S-FM 355: Nonstandard Roles 3

[oliverz144]

Oliver can easily be a wolf though.
It is optimally the best play to remove all but the 2 Protectives and 2 Same Alignment Checks.

if you lynch me i kill Dark magician

easy as that

[oliverz144]

his unkillable a$$

[oliverz144]

If we come up with a near total mechanical crunch I will get behind this and push for it. Otherwise I really do townread Oliver and would put him very low in the PoE for elimination.

Would rather have him vengeful target and have our ghost push an evil teacher paring on him after a side lynch without looking at the numbers. Haven’t really dug into it and I’m half in drunk mode now but that feels more optimal than a lynch especially if I set up a if/then scenario.

I have only been wrong about very small details in this game so far and I think our ghost will follow my lead.

yeah i like that
i dont wanna get lynched

[powerofdeath]

Closed thread, please stand by.

[powerofdeath]

Both Mafia players and Evil Teacher conceded the game to Town. Unfortunately going over the scenarios, I also deem it impossible for the Wild Card to win either. Helz/Martin was wild and it would be too hard for just those two to be last two alive.













Congratulations to Town and Ghost for achieving Victory!

Player List:
1. Marshmallow Marshall - Sapling
2. Mizery - Evil Teacher
3. Cape90 - Evil Flower Child
4. MartinGG99 - Soul Mate
5. Scumbot5679 - Evil Cat Lady
6. Auwt - Door Salesman
7. Luka - Janitor
8. bakermir - Teacher
9. Helz - Bride
10. Dark Magician - Sapling
11. oliverz144 - Vengeful
12. Huo Huo and Mr Tail - Grave Robber
13. lilypetal - Sapling
14. bwcPorscha - Wild Card
15. Varcron - Ghost

Final Thoughts:

I want to say this: I had all three factions telling me repeatedly that this was too townsided(from scums) or too scumsided(from town). I went over this setup with Lumi for around 2 hours to make sure that it is balanced as possible. Lumi preferred this to be 3v10v2. I ultimately went with 3v9v3.

Reasons why Mafia lost: Despite being generally townread, they lost due to mechs. They were horrible with their night actions. Their mafia chat was the most inactive I’ve seen and I’ve hosted a few times. Barely any thoughts go into their roles and communication with each others. I would also say this: They were also very unlucky Night 1.
They used Janitor that night, but mafia kill hit Mizery who was immune. Mizery failed to kill two people. And the lynch also failed because of Evil Flower Child. What potentially was 4 people being cleaned, resulted in 0.
Reason Evil Teacher lost: They were scumread quite early, which resulted in a red check from 2 players and ghost immediately figuring them out. Killing Ghost was quite bad for them.
Reason why Wild Card Lost: The bounty on Helz was smart on their part, but they shouldve claimed during Day 3 24 hours before being lynched, but I think they mentioned they wanted to wait until day 4 to step in. Well it was too late as they got lynched last second, which was quite surprising to me.

Reasons town won: They got a lot of help from neutrals. Ghost controlling the neutral killer, Wild Card giving town’s IC night immunity. I feel like if things gone slightly different with night actions, town wouldve potentially lost due to mislynching on Baker, Dark Magician killing themselves. Ever since DM became a tree, town was always 1 mislynch away from losing majority. Lynching Wild Card and ghost killing Mafia instead of town helped.

I know this game might be mixed feeling for some of you. Some of you had a blast, others was very frustrated and I apologize. This was fun to host and thank you all for playing! I will be giving you all access to Spec/Spoilers chat soon.

What I wouldve done this differently: Make it less reliant on roles and more on reads.

[Mizery]

Yeah "evil teacher lost because they got scumread and then hit ghost"

Literally shut up

[MartinGG99]

Yeah, the night actions really just decided the game for the most part. Not the balancing/role distribution IMO.

Very interesting to know that 4 cleanings were prevented though LOL. Poor mafia.

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

@bakermir Vengeance complete :3

[MartinGG99]

I do think that Ghost is perhaps not a fun role to play against as neutral though. That probably should've been considered for longer. You can't shut down a whole mafia or town team as ghost. But you can shut down a whole neutral faction which just seems unfair.

[powerofdeath]

I do think that Ghost is perhaps not a fun role to play against as neutral though. That probably should've been considered for longer. You can't shut down a whole mafia or town team as ghost. But you can shut down a whole neutral faction which just seems unfair.

Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of roles working in a way I didnt expect for them to work that way this game. Not just ghost.

[MartinGG99]

Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of roles working in a way I didnt expect for them to work that way this game. Not just ghost.

Yeah. Also to be clear I'm not blaming just you, part of the blame lies on myself as well. I had a fair hand in scrutinizing each of the roles (in setup review) and I feel like I should've spotted that about the ghost thing. But, as you say, hindsight is 20/20.

[MartinGG99]

@oliverz144

idk if you're planning to stick around but if I happen to be running a setup again in the future you should be free to join it

I can't even remember how long its been the way where I wasn't having you in my games, but its been long enough and you seemed to be genuinely engaged playing this and I really appreciate that

[powerofdeath]

Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of roles working in a way I didnt expect for them to work that way this game. Not just ghost.

This include bounty hunter being impossible to win unless it was on Lylo. Werewolves with Deathproof Trees, etc.

[MartinGG99]

Honestly maybe it wouldn't be so bad that, if we make another "nonstandard roles" setup, that in the first run of it we make it clear that its a trial run or whatever. Its much easier to find mistakes and potential issues when running a game than when its on the whiteboard and hasn't been run yet. Having people be mindful of it not being fully tested might make for a better experience.

Just a thought I'm throwing out there.

[Luka]

Both Mafia players and Evil Teacher conceded the game to Town. Unfortunately going over the scenarios, I also deem it impossible for the Wild Card to win either. Helz/Martin was wild and it would be too hard for just those two to be last two alive.













Congratulations to Town and Ghost for achieving Victory!

Player List:
1. Marshmallow Marshall - Sapling
2. Mizery - Evil Teacher
3. Cape90 - Evil Flower Child
4. MartinGG99 - Soul Mate
5. Scumbot5679 - Evil Cat Lady
6. Auwt - Door Salesman
7. Luka - Janitor
8. bakermir - Teacher
9. Helz - Bride
10. Dark Magician - Sapling
11. oliverz144 - Vengeful
12. Huo Huo and Mr Tail - Grave Robber
13. lilypetal - Sapling
14. bwcPorscha - Wild Card
15. Varcron - Ghost

Final Thoughts:

I want to say this: I had all three factions telling me repeatedly that this was too townsided(from scums) or too scumsided(from town). I went over this setup with Lumi for around 2 hours to make sure that it is balanced as possible. Lumi preferred this to be 3v10v2. I ultimately went with 3v9v3.

Reasons why Mafia lost: Despite being generally townread, they lost due to mechs. They were horrible with their night actions. Their mafia chat was the most inactive I’ve seen and I’ve hosted a few times. Barely any thoughts go into their roles and communication with each others. I would also say this: They were also very unlucky Night 1.
They used Janitor that night, but mafia kill hit Mizery who was immune. Mizery failed to kill two people. And the lynch also failed because of Evil Flower Child. What potentially was 4 people being cleaned, resulted in 0.
Reason Evil Teacher lost: They were scumread quite early, which resulted in a red check from 2 players and ghost immediately figuring them out. Killing Ghost was quite bad for them.
Reason why Wild Card Lost: The bounty on Helz was smart on their part, but they shouldve claimed during Day 3 24 hours before being lynched, but I think they mentioned they wanted to wait until day 4 to step in. Well it was too late as they got lynched last second, which was quite surprising to me.

Reasons town won: They got a lot of help from neutrals. Ghost controlling the neutral killer, Wild Card giving town’s IC night immunity. I feel like if things gone slightly different with night actions, town wouldve potentially lost due to mislynching on Baker, Dark Magician killing themselves. Ever since DM became a tree, town was always 1 mislynch away from losing majority. Lynching Wild Card and ghost killing Mafia instead of town helped.

I know this game might be mixed feeling for some of you. Some of you had a blast, others was very frustrated and I apologize. This was fun to host and thank you all for playing! I will be giving you all access to Spec/Spoilers chat soon.

What I wouldve done this differently: Make it less reliant on roles and more on reads.

If anybody is saying this setup is to s!sided they haven’t read the roles

[powerofdeath]

If anybody is saying this setup is to s!sided they haven’t read the roles

Honestly town mislynched once, and they’ve been on Mylo everyday.

Not exactly mylo but one more wouldve resulted in them being outnumbered.

[oliverz144]

Both Mafia players and Evil Teacher conceded the game to Town. Unfortunately going over the scenarios, I also deem it impossible for the Wild Card to win either. Helz/Martin was wild and it would be too hard for just those two to be last two alive.













Congratulations to Town and Ghost for achieving Victory!

Player List:
1. Marshmallow Marshall - Sapling
2. Mizery - Evil Teacher
3. Cape90 - Evil Flower Child
4. MartinGG99 - Soul Mate
5. Scumbot5679 - Evil Cat Lady
6. Auwt - Door Salesman
7. Luka - Janitor
8. bakermir - Teacher
9. Helz - Bride
10. Dark Magician - Sapling
11. oliverz144 - Vengeful
12. Huo Huo and Mr Tail - Grave Robber
13. lilypetal - Sapling
14. bwcPorscha - Wild Card
15. Varcron - Ghost

Final Thoughts:

I want to say this: I had all three factions telling me repeatedly that this was too townsided(from scums) or too scumsided(from town). I went over this setup with Lumi for around 2 hours to make sure that it is balanced as possible. Lumi preferred this to be 3v10v2. I ultimately went with 3v9v3.

Reasons why Mafia lost: Despite being generally townread, they lost due to mechs. They were horrible with their night actions. Their mafia chat was the most inactive I’ve seen and I’ve hosted a few times. Barely any thoughts go into their roles and communication with each others. I would also say this: They were also very unlucky Night 1.
They used Janitor that night, but mafia kill hit Mizery who was immune. Mizery failed to kill two people. And the lynch also failed because of Evil Flower Child. What potentially was 4 people being cleaned, resulted in 0.
Reason Evil Teacher lost: They were scumread quite early, which resulted in a red check from 2 players and ghost immediately figuring them out. Killing Ghost was quite bad for them.
Reason why Wild Card Lost: The bounty on Helz was smart on their part, but they shouldve claimed during Day 3 24 hours before being lynched, but I think they mentioned they wanted to wait until day 4 to step in. Well it was too late as they got lynched last second, which was quite surprising to me.

Reasons town won: They got a lot of help from neutrals. Ghost controlling the neutral killer, Wild Card giving town’s IC night immunity. I feel like if things gone slightly different with night actions, town wouldve potentially lost due to mislynching on Baker, Dark Magician killing themselves. Ever since DM became a tree, town was always 1 mislynch away from losing majority. Lynching Wild Card and ghost killing Mafia instead of town helped.

I know this game might be mixed feeling for some of you. Some of you had a blast, others was very frustrated and I apologize. This was fun to host and thank you all for playing! I will be giving you all access to Spec/Spoilers chat soon.

What I wouldve done this differently: Make it less reliant on roles and more on reads.

GG!

[oliverz144]

@oliverz144

idk if you're planning to stick around but if I happen to be running a setup again in the future you should be free to join it

I can't even remember how long its been the way where I wasn't having you in my games, but its been long enough and you seemed to be genuinely engaged playing this and I really appreciate that

Thank you. Im glad i am no longer a negative impact <3.

Im happy to play sometime again! Lets see what the future brings!

[bakermir]

@bakermir Vengeance complete :3

Arigato gozaimasu!!!

[oliverz144]

Arigato gozaimasu!!!

Hey, im sorry for D1, i kinda was really in a "gotcha" moment, and you didnt really fight back...

[bakermir]

Hey, im sorry for D1, i kinda was really in a "gotcha" moment, and you didnt really fight back...

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

something something bible verse name number

[Dark Magician]

MIZERY WILL BE MY FRIEND FOREVER
MAWHAHAHA!

[Dark Magician]

Yeah "evil teacher lost because they got scumread and then hit ghost"

Literally shut up

Yeah it was more like:
Mizery was caught wrongly as they were paired with a mafia and they weren’t even mafia.
Unlucky.
Then they hit Ghost.
Unlucky.

It happens friend, there are games that are like that, the best thing to do is just look forward to the next game that’ll be better.
Again, I am sorry if I upset you this game and that I was way too hard on you being the mafia when you weren’t.

[Dark Magician]

If anybody is saying this setup is to s!sided they haven’t read the roles

It’s scum sided due to there being 3 Saplings which are arguably bad roles for toen.

[scumbot5679]

I think a decent rule of thumb is mountainous is scumsided while role madness is townsided so the goal is to put it somewhere in between. Balance is subjective but I believe that role madness can rarely be balanced simply b/c town has a disproportionate amount of power. In this game, scum had a 1x janitor which isn't super helpful in a way, a conditional roleblock/rolecop (and I don't even get to decide how it's used), and a delayed lynch.

I also think open/semi-open setups are town sided as well. Even though "montianess is scumsided" I can certainly understand that it's still winable by town. I've long postulated mafia (this game) is just "pro-town" since giving town a majority is somewhat hard to overcome. I mean certainly, if the town is full of new/bad players scum could walk all over them but I think most town are fairly competent so a simple majority is just not favorable for scum.

Part of me didn't want to say anything since it might be kinda rude but it got brought up and so I want to adress it. I feel like the lack of scum talk wasn't really my fault. I came in n1 and asked who they wanted to kill and then no one talked about it and luka and cape just weren't participating so I just sort of gave up. Maybe thats bad leadership on my part and I should have just relentlessly tried to get them to talk about who we should kill and who to cat etc.

We did get pretty unlucky with the n1 no kill so I think you are probs right that scum lost mostly to mechanics/bad luck but we didn't utilize one of our biggest strengths: that being planning and strategizing. Had we, I'm not sure if it would have put us over the edge or anything but if we had made better use of our actions if might have felt closer at least.

I think that teacher/backup (though the backup getting the teach role was mostly luck)/soul mate combo just made it a follow the cop game.

[scumbot5679]

One other thing that I've noticed that has become more prevalent through the years are "3rd parties" that can win with town and other 3p like a sk...they just almost always "townside" so I think thats just further stacking the deck for town.

[scumbot5679]

I did wonder if we just keep try harding Luka could have maybe slipped by but the odds were prob against him at that point.

[scumbot5679]

It’s scum sided due to there being 3 Saplings which are arguably bad roles for toen.

maybe but no one is forcing them to become deathproof. They are only "bad" if you guys mass tree'd so I think I sorta agree with POD when he says that saplings are kinda like vts. My sense of "balance" is if we are equating saplings to vts there'd be 5 (or 6 in lumis setup) but I think the chance that town just mass tree would have been slim to begin with. I think POD and Martin would say that the reason that there were only 3 "vts" is b/c they were balancing the 3rd parties and I guess, I'm not suggesting that im a mechanic pro or anything and as I said b4, "balance is subjective".

no way this was scum sided set up though. You could maybe argue it wasn't as townsided as I feel it was or that I'm just being salty that I lost but I legit don't think you could objectively say this was balanced though I guess its possible that I could just be looking at it from the POV of role madness and open/semi open setups being town sided (and yeah there prob is a trickle od salt)

[powerofdeath]

In a world where youre trying to get a "33% chance of mafia win, 33% chance of evil teacher win, and 33% chance of town win" setup, its gonna feel like every factions is in a losing position from their perspective.

If everyone join the game where they all have 33% chance to win, then everyone will say "thats not fair", but it is balanced.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I do think that Ghost is perhaps not a fun role to play against as neutral though. That probably should've been considered for longer. You can't shut down a whole mafia or town team as ghost. But you can shut down a whole neutral faction which just seems unfair.

Yeaaaaah, we should've picked up on the fact ghost haunting an evil neutral forever might not be super fun lol... sorry for that. That said, I still had a ton of fun ^^ I hope everyone did as well; the game looks like it was mostly enjoyed, except for that kinda sad ending.

Also, I'm a little disappointed that literally the entire scum team was as simple as LITERALLY ALL THE LURKERS (minus Lily). That's quite rare lol.

[Varcron]

Yeaaaaah, we should've picked up on the fact ghost haunting an evil neutral forever might not be super fun lol... sorry for that. That said, I still had a ton of fun ^^ I hope everyone did as well; the game looks like it was mostly enjoyed, except for that kinda sad ending.

Also, I'm a little disappointed that literally the entire scum team was as simple as LITERALLY ALL THE LURKERS (minus Lily). That's quite rare lol.

I think that was just an unfortunate situation that in reality wouldn't happen in 90% of games if not more. We just happened to get the version where it did.

[Varcron]

Overall though I enjoyed this game, had quite a few new refreshing mechanics I haven't seen in a bit so thanks for hosting it!

[MartinGG99]

Might as well re-post from the discord into here:

Hey all! We currently don't have any approved games in the queue, so if anybody was thinking of hosting anything let me know. Otherwise, in about a week or two I'll end up making my own signups for something. Not sure what it'll be, so if you have any specific desires for a certain kind of game let me know, but I will have something figured out by then.

[bakermir]

idk who to propose for the MVP. its very close..


@Huo Huo and Mr Tail
Rem you made the game very enjoyable. impressive leadership this game. btw well done on bamboozling me and bad witch chick.. we were pulling our hairs!!


@Varcron well done good sir, your death and decisions kept town moving forward to victory. you baited the kill and if that didn't happen you would probably get voted out so wpwp


@Luka i really liked how you snowed people this time, well played good sir. i don't know what happened in mafia chat but the poor decision on nightkills is what costed you the game.


@scumbot5679 your early wolf game improved a lot since your last game. i think you voting oliver later in the game was the similar open wolfing mistake you displayed on our previous game. as for what you posted earlier, randing wolf requires a lot of effort when it comes to organization of things. this is something I force when playing on MU, i refuse to join discord and instead i would request my team to post on the private thread. this is partially a discord issue but yeah it is still manageable, if no one is posting/responding on discord and you have no private thread available then dont be afraid of taking the ropes


@Mizery unlucky wcyd


@Dark Magician you were almost perfect with reading people correctly and I wouldn't expect any less of you. it is classic DM. only problem was you using your sapling right away. that could have costed town the game as it brings mafia one more step closer to victory. try not to panic when people don't listen to you, trust me people might look like they don't pay attention to you, but in reality they do. it is just, people need time and confidence before making a move. they might also have reasons to hide their intentions and that is NAI, it is more related to the rolecard they receive. I hope you keep that as a reminder in future games




gg wp to everyone else. it was super fun to watch you guys play especially martin helz and mm all randing town







p.s @Lilypetal goated

[bakermir]

Overall though I enjoyed this game, had quite a few new refreshing mechanics I haven't seen in a bit so thanks for hosting it!

seconded. great ideas @powerofdeath ty for the game

[Helz]

This include bounty hunter being impossible to win unless it was on Lylo. Werewolves with Deathproof Trees, etc.

Something I found particularly interesting was how BH's win con was further leveraged by the other roles. Multiple functions existed in the game which limited towns ability to lynch.

It’s scum sided due to there being 3 Saplings which are arguably bad roles for toen.

I felt like a few town roles could have easily hurt the town more than helped. My Bride ability increases the KPN, soul mate can increase the kpn, Flower child further inhibits lynching, sapling decreases towns ability to lynch and judge risks suicide while inhibiting lynching.

I had fun playing. Never truly got to throw myself fully into it and power town but came across some interesting situations. Its not often I end up arguing against lynching a confirmed mafia in favor of tossing the dice on an inactive player.

@powerofdeath
Was I correct that the ghost was killed by mafia or was it killed by the teacher?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think that was just an unfortunate situation that in reality wouldn't happen in 90% of games if not more. We just happened to get the version where it did.

100 % agreed. It's easily fixable, though, hence my mention of it in case we rerun the setup eventually.

Overall though I enjoyed this game, had quite a few new refreshing mechanics I haven't seen in a bit so thanks for hosting it!

^

[powerofdeath]

Something I found particularly interesting was how BH's win con was further leveraged by the other roles. Multiple functions existed in the game which limited towns ability to lynch.

I felt like a few town roles could have easily hurt the town more than helped. My Bride ability increases the KPN, soul mate can increase the kpn, Flower child further inhibits lynching, sapling decreases towns ability to lynch and judge risks suicide while inhibiting lynching.

I had fun playing. Never truly got to throw myself fully into it and power town but came across some interesting situations. Its not often I end up arguing against lynching a confirmed mafia in favor of tossing the dice on an inactive player.

@powerofdeath
Was I correct that the ghost was killed by mafia or was it killed by the teacher?

It was by evil teacher. Varcron found evil teacher immediately and planned on haunting Mizery 24/7 so they had no chance