Cult should convert night immune NKs

[GiskardReventlov]

Cult should be allowed to convert night immune neutral evils/killers, even if immunity prevents conversion
Would be as a separate toggable button

[MrMostache]

What do you mean by toggable button? You mean another setting? Why would you want a setting that overrides another setting?

[GiskardReventlov]

Dedicated cult saves generally have one neutral killer. The Cult should not be able to convert Town roles that are night immune, like people protected by Bodyguard or Armorsmith's vest, or Citizen vesting, but they should be able to convert night immune neutral roles. Especially NKs because they otherwise have a hard time winning against both Cult and Town.

[Grakylan]

Dedicated cult saves generally have one neutral killer. The Cult should not be able to convert Town roles that are night immune, like people protected by Bodyguard or Armorsmith's vest, or Citizen vesting, but they should be able to convert night immune neutral roles. Especially NKs because they otherwise have a hard time winning against both Cult and Town.

I see no reason to make NK susceptible to culting.

Think of Cult in a dedicated Cult save as like a Mafia, but instead of killing people, they corrupt them. Instead of reducing the town, they assimilate the town slowly but surely.

In both mafia/triad saves and cult saves, NKs are there to balance things out, introduce a third faction that goes against both the town and the "informed minority" faction whatever that be mafia triad or cult, and to provide another thorn on the informed minority's side.

Cult being able to take NK out of the game via simple culting is terrible. Cult snowballs as is in cult saves, especially those without Mason Leader (I would know b/c I hosted such a save 2 or 3 times before deciding to scrap it). If Mafia/Triad can't shoot down an NK at night (exceptions apply to Poisoner and Electromaniac but that's a different story), Cult shouldn't be able to eliminate an NK at night ez pz either.

I still have my grievances with Cult that were seldom addressed (too much effort expended on it xd). Cult needs more fun and unique roles to flesh them out, not nonsensical band-aids like these.

[GiskardReventlov]

If you roll Serial Killer in a dedicated Cult save, you're fucked. You have to fight both the Town and the Cult, where the Cult is really just a Town clique. If instead you can play the game as a potential Cultist and eliminate dangerous roles such as Mason Leader, Doctor or Bodyguard, you can get converted at the end of the game (win) and also help the Cult at the start.

Also, eliminating an NK, if anything, screws the Cult over, because they're eliminating +1 night kill from the game that can help them. (Esp. due to W.D. normally being in the game which means serial-killed targets can be converted to Cult)

[Frinckles]

If you roll Serial Killer in a dedicated Cult save, you're fucked. You have to fight both the Town and the Cult, where the Cult is really just a Town clique. If instead you can play the game as a potential Cultist and eliminate dangerous roles such as Mason Leader, Doctor or Bodyguard, you can get converted at the end of the game (win) and also help the Cult at the start.

Also, eliminating an NK, if anything, screws the Cult over, because they're eliminating +1 night kill from the game that can help them. (Esp. due to W.D. normally being in the game which means serial-killed targets can be converted to Cult)

I mean isn't that just a fundamental issue with how cult mechanics work? I added the cult leader option so that it's possible for a killing role to dismantle the entire cult by finding the original one.

[Eight]

I mean isn't that just a fundamental issue with how cult mechanics work? I added the cult leader option so that it's possible for a killing role to dismantle the entire cult by finding the original one.

Hey Frinckles, would you take this time to address allowing swinger/heartbreaker to have the option of not notifying their target being loved?

[Grakylan]

I mean isn't that just a fundamental issue with how cult mechanics work? I added the cult leader option so that it's possible for a killing role to dismantle the entire cult by finding the original one.

its why cult needs a complete overhaul wink wink nudge nudge

[Frinckles]

Hey Frinckles, would you take this time to address allowing swinger/heartbreaker to have the option of not notifying their target being loved?

Kind of derailing the thread but okay,

That doesn't sound fair. In fact it sounds like an easy claim for non-town to make at any time. Any evil about to be lynched by a mayor could say "yeah well if you kill me you'll die."

Swinger/HB make it very clear that "you are being held hostage and if I die you are dead too." The lack of ambiguity is important for decision making for each party.

[Frinckles]

its why cult needs a complete overhaul wink wink nudge nudge

Yeah yeah >_>

[GiskardReventlov]

I mean isn't that just a fundamental issue with how cult mechanics work? I added the cult leader option so that it's possible for a killing role to dismantle the entire cult by finding the original one.

Cult Leaders are a bit frustrating to have as Cultist, because you can play a good game as Cultist but die because your Cult Leader is unlucky and gets randomly checked or is downright bad and gets lynched. I think there's no escaping snowballing Cult sizes in setups. Maybe the focus should be on making Cult saves more fun to play rather than balanced.

I think this can be achieved by giving Cult more faction-unique roles, or allowing them to convert some, or all, Town roles without the roles losing their abilities after being converted.

[GiskardReventlov]

Adding an option for Crier not to be convertible to Cult would be nice. That happened to me one time and I got lynched almost immediately when I stopped talking at night...

[Renegade]

Adding an option for Crier not to be convertible to Cult would be nice. That happened to me one time and I got lynched almost immediately when I stopped talking at night...

Isn't that the risk cult runs when recruiting gov?

Like a marshall who can't call a second group lynch, or a mayor that loses his votes...

[GiskardReventlov]

Isn't that the risk cult runs when recruiting gov?

Like a marshall who can't call a second group lynch, or a mayor that loses his votes...

It is, I was just joking. I think some people abuse Cult to grief and ruin town MVP's game when they're about to lose by converting them

[Renegade]

It is, I was just joking. I think some people abuse Cult to grief and ruin town MVP's game when they're about to lose by converting them

Semi related, but some thoughts I typed out yesterday on the discord:

Nobody likes their alignment abruptly changing. Cult is impossible to balance, every night conversion too strong, every other night too weak. I haven't played much with cult leader but I imagine it is frustrating because you fate is decided by how a single person plays.

The impossibility to balance comes from the mechanic of changing alignments. It is a big sign that it shouldn't generally be allowed. Town should not change alignment. Special cases are amnesiac, frankly a role that is too much of a kingmaker. If they side with Mafia that typically means Mafia wins. And auditor. Who if self audits becomes town. I think they should become scumbag not stump to again preserve alignment.

Your alignment is extremely important and one of the most fundamental mechanics to the game. It affects everything you do. To have it switched against your will mid game is not fun and just not a good mechanic.

You get stuff like town begging to be recruited to cult, throwing as town to join the cult and win. You get towns that get recruited into impossible situations and end up losing at no fault to their own.

Cult is so bad and so difficult to balance that most cult saves have an auditor to help masons recruit. So let's stop pretending.

[GiskardReventlov]

Maybe the cult factional conversion could turn into a factional night kill of some sort after the maximum is reached

[GiskardReventlov]

So maybe Cult could be turned into a faction that starts out weak, with one or two members on D1, but can become more powerful during the game by converting important roles to their alignment. You have a Cult Inquisitor, converted from an Investigator/Detective/Sheriff, that looks for roles that could be useful to add to the Cult, and once when they have 4-5 members they lose the ability to convert (they could also not gain any factional night kill or something and just rely on voting power/members' role powers to win).

So the question is what kind of roles would be useful for Cult to have. I can think of the Cult Inquisitor but not any other role, maybe they can have more tactical roles such as Drug Dealer (gives fake feedback to target), a revamped Electromaniac (charges 2 people every night, if one visits the otherr they die; prevents 2 ppl from visiting each other), Mortician (targets a player and permanently changes their last will; even if they change their last will, ur version will be the one that appears when they die), etc

[GiskardReventlov]

Cult Alchemist

Description: Target a player at night and give them fake feedback of your choice. Can be done three times.
Option: Has 2 charges - Default: No
Option: Has 3 charges - Default: Yes

Possible Crimes: Conspiracy and Soliciting

(Note: I would add Witchcraft but I don't like the fact that Investigator can detect Witch now)

Bodyguards become Alchemists on conversion.


Cult Abbess
Description: Target two players. If one visits the other, you will role block the one visiting.
Option - Detect block-immune target - Default: Yes
Option - Targets are notified of role block - Default: Yes

Possible Crimes: Disturbing the Peace (on roleblock), Conspiracy and Soliciting

Escorts become Abbesses on conversion.

Cult Illusionist

Description: Change a player's last will, permanently.

Option: Has 1 charge - Default: Yes
Option: Has 2 charges - Default: No
Option: Has 3 charges - Default: No

Possible Crimes: Conspiracy and Soliciting

Coroners become Illusionists when converted to the Cult.

[Frinckles]

I like the flavor.

[Frinckles]

Cult and Masons definitely needs some changes.