Prisonsex's list of trolls or people so bad they should be trolls.

[UndertowSong#2]

The forming of this list isn't for comical relief or public shaming, it is to merely inform you of people who fulfill their mafia roles in such a caustic and unfathomably terrible / imcompetent manners that no one else will experience the same sensation as I when paired with these players both allied and unallied.

Firstly, people who are often associated with trolling but are actually, most usually, good competent mafia players:
Northstar
FiveOneFour
Landstander
Ash
Probably myself
Pizzabox

And a number of others.


Coopstar - Coopstar was the first and I am pretty sure he isn't a troll but just a teenager so befouled with the overuse of habitual narcotics that his ability to reason through even the simplest of conundrums, such as double negative statements, end up being both a test of mettle but also, because of the sheer time it takes for him to assess language, endurance. Coopstar managed to heal mafia for an entire game and also double check several confirmed townies in two games as an immaculate sheriff.

Province - Province is a bit of an enigma, he insults with a certain amount of intentionality, yet speaks in broken english. Of course, these characteristics only come to light after his game play comes into question. Specifically, Province rests with certainty on the principles of the disguiser role having the ability to not disguiser, but to block the ability of others. Strangely, his ability to continue to "block" his target is only possible because said target is a confirmed sheriff and is being healed repeatedly. When asked, "wouldn't you like to target someone else" Province, whose name rest atop the local leader board for the game responds with "I have the most points in the game, what the fuck do you know" This went on for three nights as said target released new leads, one of them being province himself. Now, I can understand the immense pool of confidence one must draw from 1832 mafia points, though I am not quite sure what his reasoning was as he spammed my inquisition with copy and pastes insulting my ability to play mafioso.

The end. more to come, surely.

[UndertowSong#2]

Oh ya, I know Goon will ardently disagree:

Claw is a troll. His standards for bannable offenses seem to fluctuate with his mood, his role, or his conversation relative to the offender. Oh ya, he has the ability to kick people from the game. I am not speaking from the standpoint of a victim, I have only witnessed it. twice.

[Clawtrocity]

Where's my name?

How is Ash not a real troll?

Does the amount of points you have directly correlate to your E-Peen?

Since when are 514 and Northstar even associated with Trolling? They are cool.

EDIT:
Lul there I am. I'm pretty sure I have 3 rules for Mafia.
Don't troll. EVEN AS JESTER Being a dickfuck to get lynched is not a valid way to play.
Play to win. Don't be a "good witch"
Don't flame. Calling someone a bunch of racist names throughout the course of the game.

I RARELY kick before the person is dead so I let them play out the course of the game(So it doesn't affect gameplay), but they don't deserve the 10-20 points for breaking one of the rules.

I also warn players for saying something that isn't possible. If someone says "Oh I can't be GF because GF is seen as Invest to the Invest" I'll warn them for that if I'm not alive to tell them that they are wrong. You shouldn't be able to win off of the technicality of new players. I had to warn Goon once for talking an arson into voting a GF up and lynching him. The arson and SK were both immune so SK won by default the next day. He said the arson would win if he did it.

Also, I haven't kicked anyone based on what my role is or mood or coversation relative to the offender. Whatever that means.

[UndertowSong#2]

I think you misunderstood.

514 is definitely cool. He has just been called out for trolling, same with northstar.

My post nearly vindicates them of that.

My facetious reference to provinces points were... facetious.

Ash isn't a troll. Ash plays the game. Articulated misdirection isn't an offense, its a strategy.

[FalseTruth]

I like your list. I was surprised to see 514 and Northstar on there, because they never troll. Most trolls I see in In-House games are just pubs checking out the channel. After they troll, they are pretty much told they are stupid assholes who should be banned for CAPS LOCK/General stupidity.

As for the regulars, Ash and Supa are the only players I would consider trolls. But Ash and Supa are vastly different in HOW they troll.

Ash trolls in jest. He still tries to win the game and plays it competently. Obviously, he never plays to an intelligent degree, because he is so focused on having fun with the game and doing stupid things. Ash is probably a 13 year old who just hit puberty and is finally growing some pubic hair. I don't mind Ash.

Supa, on the other hand, always trolls. Every game is just random lynching for him. He always reveals his role right away and plays the game like a complete moron in spite of the fact that he knows how to play. He is a player that you SHOULD NOT invite to your games.

Claw is not a troll. He is simply quick to jump to conclusions. He has good intentions when he kicks people from games. He is definitely more impulsive than Goon, but he is a solid player and never trolls unless the role requires it.

P.S. Landstander is NOT a troll by any means, but I know that he hates you. He told me once when I was complaining about Supa.

Me: Supa is a fucking troll. Fucking asshole should fall off a cliff and die.
Landstander: Well, I hate prisonsex, but no one cares about that either...

[UndertowSong#2]

LAWL.

Okay Claw. we obviously have differing views. the distinction is you have the ability to kick thus your logic is all the more scrutinized. I dont think lying and misdirecting the possibility of roles is an offense. if people arent able to deduce through that sort of bullshit that is an advantage one should exploit.

GOD. 514 and NORTHSTAR ARE GOOD COOL PLAYERS. I WAS DEFENDING THEM.

Supa can troll. I guess thats true. ive seen him be really great though.

I dont know why landstander hates me. I'm nice to everyone except those mentioned, and SUN the RACIST.

[TheJackofSpades]

I'm not on either list, you automatically fail.

[UndertowSong#2]

Like radiohead said to Miley Cyrus

Maybe you'll learn to not have such a sense of entitlement.

The list is for Ultra trolls (coopstar/province) And those unfairly portrayed as such.

I am not here to report on the mediocre and lukewarm meanderings of those who pride themselves on thinking others think they are worth mentioning as trolls.

[Lysergic]

There's only ONE TIME that I saw Claw kick someone who I didn't think deserved it, and it was a VERY EXCEPTIONAL circumstance (e.g. I was okay with the kick until AFTER the game was over and I realized what the kicked person's actual strategy was with "trolling").

I would definitely NOT call Claw a troll by any definition of the word. He's a solid player who almost always kicks for justified reasons. Literally one time that I've disagreed with him (and that's rare on the internet; I disagree with a LOT of stuff I see online. xD).

Beyond that, Claw has the patience of a saint for putting up with all the people who complain about his moderating style. No way he's a troll.

[Elixir]

Oh ya, I know Goon will ardently disagree:

Claw is a troll. His standards for bannable offenses seem to fluctuate with his mood, his role, or his conversation relative to the offender. Oh ya, he has the ability to kick people from the game. I am not speaking from the standpoint of a victim, I have only witnessed it. twice.

Are you sure it was him? Because there is a hacker in game named Kalafina hacking kick privileges that will come up with an actual moderators name

[oops_ur_dead]

SALUTATIONS, MY TITLE IS ENGLISHMAN. I POSSES ABUNDANT ADROITNESS IN BROACHING IN A DELICATE AND CONFOUND HABITUDE, EVEN IF SUCH DECORATED ARTICULATION ASSAYS NO BENEDICTION TO THE EXTANT AFFAIR.

Please read this: https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

[CyanBlade]

I troll a little, it's mostly verbal though. nothing that messes up games.

[UndertowSong#2]

Thats fine Cyan.

Nice Orwell drop.

I dont why you thought it would be interesting to point out the sycophancy laced in these posts. its more than obvious. Not all of us live by occam's razor, especially in diction.

Coincidentially, I used to go to school next to Mt Holyoke.

Lysergic, I find the problem is that multiple people have these stories about claw. I think in easy, casual conversation he is very conscious and seemingly rationale. However, it seems there are multiple accounts in which his demeanor in questionable situations becomes much more brash and less reasonable.

Maybe Claw's troublesome disposition is far more ambiguous than I had initially thought... Maybe in this case I am guilty of the same brash reasoning that I accuse him of in circumstances of specificity. For that, I may retract the whole heartedness of my previous statement.

As for the matters of Province and Coopstar, they still stand in Oak like roots.

More to come, most likely.

[Goonswarm]

Troll in roles that allow for it (mafia/neutral) and very seldom as town when required to win.

[Clawtrocity]

You're all using the wrong definition of trolling.

Acting like an ass to win as a jester or even as an ass to make people think you are a jester as mafia.
I.E. Spamming, being racist, using all caps all the time, blatantly ruining the game, or any of that is trolling and you will usually get kicked in my games. Again, I don't kick until either that person is lynched, dies, or when the white screen happens. Playing like that to win is what I consider trolling. If you are a Jester and are throwing off an investigation by calling someone else out, claiming a role that can't be possible, claiming that you are a vig that attacked GF first night even though vig can't attack first night, lying at all in anyway possible...Those are all clean cut ways to win and aren't trolling.

[Ash]

Hi, was I missing the party??
I think we all know I'm a good troll, and I disagree with the majority of the people up there.
1. You are missing Kevinfookyou in the list, he is a good troll like me.
2. 514,Claw,Northstar, and Landstander never trolls, especially Northstar..
3. You also troll.
4. What was that part about me being a 13 year-old?

[Clawtrocity]

lol Ash made a forum account just to troll people who are trolling him.

[Lysergic]

or even as an ass to make people think you are a jester as mafia.

That's the only way people can make others think they are Jester as Mafia. Because the correct way to play Jester is to get lynched. But people pretending to be Jester want to SEEM like they want to get lynched WITHOUT actually BEING lynched. So the solution is to play the "noob obvious Jester" method, where they type in all caps and constantly accuse the same person when it is obvious that the person is innocent.

I.E. Spamming, being racist, using all caps all the time, blatantly ruining the game, or any of that is trolling

Of those, the only kick worthy one is racism. All caps and spamming are useful in the above scenario. For town roles, any of those are kick worthy. But for mafia pretending to be jester (or just a noob jester who doesn't know how to play properly), the non-racist trolling elements have a valid strategic use.

Again, I don't kick until either that person is lynched, dies, or when the white screen happens.

The thing I mentioned earlier was an instance where you kicked a Mafia who YOU thought was a Jester (because he was being obnoxious) while he was still alive. It turned out he was Mafia; he had SUCCESSFULLY avoided being lynched because people thought he was Jester, and remaining town had been preparing to kill the true Jester for being Mafia. Because he was kicked, Mafia lost. Had he stayed in game 1 more night, Mafia would have won.

Again, that is the ONLY time I've disagreed with a kick decision that I saw from you. But don't say you "never" kick people who are alive when you do. To clarify, I don't think you're a "troll" nor do I think you're a bad mod. I just think that you have to acknowledge that ONCE IN A WHILE you kick people who don't deserve it. I can post the replay if you don't remember the round; it was in-house, and a lot of people quit in anger when they realized what had happened.

[TheJackofSpades]

Like radiohead said to Miley Cyrus

Maybe you'll learn to not have such a sense of entitlement.

The list is for Ultra trolls (coopstar/province) And those unfairly portrayed as such.

I am not here to report on the mediocre and lukewarm meanderings of those who pride themselves on thinking others think they are worth mentioning as trolls.

Yeah, I have a sense of entitlement, yet you put yourself on your own list. Go figure.

[Clawtrocity]

@Lysergic:

I kicked that guy for admitting to be at the other person's house.

They hadn't PM'd all game, they had the same name, they were both acting like trolls regardless of which roles they were, and then he actually said "Me and X are at the same house we known we are town you are bad".

I looked into it making sure they hadn't been PMing or anything and sure enough they hadn't.

I hated them for being obnoxious douchebags. I kicked him for cheating.

Remember it was 1 Mafia 1 Jester and 2 Town(1 Escort) who were 100% convinced the person I kicked was Mafia. There was no winning in that situation for the Mafia.

[Lysergic]

I remember very clearly that the two townies were 100% that the person who was actually the Jester was Mafia. They would have lynched Jester, and then one would have died that night (possibly both if the suicide and Mafia kill didn't hit the same guy). And I don't remember them talking about being at the same house.

In any event, my point is that that's the ONLY time I remember you kicking someone that I didn't think should be kicked, and that's an impressive track record (hence, you're a good mod is my point. xD).

[UndertowSong#2]

Like radiohead said to Miley Cyrus

Maybe you'll learn to not have such a sense of entitlement.

The list is for Ultra trolls (coopstar/province) And those unfairly portrayed as such.

I am not here to report on the mediocre and lukewarm meanderings of those who pride themselves on thinking others think they are worth mentioning as trolls.

Yeah, I have a sense of entitlement, yet you put yourself on your own list. Go figure.

Ya. ITS MY THREAD. its not a sense. its a reality. go make your own thread and sit on your own throne.

Ash, are you 13? I never suggested you were.

I've played with kevin but he never seemed to distinctly stand out as a troll. I guess I wasn't paying attention.

Again, Northstar and 514 are awesome. Ive just seen people suggest they were trolls. My original post vindicates them of such suggestion.

[TheJackofSpades]

Like radiohead said to Miley Cyrus

Maybe you'll learn to not have such a sense of entitlement.

The list is for Ultra trolls (coopstar/province) And those unfairly portrayed as such.

I am not here to report on the mediocre and lukewarm meanderings of those who pride themselves on thinking others think they are worth mentioning as trolls.

Yeah, I have a sense of entitlement, yet you put yourself on your own list. Go figure.

Ya. ITS MY THREAD. its not a sense. its a reality. go make your own thread and sit on your own throne.

Lol. That's all I have to say.

[AdmiralCain]

I also warn players for saying something that isn't possible. If someone says "Oh I can't be GF because GF is seen as Invest to the Invest" I'll warn them for that if I'm not alive to tell them that they are wrong. You shouldn't be able to win off of the technicality of new players. I had to warn Goon once for talking an arson into voting a GF up and lynching him. The arson and SK were both immune so SK won by default the next day. He said the arson would win if he did it.

In my opinion, this is an abuse of moderator powers. The player who lies about the way investigator reads GF is not hacking, nor skyping, nor colluding with members of the other team, nor giving spoilers in lag chat, nor breaking any other rule. The only "immoral" thing he is doing is lying. But lying is not against the rules of Mafia--in fact, it's part of the game.

In my view, telling the above lie was no worse than a GF falsely role-claiming as doctor when the town does a rolecall, when it's not possible to have a doctor because there are no rabdom basic towns left. And yet in that situation, it is clearly NOT cheating for the GF to falsely role-claim doctor, and no reasonable person would expect the GF to honestly claim as GF during a rolecall. But such a roleclaim also takes advantage of newbie players' lack of knowledge, since new players often don't know how to count off random roles, which ones are basic/advanced, etc.

Moreover, you stated that you only "warn" for lying about game mechanics when you are dead and can't call them out on it in the real chat. But talking from the dead actually is cheating. If a dead person said in the lag chat "there are no basic towns left--red can't be doc!" or "GF shows as 'not suspicious' to invest!" that is something that Goon would obviously warn and/or ban them for, and I'm guessing you would too. So, why does the fact that you're a moderator, charged with enforcing the rules, make it appropriate for you to speak from the dead by issuing a "warning" to alert the town that someone is lying about their role or the game mechanics--when no normal player could send such information to the town without cheating?

Finally, you stated in your next post that it's perfectly legitimate for a jester to fake-claim as Vig and claim that he shot the GF first night, in order to get the jester lynched for lying because vig can't shoot first night. But that's also a lie, and it also takes advantage of newbies' lack of knowledge (since "vig can't kill on first night" is not written in the Vig's role description, and is something that only experienced players who have attempted it, or who have read the entire changelog, would be aware of). So, if it's okay for a jester to claim something impossible, to get himself lynched and fulfill his win condition, how is it a warnable/bannable offense for a GF to claim something impossible to avoid being lynched and fulfull his win condition?

Lying is part of the Game of mafia, and IMO it is absolutely not appropriate to warn or ban someone just because he is lying, nor is it fair for a dead mod to send a message to the town via a "warning" to someone who just told a lie, as that tips the balance of the game, which dead people are not suppose to do. If everyone was honest all the time in Mafia, it would be a very boring game and the town would win every time. The whole point of the game is for the bad guys to lie, and for the town to figure out who is lying--without help from dead moderators sending hints from the graveyard.

[Goonswarm]

I also warn players for saying something that isn't possible. If someone says "Oh I can't be GF because GF is seen as Invest to the Invest" I'll warn them for that if I'm not alive to tell them that they are wrong. You shouldn't be able to win off of the technicality of new players. I had to warn Goon once for talking an arson into voting a GF up and lynching him. The arson and SK were both immune so SK won by default the next day. He said the arson would win if he did it.

In my opinion, this is an abuse of moderator powers. The player who lies about the way investigator reads GF is not hacking, nor skyping, nor colluding with members of the other team, nor giving spoilers in lag chat, nor breaking any other rule. The only "immoral" thing he is doing is lying. But lying is not against the rules of Mafia--in fact, it's part of the game.

In my view, telling the above lie was no worse than a GF falsely role-claiming as doctor when the town does a rolecall, when it's not possible to have a doctor because there are no rabdom basic towns left. And yet in that situation, it is clearly NOT cheating for the GF to falsely role-claim doctor, and no reasonable person would expect the GF to honestly claim as GF during a rolecall. But such a roleclaim also takes advantage of newbie players' lack of knowledge, since new players often don't know how to count off random roles, which ones are basic/advanced, etc.

Moreover, you stated that you only "warn" for lying about game mechanics when you are dead and can't call them out on it in the real chat. But talking from the dead actually is cheating. If a dead person said in the lag chat "there are no basic towns left--red can't be doc!" or "GF shows as 'not suspicious' to invest!" that is something that Goon would obviously warn and/or ban them for, and I'm guessing you would too. So, why does the fact that you're a moderator, charged with enforcing the rules, make it appropriate for you to speak from the dead by issuing a "warning" to alert the town that someone is lying about their role or the game mechanics--when no normal player could send such information to the town without cheating?

Finally, you stated in your next post that it's perfectly legitimate for a jester to fake-claim as Vig and claim that he shot the GF first night, in order to get the jester lynched for lying because vig can't shoot first night. But that's also a lie, and it also takes advantage of newbies' lack of knowledge (since "vig can't kill on first night" is not written in the Vig's role description, and is something that only experienced players who have attempted it, or who have read the entire changelog, would be aware of). So, if it's okay for a jester to claim something impossible, to get himself lynched and fulfill his win condition, how is it a warnable/bannable offense for a GF to claim something impossible to avoid being lynched and fulfull his win condition?

Lying is part of the Game of mafia, and IMO it is absolutely not appropriate to warn or ban someone just because he is lying, nor is it fair for a dead mod to send a message to the town via a "warning" to someone who just told a lie, as that tips the balance of the game, which dead people are not suppose to do. If everyone was honest all the time in Mafia, it would be a very boring game and the town would win every time. The whole point of the game is for the bad guys to lie, and for the town to figure out who is lying--without help from dead moderators sending hints from the graveyard.

I Lied lol, not my fault they didn't know how the game works XD Win at all costs regardless. Also that game I really did think that the neutrals would win together so it was a mistake. Still not worthy to warn over or take any action at all. I honestly don't consider anything kick worthy other than excessive town trolling and skype/party chat abuse. You have to be a massive douchebag to get a kick for gameplay reasons from me.

[Clawtrocity]

Role color buttons aren't in the help menu or wiki. You could play this game 100 times and never get a certain role. You would never know the color buttons. You are then forced into not being able to use that lie if an invest detects you as the opposite of that role.

You are trolling when you ask the person to read the role description, name the color of the buttons, or anything else you can't know without actually being that role at that time.

If you ask them who did they target or you have proof and you get enough people to believe your truth over his lie or you take matters into your own hands and shoot him, jail him, or block him then you aren't trolling. At that point you're playing the game.

If you're mafia there are always enough lies that you can use to get out of something that having a townsmember force you to memorize role information is just stupid. You could be the best liar on the face of the planet and win this game all the time because of you're great convincing skills, but then someone comes up and says "Oh so you're coroner...What color are the buttons? Read your description to me. I need you to read exactly what the text says when you were given your role. What was the sound byte that played when you were given your role?" You lose the game because you don't have everything memorized.

Not only that, but it obviously proves that even people playing the correct role might not even remember the color of stuff like that. You'll be lynching innocent people because you decided to troll them. That's about as bad as a doctor randomly calling people out and saying he did it for the lulz or that "it wasn't his fault the person can't remember the colors the buttons he has at night"

You and I can literally argue about this for days, but it'll always just be "I think I'm right for X,Y, and Z and you're wrong because of A, B, and C."

As soon as I saw the colors for buttons I knew this kind of shit would start happening and it just isn't necessary. I'm not playing Mafia constantly and going around kicking people who say "Oh that guy was stabbed it must of been a spy! Only spy kills show up as backstab no SK here!!" I'm just expressing my opinion on how future events like this should be handled.

[TheJackofSpades]

There's a point where metagame concepts begin to degrade the quality of play. There's no skill involved in memorization. Please don't turn Mafia into MK9.

[Goonswarm]

Role color buttons aren't in the help menu or wiki. You could play this game 100 times and never get a certain role. You would never know the color buttons. You are then forced into not being able to use that lie if an invest detects you as the opposite of that role.

You are trolling when you ask the person to read the role description, name the color of the buttons, or anything else you can't know without actually being that role at that time.

If you ask them who did they target or you have proof and you get enough people to believe your truth over his lie or you take matters into your own hands and shoot him, jail him, or block him then you aren't trolling. At that point you're playing the game.

If you're mafia there are always enough lies that you can use to get out of something that having a townsmember force you to memorize role information is just stupid. You could be the best liar on the face of the planet and win this game all the time because of you're great convincing skills, but then someone comes up and says "Oh so you're coroner...What color are the buttons? Read your description to me. I need you to read exactly what the text says when you were given your role. What was the sound byte that played when you were given your role?" You lose the game because you don't have everything memorized.

Not only that, but it obviously proves that even people playing the correct role might not even remember the color of stuff like that. You'll be lynching innocent people because you decided to troll them. That's about as bad as a doctor randomly calling people out and saying he did it for the lulz or that "it wasn't his fault the person can't remember the colors the buttons he has at night"

You and I can literally argue about this for days, but it'll always just be "I think I'm right for X,Y, and Z and you're wrong because of A, B, and C."

As soon as I saw the colors for buttons I knew this kind of shit would start happening and it just isn't necessary. I'm not playing Mafia constantly and going around kicking people who say "Oh that guy was stabbed it must of been a spy! Only spy kills show up as backstab no SK here!!" I'm just expressing my opinion on how future events like this should be handled.

After reading this and thinking how difficult it would be for people who simply have not played the game enough I believe you are correct in that playing that style is not in the best interest of the game. I think I shall refrain from questioning people based on statics and stick to gameplay. However I will continue to use false role card reading and anything I can to defend myself.

In regards to the mechanics issue, they are complicated enough as it is and I have never intentionally misled someone on mechanics and I would not nor do I plan to going forward as the game is very complicated.

A point well made, however I will not be kicking anyone if they decide to play that way but I do agree it would be in the best interest of all the players in the game if we decided to steer away from asking people detailed questions about the role that only 1: An extremely experienced person would know and 2: Would be a trap for most inexperienced players.

I do however believe it is fair if someone makes a claim to ask what the text exactly said as that is something that is logged and more than fair to question someone and thus trap them in a lie.

This was posted while I was typing:

There's a point where metagame concepts begin to degrade the quality of play. There's no skill involved in memorization. Please don't turn Mafia into MK9.

I do agree with both you and claw after having it portrayed in a different light.

[AdmiralCain]

Role color buttons aren't in the help menu or wiki. You could play this game 100 times and never get a certain role. You would never know the color buttons. You are then forced into not being able to use that lie if an invest detects you as the opposite of that role.

You are trolling when you ask the person to read the role description, name the color of the buttons, or anything else you can't know without actually being that role at that time.

You must be using a definition of trolling that I'm unfamiliar with, since this sort of questioning behavior (while aggressive, and in some cases perhaps unfairly so--although I think asking about the role card is fair) does not involve lying, deliberately sabotaging your own team, or abandoning your win condition to accomplish your personal goal of hurting or helping a particular player. How are you definining "trolling"?

I think it would be trolling, of course, if you target a player with this kind of question because you are personal friends with him and know that he is dyslexic or has a bad memory, and you're just trying to sabotage him; but if you're a townie using this strategy in an attempt to ascertain the truth and help your town win, then I think the strategy might be described as "not in the best interests of the game" but certainly not trolling.

If it's down to me (doctor), GF, and a spy, and both the GF and spy are claiming spy...what should I do? Well, I could ask the spy to read a PM. Is it cheap? Perhaps, because there's no way the GF can fake as spy even if he knows the spy role when I ask him to actually read a PM. Is it smart? Yup. Will I do it if it means the difference between a guaranteed win and a random lynch? You bet I will. Is it trolling? Uh, not by any definition of the word "trolling" that I am familiar with. Suggesting a random lynch in that situation (when town can be definitively proven) would actually be more like trolling.

[McJesus]

Landstander and Ash are cool, I have no idea why people keep making these damn lists when it is just a list of people you don't like. Seriously no one gives a fuck about your opinion and I'm not going to sugarcoat that fact.

[Zack]

Forcing players to read their role card word for word is abusive to new players and may make them stop playing Mafia altogether. I strongly advise against doing something like this... Even if they claim a false role, disprove them the proper way, not like this.

[Lysergic]

Role color buttons aren't in the help menu or wiki. You could play this game 100 times and never get a certain role. You would never know the color buttons. You are then forced into not being able to use that lie if an invest detects you as the opposite of that role.

You are trolling when you ask the person to read the role description, name the color of the buttons, or anything else you can't know without actually being that role at that time.

You must be using a definition of trolling that I'm unfamiliar with, since this sort of questioning behavior (while aggressive, and in some cases perhaps unfairly so--although I think asking about the role card is fair) does not involve lying, deliberately sabotaging your own team, or abandoning your win condition to accomplish your personal goal of hurting or helping a particular player. How are you definining "trolling"?

I think it would be trolling, of course, if you target a player with this kind of question because you are personal friends with him and know that he is dyslexic or has a bad memory, and you're just trying to sabotage him; but if you're a townie using this strategy in an attempt to ascertain the truth and help your town win, then I think the strategy might be described as "not in the best interests of the game" but certainly not trolling.

If it's down to me (doctor), GF, and a spy, and both the GF and spy are claiming spy...what should I do? Well, I could ask the spy to read a PM. Is it cheap? Perhaps, because there's no way the GF can fake as spy even if he knows the spy role when I ask him to actually read a PM. Is it smart? Yup. Will I do it if it means the difference between a guaranteed win and a random lynch? You bet I will. Is it trolling? Uh, not by any definition of the word "trolling" that I am familiar with. Suggesting a random lynch in that situation (when town can be definitively proven) would actually be more like trolling.

The point of having the Spy able to read PMs is that it makes him nigh unlynchable. In other words, that's a game mechanic functioning properly.

The role cards are there to help new players who are unfamiliar with the game know what to do. It is unfair to expect them to have every card memorized so that they can false claim. There are ways of figuring out who is lying that are less cheap than forcing a role card read.

I was once lynched as SK claiming Doctor because I got A SINGLE word on the role card for Doctor wrong; everything else was typed verbatim except for ONE WORD. Town lynched.

You say it isn't trolling, but what if EVERYONE demanded a role claim on Day 1 accompanied by the entire role card for EVERY player. Anyone who didn't get it right would be lynched, Vig shot, or jailed that night.

Is that fair? Because it sounds like a shitty way to play from where I'm standing.

[Zack]

I completely agree with Lysergic here, if you love DR's Mafia game don't take a course of action that could possibly ruin it and make people stop playing.

There are enough types of trolls and idiots out there, don't make yourself a "Technical Terror Troll". I just made that up, but it sounds cool, and short is TTT :P

[AdmiralCain]

Wow, there are a lot of fairly random arguments lumped into that last post, so I guess I'll go through them one by one.

The point of having the Spy able to read PMs is that it makes him nigh unlynchable. In other words, that's a game mechanic functioning properly.

Who says that the specific purpose of enabling Spy to read PMs was to make him unlynchable? As opposed to just giving him another way to gather information, or because it makes sense intuitively for an eavesdropper to be able to hear PMs? How do you know that asking a Spy to read PMs must be a game mechanic working properly, whereas asking someone what color the night buttons are must be "trolling"? (What other purpose do colors on night buttons even serve?) Some blackmailers have gotten really mad at me when they claimed Spy and I proved that they were unable to read PMs, saying that it was a cheap trick, etc. etc. I stll do it, but the point is that people have different ways of playing the game, without cheating or breaking any rules, and people disagree about the cheapness or validity of some techniques used by experienced players. It's not fair to say that every way other than your way is "trolling."

The role cards are there to help new players who are unfamiliar with the game know what to do. It is unfair to expect them to have every card memorized so that they can false claim. There are ways of figuring out who is lying that are less cheap than forcing a role card read.

No one is saying that people should have every role card memorized in order to false claim (really, who said that?). But they could just do as Goon suggests and read the rolecard of their corresponding Town role (e.g. Sk reads doctor's card) frpm the Help menu at the start of the game. Not as good as actually having the card in front of you, of course, but the point is that no one is demanding that anyone memorize all the role cards in the game.

Also, often times the town resorts to a rolecard read when there are no other ways of figuring out who is lying. For example, when all investigative and roleblocking roles are dead, and there are only a few townies left. Or, when it's Lynch or Lose time (e.g. 2 townies vs 1 mafia/SK) and no more leads are available--then, town can request a suspicious person (such as someone roleclaiming Invest on the last day but who has not given any leads all game) to read her rolecard, and this can be a smart move when the only alternative is a random lynch.

Finally, even if there are sometimes other ways to figure out who is lying, the fact that "there are other ways" does not mean that one way should never ever be used. For example, you've just stated that ordering a Spy to recite a PM is a legitimate tactic, but by the same logic one could also say that it should never be used because "there are other ways to see who is lying" than by forcing a claimed spy to read a PM, and that a forced PM read is trolling becaues it's unfair for the blackmailer, etc. etc.

I was once lynched as SK claiming Doctor because I got A SINGLE word on the role card for Doctor wrong; everything else was typed verbatim except for ONE WORD. Town lynched.

I dunno about this, dude--it really should not have been hard to read text that was right in front of you, so if I were town I would have lynched you, too. Read more carefully next time? If a lot of people made this kind of mistake, town would not use this tactic at all; the town uses it because it usually works, but you screwed it up.

And the fact that a strategy does not work 100% of the time does not make it trolling to use it. Sheriff/investigator leads aren't 100% reliable either (busdriver, undetected witch, GF immunity, etc); but that doesn't make it "trolling" to lynch someone who is accused by a confirmed sheriff or investigator.

You say it isn't trolling, but what if EVERYONE demanded a role claim on Day 1 accompanied by the entire role card for EVERY player. Anyone who didn't get it right would be lynched, Vig shot, or jailed that night.

Is that fair? Because it sounds like a shitty way to play from where I'm standing.

First of all, that's not what's happening; absurdities from the slippery slope prove nothing. Any strategy, if taken to ridiculous extremes, can be made to look ridiculous; that doesn't mean that it should NEVER be used.

For example, it can be smart to lynch someone when a claimed sheriff accuses him as mafia, but if EVERYONE unquestioningly lynched ANYONE who was EVER accused by ANYONE claiming to be sheriff, the mafia would just claim sheriff and get all the townies lynched. And yet it's not proper to conclude from that, that no one should EVER listen to anyone who claims sheriff; the proper conclusion is just not to take it to extremes, and to use some independent judgment or combine it with other strategies. Any legitimate strategy can be used in a stupid way; that doesn't mean the strategy itself is stupid.

Second, you still haven't defined "trolling," such that it would qualify as "trolling" for a townie to ask another townie who is suspicious (for example, someone who has been found to have guns by an invest, in a game where there is a preset mafioso, but the sheriff died on the first night and can't confirm the lead) to read his role card, in an effort to determine whether the suspicious person is a mafioso or a jailer/vig, and avoid a random lynch. The townie is making a good-faith effort to try to catch the bad guys before he dies, and to help the town win. The strategy may be imperfect, but there are no perfect strategies available. The townie is NOT intentionally trying to lose, deliberately sabotage the game, or entertain himself at the town's expense. So, how are you defining "trolling" to include this technique?

Third, demanding a rolecall and full rolecard read on the first day would, as you noted, be a "shity way to play," but NOT because it would be unfair. It would be a shitty way to play because it is stupid and would not work. First of all, the doctors. sheriff, and invest would be instantly targeted by the killers. Second, it's not even possible to do as you asked--there is not enough time in the first day for everyone to type in their entire rolecards and have it be in the chat log without creating a huge unreadable mess. Third, a rolecall when there are tons of randoms still alive is not informative. So, yes, it would be shitty to do a rolecall on the first day and demand that everyone type in their rolecards.

But that is completely different from doing a rolecall late in the game (e.g. after the randoms are dead), or from asking ONE person who is specifically suspicious (e.g. invest said he had knives/guns) to read his rolecard. As noted above, the fact that a strategy does not work ALL the time does not lead to the conclusion that it should NEVER be used under any circumstances--particularly when only a few townies are left, and the only alternative is a random lynch, many desperate strategies become viable. So, how is it "trolling" to use a desperate but viable strategy? Just because you disapprove of a strategy as being risky or not 100% reliable does not make it trolling. You can try to talk the town out of using it (but good luck, if there are no leads and it's lynch or lose time), but it's really not fair to say that anyone who uses this strategy is a troll.

[AdmiralCain]

There are enough types of trolls and idiots out there, don't make yourself a "Technical Terror Troll". I just made that up, but it sounds cool, and short is TTT :P

I would also be curious to hear your defintion of troll, such that a player who asks for a rolecall or a rolecard read from a suspicious person in a desperate situation qualifies as "trolling."

[Clawtrocity]

It's trolling because you're asking them to do something they shouldn't have to do. The second you ask them that you are asking them to stop having a life and to sit through and memorize the entire wiki-pedia...To go through the help list and type out every single role card and be forced to play in Windowed mode. You're gaining nothing from this other than if the person fools you then they took they took the time to memorize this. Your methodology is in no way fool-proof and it's stupid to try and use it in games to win.

What if the person was color-blind? I totally see you saying "Bullshit" and lynching him even though a lot of people are color blind. I'm seriously considering asking Dark to change the color of all buttons to the town alignment and no special colors. Green for all town roles, Red for Mafia, Purple for SK, orange for Arsonist and Purple for witch. Blue for vests or Green for cit vest and Yellow for Survivor vest.

Actually I'm just going to ask Dark here.

If you can change the buttons to match the alignment that'd be awesome.

Also can you turn off the role card after the first night. Completely take it away leaving only the name of your role and some text that says: If you need to read your role card go to the help menu.

There's no reason for it to be right in front of you anyway. You can read it the first night and then it'll go away.

There should no way for you to prove you're identity unless you are a Mayor or a Spy. That's insanely overpowered, cheating, and not part of the game. If Dark intended for all town roles to be able to reveal themselves then he would of put a -reveal code into the game.

This game at it's most basic form is about if an uninformed majority can overcome an informed minority. You throw in flavor roles and neutrals for fun and Mafia becomes a front page SC2 quality game. An informed Majority wins 100% of games against an informed minority. Stop trying to ruin Mafia Admiral.

[Dark.Revenant]

The role card is very important for new players. Forcing them to go into help to reread it is cruel. Also, the allies list is pretty damn important to have in front of you.

[Clawtrocity]

With the new achievement system is there anyway to figure out who's won as a few roles before so they basically aren't new anymore and can access the help menu hopefully?

Allies list can stay because there's no way to use that as a device...Only allies you have are Masons/Mafia/Cult(When it gets put in)

I mean if it becomes to hard to remove the role card, but keep the role name/allies info then it'd be best to just not mess with it at all. It's only a nuisance if people abuse it.

[Goonswarm]

With the new achievement system is there anyway to figure out who's won as a few roles before so they basically aren't new anymore and can access the help menu hopefully?

Allies list can stay because there's no way to use that as a device...Only allies you have are Masons/Mafia/Cult(When it gets put in)

I mean if it becomes to hard to remove the role card, but keep the role name/allies info then it'd be best to just not mess with it at all. It's only a nuisance if people abuse it.

Removing the role card is not the answer. Imagine if a new player gets jailor. That role card has alot on it. On top of that I think the solution is to simply remove being able to click help or read your role card on trial. That makes the most sense to me, then again idk if that is the best fix or not.

[Clawtrocity]

That would help, but maybe if you've won as a role then you can't read the role card AFTER the first night.

[Lysergic]

The role card is very important for new players. Forcing them to go into help to reread it is cruel. Also, the allies list is pretty damn important to have in front of you.

This might require EPIC recoding, but having the Help menu function like the Log (where you can type while it is open) would solve this problem. The current problem is that you CAN'T look something up in Help and type at the same time, which means that you HAVE to have the cards memorized to false claim when people are forcing role card reads.

I dunno about this, dude--it really should not have been hard to read text that was right in front of you, so if I were town I would have lynched you, too. Read more carefully next time? If a lot of people made this kind of mistake, town would not use this tactic at all; the town uses it because it usually works, but you screwed it up.

Not going through your epic-rage-wall-o-text, but just wanted to point out that you clearly didn't read my post judging from how you responded here. I wasn't a Doc who got lynched by town; I was SK who was FORCED to "read" the role card for Doc. I did so CORRECTLY except for ONE word that I didn't get right. Unfortunately, you can't type with the Help Menu open, which means that forcing a role card read means that you HAVE to have the card memorized.

Considering that the creator of the game agrees with this, I think my Spy example is perfectly valid as an example of a game mechanic working correctly (and the role card read as an example of a cruel way to punish new players and discourage them from continuing to play).

But whatever; from now on, I will just force everyone to role card read rather than try to use strategy and MY BRAIN to figure out who is lying.

In fact, DR, can you just auto-reveal all roles at the start of the game? I hate thinking.

EDIT:
Also, having read the last portion of your post, fine; I revise my statement. Forcing a role card read isn't "trolling" (since you'll just do a ZOMG GIVE ME ENCYCLOPEDIA DEFINITION OF TROLL PLZ - hint, try the first page of this topic). It's just a douche way to play. And people who do it are douchebags.

So next time you force a roll card read, remember: you are a douchebag for doing so. The poor player who is doing his first time as SK and is two turns from winning will NOT come back to play. That makes you a douche. And I don't like douches.

And if you want the definition of douche too, look it up yourself.

[Deathfire123]

add WhiteRa and IdrA to the banned list

[SilentShadow]

Yes add IdrA and WhiteRa to the ban list. Me Deathfire and david all were witnesses to them using Mumble to cheat by having a dead person tell teh living person who the last mafia was when they were revealed to dead people. WhiteRa also admitted to using Mumble.

[Zack]

There are enough types of trolls and idiots out there, don't make yourself a "Technical Terror Troll". I just made that up, but it sounds cool, and short is TTT :P

I would also be curious to hear your defintion of troll, such that a player who asks for a rolecall or a rolecard read from a suspicious person in a desperate situation qualifies as "trolling."

The definition isn't "Troll", its "Technical Terror Troll", in short: TTT. Its a new term that doesn't appear in any dictionary or encyclopedia, and currently applies to you.

[NorthStar]

Define EXACTLY how I am a troll, and please, provide proof.

[Clawtrocity]

You're a troll because you can't read what he said about you.

"Firstly, people who are often associated with trolling but are actually, most usually, good competent mafia players:"

[NorthStar]

But I want proof of WHEN I do troll.

[Clawtrocity]

Stop trolling.

"Firstly, people who are often associated with trolling but are actually, most usually, good competent mafia players:"

[SilentShadow]

I like his use of large typing

[AdmiralCain]

I think what NorthStar objected to was actually the part highlighted in red:

Stop trolling.

"Firstly, people who are often associated with trolling but are actually, most usually, good competent mafia players:"

NorthStar's point was that he does not want to be described as EVER trolling, without specific proof. So his complaint itself wasn't a troll.

But I agree with Claw's general point that the OP's intent was to defend NorthStar, not call him out. Unfortunately, the choice of words was not entirely perfect.