S-FM 352: ★ Silent Night 2 ★

[ikarusdk]

Or wolf medium can just relay the actual info, hope that the wolf mate gets chopped to gain towncred. This is why I am paranoid about DM. For the same reason people cannot trust my carol 100%.

Having said that, I believe DM living past at least day 2 is much more helpful to town than lynching him here.

Or mislynch a town PR.

Choices are endless!

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Town block
MM
Mac (yes I am now that confident tbh, and if he's scum, I think we just lose anyway)

High town leans
Ultra
Debbie actually no, he hasn't done enough for me to do that, even though I kinda want to lol

Mechanical/situational stuff, town until then
PoD

Medium town leans
Ikarus
Debbie

I have no bloody clue
Stellaria
...Kuti, I guess? probably going to die anyway

Scum leans
Arrow

Strong scumreads
DM
Wisp (PERISH, HEATHEN)


That's my world rn.

[Stellaria]

dead

banana
martin


not town

achro


town

stellaria
ikarus
mac
ultra
deb
MM
PoD
DM
Kutiplz


where the f are you guys (???)

arrow
wisp

If youre gonna talk shit MM and say that I can't read, at least make sure you yourself can.

[Stellaria]

Sigh... I said the exact opposite. No offense, but if you can't read, that is unfortunately not my fault. What even are your overall reads? All you've done is get caught by Banana's "hydra" trolling lol. And excuse me if I'm a little rude, but you're not particularly sympathetic to me with your name waah waaah guilt trip when you've done basically NOTHING OF USE this game and then proceed to sum up my ISO by "nothing i like" lol. If I'm all macarani and no cheese, you're an empty bowl.

(Nothing personal. Also, I didn't say you were Stellaris, Achro did. And it's a cool game nonetheless :P)

Yes, you are being rude. And no, I do not forgive you. I didn't ask for sympathy. I asked for you to not be rude. And you give me this instead, whatever this is.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Lol I misread your post too.

I mean.... I wouldn't be surprised if one of you is mafia and the other neutral too.

Fwiw, I hardclaim town and not neutral lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Yes, you are being rude. And no, I do not forgive you. I didn't ask for sympathy. I asked for you to not be rude. And you give me this instead, whatever this is.

(for the record, this is just a game lol, don't feel bad over it. Not trying to hurt you or w/e)

If youre gonna talk shit MM and say that I can't read, at least make sure you yourself can.

... I mean, this is not exactly impressive. You put everyone in town xD. The only exceptions are corpses, the common knowledge neutral, the near-AFK Arrow and... Wisp, who is in the Arrow category for somer reason. How do you explain those townreads on literally everyone, including Kuti, whom you are voting?

[Loldebite]

there isnt anything townie by being the opposition in the way u are, which is basically just shading the gamestate before u dont know anything

This lol

[Loldebite]

Yes. Gun to head, the ? is Arrow (he's relatively scummy/commits the heinous crime of not being towny/fits in pretty much every possible scum team).

Yes, wolves bus too, but it feels like Kuti never had any resistance to their lynch (barring myself). Noone ever really defended them or distracted from them actively, as far as I can tell. That isn't normal.
@macdougall not trying isn't necessarily antispew, it can be tons of stuff

Like, I'm not 100 % confident Kuti is town, but I'm far from convinced of the opposite. And if they flip town, we're just going to be in a state of deep sorrow. @Kutiplz you ought to come here and show you're town.

In the event Kuti just doesn't come back at all in a reasonable timespan today, I'll be forced to consider their lynch, simply because we'll never be able to trust them fully and the whole thread is just going to have their noses stuck on Kuti instead of solving. Until then, no.

Wow you're actually just scum. That's your textbook defense of a scummate, you did almost the exact same with with PQR in Once Upon a Town in the West. You're next in my poe.

[Loldebite]

I sincerely can't wrap my head around your post for a town perspective

[Loldebite]

I am not saying Kuti is playing optimally, because it's obviously not true lmao. But playing suboptimally =/= being scum

At this point, though, there's only so much I can do to convince y'all if Kuti doesn't just come and speak for themselves.

Lol you're pushing that "lets defend the obvious scum so I look like very confused TWTBAW townie" gambit much too far.

Whatever your argument is you could've made it before kuti went and threw in the towel but doing it afterwards is like ???? it makes no sense at all, so I'm betting it's a gambit cuz I don't think you're that confused.

[Loldebite]

Hm, I must admit that from an external point of view basing on the carol, this is a pretty good plan. Note that I am absolutely always happy with lynching DM here though (and if you're gonna say "but medium!!", know that scum medium can just tell his scum team who Martin's clear is so that wolves kill the clear first, so I fear all of this is useless as hell).

Well I'm not sure that it's possible for scum to do that, if all that stuff happens at EoD after action lock, there's no window of opportunity for that to happen, is there ?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Lol you're pushing that "lets defend the obvious scum so I look like very confused TWTBAW townie" gambit much too far.

Whatever your argument is you could've made it before kuti went and threw in the towel but doing it afterwards is like ???? it makes no sense at all, so I'm betting it's a gambit cuz I don't think you're that confused.

I'm playing HotS right now but just go check my ISO on D1, I was already not getting the argument to lynch Kuti iirc

AND NO I'M NOT PULLING A GAMBIT DAMNIT

And you of all people should know me better than that

[Loldebite]

I'm playing HotS right now but just go check my ISO on D1, I was already not getting the argument to lynch Kuti iirc

AND NO I'M NOT PULLING A GAMBIT DAMNIT

And you of all people should know me better than that

idc about your D1 one, if anything the fact that your stance hasn't change despite kuti literally alt+f4ing is a point against, not for, you

[Loldebite]

like from my POV you're literally defending someone against their wishes which I kinda have to assume is either interested or TMI because why the fuck else

[Marshmallow Marshall]

like from my POV you're literally defending someone against their wishes which I kinda have to assume is either interested or TMI because why the fuck else

Because I believe that "against their wishes" (which isnt even something you KNOW, kuti might just be busy, apparently they are according to Wisp) isn't necessarily SCUM. People acting like this as town is far from unheard of

At this point though, it seems I'm basically suiciding for Kuti, which is absolutely not what I wish lmao. Do w/e you want, my hands are clean from their blood.

[powerofdeath]

if Kuti flip town/jester, I am sending Marshmallow Marshall to be medium tonight. I dont think mafia will ever risk killing MM if MM is town because i think they are convinced MM can be mislynched.

It will also give us more insight if MM or DM have different answers, then we would have direct CC between MM/DM.

If Kuti flip mafia. I will be sending someone else.

Let me know your thoughts.

[powerofdeath]

if Kuti flip town/jester, I am sending Marshmallow Marshall to be medium tonight. I dont think mafia will ever risk killing MM if MM is town because i think they are convinced MM can be mislynched.

It will also give us more insight if MM or DM have different answers, then we would have direct CC between MM/DM.

If Kuti flip mafia. I will be sending someone else.

Let me know your thoughts.

actually thinking about this, MM and DM are both in carol, theyre already direct CC with each others and ikarusdk if kuti flip town

[powerofdeath]

either way i still wanna send someone who town generally see as scumlean and mafia wont ever nightkill

[powerofdeath]

I could also send Arrow, they will never nightkill him, and if they do, well I think mafia resolving arrow's slot for us at price of Martins confirmed clear is probably more beneficial anyway

[Stellaria]

(for the record, this is just a game lol, don't feel bad over it. Not trying to hurt you or w/e)



... I mean, this is not exactly impressive. You put everyone in town xD. The only exceptions are corpses, the common knowledge neutral, the near-AFK Arrow and... Wisp, who is in the Arrow category for somer reason. How do you explain those townreads on literally everyone, including Kuti, whom you are voting?

For starters, you don't have any right to tell me how to feel. Want me to not be hurt? Stop being rude.

Secondly, I'll explain my reads in a moment. Let me do a write-up.

[Loldebite]

Because I believe that "against their wishes" (which isnt even something you KNOW, kuti might just be busy, apparently they are according to Wisp) isn't necessarily SCUM. People acting like this as town is far from unheard of

I mean sorry but know it's safe to say that they don't care lol. As achro said, they're not even bothering with the bare minimum expect from a townie in such a position, so we have to assume they're fine with getting yeet'd. And the reason for that is completely irrelevant lol, it matters not if they're busy or not and you know it perfectly lol.

And sorry but people refusing to elaborate and leaving the thread completely would be new to me. I've seen some refusing to argue, I've seen some scream nonsense, I've seen some spam the same fucking giggling mew picture over and over again but I've never seen one just LEAVE.

Like EVEN IF they were town that's not fucking okay lol so what the fuck are you doing ?

At this point though, it seems I'm basically suiciding for Kuti, which is absolutely not what I wish lmao. Do w/e you want, my hands are clean from their blood.

Well it really DOES seem like you are FMPOV, that's why I put it out this way.

[Loldebite]

For starters, you don't have any right to tell me how to feel. Want me to not be hurt? Stop being rude.

Secondly, I'll explain my reads in a moment. Let me do a write-up.

tbh to get the context straight cuz I'm pretty sure both of you have forgotten it, from the looks of it, MM did not call you "stellaris", he made a joke about the game of the same name after someone else did (achro IIRC?)

[Loldebite]

Like, sure, I'm down to yeet MM into oblivion tomorrow but let's do it for good reasons—mine.

Oh. That was 2h ago. Guess we'll have to wait a fair bit more for your write-up

[Loldebite]

I mean sorry but know it's safe to say that they don't care lol. As achro said, they're not even bothering with the bare minimum expect from a townie in such a position, so we have to assume they're fine with getting yeet'd. And the reason for that is completely irrelevant lol, it matters not if they're busy or not and you know it perfectly lol.

And sorry but people refusing to elaborate and leaving the thread completely would be new to me. I've seen some refusing to argue, I've seen some scream nonsense, I've seen some spam the same fucking giggling mew picture over and over again but I've never seen one just LEAVE.

Like EVEN IF they were town that's not fucking okay lol so what the fuck are you doing ?



Well it really DOES seem like you are FMPOV, that's why I put it out this way.

ugh lots of typos it hurts

[Stellaria]

dead - players that are dead, obviously
banana
martin


not town - the claimed neutral
achro

town - this section is under-labeled. It would be more accurate to have a label at the bottom that says scum. This is a gradient of players going from definitely town to definitely scum.

stellaria - Obviously I know Im town

ikarus - He was my top townread yesterday. At the moment he is still my top townread but I'd like to see things develop with he and deb.

mac - Ive played a few games with this fellow, but it'd be more accurate to say I was playing against him lol. We've never played a game on the same team before. Whenever he was Mafia, idk I feel like he pussyfoots around with me and makes unfair arguments against me. But I'm biased in that way. And whenever I'm Mafia, he nails me immediately. I don't get any sense that he's trying to pocket me (and I am very pocketable because I'm awful sometimes). All of his assessments on people seem grounded and I think his takes this game have been only based. I gained a lot of respect for him because of champs spec chat. We're looking at things the same way; I think he's pretty solidly town.

ultra - Admittedly this is me sheeping mac a little bit. But ultra's pressures on people seem well-founded and I don't get bad vibes from him. I really, really like his responses to deb (above)

deb - Played a few games with deb so far. Deb's thing is that he hates AtE, and my thing is that I hate deliberate rudeness and unfair arguments. I think deb bit off of PoD's argument against me at start of day because I did a lot more than just throw a tantrum and get angry about hydra. I explained my side of things without AtE and deb was fair in their reassessment of me in return.

MM - That's right, you're in the middle. I was not impressed by anything in your ISO at all. If we ran this game with all of the same players except your slot wasn't in it, I feel like the game wouldnt be any different. Only, you're part of a carol. Not great for you. And your responses to me earlier seem very fishy. You're basically the third person now to say that all that I ever did in this game is hydra-related, and I feel like that's a forced take. If you cared enough about my slot to scumread me, I'd think you'd have read the readslist I posted, which was a SINGLE page before you accused me of having no reads and no ability to read.

PoD - SoD argument with me started eith them basically claiming all I did was cry about the hydra. Made no mention of how that scenario went down. Failed to actually explain where that alleged tantrum was/where I was upset, and throughout the entire argument he failed to even acknowledge that I was right.

DM - This guy's reaction to pressure from ikarus today was awful. I am not of the mind that all three ghosts of christmas x-time are the same alignment. I think it'd be bastard to have flavor imply alignment. If there's a 2nd non-town in the Carol, I think it'd be him over you. But if PoD was in the Carol and not you, I'd put him lower than this.

Kutiplz - Flip floppity with the voting yesterday. Unfounded day1 pass on Banana. APPARENTLY everyone except for me knows that Banana is the type of guy to pull that hydra shit. In champs spec chat I sheeped all of kuti's day 1 guesses for one of the games and after all three guesses were correct, I pretty much knew that I could not expect anything less than solid town gameplay. There's no solviness here. They went completely back on the day 1 pass and provided no good reasoning for voting Banana in the end. Mac said that kuti is doing anti-spew. I just think they gave up because they know their goose is cooked.


where the f are you guys (???) - I don't even know enough about these dudes to know where to put them on the above list.

arrow - Just like, no posts. I get the sense that he's either too busy for this, an absolute newb (no offense dude), or both.
wisp - This slot lower than arrow because he has more posts than I did day 1 and I just don't feel any conviction from him.

[Stellaria]

oh hi deb

[Stellaria]

I could also send Arrow, they will never nightkill him, and if they do, well I think mafia resolving arrow's slot for us at price of Martins confirmed clear is probably more beneficial anyway

Anything to get him to post more

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I could also send Arrow, they will never nightkill him, and if they do, well I think mafia resolving arrow's slot for us at price of Martins confirmed clear is probably more beneficial anyway

I think Arrow is too likely to be straight up scum lol

For the purpose you explained I'd rather send Stellaria in the event you don't want to send me. They're less scummy than Arrow, but also definetly aren't a prime target. Up to you in the end, though; besides, keeping the WIFOM on who you will actually end up sending is good.

For starters, you don't have any right to tell me how to feel. Want me to not be hurt? Stop being rude.

Secondly, I'll explain my reads in a moment. Let me do a write-up.

Good lord, I seriously didn't intend to hurt you; you just seemed an objectively not terribly strong player this game, which happens to everyone. And besides, I have to get a read on you, so it's normal that I make moves towards that. As for how you feel, it is indeed up to you, which doesn't mean I can't just clarify things

I'll address your reads in a separate post for ease of reading; thanks for the effort.

I mean sorry but know it's safe to say that they don't care lol. As achro said, they're not even bothering with the bare minimum expect from a townie in such a position, so we have to assume they're fine with getting yeet'd. And the reason for that is completely irrelevant lol, it matters not if they're busy or not and you know it perfectly lol.

And sorry but people refusing to elaborate and leaving the thread completely would be new to me. I've seen some refusing to argue, I've seen some scream nonsense, I've seen some spam the same fucking giggling mew picture over and over again but I've never seen one just LEAVE.

Like EVEN IF they were town that's not fucking okay lol so what the fuck are you doing ?

I mean, such people usually get replaced after a while lol

Also, I'm not saying their play is okay. It isn't. It is, in all honesty, flaming garbage, considering how they put themselves at risk for no reason and how little they actually contribute in a very important moment. However, their play is bad regardless of their alignment, and while there's nothing to laud here, our goal is to lynch scum and ideally keep townies alive, not to lynch bad players.

However, since it seems I am absolutely not convincing anybody and am rather MAKING MYSELF A TARGET for some reason because people are super weird (yes, that's you among others, debbie) or just scum (hi wisp), I am not going to literally die on the Kuti hill. If they want to live, they'll defend themselves, at this point. I certainly hope y'all are right about them.

Well it really DOES seem like you are [suiciding for kuti] FMPOV, that's why I put it out this way.

BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE A "SUICIDE" BECAUSE WHAT I'M DOING ISN'T EVEN REMOTELY SCUMMY
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

... *Ahem.* I mean, I sincerely believe I'm doing what's right here lol.

[Stellaria]

I would rather not die tyvm

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Spoiler : explained, detailed list of reads :

dead - players that are dead, obviously
banana
martin


not town - the claimed neutral
achro

town - this section is under-labeled. It would be more accurate to have a label at the bottom that says scum. This is a gradient of players going from definitely town to definitely scum.

stellaria - Obviously I know Im town

ikarus - He was my top townread yesterday. At the moment he is still my top townread but I'd like to see things develop with he and deb.

mac - Ive played a few games with this fellow, but it'd be more accurate to say I was playing against him lol. We've never played a game on the same team before. Whenever he was Mafia, idk I feel like he pussyfoots around with me and makes unfair arguments against me. But I'm biased in that way. And whenever I'm Mafia, he nails me immediately. I don't get any sense that he's trying to pocket me (and I am very pocketable because I'm awful sometimes). All of his assessments on people seem grounded and I think his takes this game have been only based. I gained a lot of respect for him because of champs spec chat. We're looking at things the same way; I think he's pretty solidly town.

ultra - Admittedly this is me sheeping mac a little bit. But ultra's pressures on people seem well-founded and I don't get bad vibes from him. I really, really like his responses to deb (above)

deb - Played a few games with deb so far. Deb's thing is that he hates AtE, and my thing is that I hate deliberate rudeness and unfair arguments. I think deb bit off of PoD's argument against me at start of day because I did a lot more than just throw a tantrum and get angry about hydra. I explained my side of things without AtE and deb was fair in their reassessment of me in return.

MM - That's right, you're in the middle. I was not impressed by anything in your ISO at all. If we ran this game with all of the same players except your slot wasn't in it, I feel like the game wouldnt be any different. Only, you're part of a carol. Not great for you. And your responses to me earlier seem very fishy. You're basically the third person now to say that all that I ever did in this game is hydra-related, and I feel like that's a forced take. If you cared enough about my slot to scumread me, I'd think you'd have read the readslist I posted, which was a SINGLE page before you accused me of having no reads and no ability to read.

PoD - SoD argument with me started eith them basically claiming all I did was cry about the hydra. Made no mention of how that scenario went down. Failed to actually explain where that alleged tantrum was/where I was upset, and throughout the entire argument he failed to even acknowledge that I was right.

DM - This guy's reaction to pressure from ikarus today was awful. I am not of the mind that all three ghosts of christmas x-time are the same alignment. I think it'd be bastard to have flavor imply alignment. If there's a 2nd non-town in the Carol, I think it'd be him over you. But if PoD was in the Carol and not you, I'd put him lower than this.

Kutiplz - Flip floppity with the voting yesterday. Unfounded day1 pass on Banana. APPARENTLY everyone except for me knows that Banana is the type of guy to pull that hydra shit. In champs spec chat I sheeped all of kuti's day 1 guesses for one of the games and after all three guesses were correct, I pretty much knew that I could not expect anything less than solid town gameplay. There's no solviness here. They went completely back on the day 1 pass and provided no good reasoning for voting Banana in the end. Mac said that kuti is doing anti-spew. I just think they gave up because they know their goose is cooked.


where the f are you guys (???) - I don't even know enough about these dudes to know where to put them on the above list.

arrow - Just like, no posts. I get the sense that he's either too busy for this, an absolute newb (no offense dude), or both.
wisp - This slot lower than arrow because he has more posts than I did day 1 and I just don't feel any conviction from him.

Alright @Stellaria

Firstly, this is the biggest piece of contribution you've ever done this game, by far. If you don't believe me or think I'm just being rude or whatever, just ISO yourself objectively for two seconds. In fact, for the purpose of reading you, I'd like to know what you think about this statement. Anyway, thanks for making it.

On to the list itself, now:

- The fact that the "town" section is in fact a town-scum gradient was basically impossible to derive from your previous list, hence my SERIOUS doubt at you having done anything at all lol (because putting literally everyone who's not super obviously afk or neutral-claiming in a town list is easy). You pushing Kuti in spite of them being on the list makes more sense now.
- About Mac: This is all fair enough, and gives me an idea of how you read people (lots of meta, lots of "feeling", and seemingly lots of insecurity)

- About Ultra: what are his responses to Deb that you really liked and why?

- About myself (and you, I guess): I mean, that's very surprising, considering I generated pushes, consistently gave reads, etc. It's not like I have been sitting in a corner doing nothing uncontroversial lol, so just blanket saying that my ISO is "unimpressive" just feels wrong? I am obviously biased there, but like, it makes very little sense to me. As for your old readslist, it 1) was unexplained and 2) couldn't reasonably be expected to be correctly interpreted, since you labeled almost everyone under "town", which normally means that everyone under that label is... town (and by "normally", I mean that literally every single player I've seen making lists doesn't do that without putting "scum" at the end of the list to make it clear it's a gradient). I did not ignore it, but rather considered it as thoroughly unimpressive and even quite scummy, since Kuti was part of the "town" list, but you were voting them anyway. As for the "only doing hydra stuff", it was true for a long time tbh lol. Again, your own ISO is a proof of it, and I'd really like you to go read it just a little.

- About PoD: Again, no offense, but it feels like you're mostly reacting to what people say about you to read them, and overreact pretty strongly. POD didn't doompush you for it, nor did he start insulting you or whatever, but he stated what was at the time a fact about you, that's all.


By curiosity, are you fairly new to mafia? I kinda took for granted that you were an experienced/very experienced offsite player, but I realize I might have been wrong and might have made some mistakes.

[ikarusdk]

Ok I am off to bed but I wanted to ask; and this is going to be a bit long.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think we reach consensus if we were to vote outside Kutiplz?
GTH, who is your one scum vote that isn't Kutiplz?

Let me rack my mind to see who each of us would vote, and please do correct me if I am wrong here because I'm just trying to remember stuff and I'm not going back to ISO to figure it out.
empty ? denotes that either I can't remember it, and/or they haven't mentioned it.

Ultra - MM?
Arrow - ?
Mac - ?
Achro - DM/MM?
MM - DM?
DM - ikarus?
Stellaria - DM?
Wisp - MM?
PoD - Stellaria?
Loldebite - MM?
Kutiplz - ?
Ikarus - DM?

I am asking because it'd be good to summarize where each of us are at, at this specific moment in time. Even if majority is shared by two or three poe, it'd be good to see the list to help us figure out pairing and anti pairings (although some may already be obvious).

--------------------------------------------------

Now for my speculation/prediction.

Before anyone asks, I'm the one that started Kutiplz vote Day 2 so don't ask why im moving away from kutiplz because I am not. I admit I am cautious nowadays about lynching someone because they are simply going AWOL (I've gone awol before for legit valid reasons-but not for longer than 24 hours) and that has resulted in a few ikarus-led mislynches. While going AWOL does not indicate their alignment, what I do note is the circumstances around the AWOL - Kutiplz clearly indicated the lack of wanting to play this game multiple times. They have claimed gift giver, yet they decided to holster gift giving (as achro claimed it did not happen) for reasons only known to Kutiplz. I would love to say that this behaviour is anti-town, but we all have reasons for withholding information (such as myself when I withheld the carol information) if Kuti has been present at all day 2, so I wouldn't give Kuti a huge demerit point for that one. The entire gameplay by Kuti has been quite jesterly (again, is this because Kuti had already given up? If so, why not just ask for replacement?). Kuti's name was mentioned in the Carol alongside DM and MM.

Current VC as below.

Stellaria (1):
powerofdeath
Kutiplz (6):
ikarusdk, Ultra, Achro, macdougall, Stellaria, Loldebite
ikarusdk (1):
Dark Magician
Dark Magician (1):
Marshmallow Marshall
Marshmallow Marshall (1):
Wiisp

I am going to speculate that in a 14p set up, there are 9t, 3m, 2n. I'm not saying this is true, but for the sake of argument this is what I am going to assume for now. 2 town are dead, 12 players remaining. 1 has gone awol (now 11), and two towns are dead (7 town remaining).

IF Kutiplz is town - then inside that 10 votes (with Arrow not voting, excluding Kutiplz), given how spread out non-Kuti votes are, I suspect, there are at least 3 non-town votes in Kutiplz. Achro claimed neutral, so at least 1 mafia are in there. Why 1? Because I suspect not all mafia needs to be present on Kuti wagon, given how overwhelmingly easy it currently looks. Arrow is also not voting and he is on my scumlist (as some of yours). And if my suspicion is correct, there is also another neutral in there aside from Achro but since I could be wrong, at least 1 wolf. I doubt all 4 non-kuti voters contain 3 mafia. This also means DM/MM are either WvW OR TvW as all neutrals are accounted for in my head, and carol dictates at least one of them is wolf. If my suspicon about who else could be neutral is wrong, then DM/MM could possibly be WvN. So because we've already found a wolf inside DM/MM, if this wagon gets dragged to EoD and Kuti is lynched and flips T, we need to look at vote history behind Banana and Kuti wagon to look for other possible wolves to cover up the possibility of kuti wagon containing more than 1. Banana himself noted the opportunistic nature of flash jumping on his wagon without valid reasons. But we should reach consensus about DM/MM at that point. Btw, whoever kept insisting DM/MM having at least 1 wolf - i forgot who - gets automatic townread from me. If you ask me though, there are two wolves hiding in this (I won't say who I think it could be till later).

IF Kutiplz is jester - This even opens more possibility for ALL mafia members to be on Kuti wagon right now, because that could mean DM/MM could possibly be exactly TvT (but i personally very much doubt this given how I TR certain Kuti wagoners)

IF Kutiplz is wolf - well I'm too tired to type this, as this is gonna get long but the short story is, we found wolf yay but also, not that easy to solve the next day because they easy busssss.

Good night.

I won't be here for the next 14 hours but I'd appreciate it if you could comment on my first question and what your thoughts are about this. I'm tired as fuck when I was writing this so things make sense in my head but I may have made few errors. I'll be back to discuss with you what could be right and what is/could be wrong with what I said.

[ikarusdk]

@Stellaria , I'm just an outsider here, but I think MM never gets angry/aggressive so I don't think he meant to insult you or tried to be rude in any way.

[ikarusdk]

REPLY TO THIS ONE INSTEAD - Edited few errors

Ok I am off to bed but I wanted to ask; and this is going to be a bit long.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think we reach consensus if we were to vote outside Kutiplz?
GTH, who is your one scum vote that isn't Kutiplz?

Let me rack my mind to see who each of us would vote, and please do correct me if I am wrong here because I'm just trying to remember stuff and I'm not going back to ISO to figure it out.
empty ? denotes that either I can't remember it, and/or they haven't mentioned it.

Ultra - MM?
Arrow - ?
Mac - ?
Achro - DM/MM?
MM - DM?
DM - ikarus?
Stellaria - DM?
Wisp - MM?
PoD - Stellaria?
Loldebite - MM?
Kutiplz - ?
Ikarus - DM?

I am asking because it'd be good to summarize where each of us are at, at this specific moment in time. Even if majority is shared by two or three poe, it'd be good to see the list to help us figure out pairing and anti pairings (although some may already be obvious).

--------------------------------------------------

Now for my speculation/prediction.

Before anyone asks, I'm the one that started Kutiplz vote Day 2 so don't ask why im moving away from kutiplz because I am not. I admit I am cautious nowadays about lynching someone because they are simply going AWOL (I've gone awol before for legit valid reasons-but not for longer than 24 hours) and that has resulted in a few ikarus-led mislynches. While going AWOL does not indicate their alignment, what I do note is the circumstances around the AWOL - Kutiplz clearly indicated the lack of wanting to play this game multiple times. They have claimed gift giver, yet they decided to holster gift giving (as achro claimed it did not happen) for reasons only known to Kutiplz. I would love to say that this behaviour is anti-town, but we all have reasons for withholding information (such as myself when I withheld the carol information) if Kuti has been present at all day 2, so I wouldn't give Kuti a huge demerit point for that one. The entire gameplay by Kuti has been quite jesterly (again, is this because Kuti had already given up? If so, why not just ask for replacement?). Kuti's name was mentioned in the Carol alongside DM and MM.

Current VC as below.

Stellaria (1):
powerofdeath
Kutiplz (6):
ikarusdk, Ultra, Achro, macdougall, Stellaria, Loldebite
ikarusdk (1):
Dark Magician
Dark Magician (1):
Marshmallow Marshall
Marshmallow Marshall (1):
Wiisp

I am going to speculate that in a 14p set up, there are 9t, 3m, 2n. I'm not saying this is true, but for the sake of argument this is what I am going to assume for now. 2 town are dead, 12 players remaining. 1 has gone awol (now 11), and two towns are dead (7 town remaining).

IF Kutiplz is town - then inside that 10 votes (with Arrow not voting, and excluding Kutiplz), given how spread out non-Kuti votes are, I suspect, there are at least 3 non-town votes in Kutiplz. Achro claimed neutral, so at least 1 mafia are in there. Why 1? Because I suspect not all mafia needs to be present on Kuti wagon, given how overwhelmingly easy it currently looks. Arrow is also not voting and he is on my scumlist (as he is in some of yours). And if my suspicion is correct, there is also another neutral in there aside from Achro but since I could be wrong, so that is why I meant there is at least 1 wolf. I doubt all 4 non-kuti voters contain 3 mafia because this means DM/MM are either WvW OR TvW as all neutrals are accounted for in my head, and carol dictates at least one of them is wolf. If my suspicon about the 2nd neutral is wrong, then DM/MM could possibly be WvN or TvN. So because we've already established there are 3 out of 4 possibility that inside DM/MM there is a wolf, we should reach consensus who to vote Day 3. While we are doing so, we need to look at vote history behind Banana and Kuti wagon to look for other possible wolves to cover up the possibility of kuti wagon containing more than 1. Banana himself noted the opportunistic nature of flash jumping on his wagon without valid reasons. But we should reach consensus about DM/MM at that point. Btw, whoever kept insisting DM/MM having at least 1 wolf - i forgot who - gets an automatic towncred from me. If you ask me though, there are two wolves hiding in the current Kuti Wagon (I won't say who I think it could be till later).

IF Kutiplz is jester - This even opens more possibility for ALL mafia members to be on Kuti wagon right now, because that could mean DM/MM could possibly be exactly TvT (but i personally very much doubt this given how I TR certain Kuti wagoners)

IF Kutiplz is wolf - well I'm too tired to type this, as this is gonna get long but the short story is, we found wolf yay but also, not that easy to solve the next day because they easy busssss.

Good night.

I won't be here for the next 14 hours but I'd appreciate it if you could comment on my first question and what your thoughts are about this. I'm tired as fuck when I was writing this so things make sense in my head but I may have made few errors. I'll be back to discuss with you what could be right and what is/could be wrong with what I said.

[ikarusdk]

fml let me go to sleep

' If my suspicon about the 2nd neutral is wrong, then DM/MM could possibly be WvN or TvN.'

to

'If my suspicion about the 2nd neutral is wrong, then DM/MM could also be WvN or TvN on top of WvW and WvT'

had to edit this because that could've been confusing.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Ok I am off to bed but I wanted to ask; and this is going to be a bit long.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think we reach consensus if we were to vote outside Kutiplz?
GTH, who is your one scum vote that isn't Kutiplz?
[deleted the rest for ease of reading]

Unfortunately, I don't think we can get a consensus outside of Kuti unless they come back and say something, considering how everyone apparently hates me for saying we shouldn't lynch them lol.
About my one scum vote: well, if we're going inside the carol (which is probably wise), it's DM, unsurprisingly lol. Overall, though, just looking at behavior and disregarding mechanics, my highest scumread is Wisp; but I fear that will be for much later, and am not even sure I'll be alive to see it. If I die one way or another, though, do lynch Wisp at some point.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

also you know spoilers are cool :P

@Stellaria , I'm just an outsider here, but I think MM never gets angry/aggressive so I don't think he meant to insult you or tried to be rude in any way.

thanks lol

[Stellaria]

Alright @Stellaria

Firstly, this is the biggest piece of contribution you've ever done this game, by far. If you don't believe me or think I'm just being rude or whatever, just ISO yourself objectively for two seconds. In fact, for the purpose of reading you, I'd like to know what you think about this statement. Anyway, thanks for making it.

On to the list itself, now:

- The fact that the "town" section is in fact a town-scum gradient was basically impossible to derive from your previous list, hence my SERIOUS doubt at you having done anything at all lol (because putting literally everyone who's not super obviously afk or neutral-claiming in a town list is easy). You pushing Kuti in spite of them being on the list makes more sense now.
- About Mac: This is all fair enough, and gives me an idea of how you read people (lots of meta, lots of "feeling", and seemingly lots of insecurity)

- About Ultra: what are his responses to Deb that you really liked and why?

- About myself (and you, I guess): I mean, that's very surprising, considering I generated pushes, consistently gave reads, etc. It's not like I have been sitting in a corner doing nothing uncontroversial lol, so just blanket saying that my ISO is "unimpressive" just feels wrong? I am obviously biased there, but like, it makes very little sense to me. As for your old readslist, it 1) was unexplained and 2) couldn't reasonably be expected to be correctly interpreted, since you labeled almost everyone under "town", which normally means that everyone under that label is... town (and by "normally", I mean that literally every single player I've seen making lists doesn't do that without putting "scum" at the end of the list to make it clear it's a gradient). I did not ignore it, but rather considered it as thoroughly unimpressive and even quite scummy, since Kuti was part of the "town" list, but you were voting them anyway. As for the "only doing hydra stuff", it was true for a long time tbh lol. Again, your own ISO is a proof of it, and I'd really like you to go read it just a little.

- About PoD: Again, no offense, but it feels like you're mostly reacting to what people say about you to read them, and overreact pretty strongly. POD didn't doompush you for it, nor did he start insulting you or whatever, but he stated what was at the time a fact about you, that's all.


By curiosity, are you fairly new to mafia? I kinda took for granted that you were an experienced/very experienced offsite player, but I realize I might have been wrong and might have made some mistakes.

About Ultra: #1577 #1581 #1608 I liked these posts because I thought deb was flat wrong.


About PoD: Read #1306 #1310 and #1324. Have you done that? Okay, now I challenge you. a) Tell me where I threw a fit or got upset about the hydra thing. b) Explain to me how this isn't PoD doom-pushing me. The dude said I was his top scumread.

About me: Not exactly new, but I'm rusty. The only form of Mafia I was really that good at was in a Discord Server that emulated town of salem, where we did games in Voice Chat. I still have the highest w/l ratio (above 60%) despite not having playing in like 2 years. I played forums mafia on Everybody Edits forums. I was always mid. I represented it in Champs, played with Wisp. I did awful, you can ask him. I was better as a host. I played a few games in Mafia Universe community and a few here on SC-2 Mafia, the first one being my tenure as FM-Sunset in Game of the Century. Ask Mac, Deb, or Ikarus how that went.That game was my worst game ever. I still blame getting vig but deep down I know it was just me. My most recent game was some time back where I was scum partners with Frinckles and Ikarus. I got fucked over by being put in a carol and I got upset because I felt the arguments made against me weren't fair. I didnt handle it well, obviously. So all in all, no I'm not new but I'm not good.

[Stellaria]

My vote, if not on Kuti, is on either you (MM), Wisp, or Arrow. I don't want to vote either PoD or Dark Magician right now. We need both mediums alive, at least until tomorrow when DM has served his purpose.

[Stellaria]

wait I thought MM sent that message wtf

[Loldebite]

our goal is to lynch scum and ideally keep townies alive, not to lynch bad players

Well speak for yourself, I'm here to fling white hot shit at PQR and none of you can stop me.

[Loldebite]

because people are super weird (yes, that's you among others, debbie)

Awww thanks ! You too UwU

BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE A "SUICIDE" BECAUSE WHAT I'M DOING ISN'T EVEN REMOTELY SCUMMY
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

... *Ahem.* I mean, I sincerely believe I'm doing what's right here lol.

It's not scummy as much as it's anti-town. Because it's stoopid. We simply can't leave such a player around, we've gotta clear that slot outta the poe and well without ren to replace into let's just say I don't have much trust in potential replaces to be any better

[Marshmallow Marshall]

About Ultra: #1577 #1581 #1608 I liked these posts because I thought deb was flat wrong.


About PoD: Read #1306 #1310 and #1324. Have you done that? Okay, now I challenge you. a) Tell me where I threw a fit or got upset about the hydra thing. b) Explain to me how this isn't PoD doom-pushing me. The dude said I was his top scumread.

About me: Not exactly new, but I'm rusty. The only form of Mafia I was really that good at was in a Discord Server that emulated town of salem, where we did games in Voice Chat. I still have the highest w/l ratio (above 60%) despite not having playing in like 2 years. I played forums mafia on Everybody Edits forums. I was always mid. I represented it in Champs, played with Wisp. I did awful, you can ask him. I was better as a host. I played a few games in Mafia Universe community and a few here on SC-2 Mafia, the first one being my tenure as FM-Sunset in Game of the Century. Ask Mac, Deb, or Ikarus how that went.That game was my worst game ever. I still blame getting vig but deep down I know it was just me. My most recent game was some time back where I was scum partners with Frinckles and Ikarus. I got fucked over by being put in a carol and I got upset because I felt the arguments made against me weren't fair. I didnt handle it well, obviously. So all in all, no I'm not new but I'm not good.

About Ultra: I see (putting a link to the last post u talked about for easier reference). You're basically townreading Ultra for agreeing with you/being logical, though, which is probably not the best reason, but I can see why you'd do that - especially considering what all you've said reveals about you. Okay, I'm buying it.

About PoD: I have read those posts. a) "Throwing a fit" might be slightly exaggerated, but definetly getting lost and frustrated at Banana's hydra stuff, yes:

I feel like I'm being lied to right now

-vote TheBananaBaroness

okay so this is a stupid idea but what if Banana was some sort of killing role that forced their victims to join the hydra upon death

are there any hungry christmas dudes? anynoen know a character like that?

if it wasn't for the hydra thing, I'd be campaigning for everyone and their grandmother to vote for Banana. So I think I'm justified for poking at it

oh how exciting, have you decided to contribute something meaningful to the thread for once?

Just because all he does is pointless on day1 doesn't mean all anyone does on day1 is pointless

You don't exactly look happy there lol. Besides, it took a very big part of your D1 participation, hence the accusations. As PoD said, you hadn't really provided any reads with explanations/reasonings on D1. As for b), PoD voted you and pushed you a bit. You were nowhere near threatened, and he simply expressed a read that, honestly, is very relatable and based on facts that are easily reachable from your ISO. Doompushing would be MUCH more threatening than that lol, and it would have made you a main topic of the thread, which definetly didn't happen.

About yourself: My point was not "oh you look bad like a newbie", but rather that you have reactions that are often seen from newbies, like disagreeing = scummy, agreeing = towny (see your read on Ultra, and see your reactions towards anyone who ever pushed you). You also look terribly insecure, while you seem to be able to take care of yourself, so I don't see why you'd have such a low opinion of yourself tbh. And for what it's worth, I also went to champs and got stomped lmao. That being said, I think your playstyle now makes a lot of sense from a town point of view. You feel so strongly that people who oppose you must be scum and feel so threatened that it comes out as aggressive suspicion; and while it doesn't seem terribly rational at first glance, it makes sense when considering your playstyle/character/mindset/experience.

Overall, I'm now strangely quite convinced you're town.

[Loldebite]

- About myself (and you, I guess): I mean, that's very surprising, considering I generated pushes, consistently gave reads, etc. It's not like I have been sitting in a corner doing nothing uncontroversial lol, so just blanket saying that my ISO is "unimpressive" just feels wrong? I am obviously biased there, but like, it makes very little sense to me. [stuff about stellaria that idc about]

Hate to break it to you but I had the exact same read of you before our recent clash of sorts. Like I can't recall what push you've made—let alone pushes, plural—and like giving reads is, uh, kinda the strict minimum ?

That being said I agree that stellaria's assessment of PoD is a bit downwards biased imo. I do like the list tho, and tbh I'm in a similar position atm, especially the "hey mac's doing all the work let's sheep that guy" part ngl

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Well speak for yourself, I'm here to fling white hot shit at PQR and none of you can stop me.

You get my point xD

Awww thanks ! You too UwU

love yowouwu

It's not scummy as much as it's anti-town. Because it's stoopid. We simply can't leave such a player around, we've gotta clear that slot outta the poe and well without ren to replace into let's just say I don't have much trust in potential replaces to be any better

I'm all in for lynching inactives when there isn't anything better. I felt there was scummier, and that Kuti might just come back or get replaced anyway (because I don't think Renny Gator to be that essential to our wellbeing, sorry renny lol). That said, considering how literally everyone wants them dead very hard apparently, it looks like it's inevitable. We'll at least gain info, I guess.

[Loldebite]

omfg wait y'all posted walls why I was eating wtf

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hate to break it to you but I had the exact same read of you before our recent clash of sorts. Like I can't recall what push you've made—let alone pushes, plural—and like giving reads is, uh, kinda the strict minimum ?

That being said I agree that stellaria's assessment of PoD is a bit downwards biased imo. I do like the list tho, and tbh I'm in a similar position atm, especially the "hey mac's doing all the work let's sheep that guy" part ngl

I just read my own ISO to make sure I was not overestimating my presence and my action in the thread, and honestly, I don't get why you thought that lmao. Like, I tried to be objective, and it doesn't look unmemorable AT ALL. Perhaps it's because you only arrived in the thread to be more active after I went to sleep, so we never really interacted? Bleh.
As for pushes, the achro push and the ultra one are really obvious if you just look a tiny little bit at my ISO, come on

Also, I like that you're mindmelding with Stellaria and are telling me that in this manner ("hate to break it to you") : it feels like you're actually trying to show me something, and it's genuine-looking.

And now you're going to go full paranoïe and think I'm trying to pocket you and you're going to scumread me even harder. And it's gonna be sad. And I cry.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

omfg wait y'all posted walls why I was eating wtf

Yes! And I'm happy because I think I finally got a read on Stellaria, who was a huge question mark to me before!

i swear my brain always wants to type "stellaris" because of the game lol, its not my fault...

[Loldebite]

Unfortunately, I don't think we can get a consensus outside of Kuti unless they come back and say something, considering how everyone apparently hates me for saying we shouldn't lynch them lol.
About my one scum vote: well, if we're going inside the carol (which is probably wise), it's DM, unsurprisingly lol. Overall, though, just looking at behavior and disregarding mechanics, my highest scumread is Wisp; but I fear that will be for much later, and am not even sure I'll be alive to see it. If I die one way or another, though, do lynch Wisp at some point.

Hey, I am now everyone *puts cool kid sunglasses on*

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hey, I am now everyone *puts cool kid sunglasses on*

I mean, I came back to Wisp saying this

ur wolf equity keeps going up

and to others (Achro, Mac) saying Kuti must die

so it feels kinda justified to say "everyone" as a manner of speaking lol

[Loldebite]

I just read my own ISO to make sure I was not overestimating my presence and my action in the thread, and honestly, I don't get why you thought that lmao. Like, I tried to be objective, and it doesn't look unmemorable AT ALL. Perhaps it's because you only arrived in the thread to be more active after I went to sleep, so we never really interacted? Bleh.
As for pushes, the achro push and the ultra one are really obvious if you just look a tiny little bit at my ISO, come on

Also, I like that you're mindmelding with Stellaria and are telling me that in this manner ("hate to break it to you") : it feels like you're actually trying to show me something, and it's genuine-looking.

And now you're going to go full paranoïe and think I'm trying to pocket you and you're going to scumread me even harder. And it's gonna be sad. And I cry.

Mayyyyyyybe it was because I skimmed, I gueeeess... Still think you fall in that same place as I always seem to do, like "they're here, they do stuff. Meh, sure, but I'm not sold".

I have no idea what that "trying to show me something" bit means lol, but sure !

Oh and don't worry I can't scumread you more than I do atm (that's your answer if you're that desperate for one, ika)

but knowing me it'll backflip a couple more times before EoD arrives so yeah