S-FM 361: Rectangle VS. Rhombus (Small-Town Mafia) (13P)

[Aeoryi]

is lawyer a new player or have they played mafia before?

i find it hard to believe that a new scum player would be gutsy enough to get in an in depth argument like this with the loudest player in the game (unless this is some convoluted S/S theatre)

I presumed they were an alt of some kind.

[The Lawyer]

-vote Phraze

[Auwt]

A part of me is questioning if my lack of understanding of their thought process is because they are new.

Rough idea of where my reads are at-

Ewianking- No killed D1, zero reason to do that as scum
Horkos- No killed D1, said something about 'think I can get away with it' which I disliked hearing 2nd hand but ehh
Gikkle - Active with origional thoughts. My top town from non mech based on their activity
Jmw- claimed prot on MM and bussed with MM. More reasonable kill target for the mafia. Very likely town if Phraze is town given mafia kill target

Auwt - Kinda blendy. Seems to be tangentially defending The Lawyer and pushing Phraze.
Superjack- Survivalist. Afk D2 after soft RVS and anti mech stuff D1. Not much to go off but oddly taking zero heat for it
Tauntshaman- Brutally absent slot.
Phraze - The one people keep shoving to the point I feel like scum want them dead. Their bus choice is odd. Doc with a town read lookout? Why wouldent it be like, BP survivor with either of those...

PowerofDeath- Im uncomfortable. Feel like they are pushing opportunistically but also feel like if they rolled scum the game is just lost so actively avoiding even thinking about it.
Aeroyi - Disliked the slow reveal and claimed the same action as JMW. Felt like they were waiting for BD to reveal which made me feel if they are scum BD may not be. Self resolving but I am easily leaning scum
The Lawyer - Odd positions. Pulling teeth to get explanations from. Certainly playstyle clash with me but I do have trouble with a handful of their moves.

I'm sorry, while I agree I brought some argument in favor of Lawyer, I don't recall having pushed or even interacted at the slightest with Phraze.

[Auwt]

Correct me, but finding Phraze alignment could confirm jmw (if Phraze is town then jmw was targetted by scum last night).
Then next night, if Aeroyi does not protect jmw, that means Aeroyi is scum.

The only bad aspect of that plan is that scums could possibly win by this EOD if PoD is scum.

[powerofdeath]

well once again we have to rely on jailor

[powerofdeath]

Correct me, but finding Phraze alignment could confirm jmw (if Phraze is town then jmw was targetted by scum last night).
Then next night, if Aeroyi does not protect jmw, that means Aeroyi is scum.

The only bad aspect of that plan is that scums could possibly win by this EOD if PoD is scum.

is there a reason why ur not voting?

[oliverz144]

Day 2 has ended.

[oliverz144]

Final Votecount Day 2
The Lawyer (3):
Helz, ewianking, Aeoryi
Phraze (5):
powerofdeath, jmw, Gikkle, The Lawyer
There was no execution. Night 2 has begun and will end in 23h and 3 minutes on Sunday the 9th at 4PM Washington DC.

[oliverz144]

Night 2 has ended.
powerofdeath died.
Phraze died.

[oliverz144]

Day 3 begins.
Day 3 will end in 47h and 49 mins, Tuesday the 11th, at 4PM Washington DC.
value

[Helz]

Thats interesting. My paranoia was not great.

I can confirm JMW visited Horkos last night. Something I poked at but did not outright mention is that Escort does not block day actions so I got to take Lookout. A part of me was trying to get The Lawyer to admit they had asked host about mechanics to justify their position and I would catch them in a lie. Small trap but they never responded to what I asked there.

Woulda withheld my action but JMW is effectively confirmed now.

I will also say I was in a networker chat.

[Stellaria]

I can confirm Helz was in network chat with me. While I was asleep, I was asked if my slot submitted any night actions on Night 1. The answer is no.

At the very least, when I joined the game, I got my role and I was provided access to the network chat but I didn't get any feedback for any action on Night 1 so I believe there was none submitted.

[Horkos]

I can confirm Helz was in network chat with me. While I was asleep, I was asked if my slot submitted any night actions on Night 1. The answer is no.

At the very least, when I joined the game, I got my role and I was provided access to the network chat but I didn't get any feedback for any action on Night 1 so I believe there was none submitted.

What about night 2 action ?

I jailed and executed phrase.

[Stellaria]

What about night 2 action ?

I jailed and executed phrase.

I did do an action last night, yes

Nice hit

[Helz]

I did do an action last night, yes

Nice hit

Given BD could not have swapped theres no confusion on your result. If your holding it under your hat to fish for leads keep in mind the town does not have a great track record for activity although we do have a mostly confirmed jailor and doc which buys us night options.

[Horkos]

I did do an action last night, yes

Nice hit

we know you are sheriff , you have no reason to hide the result of your action.

If you didnt check Helz i suggest you do it asap even if you will probably die n3 , i think we should take out Helz after n3 unless you can confirm that he is town

[Horkos]

we know you are sheriff , you have no reason to hide the result of your action.

If you didnt check Helz i suggest you do it asap even if you will probably die n3 , i think we should take out Helz after n3 unless you can confirm that he is town

wait nvm if he is scum he can bus to avoid redirect your action

[Helz]

wait nvm if he is scum he can bus to avoid redirect your action

Planning night actions could only work if you trust me. Even if Stellaria says they did you would still have to question if you also believed they were town. That bit of the situation is a mess.

If you do trust me though I have no intention in taking on the BD role as things stand now. Town Jailor, Doc and Lookout + decent potential of Town Vigi and a BG existing holds more value imo than BD. Without going paranoid consider why I would have been watching who visited you last night.

I will also say its not the Phraze kill that verifys JMW. Its that I watched them. There is no reason to believe Phraze was honest on her swaps and even when she first claimed I believe I mentioned WIFOM potentials. We can even reason that was almost certainly a lie (unless mafia had a communication breakdown) given it would just make very basic sense to swap the survivor with the lookout and kill on the survivor if they were dodging Lookout, Doc, BG.

I also specifically claimed quickly so it would be seen prior to JMW claiming. Afterwards would have lost its value imo.

[Helz]

To kill the ambiguity I did mean Town Vigi and 'a' BG. I would actually scum lean their slot but consider it self resolving and not worth the risk to sort. Either their protecting and gona pop off like a champ, be killed by mafia, or simply sit around until its too unlikely they but did not get a kill and were not targeted by Mafia so they die.

[Stellaria]

I didnt realize everyone already knew my role. Sorry

JMW is good

[Horkos]

The Lawyer (3):
Helz, ewianking, Aeoryi

I wont forget that , atm if we want to check you assuming we trust the sheriff over you we can send the lawyer to rb you

[The Lawyer]

The Lawyer (3):
Helz, ewianking, Aeoryi

I wont forget that , atm if we want to check you assuming we trust the sheriff over you we can send the lawyer to rb you

I want to see a bit more from the sheriff before we trust them

Why do you think PoD was killed?

Btw. I can easily see 1 or 2 scums on my wagon.

[Stellaria]

i feel so stupid, i didn't even realize everyone's character roles were right there in the op

well, obvious who i am so i will not say who i target before i target them

[Helz]

The Lawyer (3):
Helz, ewianking, Aeoryi

I wont forget that , atm if we want to check you assuming we trust the sheriff over you we can send the lawyer to rb you

Sounds very wasteful and like you would be trying to dictate night actions in a setup with all roles known. Thats quite dangerous. We should use the time today to actually scum hunt rather than plot out actions. Especially this early in the day.

I still absolutely think I was right that The Lawyers reasoning was inconstant. Its just a question of if that is because they did not actually think things out and explained themselves poorly when they bothered to answer questions as a townie; or if they were scum that made up a night action and got called out for how little sense it made and ran from explaining.

As plainly as I can say it the absolute worst thing this town could do is to turn their brains off and just focus on night actions blowing off a 3rd day in a row. Its now D3 and we have basically have a flip with next to no posts and a very weak case when they were even voted, and a counter train that was built on inconstant justification of a night action.

If your confirmed town I believe the best thing you could do is to pressure people to hunt and participate in day chat.

[Helz]

i feel so stupid, i didn't even realize everyone's character roles were right there in the op

well, obvious who i am so i will not say who i target before i target them

With that in mind may want to re-read some of what I said in our other chat.

Btw, Asked the host if it cuts off at nights end or follows though until days end. Could be slightly useful for WIFOM games if you follow my thinking.

[Stellaria]

yeah makes a lot more sense to me now. 9 pages and it being a couple of nights in is really surprising to me. i can't promise that I'll have the best takes but I'll do my best to formulate my own opinions from here on out

starting with my thoughts on you; I kind of like what you said about phraze in network chat and im following you on Horkos. I'll have to look into whatyou said about Lawyer

I don't get good feeling about SuperJack

[Stellaria]

I like the way MM responded to your mech stuff

[Stellaria]

man Im conflicted on how I feel about Lawyer

a) There's something townie in them promising in their 1st post that theyre studying on the roles, then roleblocking you and lamenting over it for not understanding your role. I feel like if they were scum they'd ask their teammates about it
b) with as little that has happened as we have to look back on, I get the feeling that they seem a bit hyperaware of what MM thinks of their slot. And I don't like their interaction with SuperJack. But I dont know if this is because I like MM and dislike SuperJack or if there's something actually there

[Helz]

Was there anything in particular that pinged you about SuperJack?

I largely felt he did some very basic RVS stuff, pushed against my mech talk and vanished. One of my problems was how little attention he has gotten from pretty much anywhere. I do need to go back through the thread tomorrow so I am not just speaking from memory.

[Auwt]

Considering where we currently are I'll hand my trust to Horkos and Lawyer. They are both 99% confirmed town in my book.

I would recommend watching Aeroyi, but I'm also open to vote others.

[Stellaria]

Was there anything in particular that pinged you about SuperJack?

I largely felt he did some very basic RVS stuff, pushed against my mech talk and vanished. One of my problems was how little attention he has gotten from pretty much anywhere. I do need to go back through the thread tomorrow so I am not just speaking from memory.

it's not that Jack made a post that I looked at and knew he was scum, it was moreso Phraze's insistence on (basically non-)voting for him first and then you that pinged me as awfully strange.

[Stellaria]

You could see in #72 that Phraze intended to vote for SuperJack and you in the same post. It seems intended to read as a progression of thought or something but then after figuring out how voting works, they go on to vote for you both again, but in individual posts. Knowing Phraze is evil, gut feeling tells me that Jack is their teammate and they're trying to open up with the idea that they'd be willing to vote for Jack while hiding it behind a vote for you, which must've been convenient since a lot of the early talk seemed to revolve around you

[Auwt]

Also Helz role is dangerous considering he could willingly mess things up as BD.
If Helz manages to live through that EOD, I'd recommend toleblocking him.

[Helz]

You could see in #72 that Phraze intended to vote for SuperJack and you in the same post. It seems intended to read as a progression of thought or something but then after figuring out how voting works, they go on to vote for you both again, but in individual posts. Knowing Phraze is evil, gut feeling tells me that Jack is their teammate and they're trying to open up with the idea that they'd be willing to vote for Jack while hiding it behind a vote for you, which must've been convenient since a lot of the early talk seemed to revolve around you

I could certainly see that line of thinking. One thing on Phraze that I noted was how they claimed their action to shade JMW. It looks like they took pressure and gave consideration to how their claimed action would be viewed post flip. It would be fitting for them to have the same consideration in their vote patterns even if they were not super active or high effort. In hindsight it also reflects why their claimed action felt odd, it was simply antispew there.

I am curious- Why did you choose JMW to check?

[Stellaria]

So, because he is the Gravedigger and the Bus Driver is dead, that makes him dangerous and he needs to die? Hard disagree. You should do more to read his slot and not so much rely on mech

[Stellaria]

pretty much only because he was one of the other people in the network chat and I didn't read anything else lol

[Helz]

Also Helz role is dangerous considering he could willingly mess things up as BD.
If Helz manages to live through that EOD, I'd recommend toleblocking him.

There is a few problems there. To go down that road your basically going to need to permanently obligate PRs. So say you put it on The Lawyer- You don't know their alignment. Or say you just have the Jailor hold me 1 night while the sheriff checks- You don't know the Sheriffs alignment until they hard peg a scum.

Also if I did take BD it can easily be identified. Doc heals a target and it still dies obviously we know exactly what happened. This makes BD much less useful for me if I was mafia and basically relegates it to playing with fire. Vigi shots, BG protects, Doc heals- All of those would quickly out a BD swap. That said- BD is not functionally as much of a risk as you think.

And Mafia has zero reason to take lookout. The fact I did today and was able to call the doc's target out (he has yet to confirm but he will) shows I both did and went out of my way to confirm a town. Why would I do that as mafia when I could instead try to shade him as scum with Phrazes odd action claim.

Quite simply, leashing me is not an option. Town does it your potentially throwing away 2 useful night actions over and over so it just makes sense to sort me in chat and either kill me if you think I am scum or trust me. I really feel like I should not be that difficult to solve with the amount of content I have put into this game.

[Helz]

Also this occurred to me

@Stellaria , @Horkos

I believe the jailor should call his jail target in day chat and you two should be on the same page. Its unavoidable and Mafia knowing that piece in advance risks nothing. But the sheriff knowing in advance removes the potential of a waisted sheriff check on an executed target.

[Stellaria]

Don't know if I agree since then Mafia would have one less protect to worry about hitting through

[Helz]

Don't know if I agree since then Mafia would have one less protect to worry about hitting through

Jailing does not protect in this game. But I do like that you caught that.

[Helz]

Action list.JPG

Updated claims list.

2 thinks popped in my head while doing it.

1- Gikkle chose not to include themselves in the chat and instead to pick 4 other people. Kinda surprised me although I have not drawn a conclusion on what that means yet. Will have to ask em about it when they pop in.
2- I had The Lawyer and Phraze marked as unaligned yesterday. Worth digging into that specifically

[jmw]

testing, is posting working now

[jmw]

No idea if this is the same issue Helz has but I was unable to post anything last night as I would hit post and it would just load forever. Seems like it's good now though.

Thats interesting. My paranoia was not great.

I can confirm JMW visited Horkos last night. Something I poked at but did not outright mention is that Escort does not block day actions so I got to take Lookout. A part of me was trying to get The Lawyer to admit they had asked host about mechanics to justify their position and I would catch them in a lie. Small trap but they never responded to what I asked there.

Woulda withheld my action but JMW is effectively confirmed now.

I will also say I was in a networker chat.

I can confirm, I healed Horkos last night, I think given the state of the game we really need them for executions
I don't know if Phraze actually swapped me with MM or they swapped someone else but its all WIFOM and doesnt really matter, id also ignore it and not use it to read me, whoever they picked was probably just someone they thought no protectives would be on.

I actually would like to hear what Ewian did last night if he hasn't posted it already.

[jmw]

Ok Helz brought up the Phraze thing anyway, beaten to the punch lol.

I didnt realize everyone already knew my role. Sorry

JMW is good

Interesting, can I ask why you chose to check me last night? (I know MM is tossing in the grave rn but I don't want to explain why I'm asking until I here the answer)

[Helz]

They open up pushing a case on both me and Phraze hitting on things like how odd Phraze initial vote was immediately calling it bussing and disliking my viewing ignorance of roles revealed as a potential town slip.

Then analysis on motives for killing MM being MM had a good feeling/Vote on Phraze.

Pushes against my reasoning that BG is just bad to consider D1 viewing it as being for no reason at all

Draws more attention to MM voting Phraze

Then flatly says they should be lynched followed by a vote

Argues against my reasoning for a ignorance having a lean

Directly calls out Phraze excuse of saying they are seen as scummy.

Ends the day pushing that when they flip town Phraze should absolutely be lynched next.

Spoiler : The Lawyer Quotes :

Post #211

I don't like how Helz is defending Phraze in his reads. Saying that Phraze didn't know that roles were outed and therefore shouldnt be lynched yet. Also tries to clear him for mechanical reasons. This looks like Helz is a power wolf trying to clear his teammate.

Phraze #75 : shows up D1, votes SuperJack but then votes Helz and leaves his vote there. Weird. This is probably him trying to distance from Helz.

#166 MM voted Phraze. I think MM had a good feeling about Phraze. That is probably one of the reasons why MM is dead now.

#175 Helz townreads Aeroyi for no reason at all. Says he doesnt want to waste a lynch on him. Suspicios, especially when we consider the fact that Helz has no problem with lynching me because of my low activity and contribution. I admit that my low activity and contribution D1 probably doesnt make me look good, but Phraze isn't any better than me in this respect, so I see defending Phraze while wanting to lynch me as hypocritical.

MM voted Phraze D1. Post #166. Do you have any thoughts on that? What do you think about Phraze?

Yeah Phraze survived D1 but should be lynched D2.

-vote Phraze

You say that faking ignorance would be a calculating play that doesn't match the effort they have put into D1.

How would you know whether Phraze is faking ignorance or not? Faking ignorance is not that hard to do when you play scum. So this is definitely not something that he should be cleared for.

Also you said that Phraze would be actively participating in chat. This, again, is something that you can't really assume. You make such invalid arguments and people just believe you and let it be without questioning. I am not happy with this. I'm a bit disappointed with town because they all just blindly believe your arguments, probably because it looks like you're helping town with your talk on mechanics, while you're actually just confusing them with it.

I believe you, but that's still a not that great excuse.

I could say the same thing about myself. I'm always scummy af and probably look even scummier as town than as scum.

Does this mean that people should townread me every game? No.

Does everyone at least believe that when I flip town, Phraze should be the next lynch?

This looks pretty damn good. They walk in with original takes having done things like hunted why MM would have been targeted, noticed 2 things they saw as odd between myself and Phraze, a mix of misunderstood and disagreed with some of my takes and just shoved Phraze while attacking any defense of them for the entire day.

That certainly does not look like bussing to me.

[jmw]

Action list.JPG

Updated claims list.

2 thinks popped in my head while doing it.

1- Gikkle chose not to include themselves in the chat and instead to pick 4 other people. Kinda surprised me although I have not drawn a conclusion on what that means yet. Will have to ask em about it when they pop in.
2- I had The Lawyer and Phraze marked as unaligned yesterday. Worth digging into that specifically

I cant access that image for some reason.


Also based purely on dayplay I think Auwt and Superjack seem like wolves. I'd like to hear more from them if they have time. Same with Gikkle if we want to reveal the full networker chat and go over why it was chosen.

[Helz]

No idea if this is the same issue Helz has but I was unable to post anything last night as I would hit post and it would just load forever. Seems like it's good now though.

So 'kinda' game related-

Spoiler : Stuff on server issues :

I did poke some people on the issue specifically saying if this was my first game on this site I would not come back with these server issues. They said the server is migrating so that is what it is.
I did find that sometimes the outages affect only specific networks so a time or three I have just used a proxi and gotten around the problem but its also hard down a good bit. Use to be around 3am ish the site would go down for 15 mins or something each day as the server restarted as well.

[Helz]

I cant access that image for some reason.


Also based purely on dayplay I think Auwt and Superjack seem like wolves. I'd like to hear more from them if they have time. Same with Gikkle if we want to reveal the full networker chat and go over why it was chosen.

https://ibb.co/1YtdGLJH

I have just been updating an excel sheet on actions and some data to keep everything easy to reference

[The Lawyer]

I don't find SuperJack scummy but they haven’t done anything to deserve a town read either. I need to see more from them.

@SuperJack you need to show up and start playing.

[Helz]

I can confirm, I healed Horkos last night, I think given the state of the game we really need them for executions
I don't know if Phraze actually swapped me with MM or they swapped someone else but its all WIFOM and doesnt really matter, id also ignore it and not use it to read me, whoever they picked was probably just someone they thought no protectives would be on.

I actually would like to hear what Ewian did last night if he hasn't posted it already.

I would absolutely agree. Horkos is towns most important role even if we start lynching.

For Ewianking I did consider the insane world where they CC Horkos and Horkos faked the execution with a snap decision seeing the flip and making the claim but I do not think its possible. Horkos woulda jailed someone else regardless even if they were scum who did not feel they could justify killing POD N1 so its just not in reality.

Im assuming Ewianking has just been holstering. Pretty much has to be exactly that or there was a double kill on 1 player. I was personally pretty paranoid on POD but I basically drew the conclusion if he is Mafia mayor I am just ok with taking the loss so I would not obsess over it.