Just a little tweak to Arsonist

[Zack]

Quite simple really, let the Arsonist know who is doused at night by painting their buttons orange or something.

Several reasons for this:
1. Witch can make arson douse someone he didn't intend, thus his track of who he doused is incorrect and may result in his loss.
2. Bus Drivers, same effect as Witch.
3. Other Arsonists! lol

Yes Arsonist should be able to see who is doused at night, even if people were doused by another Arsonist. He is an expert on gasoline after all, so he knows where the gas is. Meaning he should know if he was doused himself (by witch/bus driver making him do that, or another arsonist).

How hard to do would this be...?

[Dark.Revenant]

Not hard to program, but would make the Arsonist too OP. The only thing really holding him back is the uncertainty of dousing; he has self-sensing powers, but that's it. If he were able to sense all doused targets, he'd be practically immune to witches and be absolutely unstoppable in pairs.

[Zack]

Perhaps... Can you make this an option in the menu though?

Reason being, unless the Arsonist is immune at night, he'l most likely get killed before he gets to burn. Only times I won as Arso was when he was immune at night, otherwise I get killed randomly by mafia or sk.

There was one game without immunity where I somehow got lucky enough to reach the end, and I thought i'd be able to win with the witch. But the witch made me miss a douse or douse someone twice, result was one target who was supposed to burn didn't burn, and he was the Mayor... Lost the game because of that.

So, if this option is there, it can be used instead of immunity at night to buff the Arso. Hosts shouldn't turn both options on if they know whats good for them, lol.

[Dark.Revenant]

The difficulty in creating an option is I have to delete one of the existing options to make room for new ones, since all four of his slots are used up. Or expand the available options to 5, which DOES pose a significant and potentially time-consuming coding/art problem.

[Clawtrocity]

"unstoppable in pairs"

What if both arsons chose the same target every night!? THEY WOULD NEVER KNOW!

It's fine the way it is with having to keep track of yourself. And yeah Witches would be pointless to arsons then. They still can make him target himself, but other than that...

Cool trick though: Don't douse anyone night 1. If you can burn night 2 there's a second arson.
Or maybe the burn button auto pops up on the second night regardless.
Note: Both arsons may do this and you will probably douse and kill each other and laugh in the post game.

[Zack]

In my opinion you can remove the "50% doused show gas to investi" option. It makes the investigator unreliable, because he might even see a mafia as arsonist/bus driver. You may have thought that option is nice to have, but this buff to Arson is better and will actually be used.

I assure you that 100% in games, people leave the 50% invest thing off. Its an undesired game option.

Still, its up to you what you prefer personally, since its your creation...

[Inca_Killa]

In my opinion you can remove the "50% doused show gas to investi" option. It makes the investigator unreliable, because he might even see a mafia as arsonist/bus driver. You may have thought that option is nice to have, but this buff to Arson is better and will actually be used.

I assure you that 100% in games, people leave the 50% invest thing off. Its an undesired game option.

Still, its up to you what you prefer personally, since its your creation...

I Disagree entirely with this post.

[Lumber The Jack]

Arsonsit pairs could be a new challenge for town!. Increasing the neutrals victory chance!

[TheJackofSpades]

In my opinion you can remove the "50% doused show gas to investi" option. It makes the investigator unreliable, because he might even see a mafia as arsonist/bus driver. You may have thought that option is nice to have, but this buff to Arson is better and will actually be used.

I assure you that 100% in games, people leave the 50% invest thing off. Its an undesired game option.

Still, its up to you what you prefer personally, since its your creation...

I Disagree entirely with this post.

I'm inclined to agree with this man's disagreement. The option to have douses show up as bd/arso 50% of the time is probably the best balance to the arsonist thusfar. The reason being is that the arsonist's main problem is that he shares a role with a role that is almost impossible to emulate based on your own game knowledge. I've never seen someone successfully convince anyone they were a BD over the real one.

[wightsnow]

In my opinion you can remove the "50% doused show gas to investi" option. It makes the investigator unreliable, because he might even see a mafia as arsonist/bus driver. You may have thought that option is nice to have, but this buff to Arson is better and will actually be used.

I assure you that 100% in games, people leave the 50% invest thing off. Its an undesired game option.

Still, its up to you what you prefer personally, since its your creation...

I Disagree entirely with this post.

I'm inclined to agree with this man's disagreement. The option to have douses show up as bd/arso 50% of the time is probably the best balance to the arsonist thusfar. The reason being is that the arsonist's main problem is that he shares a role with a role that is almost impossible to emulate based on your own game knowledge. I've never seen someone successfully convince anyone they were a BD over the real one.

You will be asked who you switched and they rarely believe nobody. And there's also the times there is no busdriver, then arsonist just screwed. SK doesn't have this problem because there is almost ALWAYS a doc or at least random town.

[Lumber The Jack]

I agree with wightsnow arsonist are easy to find since they can claim only bus driver(what they cant prove). I find that the 50% doused people appear to have gaz balanced to me!.

Totally Agree with Zack Idea!

[Zack]

If only it were that simple. This 50% thing is less a buff to the arsonist and more of a low blow nerf to the investigator. Why? Because picture this: There's bus drivers in game, adv town, etc. Arsonist douses a member of the mafia, investigator checks that person the next night, investi sees result of arson/bd/doused. Investi tells town of his result, and has now infact cleared a mafia member of being mafia with false information due to this dumb 50% chance.

Thats my biggest issue with this thing, its less help to the arsonist, and more a nerf bat for the investigator who already has a hard time believing his results due to witches and bus drivers, and just generally the descriptions that can mean more than one role.

[Nick]

Arsonist being weaker than SK or witch during early/mid game has it's advantages. There is less urgency for town to weed you out, even if they suspect you. Even if mafia suspect you were one, they will leave you to town for lynching and try to find higher priority targets.

1) Knowing who you have targeted can be compensated by taking our own notes or referring to the log.
2) Not knowing you have been witched or know that you have been witched but unsure of the target are witch abilities. Changing that = witch nerfed.
3) The same for bus drivers.
4) Knowing the presence of additional arsonist will lead to semi-coop. Thus 2 arsonist = OP.

[Zack]

1. No problem here, except when a witch or bus driver mess things up.

2. Not a witch nerf, since a witch would never know she controlled the arsonist anyway, no immidiate kill = witch moves on to control someone else. Infact I was counting on winning with the witch in that one game, but she messed up my dousing and I didn't know, thus we both lost.

3. That does technically make the bus driver less effective in defending from arsonists, but when you think about it the bus driver usually aims to get mafia/sk to kill themselves. He doesn't take arsonist into account when driving people to begin with. Also, the Arsonist deserves this buff, and it makes ignoring the arsonist all the more dangerous - which it should be. Also, I suggest this to be an option, you can turn it off.

4. More than one Arsonist in a game is already insane, any decent host should avoid using a setup that makes such a thing possible. Unless its a crazy setup, or the Arsonist buffs are switched off (e.g. disable the ignore heals option). Again, since i'm suggesting this be made an option, you can have it off, so it will be up to the hosts to choose if this is active or not.



This buff for Arsonist is a viable option, and I think its more sane than the 50% investigation chance option. The chance thing affects the investigator more than it affects the Arsonist, it should probably be moved to be an Investigator option, thus both options will be switchable in game = best solution.

[TheJackofSpades]

If only it were that simple. This 50% thing is less a buff to the arsonist and more of a low blow nerf to the investigator. Why? Because picture this: There's bus drivers in game, adv town, etc. Arsonist douses a member of the mafia, investigator checks that person the next night, investi sees result of arson/bd/doused. Investi tells town of his result, and has now infact cleared a mafia member of being mafia with false information due to this dumb 50% chance.

Thats my biggest issue with this thing, its less help to the arsonist, and more a nerf bat for the investigator who already has a hard time believing his results due to witches and bus drivers, and just generally the descriptions that can mean more than one role.

It's really just another consideration to take into account. It's no different than the framer. If you don't double check in cases where guns come up or bd/arso comes up, you're making a mistake. You CANNOT deny that it makes the Arsonist harder to pin down, which was it's intended role.

This is not a nerf to the investigator, this is a balancing tool to help bring the arsonist more in line with the other killing roles in terms of detectability. Yes, it makes the investigator's job harder, but so does every other additional option in the game for every other role.

P.S. Trust me, I wanted douses to be shown forever before DR implemented this new option, and I approve wholeheartedly of it. Anything that adds more depth to the game is a GOOD thing. Arsonists being able to see whose doused only benefits the arsonist.

[Raiden]

I also feel that the Arsonist is a bit underpowered without the proper options, but can easily become largely overpowered when you set all of them on. In order to make things balanced, i think that you should let them be killed at night, let them override heals and invulnerabilities and, depending on sheriff and investigators individual strength coming from other options, select the 50% doused-fail option or unselect sheriff detection for arsonists.

Moreover, i'd like to see these options for the Bus Driver role.

- Can swap self
- Targets will not be aware of being swapped

The second one, in particular, will solve some of the issues mentioned by TheJackofSpades.

[Curu]

I personally don't like the doused thing because it relies COMPLETELY on luck. Maybe the Investigator sees that the person is actually a Doctor, maybe he sees that the person smells like gasoline. Maybe he investigated the Doctor 4 nights in a row and all of them showed gasoline.

Dynamics such as the Framer actually involve player interaction and skill in identifying the most likely targets for investigation and targeting accordingly. The 50% Arsonist thing is just pure dumb luck.

[LeaversGonnaLeave]

I also feel that the Arsonist is a bit underpowered without the proper options, but can easily become largely overpowered when you set all of them on. In order to make things balanced, i think that you should let them be killed at night, let them override heals and invulnerabilities and, depending on sheriff and investigators individual strength coming from other options, select the 50% doused-fail option or unselect sheriff detection for arsonists.

Moreover, i'd like to see these options for the Bus Driver role.

- Can swap self
- Targets will not be aware of being swapped

The second one, in particular, will solve some of the issues mentioned by TheJackofSpades.

First option, not horrible probably. Witch can target herself right? It would make sense but also give the bus driver a lot more power.

Second option is also another Witch like move. BUT(and I know there are probably a million things that don't make sense) how would somebody not know they were dragged onto a bus and dropped off on the other side of town? At least with the Witch you can claim it was magic

[Raiden]

Well not that much more power, it's by far less powerful than the witch (and it should be, since the witch plays alone).

And the second option... well, you stated that yourself. There are worse things happening in the game without an explanation

If you absolutely require a reason, it's because you were drunk. You couldn't take the car, so you took the bus, passed away and then you woke up in a place you never seen before.

[LeaversGonnaLeave]

Ha Well I can go for that Raiden. And after actually thinking about the possibility of Bus Driver not showing up to people it would make things more interesting. But the key thing becomes then how would a bus driver prove himself if he can't show people he drove them? The option would be a buff to Arson and at first I thought about how it would be a nice change of pace(though I never get arson anyways). But then again, it would leave the Bus Driver with no way to get people to believe him.

But on first glance, yeah it's a good idea. Would possibly make a decent option for Bus Driver but who would ever use the option?

[Raiden]

how would a bus driver prove himself if he can't show people he drove them? The option would be a buff to Arson

That's exactly the point, and the reason why i posted it in this thread

[LeaversGonnaLeave]

rofl Sorry I didn't get my point across clearly enough. I got sidetracked. I meant to say It would be a buff for Arson but a huge nerf imo to the Bus Driver since Bus Drivers would be even more likely to be lynched for smelling like gas than they already are. And they get lynched enough as it is.

[Raiden]

Oh, I see. Well that's up to good players. With that kind of reasoning you should lynch all the spies, who have absolutely no way to prove themselves, and in many many cases the citizens (you'd have to shot them), the vigilantes (you'd have to kill a random target), the doctors (the only way to prove themselves is based on other people actions) and pretty much all the other roles now that i think about it. The bus driver is the one and only role which is able to 100% prove himself.

[LeaversGonnaLeave]

Very good point. Many roles can't prove themselves I suppose. But then again, spy can easily prove themselves depending on options selected. Bus driver could be argued against really after "proving" by switching someone at night unless the other bus driver switched those targets and is getting out-talked.

This all depends on options though so yeah I guess giving Bus Driver the option of not showing someone was switched would be a nice option to at least test I suppose. If the option isn't too hard to implement then I wouldn't really see the harm in adding it for a little while to see the mass opinion of it. I might not like it in theory but who knows how it'll actually work in practice right? Might be able to help out the Arsonist without hurting the Bus Driver nearly at all.

Also, the only role that is able to 100% prove itself is Mayor imo

[Raiden]

Well let's say 99% for the BD and 100% for the mayor

Anyway, i think the BD is already an extremely powerful role when played correctly. The problem is that most of the time it is played by inexperienced players who switch people just to make a mess instead of actively thinking in order to help the town. This is the reason why they get lynched so easily nowadays.

The option i suggested is double edged - it may also be a buff for the town. Mafia won't know there is a bus driver around and they will carelessly go for the sheriff, only to end up dead. If he messes up the investigations, he could claim his role and reveal his doings to accuse the right people. Investigators will back him up, knowing that he's a bd.

[Dark.Revenant]

You know, I am replacing the Doused Investigation option with an option that lets the targets know when they are doused. This creates a greater dynamic; either the person can keep it to himself, or reveal himself as being hit by gas to give the town more information and additionally help the Arsonist win. Unlike most options, this will NOT affect the Arsonist's strength value because it can be used both for or against him.

[TheJackofSpades]

Hm. I dunno how I feel about that change DR, I'll have to see how it plays out in game before I can really offer anything other than speculation of course, but I feel like it may be more disadvantageous to the arsonist than helpful in that application.

[Dark.Revenant]

To be specific, it's advantageous when there's a Witch, Bus Driver, or other Arsonist. It's disadvantageous when those roles are not present.

[FalseTruth]

I personally think it will be a good host option to have. If you add bd's and witches, the arsonist almost becomes a luck based role. With this option, people can reveal they are doused OR fake that they are doused, creating an interesting strategic dynamic to the game. Obviously, the 50% thing needs to go.

[Raiden]

You know, I am replacing the Doused Investigation option with an option that lets the targets know when they are doused. This creates a greater dynamic; either the person can keep it to himself, or reveal himself as being hit by gas to give the town more information and additionally help the Arsonist win. Unlike most options, this will NOT affect the Arsonist's strength value because it can be used both for or against him.

I'm completely against this. Not only removing the 50% doused investigation is a HUGE nerf, but this option by itself cripples the arsonist gameplay regardless of the presence of a witch or bus driver.
First, you would know there is an arsonist since night 1, even if there are only random neutral roles.
Second, anyone who has been doused will start a hunt for the arsonist, especially mafia and other killing roles. There will be absolutely no way for the arsonist to win that game.

[Dark.Revenant]

You don't have to have it on.

[Raiden]

I will have to have the 50% dousing investigations off. That alone is enough for me to dislike this change. I would rather remove the night invulnerability option, but obviously this is only my personal opinion.

[Dark.Revenant]

The investigator thing was always experimental. I didn't like how it worked out, so I'm trying something different.

[TheJackofSpades]

You know, I am replacing the Doused Investigation option with an option that lets the targets know when they are doused. This creates a greater dynamic; either the person can keep it to himself, or reveal himself as being hit by gas to give the town more information and additionally help the Arsonist win. Unlike most options, this will NOT affect the Arsonist's strength value because it can be used both for or against him.

I'm completely against this. Not only removing the 50% doused investigation is a HUGE nerf, but this option by itself cripples the arsonist gameplay regardless of the presence of a witch or bus driver.
First, you would know there is an arsonist since night 1, even if there are only random neutral roles.
Second, anyone who has been doused will start a hunt for the arsonist, especially mafia and other killing roles. There will be absolutely no way for the arsonist to win that game.

I was thinking somewhere along these lines as well, but it will also impose this new metagame concept where if you don't claim you're doused as arsonist you're prime suspect number one, and as such you're pretty much forced into playing out in the spotlight the whole game by claiming you've been doused. But the only way to really do that without drawing attention is to not douse a night. Like I said, it seems more disadvantageous than helpful.

It's ultimately up to you though, DR.

[Computer]

how about... implementing the who YOU doused or forced to douce... in real life even if someone controlled you to douse someone you kinda know whom, sometimes you just lose track and douse the same person twice especially on short nights where theres not enough time to check all the logs.

[Dark.Revenant]

It's implied that when a witch controls you, you black out and remember absolutely nothing.

[Zack]

I am strongly against that change as well DR, letting targets know they were doused? What the Arsonist has going for him is letting the town forget about him or not know there is even an arso to begin with. When people see "You were doused by an arsonist" every night it kinda makes them put up "Arsonist Season" signs all over town and go hunting.

Much more important: Part of the Arsonist strategy, mine anyway, is to pretend to be a townie and defend my doused targets in trial. Because to me they are already dead, I want to keep them alive and lynch the ones I didn't douse. If people start knowing they are doused then they might suspect the arsonist of only defending them because he can burn them at anytime...

[Dark.Revenant]

The option is by default, off. I really didn't like the 50% investigator thing, which is why I changed it to something that would add a new dynamic.

[Zack]

Yeah, hopefully hosts won't turn that on, or they might as well not even add an Arso to the game cus he'l be killed pretty fast.

[Jailbar]

I think I read the whole thread, was there no mention of just letting you know who you yourself doused? Not giving the arson any information he wouldn't otherwise have, but prevents him from being the only role that needs to write down what he does each night. I don't quite see any reason for that not to be there.

[Dark.Revenant]

The arsonist can browse the logs for info.

Also, letting him outright know who is doused would be a gigantic buff in games with witches, bus drivers, and other arsonists.

[Zack]

Then how about a message instead? Like, "you successfuly doused [Name] tonight". If [name] turns out diffrent than the one he intended to douse then he knows he needs to douse that person again. Thats not too much is it..?

[Dark.Revenant]

Guh, I'll try it out to see if it makes it imba.

[Jailbar]

I didn't mean letting the Arsonist know who is doused. I just meant letting him know who he picks each night. Like if he picked Player 2, and gets Witch-controlled to douse Player 5, Player 2 turns orange anyway. Just helps to keep track of the choices you've made. Possibly put a note in the Arsonist sidebar that "dousing indicators may not always be accurate with Witches or Bus Drivers in the game, and do not include douses by other Arsonists".

It might be a good tatic for a Sheriff or something to write down who he has inspected, but gameplay is just annoying as Arsonist if you don't write down who you've chosen to douse. Checking through logs also takes forever.

[TheJackofSpades]

Can you honestly not remember 3-4 names? Or colors?

[Jailbar]

I could, but do I want to be saying 3 names in my head over and over again during the daytime for 20 minutes, possibly distracting me from saying strategical things, no.