S-FM 348: Standoff

[Wiml]

Spoiler : Deb Response :

Ah yes, that could actually be considered breadcrumbing I guess, You guess? Feels like you have to have to be very aware of whatever your role is when you make a post like this. Why didn't this come to mind for you earlier when I was asking for things you did that were due to your role / were softing? I feel like this is pretty difficult to forget about if you knew you were a Snitch at the time. as will my "IDC if all TPR die" stance later on. Idea was that all citizen will claim citizen immediately but scum would have to decide on a stance right out of the gate which might've put them in a difficult position. So the idea wasn't for you to bait a nightkill by claiming power role? And if it was then why not just claim when you had the perfect opportunity?

Pink part seemed a bit disdainful/confrontational/contrarian for my taste, I couldn't help but read it kind of like "yeah, uh no bruh wtf u saying" which as a first interaction ever felt a bit much. Please explain why you felt this is mafia indicative because I'm not seeing it.

Red orange part felt exceedingly hypocritical considering we were on the first page of D1, which is most often full of jokes, fluff and otherwise unrelated garbage and that MM has partaken in some of that aspect (I DEMAND HYPE etc...). Did you not consider that MM was making a lot of solving posts outside of fluff though whereas PoD wasn't? By this logic I would also have been hypocritical in pushing PoD.The both of these combined made me very wary of MM for the majority of D1.

In some games I've played before, scum only had a night chat, hence my assumption that they did not. Pink part in my mind was "If you're afraid about TPR getting gutted at night, I'm not. In fact I'd be glad !" but I obviously couldn't say that without claiming. Also pretty surprised you didn't bring this up earlier. I figured that because of my role being investigative, we probably had another not-so-useful role (belief strengthened by varcron's claim at the time), which meant that at worst in my mind we had 1 other good TPR and myself, so 66% chance for scum to target a useless TPR if they so chose. So yeah I really wasn't scared at all. I didn't expect Varcron to make that claim as a killing role. If this is what you thought, why not push harder on claiming PRs?

What I didn't dive into but thought about here is that IMO scum never ever double claims cit as on top of being potentially harder than claiming their real role and being able to use that information to suit their goals that might let town create a towncore of PRs which sounds desastrous for scum, but it seemed not worth investigating further anyway. Why did you drop the claim here? Didn't you having additional information that your role being outed was a positive make the claims worth it to you?

Yeah IIRC I was being scumread by most in my first couple games, one of said cost us the victory because a fellow town voted me alongside mafia despite me being mechanically confirmed. Not a question but I once lost a game because disinterested players managed to kill not one but two confirmed villagers in a row so I feel you. That game did numbers on me.



Yeah I recall laughing at PoD's post, tbh at very first it felt very genuinely annoyed in a "idc what you think I'm not town reading that shit" way, which I liked. Retrospectively, I should've trusted that feeling, but at the time I was scared of the player, I must say. Retroactively,
do you actually think you could have reasonably found PoD as town from this post? If so, what specifically about that attitude would come from a villager but not mafia?

I really liked all those 4 posts Why? when I first read them, and they had struck me as much more impactful/to the point than the first few couple (except the one about ikarus).

This was replying to varcron's readslist where I was at the far end saying "Loldebite for now is my top scum read, but something is off with them. Everything they have said so far in my eyes has in some capacity been scummy, and I can't place my finger on why yet, however this read will likely develop in the future." and that felt so gratuitous I was baffled. I had just woke up so seeing a "scum because shrug" kinda tilted me. Like I still can't fathom that "I can't place my finger on why yet... " Sure, about a few posts about the ENTIRETY of it ?? Did this affect your read on Varcron at all? This is something I personally flagged while doing my N1 will.

AH YES ! My reaction to MM's stupid post reusing ika's stupid argument that I wrote a wall in 4 minutes... When I could understand it from ika's perspective where he thought he figured out something and jumped on the gun, just like I did with vittę, A post which is conveniently not mentioned here lol, why did you think me "lying" was wolf indicative and not just a mistake? someone exterior to the argument SHOULD'VE been critical of the premise and challenged it by paying attention to the context. Obviously MM hadn't done that or he would've read the post just before and found me announcing the wall. Because I was already wary of MM, as mentioned, this made me pretty angry as it felt so puny and small, almost pathetic. This strenghtened my suspicions of MM.

I was still thinking I could be the lynch, so that's really a question I asked myself and wanted other people's opinions on. If you were thinking you about to get voted then wouldn't that have been a perfect time to prepare a PR claim? Otherwise, at least if you were voted you could use your PR, right? I'm not sure why you'd be pushing for a no elim.

At that time I was considering strongly MM/Mizery as a scum team, which is why I mentionned Mizery's vote. It's also then that I realized I probably wouldn't be the lynch, unlike what I had started thinking shortly after waking up (varcron's readlist being about the first thing I read probably played a huge part in that impression). Wasn't it already explained though atp that voting for a no elim was bad? What was your thoughts process behind considering one?

My "hot take" answer to Vittę's question about scum pairings. While that seemed plausible to me, especially in a s!PoD world, I didn't think it was the likeliest but I figured such a position would prompt interesting reactions. Vittę DOES strike me as someone that'd bus PoD hard to gain the town cred. Please explain in detail what specifically about me gives you this impression to such a strong degree that you think I'd be >rand mafia if PoD flipped scum. Also, you initially dropped this read after saying that you thought that me never unvoting PoD made it unlikely to be a bus and then iirc you wordlessly started pushing the read again, what happened there?



I was quite stupid. This is a post I have a hard time getting back into context now. Retrospectively it seems OBVIOUS that PoD is LHF, yet I still decide he's the best vote regardless of how hard I hated on MM... You can be LHF and still the best vote. Otherwise anybody could put no effort in and win as a wolf. Why does what you've said here make you think that PoD was a bad vote in retrospect?

Yet I figured that the PoD flip would give us a lot of info, on DW, on Vittę and on MM. Info good enough that it was worth putting us at mylo if PoD was town?

Found it, that was the post in question, where I really liked the interaction with PoD on MM's part. Why? You're doing a lot of stating what you like but not a lot of stating why you like it. The latter is the main thing that's useful in trying to make reads / find you if you're town and that's what I want to see more of.

I had taken a look at the wagons and realized that I didn't really like it : MM, ika, DW & me were onto PoD but I TR ika and MM at that point, so if PoD was probably not getting bussed as I thought they were. So you thought that PoD was town because the wagon was too pure and that meant they weren't getting bussed? Which in turn meant that they were probably not scum after all, and besides the DW train seemed to face more resistance so it felt better to vote there. But DW facing resistance that would be suggesting DW was a wolf would then imply that the wolves were on the PoD wagon which contradicts what you've just said. The wolves can't both be not voting PoD and resisting the push on Death (so voting PoD) at the same time surely?

Stuff in purple @Loldebite

[Mizery]

Ok good stuff.

Yeah I understand, I came to FM from a background where I had played mafia with mostly friends and very polarised players as well.

i still remember this time in 2018 where the people at the theater were playing mafia around the campfire like we do a lot of the nights even tho now we play botc but the point is i was mafia and i knew that this one guy was onto me and no one else was so i killed him and then when we were informed of his death he was like "BUT ONE LAST THING" and proceeded to drop an oral case on me like BRO that's why i fucking KILLED YOU shut the FUCK UP

[Wiml]

Basically boils down to Mizery being much more active and invested in town's becoming than previously

Why did those posts at the bottom make you feel better about me?

[Wiml]

i still remember this time in 2018 where the people at the theater were playing mafia around the campfire like we do a lot of the nights even tho now we play botc but the point is i was mafia and i knew that this one guy was onto me and no one else was so i killed him and then when we were informed of his death he was like "BUT ONE LAST THING" and proceeded to drop an oral case on me like BRO that's why i fucking KILLED YOU shut the FUCK UP

I think we should all begin our wills with "BUT ONE LAST THING" and proceed to drop a case on Miz

[Mizery]

- POD's lynch was basically inevitable and "deserved", without wanting to be rude; knowing he was town, reading his posts feels really weird, because that means he was misplaying so hard as a non-noob

Everyone who voted him was also "misplaying hard" then, as a non-noob.

PoD made his alignment obvious enough later on despite not saying much or contributing much and you can't push that onto him after misreading him.

also that "non-noob" had taken a 7 year hiatus from mafia and you can't expect people to jump back in and be gods after all the theoretical game meta and player changes that have taken place.

[Mizery]

I think we should all begin our wills with "BUT ONE LAST THING" and proceed to drop a case on Miz

I will kill all of you

[ikarusdk]

Spoiler : DAY 1 :

My mindset going into this game was that I was going to be very open, even if it sounds stupid or noobish, I'm going to say whatever I had in my mind to allow others to better read me as town. I was going to go as 'hard to read for a beginner' as I did in my previous two games (well I tried to be, not saying I was successful), but I thought that in this game where there are more players present, if i let myself read as town, it would help narrow down the list later on. Also as a beginner player who is being an obvious town, I didn't think mafia would prioritise killing me in night 1, especially if a PR claim appears. I knew my role was pretty garbage because I couldn't use my night action so I kept quiet about my role. That was my mindset in day 1.

Now to ISO myself,

I'm just going to trust you are 95% correct, purely based on seniority and experience. But it'll be a good idea to come back to this post and follow up as days progress.

This is me just reading and going along with death, there is no actual content behind my statements.

Last game here with Mizery he was a town so I don't know what he means by he was going to rand wolf again, perhaps he is wolfing right now.

Edit *he thought he was going to random wolf

His opening statement in that game was pretty important in that his following posts made it easier for other towns believe he was town (from my POV). I wouldn't say it is nothing at this stage. I know it's just based off one game. It probably is him trying to appear as town as you said though. I'm just reading it as I see it.

If scum specifically claimed they are town, yeah that is nothing. But soft claim town by saying something that might not be true (unless Mizery played elsewhere where he was wolfing)? You could read more into it.

And maybe it is unwise to say you are town, but in some set ups I'm sure it is a strategy to hard claim town early in day 1 especially as a power role that is limited in number.

At this point in time, without any strong basis (it was still very early and this is based off one comment), I was questioning Mizery on her opening statement because I did not know how many games she has played since our last game. I knew it had no base. At the time I thought I'd start somewhere and I wanted to poke at Mizery, mainly because I had noone else to poke at the time (perhaps death? But I just said it was fun to read his post).

If true:

Armorsmith
Gunsmith
Blacksmith
Chemist
Electromaniac
Physician
Stagecoach Driver
Snitch
Tracker
Scout
Investigator
Janitor
Bartender
Coward
Tailor
Operator

My attempt at trying to figure out what Varcron's role would be.

I don't see a reason why Varcron would lie about it tbh.

Honestly, I don't remember exactly how I came to this conclusion, but I did, and I believed in my reasoning at the time. I honestly did not see any reason why he would lie about his role being non-town friendly.

Then I go off on discussion about why I believe certain roles are not town friendly especially N1.

Varcron is a citizen xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

that is my guess on top of my head without assessing anything analysing anything.

Again, I don't remember exactly why, but I town read him and I believed him to be a town. I wanted to say he was a citizen because I thought he was WIFOMing to draw heat to himself and I wanted to WIFOM him myself to make it harder for mafia to figure out his role. Was I successful? No. Was it fun to think I created some confusion? Yes.

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;973863]Ok I don't know if this is appropriate right now but I townread deathworlds.

1. His speculation post was fun to read.
2.

Because he does not know some players here he can't trust that the rest of us won't do something that is detrimental to the patriots, so he did advise certain roles from using their action in N1

3.


I did not know I could. Very helpful. I wouldn't have done it without this prompt.

4. Just trying to be helpful for town (ok im tired of writing loyalists and patriots and i keep making typos when i do)

I genuinely found death's notes about last will helpful. His reminder not to use certain ability was a bit moot because unless you are stupid you should know, but there are stupid people so it makes sense he can't trust everyone to do what is right, as especially there is a new player (me) present. The first comment meant nothing. Since he at least looked helpful for town and he was the one that was being most helpful to me in some way, I townread him for it. Good enough reason? Perhaps. Is it correct? Perhaps. Perhaps he was gain towncred. Perhaps he was genuinely concerned about some players.

Good morning/afternoon/evening.



Deathworlds set up speculation was a speculation, and did not attempt to solve the game. Towny? I don't think so. It was just fun to read. I guess I should've just left that out from my reason why I town read him.





I agree that Loldebites post was an actual breakdown of the game set up.

Two things I do not like loldebites mechanical break down post, and I think this is quite significant. When I read this post at first I had a feeling it was pre-written. But it is presented to us as a new thought. Now, with that in mind I had a re-read of the post this morning and I'm surprised to see that it was written in 4 minutes. Perhaps it is possible. Perhaps loldebites is used to the layout of the breakdowns in most games. But because something is possible, does that mean that is how it actually happened? *inserts speculation - Perhaps it was pre written in mafia chat to present it as a mechanical breakdown of the set up to appear helpful as a town, especially because we've been talking about how deathworlds breakdown is NAI (i still don't really know what this means but I think I do) and I townread him for it.

Now for the reason Loldebite had been grilling me hard. Yes, it does seem impossible for me to come up with the list and mechanics down in 4 minutes especially on a thought that just came up. My premise entirely depended on the potential of the post having been pre-written somewhere, and the thought of deb working on it on a separate tab did cross my mind. But I had to poke for it because if by any chance I was right, then I ignored something that could've been very important. BUT I ADMIT. I missed this part in her previous post

Wrapping up a big post but sparing a bit of time to answer quickly :

Vittae
Does come off as very analytical. Nothing he said alarmed me or anything, feels genuine in his questions and analysis. Asks the right questions as someone already pointed out and has thoughts that aligns with mine. Strongest town in my book

Varcron
I am just going by my own limited experience here. First unprompted town PR claim - is town. Perhaps to WIFOM or double WIFOM or even triple WIFOM. Towny. But I'd really like to wait for Varcron to start his day.

Deathworlds
I still feel deathworlds is towny. Emphasis has been made about his initial mechanical breakdown, but that was just a speculation and the reason to put him in scumlist for his post having no actual game solving content means little to me. If anything, deathworlds certain instructions, while can be made as scum to gain towncred, are still valid.

Mizery
Her irritation of other people not reading her post made me giggle. Felt genuine. Having said that, nothing of her posts screamed out anything bad. I don't agree with some of her early reads, but we are still early in D1 so that's fine.

PoD
Well people are grilling PoD for not coming up with genuine game related content! True, but PoD has been away for 7 years and because I don't know how he used to play i am willing to give him a benefit of the doubt. People do need time to get back into things you know?

Although I do need to say too many of PoD's post were AtE, which I don't like, and if my first game taught me anything, you gotta be careful about that.


MM
It turns out I do not like MM's posts. One reason is I disagree how you boost Loldebites breakdown when I had my doubts, and I still have my doubts as I explained in my previous post. The another one is this one.



Again, it is because I already have Loldebites at the bottom of my list.

Loldebite
Please refer to my previous post.



This is a read straight outta bed, and my reads can be as fleeting as a naked man running away from a husband of a married woman he slept with.

I still stand by most of my reasoning, but if I can change something would be about scumreading Lolbite for the reason I stated before.

I know ceko, ceko used to play alot in arcade. Don't worry, I am not the same person.

To be quite honest, I don't like the tone PoD has used so far. As I stated earlier, they felt more or less AtE.

I also disagree with you about Vittae. Vittae has been the most outspoken player here thus far. Plenty of good content to go through.

Would you be able to explain why you feel loldebites sound scummy when you manage to find why later on?

I still feel the same way, and perhaps the reason for my vote on PoD is because of AtE, very defensive nature without countering any reasons or pointing to somewhere else. I do admit, I do feel a bit uneasy when it comes to Vittae, and it might be because Vittae is overly helpful. Asking too many too good questions, and with a lot of content. Perhaps Vittae is really good at wolfing. Perhaps this is because Vittae is naturally a good town player and highly experienced. But if you place yourself in my shoes.... quality of post wise, if everyone else is either town or neutral, and you think about PoD's post and Vittae's posts... it's only naturally for me to assume PoD is being the least helpful.

Quick reassessment,

My scumread on Loldebite is pretty weak and relied on timing than real scumread.
If we vote Mizery/MM and mislynch I would've voted PoD. I am now leaning towards MM being town. Later posts by Mizery makes me suspicious, although given lack of time I have I don't know I can take my time to explain.

-vote Powerofdeath

I was running out of time because EoD was like 10 minutes left or something...

If I'm wrong about PoD

My next day focous will be on
Mizery/Loldebite

I still felt uneasy about lol at the time, and because there was alot of people scumreading Mizery, I thought this was the right step even if I did not scum read Mizery.

[Wiml]

NGL being volatile in reads is kind of something I kind of encourage myself to do, with the rationale that if something's really off I'll grow out of it, eventually. Part of the reason is becoming harder to pocket (because I felt like that was a soft spot of mine) and part of the reason is getting harder to anticipate, thus provoking less thought-ahead reactions that are much more interesting. And if it gets me harder to read, that's a bonus for when I'll finally rand wolf

I'll give a short version here to debrief some I thought were wrong impressions.
First impressions were town Why? then quite confident town Why?then I got worried about you bussing Why? and at one point you really were bottom 2 Why? but that was short lived and you climbed up somewhat Why? but I was still wary, high of bottom half I'd say. Then at EoD 1 miz started making sense again and I kinda felt this was thanks to you, at least in part, and you seemd to actively encourage her to be even more towny so you climbed all the way up again.Don't need to ask why on this one. At SoD 2 I got worried you were poisoned but from that point on you never really got lower. Right now you're probably my most confident TR, Why? I know you said because of my DW push but you've also consistently called me very likely w/w with PoD - have you decided I'm not a serial busser now? the only world where I conceive you being scum is the one world where DW is town.

There's a lot of whys here but I'm making a point of it to try to show you what I need to see from you if you're town in order to be able to find you since nothing you've said in those responses is even remotely difficult for a wolf to fake otherwise. To find you if you're town you need to make posts that a mafia member couldn't make basically and the key to that is explaining these whys in detail (starting on this post if you don't mind?).

[ikarusdk]

Anyway, that is my attempt at back reading my log and trying to remember my thought progress and feelings at the time.

[ikarusdk]

Everyone who voted him was also "misplaying hard" then, as a non-noob.

PoD made his alignment obvious enough later on despite not saying much or contributing much and you can't push that onto him after misreading him.

also that "non-noob" had taken a 7 year hiatus from mafia and you can't expect people to jump back in and be gods after all the theoretical game meta and player changes that have taken place.

PoD
Well people are grilling PoD for not coming up with genuine game related content! True, but PoD has been away for 7 years and because I don't know how he used to play i am willing to give him a benefit of the doubt. People do need time to get back into things you know?

Although I do need to say too many of PoD's post were AtE, which I don't like, and if my first game taught me anything, you gotta be careful about that.

I TRIED

[Wiml]

(@MM I see and appreciate your wall but am responding to shorter stuff first as it'll take some time to finish)

[Wiml]

(@MM I see and appreciate your wall but am responding to shorter stuff first as it'll take some time to finish)

Oh and ikarus ty as well

[ikarusdk]

I think we should all begin our wills with "BUT ONE LAST THING" and proceed to drop a case on Miz

LAST WILL

...
....
...

BUT ONE LAST THING

Mizery threatened to kill all of us.


Am I doing it right

[Wiml]

Even if we test my role on death, the possible mafia bartender could easily screw it up.

Question, can bartender cause a fake night action feedback on a role that has no night action?

By the way I'm trying to find time to ISO myself...

I have no idea but you bring up a good possibility and it would be a smart idea to verify your role so that 1. We know that if for whatever reason we find out that it's likely the mafia can't have a Bartender then you're much more likely clear and 2. Guarantees you aren't using your ability as mafia to do harm (very very useful).

If you can do this, definitely submit an action on one of the VT claims (not me as if you survive the night then I'll almost certainly be the nightkill and not get your night result).

[Wiml]

LAST WILL

...
....
...

BUT ONE LAST THING

Mizery threatened to kill all of us.


Am I doing it right

It's true, she really did threaten to kill all of us.

[Mizery]

I TRIED

I was specifically replying to MM here

[Mizery]

LAST WILL

...
....
...

BUT ONE LAST THING

Mizery threatened to kill all of us.


Am I doing it right

ok that settles it i'm killing you tonight

[deathworlds]

@deathworlds talk me through in detail your thoughts process EoD1 and how you came to fullclaim your role so late.

What stopped you from claiming / hinting PR much earlier where you wouldn't have to out as Investigator? What made you wait so close to EoD that you felt you specifically had to out your full role not to die?

How good of a mech player are you? Do you personally believe that you made a mech misplay at EoD1?

just got off my shift, and saw your other @me and will get to it soon^tm.

As for responding to this, I hinted at my role in the banter between me and Varcron, the fake LW i posted.

n1: red, doctor n2: oops no target n3: yellow, already dead n4: orange

It's meant to mimic the last of an investigator (role cop) from the sc2mafia mod, but the investigator in the mod works entirely differently, on a clue based system as opposed to detecting the actual role, here I did the actual roles instead of the clue one gets from investigating a target. Highlighted in white.

As for panic claiming, I well, panicked. I'd say it would probably a misplay on my part, I could have just claimed TPR, but in my nyquill addled brain, I figured "oh, if I just claim TPR, then it won't be enough, and enough people want me dead for some reason, the wagon could go either way, I should really make sure it's on PoD and not me"
Additionally, my fullclaim happened at like the T-2 minute mark, with the train still leaning towards me, I didn't really have the opportunity to keep my cards close to my chest and assume people would unvote me.

[deathworlds]

It's meant to mimic the last will of an investigator (role cop) from the sc2mafia mod

jfc

[Mizery]

jfc

...why?

[Wiml]

just got off my shift, and saw your other @me and will get to it soon^tm.

As for responding to this, I hinted at my role in the banter between me and Varcron, the fake LW i posted.



It's meant to mimic the last of an investigator (role cop) from the sc2mafia mod, but the investigator in the mod works entirely differently, on a clue based system as opposed to detecting the actual role, here I did the actual roles instead of the clue one gets from investigating a target. Highlighted in white.

As for panic claiming, I well, panicked. I'd say it would probably a misplay on my part, I could have just claimed TPR, but in my nyquill addled brain, I figured "oh, if I just claim TPR, then it won't be enough, and enough people want me dead for some reason, the wagon could go either way, I should really make sure it's on PoD and not me"
Additionally, my fullclaim happened at like the T-2 minute mark, with the train still leaning towards me, I didn't really have the opportunity to keep my cards close to my chest and assume people would unvote me.

Thanks, I think the bigger issue is cutting the time way too close, giving nobody any time to discuss your claim and forcing you into a specific role claim - why is that? It's something that's extremely common for mafia to do as a last ditch effort to survive (at least, it is off-site) and given you previously demonstrated good mech understanding it seems very out of character for you as town to do.

[Wiml]

Miz, what was the reason for tying the vote at EoD1 instead of voting PoD directly?

Like I know it's a dumb decision for you as a wolf but I'm still perplexed as to why you'd do it as town.

[Wiml]

Also, if you thought the bucket was optimal on D1 why were you selling it like a joke suggestion?

Come ONNNN guys ur no fun

Were already winning this game no need to play it so straight

Looking at these posts in particular where it doesn't at all match what you suggested you thought earlier today.

[Wiml]

Anyway, I'm going to bed and will go through the other walls in detail tomorrow.

[Mizery]

Miz, what was the reason for tying the vote at EoD1 instead of voting PoD directly?

Like I know it's a dumb decision for you as a wolf but I'm still perplexed as to why you'd do it as town.

Already said why

Didn't want to vote pod but no one was switching off of death

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Everyone who voted him was also "misplaying hard" then, as a non-noob.

PoD made his alignment obvious enough later on despite not saying much or contributing much and you can't push that onto him after misreading him.

also that "non-noob" had taken a 7 year hiatus from mafia and you can't expect people to jump back in and be gods after all the theoretical game meta and player changes that have taken place.

I mean, he wasn't obvious to me at all, and I don't think I see what you see, even with hindsight. Of course, you can (and kinda already did) say that's a skill issue on my part now, especially now that he has flipped. However - and that's where I get back at you, which I can see you don't like lol -, it's much easier to have this point of view when you knew all along that he was town because you have TMI, leading you to interpret his actions under a different prism just because you have prior knowledge.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

(@MM I see and appreciate your wall but am responding to shorter stuff first as it'll take some time to finish)

Understood, it's fine lol

i still remember this time in 2018 where the people at the theater were playing mafia around the campfire like we do a lot of the nights even tho now we play botc but the point is i was mafia and i knew that this one guy was onto me and no one else was so i killed him and then when we were informed of his death he was like "BUT ONE LAST THING" and proceeded to drop an oral case on me like BRO that's why i fucking KILLED YOU shut the FUCK UP

xD that's pretty ridiculous

for the record, I can sense you're getting pretty heated in general lol so I just wish to remind you this is nothing personal

but one last thing...

[Mizery]

I mean, he wasn't obvious to me at all, and I don't think I see what you see, even with hindsight. Of course, you can (and kinda already did) say that's a skill issue on my part now, especially now that he has flipped. However - and that's where I get back at you, which I can see you don't like lol -, it's much easier to have this point of view when you knew all along that he was town because you have TMI, leading you to interpret his actions under a different prism just because you have prior knowledge.

I'm not saying "skill issue" I'm saying you were grading him off of the top students scores when he hasn't gone to school in 7 years

[Mizery]

Also getting heated? Was that part of the joke or

[Mizery]

I mean, he wasn't obvious to me at all, and I don't think I see what you see, even with hindsight. Of course, you can (and kinda already did) say that's a skill issue on my part now, especially now that he has flipped. However - and that's where I get back at you, which I can see you don't like lol -, it's much easier to have this point of view when you knew all along that he was town because you have TMI, leading you to interpret his actions under a different prism just because you have prior knowledge.

Kinda think this post is towny tho

[Wiml]

Already said why

Didn't want to vote pod but no one was switching off of death

Yeah but wasn't the logical of your vote switch to save Death which you... didn't?

Obviously only Death or PoD could have gone over. Who did you actually want to go over?

Please explain this because I can't defend you in my will for the way you played being completely Irrational if you're mafia when by all accounts this seems questionable if you're town as well and I just can't understand your logic. It's something I'd much rather get from you now than have to leave doubts on you in my last will

[Loldebite]

There's a lot of whys here but I'm making a point of it to try to show you what I need to see from you if you're town in order to be able to find you since nothing you've said in those responses is even remotely difficult for a wolf to fake otherwise. To find you if you're town you need to make posts that a mafia member couldn't make basically and the key to that is explaining these whys in detail (starting on this post if you don't mind?).

First impressions were town because of trying to gtfo of RVS asap, doable as any alignment but clearly beneficial only to town. Which you started off by trying to get a better grasp of about players that were there (first MM, then PoD, this is the short lived time where I put you as slightly town) and then a short meta analysis of MM's entrance, some coaching of ika and a read on mizery. All of this felt slightly town, mostly because nothing was accusatory or dissing and I kind of assumed you'd be far past the "shit I know they're all town and can't scum read anyone" syndrome so you feeling slightly good about multiple people felt like actual solving from a town perspective to me. That's when I put you as solid town.

Then you started your case on PoD, which I still felt good about, cuz scum hunting is good lol. But later on I started considering your slot from the powerwolfer position and tbh it felt like you were in an IDEAL powerwolf position so I got scared and started considering what you do assuming you're a powerwolf, see if it fits. Your push on PoD did fit if you were bussing, so I really considered it, strongly enough to mention it in the thread.

I also liked your response to my suspicion :

Interesting. So I strike you as the sort of player who would do that coming out of D1? How would I benefit from bussing PoD while I'm already townread?

Not without irony, the "Interesting" in particular I found very interesting, I don't think you'd react with interest at someone accurately challenging your 1000 iq bus, it doesn't match the vibe I get from you or what I guess of your character, I would expect frustration or something similar would taint the interest enough that you wouldn't react that way. I think it's much more likely to come from you genuinely being intrigued at someone's wild-ish accusation from a town standpoint, but as this is my first game ever with you I couldn't put a lot of weight on that read alone.
Somewhat strangely I think I didn't even register that last sentence of yours and immediately responded to the first question...

There's probably only a max of 1 wolf in MM/deb/PoD actually.

Pending a more thorough review of their interactions.

Slight mindmeld there, in my mind it was a bit closer to "probably exactly one" but not quite there yet. At the time I thought the one scum to be probably PoD.

And then your switch on DW I found really interesting, and I may be a tiny bit result oriented but you & miz managed to form two well defined wagons that way and like thanks lol
Also it helped me realize I didn't actually put PoD at scum all that much and was still voting there mostly out of herd mentality, I think.

And no, I still think you're a serial busser waiting to happen, it's just that bussing DW AND consolidating wagons AND coach-guiding mizery AND the slight mindmeld is a lot, even for a powerwolf... And even if you really are scum you're almost definitely the hardest to catch of the two by now, so I'd rather focus on the one I can catch.

Also it would mean that you chose to bus DW AFTER I call you out for bussing PoD (because I really don't think the DW that panicks yesterday can be a misdirected drugged town), which would be so ballzy I have a hard time believing anyone'd do that, even yourself. I'd be impressed to be proven wrong, tho (please no)

[Loldebite]

I mean, he wasn't obvious to me at all, and I don't think I see what you see, even with hindsight. Of course, you can (and kinda already did) say that's a skill issue on my part now, especially now that he has flipped. However - and that's where I get back at you, which I can see you don't like lol -, it's much easier to have this point of view when you knew all along that he was town because you have TMI, leading you to interpret his actions under a different prism just because you have prior knowledge.

Second time today you're dissing vittę, I know I haven't posted about the first yet, it's in your HUGE FUCKING WALL and I have yet to finish it

[Wiml]

People who've played with Death before - how would you describe his scum meta? How well does he tend to compared to his town play? In a vacuum and ignoring the current difference check where would you place him in his meta currently?

Obviously I can and am looking at his meta anyway but I haven't actually played with him myself so I'd appreciate the perspective.

[ikarusdk]

I have no idea but you bring up a good possibility and it would be a smart idea to verify your role so that 1. We know that if for whatever reason we find out that it's likely the mafia can't have a Bartender then you're much more likely clear and 2. Guarantees you aren't using your ability as mafia to do harm (very very useful).

If you can do this, definitely submit an action on one of the VT claims (not me as if you survive the night then I'll almost certainly be the nightkill and not get your night result).

Yes I am going to try. But I think im going to be night killed first.

[Wiml]

Yes I am going to try. But I think im going to be night killed first.

You're definitely a possible nightkill but not certain so it's still smart to discuss ways of helping find your alignment if you do survive. I won't explain my NK spec further though for fairly obvious reasons.

[Wiml]

Also ikarus just in case redirection shenanigans happen, you shouldn't send a fake Investigator result (send a fake Tracker or Scout result instead or any other night feedback you're able to send that isn't on an existing Town PR claim).

[Loldebite]

Stuff in purple @Loldebite

Ah yes, that could actually be considered breadcrumbing I guess, - You guess? Feels like you have to have to be very aware of whatever your role is when you make a post like this. Why didn't this come to mind for you earlier when I was asking for things you did that were due to your role / were softing? I feel like this is pretty difficult to forget about if you knew you were a Snitch at the time.

Yeah, because I didn't actually intend to breadcrumb, not consciously at least - and I consider(ed?) breadcrumbing to be the CONSCIOUS and PURPOSEFUL disposition of clues.
It didn't come to mind for just that reason : I hadn't made the connection between fact that I was snitch when I wrote that, so when I thought about "stuff I did BECAUSE snitch", that didn't come up, even tho it obviously was shaped by the fact.

Pink part seemed a bit disdainful/confrontational/contrarian for my taste, I couldn't help but read it kind of like "yeah, uh no bruh wtf u saying" which as a first interaction ever felt a bit much. Please explain why you felt this is mafia indicative because I'm not seeing it.

It's not scum indicative. It is, however, typical of scum!MM. Maybe MM in general (don't know him all that well, reasonable doubt etc...) but I'd still say it is most typical of scum!MM.

Red orange part felt exceedingly hypocritical considering we were on the first page of D1, which is most often full of jokes, fluff and otherwise unrelated garbage and that MM has partaken in some of that aspect (I DEMAND HYPE etc...). Did you not consider that MM was making a lot of solving posts outside of fluff though whereas PoD wasn't? By this logic I would also have been hypocritical in pushing PoD.The both of these combined made me very wary of MM for the majority of D1.

Maybe it was a bit hypocritical of you, too, but not PURPOSEFULLY so, not in a way that seemed PLANNED because you had already insinuated that we was being manipulative. Also, your push was quite a bit later - or so it seemed to me.

So yeah I really wasn't scared at all. I didn't expect Varcron to make that claim as a killing role. If this is what you thought, why not push harder on claiming PRs?

Simply because I don't think I have enough clout to pull it off.

What I didn't dive into but thought about here is that IMO scum never ever double claims cit as on top of being potentially harder than claiming their real role and being able to use that information to suit their goals that might let town create a towncore of PRs which sounds desastrous for scum, but it seemed not worth investigating further anyway. Why did you drop the claim here? Didn't you having additional information that your role being outed was a positive make the claims worth it to you?

Well yeah, I firmly believed claiming was a positive for town because of my role, but only if we applied the bucket strat, and if I ever say anything more than I have (maybe I already said too much, actually) implying that I'm fine with PRs or myself dying, I'd risk making myself obvious enough that the positives disappear, and I wasn't confident in successfully pushing for it without outing myself. In retrospect I probably should've done exactly the same as varcron, I never seriously considered he could be chem and that's definitely a big mistake.

Yeah I recall laughing at PoD's post, tbh at very first it felt very genuinely annoyed in a "idc what you think I'm not town reading that shit" way, which I liked. Retrospectively, I should've trusted that feeling, but at the time I was scared of the player, I must say. Retroactively,
do you actually think you could have reasonably found PoD as town from this post? If so, what specifically about that attitude would come from a villager but not mafia?

I think so, yeah. Actually, thinking about it it reminds me of someone else's post but I cannot quite put my finger on it. It was someone experienced annoyed at another someone experienced that was townreading a noob and they were just as pissed at the townread being that easy as PoD is here. Both had that "Wtf are you on anyone can do what he did ! Come the fuck on there's no way you're ACTUALLY TRing him for THAT ???" feel, which I think comes more from a town being pissed at a player they respect seemingly getting pocket because of the alleged recency of an account than from scum being jealous at how easy it is for noobs to get TR.

[QUOTE]I really liked all those 4 posts Why? when I first read them, and they had struck me as much more impactful/to the point than the first few couple (except the one about ikarus)./QUOTE]

Bad phrasing sorry, it's BECAUSE they had struck me as much more impactful/to the point than the first few couple. They felt genuinely solvy. AND there's a hint of frustrated-villager in there, too : "I mean I generally vote people to get a better read on them." ; "I assume that both loldebite and I are your two top suspects? Can I ask if you think we are bussing each others? This early in?".

This was replying to varcron's readslist where I was at the far end saying "Loldebite for now is my top scum read, but something is off with them. Everything they have said so far in my eyes has in some capacity been scummy, and I can't place my finger on why yet, however this read will likely develop in the future." and that felt so gratuitous I was baffled. I had just woke up so seeing a "scum because shrug" kinda tilted me. Like I still can't fathom that "I can't place my finger on why yet... " Sure, about a few posts about the ENTIRETY of it ?? Did this affect your read on Varcron at all? This is something I personally flagged while doing my N1 will.

I had actually forgot about varcron during EoD, too much going on. If I had taken the time to reflect on things before the start of the next day, it definitely would've. But the next time I got down to do some solving (I love nights as VT, it feels like a day off), I learned that varcron was dead, so...

AH YES ! My reaction to MM's stupid post reusing ika's stupid argument that I wrote a wall in 4 minutes... When I could understand it from ika's perspective where he thought he figured out something and jumped on the gun, just like I did with vittę, A post which is conveniently not mentioned here lol, why did you think me "lying" was wolf indicative and not just a mistake? someone exterior to the argument SHOULD'VE been critical of the premise and challenged it by paying attention to the context. Obviously MM hadn't done that or he would've read the post just before and found me announcing the wall. Because I was already wary of MM, as mentioned, this made me pretty angry as it felt so puny and small, almost pathetic. This strenghtened my suspicions of MM.

Let me hide my shame, for fucks sake ... I didn't think it was wolfy, it simply was a good pretext to vote someone and generate context, polarize reads, opinions and people and in a word get things going. Which is why ika's post, despite being bad it itself, overall had a net positive because it prompted MM to answer it in a way that I deem interesting enough. Sadly mine has not, to my knowledge.

I was still thinking I could be the lynch, so that's really a question I asked myself and wanted other people's opinions on. If you were thinking you about to get voted then wouldn't that have been a perfect time to prepare a PR claim? Otherwise, at least if you were voted you could use your PR, right? I'm not sure why you'd be pushing for a no elim.

Wasn't it already explained though atp that voting for a no elim was bad? What was your thoughts process behind considering one?

Yeah that's mb I forgot a very important detail : I was pushing for a no elim because I figured it'd be MUCH BETTER for town to miselim me AFTER I visit someone. That way town would've been in the exact same situation BUT with an extra open scan that can possibly confirm someone as town (which is what I was thinking was the best use possible at the time).

My "hot take" answer to Vittę's question about scum pairings. While that seemed plausible to me, especially in a s!PoD world, I didn't think it was the likeliest but I figured such a position would prompt interesting reactions. Vittę DOES strike me as someone that'd bus PoD hard to gain the town cred. Please explain in detail what specifically about me gives you this impression to such a strong degree that you think I'd be >rand mafia if PoD flipped scum. Also, you initially dropped this read after saying that you thought that me never unvoting PoD made it unlikely to be a bus and then iirc you wordlessly started pushing the read again, what happened there?

Pushing what read ? That you were bussing ? I don't think I ever pushed that read again, but if you can point me at what made you think so, I explain wtf went through my head. Or try.

I was quite stupid. This is a post I have a hard time getting back into context now. Retrospectively it seems OBVIOUS that PoD is LHF, yet I still decide he's the best vote regardless of how hard I hated on MM... You can be LHF and still the best vote. Otherwise anybody could put no effort in and win as a wolf. Why does what you've said here make you think that PoD was a bad vote in retrospect?

Of course, but me not realizing he was LHF meant that I never realized that scum might be pushing PoD because he's easy to get lynched. I was scum reading MM for most of the day and voting alongside him on a LHF AND I didn't believe that MM/PoD was scum. This was just stupid, no other way to look at it.

Yet I figured that the PoD flip would give us a lot of info, on DW, on Vittę and on MM. Info good enough that it was worth putting us at mylo if PoD was town?

Well it's not like I could choose not to get at mylo, could I ?

Found it, that was the post in question, where I really liked the interaction with PoD on MM's part. Why? You're doing a lot of stating what you like but not a lot of stating why you like it. The latter is the main thing that's useful in trying to make reads / find you if you're town and that's what I want to see more of.

Sigh, yeah but that's HARD and I'm a lazy fuck, in case you hadn't realized yet

+ some townpoints with decay

Finally something that goes against what he was doing at the start, finally something that doesn't feel planned

Then there is a good chance you're actively unhelpful? Defending yourself and being in constant reaction isn't scum-hunting and doesn't help town, so you're basically saying you do not wish to help here.

Truth. Truth is good and town sided, I will die on that hill if I must. In retrospect that more us agreeing on a meta level than an actual town tell.

I would rather say it's weird half the town scumread Loldebite and put so much faith in it while he really hadn't done much to be hated for yet lol.

This I believe was genuine and not a mere pocketing attempt. It can be both, for sure, but at least it didn't feel like a dishonest defense and I liked that.

So you thought that PoD was town because the wagon was too pure and that meant they weren't getting bussed?

At that point, pretty much. The only one I was wary about in the train was DW... So why am I not voting DW ?

But DW facing resistance that would be suggesting DW was a wolf would then imply that the wolves were on the PoD wagon which contradicts what you've just said. The wolves can't both be not voting PoD and resisting the push on Death (so voting PoD) at the same time surely?

Yes, I didn't follow through with the reasoning all the way enough to realize that it meant the wagon on PoD was probably even less pure than I was starting to suspect, but I thought enough to realize that
1) PoD was getting votes easily ;
2) DW was not ;
3) DW immediately resorted to AtE when voted up.

Which all in all meant that DW was just scummier than PoD, by quite a margin. And with two wagons quite well defined, I was confident we'd be getting interesting info regardless (at a bare minimum, a list of "PoD trusters" and "DW doubters").

[Loldebite]

Also ikarus just in case redirection shenanigans happen, you shouldn't send a fake Investigator result (send a fake Tracker or Scout result instead or any other night feedback you're able to send that isn't on an existing Town PR claim).

I concur, personally I believe gunsmith is the ideal choice here as it's a town only role that no one has claimed.

[Loldebite]

Also, sorry for the wall, I probably should've spoiler'd that one, too..

[Loldebite]

I concur, personally I believe gunsmith is the ideal choice here as it's a town only role that no one has claimed.

@ikarusdk Might as well tag you directly while I'm at it (and know how to do so easily !)

[Wiml]

First impressions were town because of trying to gtfo of RVS asap, doable as any alignment but clearly beneficial only to town. Which you started off by trying to get a better grasp of about players that were there (first MM, then PoD, this is the short lived time where I put you as slightly town) and then a short meta analysis of MM's entrance, some coaching of ika and a read on mizery. All of this felt slightly town, mostly because nothing was accusatory or dissing and I kind of assumed you'd be far past the "shit I know they're all town and can't scum read anyone" syndrome so you feeling slightly good about multiple people felt like actual solving from a town perspective to me. That's when I put you as solid town.

Then you started your case on PoD, which I still felt good about, cuz scum hunting is good lol. But later on I started considering your slot from the powerwolfer position and tbh it felt like you were in an IDEAL powerwolf position so I got scared and started considering what you do assuming you're a powerwolf, see if it fits. Your push on PoD did fit if you were bussing, so I really considered it, strongly enough to mention it in the thread.

I also liked your response to my suspicion :



Not without irony, the "Interesting" in particular I found very interesting, I don't think you'd react with interest at someone accurately challenging your 1000 iq bus, it doesn't match the vibe I get from you or what I guess of your character, I would expect frustration or something similar would taint the interest enough that you wouldn't react that way. I think it's much more likely to come from you genuinely being intrigued at someone's wild-ish accusation from a town standpoint, but as this is my first game ever with you I couldn't put a lot of weight on that read alone.
Somewhat strangely I think I didn't even register that last sentence of yours and immediately responded to the first question...



Slight mindmeld there, in my mind it was a bit closer to "probably exactly one" but not quite there yet. At the time I thought the one scum to be probably PoD.

And then your switch on DW I found really interesting, and I may be a tiny bit result oriented but you & miz managed to form two well defined wagons that way and like thanks lol
Also it helped me realize I didn't actually put PoD at scum all that much and was still voting there mostly out of herd mentality, I think.

And no, I still think you're a serial busser waiting to happen, it's just that bussing DW AND consolidating wagons AND coach-guiding mizery AND the slight mindmeld is a lot, even for a powerwolf... And even if you really are scum you're almost definitely the hardest to catch of the two by now, so I'd rather focus on the one I can catch.

Also it would mean that you chose to bus DW AFTER I call you out for bussing PoD (because I really don't think the DW that panicks yesterday can be a misdirected drugged town), which would be so ballzy I have a hard time believing anyone'd do that, even yourself. I'd be impressed to be proven wrong, tho (please no)

This level of detail is what I want to see more of, thank you!

I'm impressed you picked out some things here that I believe are genuinely alignment indicative for me (the interesting post not being something I'd make as a wolf - I'd likely just shut down your argument, the fact that I wouldn't bus DW there in a million years if people suspected me as a busser prior). I'm all too used to people on MU not bothering to try to read me properly ig.

BTW just in case you didn't see it I made a response to your large D1 post, it's just in a small spoiler.

[Wiml]

Ok you responded to my wall before I finished sending the message whoops

[Loldebite]

Ok you responded to my wall before I finished sending the message whoops

No worries

It just took a bit of time to answer to so I chose to attack it last

[ikarusdk]

@ikarusdk Might as well tag you directly while I'm at it (and know how to do so easily !)

Yeah got it. Not sure if it will work but it's definitely wort a try if it will help town.

[Wiml]

Deb what have you done this game that you as a wolf either could never possibly replicate or would never willingly choose to do (eg your points on why I wouldn't choose to bus DW and my points on Mizery's EoD1)?

[Wiml]

@ people who know Deb.

Would you expect Deb to draw more attention to themselves if they randed Town Snitch this game so they could get nightkilled or is Deb's play and the answers they gave me to my questions on this in character for them to do as town?

[ikarusdk]

Can I ask @Marshmallow Marshall ?

Unless I am missing something, most of your posts in day 2 have been about Mizery and POD and replying about your actions.
Between loldebite, deathworld and myself, and since there is a wolf among us three, who do you suspect the most? Have you had time to think about it?

[ikarusdk]

and @deathworlds

I'd like to hear about your thoughts on Mizery/MM/Vittae as well.

[Wiml]

@ikarusdk @Mizery @deathworlds

Do you think the D1 interactions between Deb and MM are unaligned on Deb's end cabe be w/w? My initial read on it was no, given Deb's inexperience as a wolf / with interacting and distancing from a partner and the frustration seeming to build up on Deb's earlier posts towards others and feeling genuine when they snapped at MM.

Given MM is low in the consensus PoE, I think this I a really important interaction to look into in more detail but it's definitely something I want a second opinion on.

Don't need to answer this question in the thread today, just check out that part of Deb's ISO?