S-FM 362: ?KRC: Odyssey through the Ages

[FM-Mountain Tops]

If anyone is able to learn the exact percentage of votes Snail Streamer receives, we can probably use that as an alignment check BTW

To be clear about this - if, say, Snail Streamer got 96% of the votes, then we would know that exactly 25 people voted for him. Which would mean he's town (or a lost wolf), since it means there's 25 people not in a factional chat with him.

This would need some coordination or luck to work though

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

Wasnt Pink Slip the one who got a cat??????

They were hunting for people with cats. I called them out for that.
Their role card gained power by killing peoples cats and having people talk about cats.

[FM-Wine Mom]

I think Raincoat needs to be on all shot lists for today

[FM-Great Speech]

Oh, and I voted for Lady of the Lake for president because she is vewy towny and this felt rather widely recognized, even though some seemed to disagree. I also really liked how they were reacting to the Mtn Dew wagon gaining traction with something like "why does the wagon I assembled look so horrible now": it makes no sense for scum to do this with a wagon against town that they built themselves. Glad to see her being president.

im claiming the kill on bosun. i thought they were towny but i really wasn't confident and re-reading EoD made me believe that resolving the CW was probably good for info. i am sorry to bosun as im sure u were having fun and I'm the one who put an end to that. I was thinking about shooting one of wine mom/great speech but thought their slots revolved around Bosun a bit, and that killing bosun would help figure them out. I find it incredibly strange both lady & wine mom got 6 votes, i feel like theres gotta be a scum between the 2

I...

Well, at least the slot's resolved now, so you lot can stop scurrying around it, I guess. I do not like your slot and do not like your... apologizing tone, although I think I may be biased because YOU SHOT BOSUN, DAMN IT. I guess there is a case for flipping the slot to figure out interactions, but still, come on.
... yeah actually, that case probably makes sense from the perspective of someone who wasn't sold on bosun.
Okay but wait, you said you thought they were towny. Did you really have no actual scumreads to shoot instead?? @FM-Jiraffe

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

Im vetoing votes on Wasteland

I have them between scum and detrimental town at the moment. It was D1 but the best look they have right now was that awful EoD

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

Btw. Im good with FM-Jiraffe claiming the shot. Debatable if it was the best move, wish we had that flip so last night we could had a wagon to dig into but them flat out claiming it feels towny to me and I absolutely understand the desire to resolve the cw

[FM-Wine Mom]

Perhaps worth mentioning that Pink did not like Aliens.

[FM-Snail Streamer]

why? the two main wagons wer eliterally both town

The people tha voted them hopped off Bosun to vote Wasteland. In like, a really wolfy way.

You have Ryast that was really out of touch/not caught up, and yet entered thread to try to sell a case on Wasteland out of nowhere.

And then Purple Forest that unvoted Bosun their main sus through most of the day at EoD because they werent caught up and didnt felt like voting, to then joining a CFD ln Wasteland with little context even though Bosun was a lead wagon still? Istg Purple EoD should be considered outing and unless someone has anything clearing for them I want them dead first in ITAs

[FM-Jiraffe]

im not seeing why purple forests EoD was bad. i kinda fuck with it heavy. towny progression throughout the day too

[FM-Great Speech]

I'm seeing a bunch of people saying "oh ohhh great speech is so bad for having defended bosun". To all of you : GO TO HELL (kindly). I was right for correct reasons, I have given those reasons, and you can literally go and read them. @FM-Smug Viking , if you think I was "coaching scum in day chat"... I mean, if you think I'm scum, wouldn't I simply DO THAT IN SCUM CHAT?

It's baffling to see people blame me for being correct just because someone didn't want to listen.


IN OTHER NEWS.

-vote FM-Wasteland

I said this should die on ITAs yesterday and I stand by it. Reading their ISO should make this statement self-explanatory, really.

[KRC Hosts]

Votes placed before this point have been reset, as we did not clear the votecount from yesterday. You may now vote.

[FM-Angry Clown]

Speech I might not quite understand your vibe but I do enjoy it :o)

[FM-Jiraffe]

Oh, and I voted for Lady of the Lake for president because she is vewy towny and this felt rather widely recognized, even though some seemed to disagree. I also really liked how they were reacting to the Mtn Dew wagon gaining traction with something like "why does the wagon I assembled look so horrible now": it makes no sense for scum to do this with a wagon against town that they built themselves. Glad to see her being president.



I...

Well, at least the slot's resolved now, so you lot can stop scurrying around it, I guess. I do not like your slot and do not like your... apologizing tone, although I think I may be biased because YOU SHOT BOSUN, DAMN IT. I guess there is a case for flipping the slot to figure out interactions, but still, come on.
... yeah actually, that case probably makes sense from the perspective of someone who wasn't sold on bosun.
Okay but wait, you said you thought they were towny. Did you really have no actual scumreads to shoot instead?? @FM-Jiraffe

i did have scumreads but i was a) tired b) not really wanting to put tons of time into solving the game since my brain was so fogged from being tired and c) not confident

[FM-Snail Streamer]

-vote Purple Forest

[FM-Wine Mom]

-vote FM-Raincoat

[FM-Snail Streamer]

-vote Unvote

-vote FM-Purple Forest

[FM-Jiraffe]

like i said I was planning on shooting you great speech until ur defense of bosun mad eme realize shooting the CW and actually getting info on that is probably better

[FM-Smug Viking]

-vote FM-Great Speech

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

On the EoD progression a few things bothered me. In particular how the 'reasoning' did not carry over to the following trains.

It was like people were shoving "The case on them is really weak" Then they tried to offset to Viking who also had a weak case and then said nothing of the sort about the weak case on Mt Dew Horse.

I will also say the emotionally charged ways the train was shoved felt disproportionate. Someone even brought up the potential of Great Speech slipping TMI it was so extra. Just listen to the tone here

Well really, it's just that Wine Mom decided to launch it; the rest seem to have gotten independently convinced (at least Mountain and myself), + White Square magically appeared. To understand, I think we need to look at the very end of Wine Mom's ISO to see if the progression makes sense.

HOWEVER, THAT DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK BOSUN SHOULD DIE

And its not a 1 off. I have to flat out ask- Great Speech, did you somehow have mechanical knowledge of Bosuns alignment? If not whats with the excessive emotion and why didn't your same arguments carry over to the other trains of them providing no information or being weak cases? You felt very driven to save Bosun to the point I was questioning reading through it if you were lovers until he FoS'ed you in return

[FM-Great Speech]

Why Wasteland???? The EoD votes on them are all sus af and possibly spew them as town

Im vetoing votes on Wasteland

I'm vetoing your veto. Why in the world are they spewed at all? They were a proposed counterwagon to town wagons (Bosun and Mtn Dew) that did not lift off (mostly because they were discussed far too late for them to actually be killable, but still). I don't see the town spew here.


Also, I have to go. I will try to be back for ITAs, but I can't tell for sure if I'll be there, unfortunately. @FM-Snail Streamer , please ping me with explanations regarding Wasteland being town in your opinion. I absolutely intend to shoot them if I can be there for ITAs, unless there's an actually convincing case for not doing so; I'll check your arguments before doing anything, though.

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

Perhaps worth mentioning that Pink did not like Aliens.

Yes. Very publicly and obviously. Would make them a stupid kill target for me if I was mafia.

[FM-Jiraffe]

The people tha voted them hopped off Bosun to vote Wasteland. In like, a really wolfy way.

You have Ryast that was really out of touch/not caught up, and yet entered thread to try to sell a case on Wasteland out of nowhere.

And then Purple Forest that unvoted Bosun their main sus through most of the day at EoD because they werent caught up and didnt felt like voting, to then joining a CFD ln Wasteland with little context even though Bosun was a lead wagon still? Istg Purple EoD should be considered outing and unless someone has anything clearing for them I want them dead first in ITAs

i understand that a bit actually. idk i just, also don't get what a scum would be doing with it at that time? bc if bosun was scum this makes more sense, like all of the weird defenses i felt and people's unwilligness to vote bosun (which could also be people timing the slot town tbf). i don't really know i gotta spend more time backreading bc i was kinda super hard focused on bosun and mtn dew last EoD and i was like "these slots are both town. Can we vote someone else"

[FM-Jiraffe]

I townread aliens tbh

[FM-Snail Streamer]

I'm vetoing your veto. Why in the world are they spewed at all? They were a proposed counterwagon to town wagons (Bosun and Mtn Dew) that did not lift off (mostly because they were discussed far too late for them to actually be killable, but still). I don't see the town spew here.


Also, I have to go. I will try to be back for ITAs, but I can't tell for sure if I'll be there, unfortunately. @FM-Snail Streamer , please ping me with explanations regarding Wasteland being town in your opinion. I absolutely intend to shoot them if I can be there for ITAs, unless there's an actually convincing case for not doing so; I'll check your arguments before doing anything, though.

Fuckimg read who was proposing them near EoD, it was such a scum.motivated and opportunistic wagon on a slot that was easy to question fmpov. Thats why I eant to murder Purple first to prove me right.

Their vote on Wasteland was outing

[FM-Mountain Tops]

im not seeing why purple forests EoD was bad. i kinda fuck with it heavy. towny progression throughout the day too

I could argue it's wolfy because they're not paying attention (or mentioning) Dew's wagon and are just fine vanity voting Clown
I want to check votecounts to see if that checks out though (...is there any way to do retrospective VCs here)

[FM-Jiraffe]

their opening posts were towny to me. the reasoning behind their presidential vote makes sense to me. i like them

[FM-Happy Drunk]

At work rn but I will confirm Smug Viking's claim real quick, we're both town

[FM-Jiraffe]

Fuckimg read who was proposing them near EoD, it was such a scum.motivated and opportunistic wagon on a slot that was easy to question fmpov. Thats why I eant to murder Purple first to prove me right.

Their vote on Wasteland was outing

im so confused. what do scum gain from flashwagoning a random lowposting town slot when the lead wagon is a random lowposting town slot and the cw is also town? thats what I don't get at all

[FM-Fast Fish]

Bosun put snail, fish, raincoat and myself in a night chat and we coordinated presidential votes in there. Lady being president is however also fine.

Hah, I told Snail this would happen but yeah.

[FM-Jiraffe]

bc like. ur saying that bc wasteland was flashwagoned like that they must be town and I do not see it whatsoever

[FM-Snail Streamer]

i understand that a bit actually. idk i just, also don't get what a scum would be doing with it at that time? bc if bosun was scum this makes more sense, like all of the weird defenses i felt and people's unwilligness to vote bosun (which could also be people timing the slot town tbf). i don't really know i gotta spend more time backreading bc i was kinda super hard focused on bosun and mtn dew last EoD and i was like "these slots are both town. Can we vote someone else"

Because wagons made it look bad for Bossun if they didnt get yeeted. The other two would look bad if the cfd went through, and like. At the end of the day those votes were not towny at all and I dont feel like they are paired with them.

So until Im proven wrong on Purple/Ryast I want to shield Wasteland here tbqh

[FM-Jiraffe]

At work rn but I will confirm Smug Viking's claim real quick, we're both town

someone makes a spreadsheet to track all claimed mech n stuff. I'm not about to do it but someone else should so that the people who can't follow mech (me) can still follow along

[FM-Great Speech]

On the EoD progression a few things bothered me. In particular how the 'reasoning' did not carry over to the following trains.

It was like people were shoving "The case on them is really weak" Then they tried to offset to Viking who also had a weak case and then said nothing of the sort about the weak case on Mt Dew Horse.

I will also say the emotionally charged ways the train was shoved felt disproportionate. Someone even brought up the potential of Great Speech slipping TMI it was so extra. Just listen to the tone here



And its not a 1 off. I have to flat out ask- Great Speech, did you somehow have mechanical knowledge of Bosuns alignment? If not whats with the excessive emotion and why didn't your same arguments carry over to the other trains of them providing no information or being weak cases? You felt very driven to save Bosun to the point I was questioning reading through it if you were lovers until he FoS'ed you in return

No, I did not have any mechanical knowledge of anything yesterday. Bosun was simply not scummy, and the way everyone acted towards them was NOT the way everyone acts towards scum. They literally had no resistance to a push based on THIN AIR.

It's not the same with Mtn Dew. Dew was scummy (and I stand by this: their death is partially on them, for they have failed to be towny), and was most definetly a better wagon than Bosun.

If you actually want to compare the two wagons, go look at my ISO, really. I summarized the "reasons" people had to vote Bosun (which were all literally nothing, except for Mountain Tops'). Later, I believe I said somewhere close to EoD what my reasons for voting Mtn Dew were. The two wagons were entirely different, and people reacted VERY DIFFERENTLY to both of them.

And now I'm literally going to be late because of this game XD bye

[FM-Snail Streamer]

bc like. ur saying that bc wasteland was flashwagoned like that they must be town and I do not see it whatsoever

Im saying that the flashwagon was scum motivated

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

Im more inclined to believe Drunk/Viking than not. It would be a very ballzy claim for scum to make hard paring two of them together and I do not think the hosts would allow a bastard mechanic of fake mech confirming a town to a player.

[FM-Jiraffe]

Because wagons made it look bad for Bossun if they didnt get yeeted. The other two would look bad if the cfd went through, and like. At the end of the day those votes were not towny at all and I dont feel like they are paired with them.

So until Im proven wrong on Purple/Ryast I want to shield Wasteland here tbqh

i mean to me they make a lot of sense. hell i voted wasteland before i unvoted bc i didn't wanna cause chaos so close to EoD. both wagons were town and I read them town.

i do get more of ur logic on purple in that sense tho bc bosun WAS someone they announced a hard scumread on for a majority of the day that they then like, didn't vote. but to me if we look at that from a scum perspective that makes me feel like they were almost scared of voting a town at eod, which would then implicate both wasteland & angry clown

[FM-Angry Clown]

I'm running off now, my circus needs me :o(

I'd say for ITA lists to have a group of consensus town contribute to a list together and work from there, we did something similar last year with fairly decent results - at least in ITA2.

Would put forward Viking/Drunk with their mech stuff as the starting townies in that 'council' and from there work out who best fits to create a list. That should play out well, I hope? :o)

Will try check in when I can but no promises for the first 24 hours

[FM-Jiraffe]

Im saying that the flashwagon was scum motivated

ig i just don't see how

[FM-Snail Streamer]

Also, I was in a nightchat with Wasteland, apparently they didnt make that chat so other ability allegedly put us together there

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

I think in general CFD's help scum. Scum can jump wagons without reasoning and post flip analysis is worthless because there was no reasoning or logical train. They 'can' be good for town but 'only' when an entire case has been made on a player and the players involved in the lynch have already taken positions one way or the other on it prior to the CFD.

Just doing a CFD and acting like its good for the town is really awful imo. Objectively one of the worst possible plays for EoD on D1 when the train info gives reasoning to structure night actions and the town is lacking any other mech info.

[FM-Jiraffe]

i didnt get invited to any nightchats

[FM-Dirty Harry]

After some thought we should make it a flat policy for people to claim their Pres vote with reasoning first post of the day. A few reasons-
-Prevents scum from sitting back to see what they could lie about while engaging in chat
-Catching a lie does create a PoE pool that is identifiable by tracking the votes
-Tracking the votes in itself forces scum to have to justify their votes limiting how they can use them without looking bad.
We should also always give reasoning for our votes. This gives town 1 more thing to read and hunt on with 1 more opportunity to catch a wolf in a lie. I think this is socially enforceable by players simply poking people as they post for their votes and reasoning.
(This also has the advantage of not dealing with talks about the vote hours before EoD which is just a silly waste of time distracting from what should be discussed- the lynch)

I voted for Lady of the Lake. Great Speech looked bad in their EOD interactions (more on that later) and I felt Purple Forest and Snail were more of a mixed read for the town which would make problems in leading and Mountain Top has not been as assertive. Also felt I am a bad pick given me being around at days end will very often be an issue conflicting with my IRL obligations.

I really think we should hardline force players to give reasoning. That part is critical. Just tracking the votes is ‘something’ but we would be throwing away an easy way to catch a wolf if we let that shit fly based on glancing at their vote and not getting pinged about it enough to bring up a conversation on the subject.

Lady of the lake
Same thoughts on horse even tho we were wrong
+ original thought process and wasn’t blinded by sheeping for bosun / me

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

I'm running off now, my circus needs me :o(

I'd say for ITA lists to have a group of consensus town contribute to a list together and work from there, we did something similar last year with fairly decent results - at least in ITA2.

Would put forward Viking/Drunk with their mech stuff as the starting townies in that 'council' and from there work out who best fits to create a list. That should play out well, I hope? :o)

Will try check in when I can but no promises for the first 24 hours

I would rather people individually make ITA lists (with reasoning) prior to event starting.
Consensus allows scum to influence and ITA's curve their advantage. Autonomy is best here imo.

[FM-Jiraffe]

I think in general CFD's help scum. Scum can jump wagons without reasoning and post flip analysis is worthless because there was no reasoning or logical train. They 'can' be good for town but 'only' when an entire case has been made on a player and the players involved in the lynch have already taken positions one way or the other on it prior to the CFD.

Just doing a CFD and acting like its good for the town is really awful imo. Objectively one of the worst possible plays for EoD on D1 when the train info gives reasoning to structure night actions and the town is lacking any other mech info.

i do agree. i think flashwagons generally help scum. but like, if you're scum at that juncture and the two wagons are a) a low posting town slot who's death gives practically nothing and b) a mid-high posting town slot who's death might spew a few alignments, why would you flashwagon anyone? why would you do anything? it'd be so easy to just sit on a wagon, claim u were convinced by a case, and have that low psoter go out. why bother to create *more* variance and potentially mess up wagons and have player b die when player a is practically guranteed to die

[FM-Wine Mom]

I would rather people individually make ITA lists (with reasoning) prior to event starting.
Consensus allows scum to influence and ITA's curve their advantage. Autonomy is best here imo.

Huh? This makes no sense

[FM-Aliens Are Real]

Looser!

Spoiler : spoiler :

Mee too

[FM-Dirty Harry]

As for ITAS I propose white for that shot
They haven’t really done anything and all their votes have been horribly timed/ sheep’s
Aka they don’t care who died cuz they been consistently voting top wagons whenever it switched iirc

[FM-Snail Streamer]

-vote Unvote

Im going to relook at EoD wagons because I mixed Clown and Purple vote somehow.

Like, I still think them vanity voting and ignoring their main scumread is sus af. But somewhere along the lines I mixed the votes and thought that they voted Wasteland at EoD and was coloring too much of my view

[FM-Jiraffe]

@FM-Snail Streamer
is the nightchat you had with wasteland influencing your read of them. bc i don't see it, but im assuming u prob know stuff i don't about their slot (don't share details ofc)

[FM-Dirty Harry]

I would rather people individually make ITA lists (with reasoning) prior to event starting.
Consensus allows scum to influence and ITA's curve their advantage. Autonomy is best here imo.

Isn’t it better to pick the top 3-5 concensys townies
Ask them
And do the average
Iirc that worked quite well last year