly kill someone shows an incredible lack of empathy, one of the telltale signs of a psychopath which I think would negate the subject being deemed an ordinary man.

[rumox]

That's interesting, i'd say that killing and empathy are both part of human nature

The definition on what killing is on this topic isn't defined. Are we killing in defense of something? Are we killing in service of something? Are we killing for fun? I believe every human is capable of doing it, don't get me wrong there. But we are by large a pretty empathetic species. I think our very own biology telling us to feel empathy is a telltale sign that killing isn't a default mode for us.

[rumox]

If we valued sociopathic traits and embraced them as a collective, the answer to this question would probably be yes because the "ordinary" man would be the man with the traits to be able to just kill. But we don't value those traits, morality, whatever and prune it from our human identity as best as we can.

[DJarJar]

I mean killing for fun. Just talking about animals, I don't think it would be right to say all poachers are psychopaths. I disagree with their lifestyle but i don't think killing for sport makes them inherently evil or psychopathic. Hell, I hunt bugs in my house and take great pleasure in watching them die when I spray them with some raid. So for me there's a natural progression there. If a human does not see another particular human as being any better than an animal, is it psychopathic for him to kill them? Or to rape them? etc.

I'd say the average serial rapist believes that women were created to be fucked, and hence even if they say no they really biologically want it. To me that belief is awful. But I wouldn't say they are necessarily a psychopath. I think that is an incorrect label is all I am trying to say. And I think labelling sane people with terrible beliefs psychopaths only leads to them ignoring everything else you have to say

[rumox]

Yes seeing a human equivalent to an animal and killing them is psychopathic lol

[DJarJar]

Yes seeing a human equivalent to an animal and killing them is psychopathic lol

So the vast majority of the population in Nazi germany were all psychopaths all at once?

[rumox]

The people who initiated that directive yes. Why do you think they used gas chambers instead of firing squads? Efficiency wasn't the only reason

[DJarJar]

The people who initiated that directive yes. Why do you think they used gas chambers instead of firing squads? Efficiency wasn't the only reason

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...ermany-1336922

[rumox]

But now it has become clear how the Nazi regime dehumanised so many of their own troops

I'd push back on what you are saying by again saying, look to the people that initiated the directive. Like I said before we do not value these moralistic traits as a society. Nazi Germany did, and in turn molded people to do the same. Were these people who admitted to it predisposed to harboring these views than those that did not? I think that is a pretty fair assumption to make. I can link evidence of Nazi Germany troops feeling destroyed from killing that butts heads with that link.

We are creatures of our environment for the most part. I believe currently we (ordinary people) are not predisposed to kill and have been for a long time, but we are definitely susceptible to being manipulated whether its direct or indirect.

[Ganelon]

I mean killing for fun. Just talking about animals, I don't think it would be right to say all poachers are psychopaths. I disagree with their lifestyle but i don't think killing for sport makes them inherently evil or psychopathic. Hell, I hunt bugs in my house and take great pleasure in watching them die when I spray them with some raid. So for me there's a natural progression there. If a human does not see another particular human as being any better than an animal, is it psychopathic for him to kill them? Or to rape them? etc.

I'd say the average serial rapist believes that women were created to be fucked, and hence even if they say no they really biologically want it. To me that belief is awful. But I wouldn't say they are necessarily a psychopath. I think that is an incorrect label is all I am trying to say. And I think labelling sane people with terrible beliefs psychopaths only leads to them ignoring everything else you have to say

I don’t agree with your explanation. I don’t think it’s oossible for someone to see women as existing literally only to be fucked. I think people can be pushed to the edge by an extremely toxic environment, especially if they are predisposed to violence and/or impulsive. I find it extremely unlikely that a non-psychopathic person could rape someone (if you ask me, rape and arson are actually worse than murder. Murder can have a utilitarian aim. Rape cannot.

Furthermore, I think all those extreme moral systems promotes by Nazi Germany and the Soviets derive their principles from ‘standard’ morality. I mean, they do make a certain kind of sense if viewed from the angle the nazis did. So perhaps it someone were thoroughly indoctrinated they could persuaded to view eg massacres as moral (‘were just saving our country from a bunch of backstabbers’)

[Ganelon]

The definition on what killing is on this topic isn't defined. Are we killing in defense of something? Are we killing in service of something? Are we killing for fun? I believe every human is capable of doing it, don't get me wrong there. But we are by large a pretty empathetic species. I think our very own biology telling us to feel empathy is a telltale sign that killing isn't a default mode for us.

Yeah my gut tells me you’re right lol. I don’t think I’d be capable of killing someone.

[Ganelon]

There is some evidence for what Sylvanas is saying, now that I think about it. They showed people pictures of others being in pain, and psychopaths actually displayed joy at seeing other people hurt. You’d expect the psychopath not to feel anything at all. Why would they experience joy?

[Frinckles]

Have you met my wife? She would tear your liver out.

Kumiho.

Also Godwin's law has gotten to ridiculous levels in this forum lately.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Kumiho.

Also Godwin's law has gotten to ridiculous levels in this forum lately.

The current geopolitical situation has gotten ridiculously closer to nazism/racism/totalitarianism than it should have, though...

oh noes i just contributed to God wins law