Setup Discussion for Starter Game.

[Kovath]

You argue I do not account for any player to be a detriment to town. I'd argue if that's the case all things being equal, that the setup and to consider ALL the roles in the setup is what you may not be accounting for in your argument. Tailor by itself in the hands of scum is OP, no argument from me there. But to say it can't work in any setup is a bit much. You might as well throw away any negative utility Town role to not be valid. To take this to an extreme, why have PR at all?

This is not a full-on response to Banana's point. You originally stated that a badly played Tailor can hurt scum. This is true, but is the case for any badly played role. The point made earlier in the thread was that a correctly, skillfully-utilized Tailor is far more powerful than the vast majority of roles from the same condition, i.e. ability to affect a game's result by one slot. It is true that Tailors can work in some setups, for instance ones with Coroners, just like many flavor setups have an OP role that is meant to be balanced by other factors; yet most setups with Tailors end up not having Coroners.

This is not an argument at all to take away PRs, it is a point that in many situations, Tailor simply far outclasses other roles in ability to damage the town while the setups often are not tailored (hah) to accomodate that edge.

[BananaCucho]

You argue I do not account for any player to be a detriment to town. I'd argue if that's the case all things being equal, that the setup and to consider ALL the roles in the setup is what you may not be accounting for in your argument. Tailor by itself in the hands of scum is OP, no argument from me there. But to say it can't work in any setup is a bit much. You might as well throw away any negative utility Town role to not be valid. To take this to an extreme, why have PR at all?

Now you're just exaggerating.

[Quick]

This is not a full-on response to Banana's point. You originally stated that a badly played Tailor can hurt scum. This is true, but is the case for any badly played role. The point made earlier in the thread was that a correctly, skillfully-utilized Tailor is far more powerful than the vast majority of roles from the same condition, i.e. ability to affect a game's result by one slot. It is true that Tailors can work in some setups, for instance ones with Coroners, just like many flavor setups have an OP role that is meant to be balanced by other factors; yet most setups with Tailors end up not having Coroners.

This is not an argument at all to take away PRs, it is a point that in many situations, Tailor simply far outclasses other roles in ability to damage the town while the setups often are not tailored (hah) to accomodate that edge.

Not having any PRs follows the same logic though. I mean where would it stop exactly? You could argue Sheriff is OP because it gives alignment checks on people, which is kinda the opposite of Tailor.

My point is not that Tailors are a good role, my point is that they CAN be a good role. If that's a problem, then obviously it is a bigger problem than just one OP role and people might have to consider what is considered a balanced setup and Admins might have to step in or have stricter guidelines on what is considered balanced.

[Kovath]

Not having any PRs follows the same logic though. I mean where would it stop exactly? You could argue Sheriff is OP because it gives alignment checks on people, which is kinda the opposite of Tailor.

My point is not that Tailors are a good role, my point is that they CAN be a good role. If that's a problem, then obviously it is a bigger problem than just one OP role and people might have to consider what is considered a balanced setup and Admins might have to step in or have stricter guidelines on what is considered balanced.

The point has already been made that flips are one of the most important pieces of information and in most games, the only piece of information players can 100% trust. And it is from there that one can begin to read interactions and so on, so it is an absolutely critical component of the game. A tailored flip can completely change the calculus and reads of a town, including how one would reach Sheriff checks for example (ex. I got a check different than what this guy flipped, is there a Framer? Now this is a constant worry).

Sheriff alignment checks are on a completely different level from that. Again, Tailors are just uniquely powerful because they target graveyard flips (and sometimes investigative actions as well).

[BananaCucho]

Not having any PRs follows the same logic though. I mean where would it stop exactly? You could argue Sheriff is OP because it gives alignment checks on people, which is kinda the opposite of Tailor.

My point is not that Tailors are a good role, my point is that they CAN be a good role. If that's a problem, then obviously it is a bigger problem than just one OP role and people might have to consider what is considered a balanced setup and Admins might have to step in or have stricter guidelines on what is considered balanced.

Tailored flips are public. Sheriff checks are private. Not the same. A sheriff doesn't check someone and have a message go out saying "the checked player is Mafia!", that would be op - instead town has to decide whether or not to trust the sheriff's claim, and then the flip validates or negates the claim. Tailor fucks that up to make it easier for scum to claim whatever the hell they want, sheriff even, and make their "checked" player flip Mafia. Its really op op

Not to mention most setups give sheriff a negative utility, like a mafia player who is check immune or setups with a sheriff but no doctor. Not really the same.

[Quick]

The point has already been made that flips are one of the most important pieces of information and in most games, the only piece of information players can 100% trust. And it is from there that one can begin to read interactions and so on, so it is an absolutely critical component of the game. A tailored flip can completely change the calculus and reads of a town, including how one would reach Sheriff checks for example (ex. I got a check different than what this guy flipped, is there a Framer? Now this is a constant worry).

Sheriff alignment checks are on a completely different level from that. Again, Tailors are just uniquely powerful because they target graveyard flips (and sometimes investigative actions as well).

I see your point, I do. But I am not so adamant that the game MUST play a certain way. This game is subjective, so I feel if a role is on the table, than it is a known component to the game and the game changes because of it. Is the Queen in chess OP? Why should a Queen be a valid piece? You would argue that both players have a queen, granted. But the same concept can and should be applied to Mafia. This whole game is a game based on limited information, so to say a certain role is strictly forbidden is shitty. Like you and banana argue that a shitty player can destroy either team. Same concept can apply to hosts as well. Shitty Hosts make shitty games and to say this is different than a player being bad is not seeing the whole picture.

[DarknessB]

As an interruption to this debate, I still think it's hilarious that we're consider Tailor, a role that many veterans strongly dislike, as evident by this thread, for a Beginner's Game. I mean, I know we're a trolly site, but this seems like a lot even for our standards. The WIFOM alone would fuck with everyone's heads -- I just see no reason to worry beginners about unreliable graveyard flips in addition to picking up everything else about Forum Mafia.

[Quick]

Tailored flips are public. Sheriff checks are private. Not the same. A sheriff doesn't check someone and have a message go out saying "the checked player is Mafia!", that would be op - instead town has to decide whether or not to trust the sheriff's claim, and then the flip validates or negates the claim. Tailor fucks that up to make it easier for scum to claim whatever the hell they want, sheriff even, and make their "checked" player flip Mafia. Its really op op

Not to mention most setups give sheriff a negative utility, like a mafia player who is check immune or setups with a sheriff but no doctor. Not really the same.

OK I think I misunderstand what a sheriff does because I am pretty certain that a sheriff does get a message saying "this player is guilty" or "this player is innocent"? So you argue that sheriff is counterbalanced, same can and should be said for Tailor, that is my whole point. Not that Tailor is even a good role for many setups. It has its utility, and if properly implemented I don't see that problem with it.

[Quick]

As an interruption to this debate, I still think it's hilarious that we're consider Tailor, a role that many veterans strongly dislike, as evident by this thread, for a Beginner's Game. I mean, I know we're a trolly site, but this seems like a lot even for our standards. The WIFOM alone would fuck with everyone's heads -- I just see no reason to worry beginners about unreliable graveyard flips in addition to picking up everything else about Forum Mafia.

I can't speak for everyone, I sure as hell am NOT arguing that Tailor should be in a beginners game. It is a very advanced role and that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't even suggest most Host to even add the role because of its complexity, but it can be done.

[BananaCucho]

I see your point, I do. But I am not so adamant that the game MUST play a certain way. This game is subjective, so I feel if a role is on the table, than it is a known component to the game and the game changes because of it. Is the Queen in chess OP? Why should a Queen be a valid piece? You would argue that both players have a queen, granted. But the same concept can and should be applied to Mafia. This whole game is a game based on limited information, so to say a certain role is strictly forbidden is shitty. Like you and banana argue that a shitty player can destroy either team. Same concept can apply to hosts as well. Shitty Hosts make shitty games and to say this is different than a player being bad is not seeing the whole picture.

Your analogies don't apply at all. Mafia is a game about an informed minority going against an uninformed majority - there has to be some sort of way for the uninformed to become informed in order for them to win. And that's what flips provide, and when town lynches a scum the result shouldn't be a disadvantage to the town.

To use your chess analogy properly, if I take your queen I should then have higher chances of winning from then on out for taking a piece you were trying to protect since its powerful.

[BananaCucho]

OK I think I misunderstand what a sheriff does because I am pretty certain that a sheriff does get a message saying "this player is guilty" or "this player is innocent"? So you argue that sheriff is counterbalanced, same can and should be said for Tailor, that is my whole point. Not that Tailor is even a good role for many setups. It has its utility, and if properly implemented I don't see that problem with it.

I meant a message go out to all players. There isn't a host announcement that the player is inno/guilty, but rather a private message to the sheriff.

Tailor flips are host announced as the suited role and alignment

[Quick]

Your analogies don't apply at all. Mafia is a game about an informed minority going against an uninformed majority - there has to be some sort of way for the uninformed to become informed in order for them to win. And that's what flips provide, and when town lynches a scum the result shouldn't be a disadvantage to the town.

To use your chess analogy properly, if I take your queen I should then have higher chances of winning from then on out for taking a piece you were trying to protect since its powerful.

OK, you are repeating yourself and not at all taking my points into consideration, I'm done.

[Quick]

I meant a message go out to all players. There isn't a host announcement that the player is inno/guilty, but rather a private message to the sheriff.

Tailor flips are host announced as the suited role and alignment

This is my last comment about this topic in this thread, but you might as well rule out No-reveal and partial reveal as well.

/done

[BananaCucho]

OK, you are repeating yourself and not at all taking my points into consideration, I'm done.

I am refuting your points in a respectful way. If your argument can't hold up that's not because I'm not taking your points into consideration. Nice try though.

[DarknessB]

I can't speak for everyone, I sure as hell am NOT arguing that Tailor should be in a beginners game. It is a very advanced role and that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't even suggest most Host to even add the role because of its complexity, but it can be done.

Good, my opinion of you just went up -- at least we can agree on this much, Quick.

[Quick]

Good, my opinion of you just went up -- at least we can agree on this much, Quick.

Thanks

[SuperJack]

Oh my. Seems that I have alot to read 0-o...

[SuperJack]

Before I go anywhere I'll place my vote on

-vote BananaCucho

I noticed she was making intense reviews of power roles.

[SuperJack]

Ok. NO Tailor.

[SuperJack]

No Mayor

[SuperJack]

@DarknessB
How many players came from a history of Ban-Lists?



About recruitment
-I am more likely to show interest with people already on the forums

-I will be asking people who have been on the forums, and shown they are able to debate and discuss
for example @Exeter350 who may be interested.
Each and every player does deserve a chance.

-I can not make sure that every player that I find will have high levels of quality. If I stuck to that rule, a beginner game would never be possible.



I know that people on this site want more quality players, but they do no appear from no-where. We have never had a flow of only high-quality players
And let me make this clear. This site is NOT an Elitist site so we will have players whom other people will consider not up to their high standards.
Which is one of the reasons for their to be a beginner game. To bring in a selection of people, some may be very good, some may be not. But at the end of the day it's to see if they enjoy FM games, and want to play more. Their play can be improved.


So let me make clear of the Starter games goal:
The Goal of Starter game is to bring in Player from the Mod to Forum Mafia.

The goal is not to
Improve their Forum mafia Player.
Only Find High Quality Players.

[Cryptonic]

I agree with that entire post

[Quick]

I agree with that entire post

SuperJack's?

[Cryptonic]

Yea, with SuperJack's.

[BananaCucho]

I agree with agreeing with that post

[Cryptonic]

I agree with agreeing with that post

good work here guys, we got the job done

[SuperJack]

So I am going go to go with something very similar to what Cryptonic Suggested.
A half way between the Mod and a Vanilla game, excluding certain chaotic roles.
The exact role list will be discussed by anyone who is not a mentor yet observing the game.

The next step is organising Mentors, and how they should enact their role.

[SuperJack]

Sheeeeit.

This just became valid again.

[theoneceko]

Sheeeeit.

This just became valid again.

owo

i rly like the 3 joat, 9 citizen, 3 mafia setup being used in MU champs and 3rd line butterfly. i think theyre both good for starters ovo.

also @Frinckles ur my fav host so far.i loved the atmowosphere of that setuwup.

[deathworlds]

Any beginner game should fit the following criteria
1.) No "hidden/random roles"
Giving the players a clear, fully described setup with no hidden information will give players a good stepping stone to more complex setups.
2.) Very small power to vanilla role ratio
More night actions can lead to unnecessary confusion, also we need to establish that forum mafia isn't nearly as dependent on night actions as the mod is, this is not an (night) action game, this is a deception game.
3.) Simple power roles
Once again, keeping it simple will give players a sense of the fundamentals behind forum mafia. Serial killers, escorts, and sheriffs are O.K. Reality benders, disguisers, and Serial-Arson-Fathers are not.
4.) No "special mechanics"
Should be self-explanatory, don't want to overwhelm players, establish fundamentals, etc, etc.
5.) uninformed majority vs informed minority
This is the core behind mafia ever since it's conception, as fun as scumfest saves might be, they certainly don't make up the majority of games that are played.

[secondpassing]

I was re-reading the old beginnner signup threads and I was wondering if making a "noob-friendly" setup actually gets new players into the door. Like I'm good with having mentors, but couldn't the setup be crazy with odd mechanics? It may end up feeling more familiar to new players, especially those that come from the mod. Having a crazy setup automatically promotes setup discussion and is very impressive. My first or second game was a hidden RLVG setup where I shot myself in the foot thinking I was the wrong alignment. My sense of awe towards the host continues to this day toward those who make craziness happen and has contributed to keeping me around FM. Additionally, a good portion of new players find discussion hard enough as it is so a push to talk about the mechanics of the game is a push sorely needed.

[theoneceko]

owo i agree.

iwonder if a "begginer" setup is rlyneeded. i didn't mind either of the first two setups i playeduvu

[secondpassing]

owo i agree.

iwonder if a "begginer" setup is rlyneeded. i didn't mind either of the first two setups i playeduvu

Yeah. Insanity was a great setup. We could always run it again or run something similar then just add [beginners welcome] at the end of it or something.

[theoneceko]

however,a game just for nuwubies will makeus feel spesshul uvu. that'dprob be main reaoson i join one lol. it's like a wlelcoming party. uwu!!!

[theoneceko]

Yeah. Insanity was a great setup. We could always run it again or run something similar then just add [beginners welcome] at the end of it or something.

wedon't even need [beggginers welcum]that just soundscringe imo OWO

[theoneceko]

begginers shoulddecide for themselveswhether they want to play a setu.p. uwu

[deathworlds]

A couple of things we should consider when deciding what to do for a beginners game then, if we decide to have one at all.

A.) What our objective specifically is, or rather, what we hope to accomplish by hosting beginner games.
B.) What appeals to new players?

I believe our goal is to recruit players, and to have those players improve over time. If this isn't the case, we should clarify with each other.

My first game of forum mafia was S-FM 96: Gang Wars, it was an appealing setup to me, just because I was obsessed with scumfest saves at the time (and that was the only signups up when I wanted to join in) but it didn't really teach me much about mafia, or any of the principles behind it, it was pretty much just a night action game.
We were all new at some point, so why don't we share what appealed to us as new players? We can use that information to better craft a setup, instead of talking about the theory behind it.

[theoneceko]

myfisrt gmae was 3rd line buterfly. i loved scumhutning and all thePRs were cool uwu

uwuthat setup willalways ahvehe spessshul palce in my heart owo

[theoneceko]

myfisrt gmae was 3rd line buterfly. i loved scumhutning and all thePRs were cool uwu

uwuthat setup willalways ahvehe spessshul palce in my heart owo

@beeendnckles HLKDX!!!!!!!!

uwu

[secondpassing]

A couple of things we should consider when deciding what to do for a beginners game then, if we decide to have one at all.

A.) What our objective specifically is, or rather, what we hope to accomplish by hosting beginner games.
B.) What appeals to new players?

I believe our goal is to recruit players, and to have those players improve over time. If this isn't the case, we should clarify with each other.

My first game of forum mafia was S-FM 96: Gang Wars, it was an appealing setup to me, just because I was obsessed with scumfest saves at the time (and that was the only signups up when I wanted to join in) but it didn't really teach me much about mafia, or any of the principles behind it, it was pretty much just a night action game.
We were all new at some point, so why don't we share what appealed to us as new players? We can use that information to better craft a setup, instead of talking about the theory behind it.

A)I think our objective should be to entice all the people that go through the forums to give FM a shot
B)Crazy setups and a welcoming atmosphere

S-FM 170: Happy Fluffy Times was the first setup I ever played and as said, it was hidden. I think I read a forum game before that to get a feel for all the deception that could be done with words, and just jumped right in. I ended up losing my first few games, often because I was unable to provide town-tells and thus lynched early on. I got better by playing more, and listening and testing out the suggestions made by stronger players who would help me post-game. The human aspect of FM really appealed to me and finding ways to communicate and anti-communicate. It also helped that I love reading.

I don't really think the purpose of a beginner game is to get people good at FM, just to get people to play. People should get better, but first players need to enjoy playing, then they'll get to know us. And if they know us, they'll stick around.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Yeah. Insanity was a great setup. We could always run it again or run something similar then just add [beginners welcome] at the end of it or something.

It was great. However, I'm not so sure it's representative of the normal games on the site... I tend to agree with Deathworlds on the criterias for newbie-friendly games.
Insert shameless advertisement for La Cosa Nostra, my setup, here

Throwing a suggestion out there, tell me if you like it.
Some hosts could explicitely state they accept mentors in their games. Mentors could help a new player get into the game. They obviously wouldn't be playing, and would know all the info their pupil knows, including his role. They could talk to the pupil privately about anything, but never post anything publicly. They would have to be approved privately by both the host and the pupil before officially being mentors in the game; they would need to have a good knowledge of the game, of the FM rules and of the setup. The info about mentor-pupil pairings approved by the Host would be publicly available.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

A couple of things we should consider when deciding what to do for a beginners game then, if we decide to have one at all.

A.) What our objective specifically is, or rather, what we hope to accomplish by hosting beginner games.
B.) What appeals to new players?

I believe our goal is to recruit players, and to have those players improve over time. If this isn't the case, we should clarify with each other.

My first game of forum mafia was S-FM 96: Gang Wars, it was an appealing setup to me, just because I was obsessed with scumfest saves at the time (and that was the only signups up when I wanted to join in) but it didn't really teach me much about mafia, or any of the principles behind it, it was pretty much just a night action game.
We were all new at some point, so why don't we share what appealed to us as new players? We can use that information to better craft a setup, instead of talking about the theory behind it.

A)
We want new players to enjoy their experience here. That's how they will stay with us in a good way, and how they will become a part of the community. Newbie games would help them knowing what they have to do and what they can do, while creating a fun and welcoming environment.

B)
My first game was S-FM Pulp Fiction, by Suntax. I stayed because of four things:
- Most important thing was that FM was the exact thing I was looking for, because people actually used logic, unlike...
- @Stealthbomber16 was nice and helped me. Having someone who nicely took the time to explain me things a little bit without wearing "newbie gloves" was really good.
- @Suntax 's hosting skills (a lot of good roleplay, a lot of colors (yes, it's that dumb)).
- A beautiful setup. Although it might not have been the most stable and balanced in history, it was very refreshing for someone who came from the mod.


Basically, having newbie games with good setups (which is always good anyway) and creating a welcoming atmosphere is a good start. Having mentors would be the cherry on the top.

[Kovath]

My first game (if I remember correctly) was FM XI, Assassin's Creed themed.

It was a fun time. I also had no clue what I was doing. There's a balance.

[Ganelon]

My first game was Which Witch is Which

[SuperJack]

I'm just gonna ask them when enough people are signed up

[theoneceko]

I'm just gonna ask them when enough people are signed up

+1; i strowonglybelieve the newbies should decdiee for themeslseveles




uwu

[naz]

The first game I played was just a one day game where if a mafia was lynched, town wins. Town lynch, mafia win. Its easy because no mechanics to discuss and low commitment (i think 72 hours was what the game was given?) so its a nice intro and good way to get foot in the door uwu

Edit: instant mafia is the setup
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...stant-Mafia-IV

[theoneceko]

The first game I played was just a one day game where if a mafia was lynched, town wins. Town lynch, mafia win. Its easy because no mechanics to discuss and low commitment (i think 72 hours was what the game was given?) so its a nice intro and good way to get foot in the door uwu

Edit: instant mafia is the setup
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...stant-Mafia-IV

uwu

ACK +1 for the "low commitment"

partof the fun for me in FM is the intensity, but a shorter game could be considered

[Kovath]

The first game I played was just a one day game where if a mafia was lynched, town wins. Town lynch, mafia win. Its easy because no mechanics to discuss and low commitment (i think 72 hours was what the game was given?) so its a nice intro and good way to get foot in the door uwu

Edit: instant mafia is the setup
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...stant-Mafia-IV

Aye, Instant Mafia is a fun game even for non-newbies.

There's a reason it's been run a lot in the past.

[Ganelon]

My first game was Which Witch is Which

This is a decent game for players used to the mod