S-FM 337: Play at Your Own Risk

[FM-Last Hope]

Oh wait L-1, not yet.

-vote unvote

[FM-Last Hope]

That was close. Too close.

[FM-Last Hope]

-vote FM-Bisected Souls

Placeholder vote until closer to end of day.

[FM-Last Hope]

That was scary. I thought I nearly botched it with a possible quick hammer.

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

-vote FM-Bisected Souls

Placeholder vote until closer to end of day.

Bad idea. If he is cult, he will collect mana for that.

[FM-Last Hope]

Bad idea. If he is cult, he will collect mana for that.

Doesn't it only count if it's EoD?

[FM-Last Hope]

Harvest Malice
(Passive)
Gain an additional 1 mana per player that is voting you at EoD. You may self-vote to trigger this ability too.
The wording of this ability indicates that votes before EoD don't give mana.

[FM-Last Hope]

Unless I'm reading it wrong ofc, yet I don't think so.

[FM-Last Hope]

Still maybe I shouldn't vote Bisected as a precaution.

-vote unvote

[FM-Last Hope]

How long until EoD? 18 hours if I'm counting correctly.

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

How long until EoD? 18 hours if I'm counting correctly.

Timer at post #1

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

17h 45m for now

[FM-Gravity Falls]

This whole entire situation makes literally no sense. Matrix faked being blackmailed because they were uncomfortable? Wth? Why would anyone in there right mind do that??? Like even if we believed they were faking being blackmailed it doesn't benefit them to just go "oh shoot, they found a loophole to make me talk, time to give up and lose the game for my faction!"

This whole thing makes no sense as a narrative. Perhaps Matrix is still scum and just got punished by Lag? Clearly it wasn't done by a night action considering Matrix's first post was perfectly normal.

What I'm interested in is the flip flopping by Loony regarding Matrix - they first TRed Matrix, then SRed them, then later concluded they were town/neutral. I feel like this is worth analysis?

[FM-Silent Night]

This whole entire situation makes literally no sense. Matrix faked being blackmailed because they were uncomfortable? Wth? Why would anyone in there right mind do that??? Like even if we believed they were faking being blackmailed it doesn't benefit them to just go "oh shoot, they found a loophole to make me talk, time to give up and lose the game for my faction!"

This whole thing makes no sense as a narrative. Perhaps Matrix is still scum and just got punished by Lag? Clearly it wasn't done by a night action considering Matrix's first post was perfectly normal.

What I'm interested in is the flip flopping by Loony regarding Matrix - they first TRed Matrix, then SRed them, then later concluded they were town/neutral. I feel like this is worth analysis?

Plenty of time to dive into it. Some pertinent questions are:
Was the silencing real?
If yes did they violate it with that post and what consequences come from that?
Either way why give up? (This is something I had a conversation with in a chat about earlier. We agree not attempting to exploit could be a scum resigned to their fate)
Are they cult or Neutral?
If cult can we identify aligned indicators?


Separately- What do we feel about their role mechanically? Would work very well in a cult but from what I see the town has too many chatting utilities so scum should have something:
1 role I havent spoken about that I know can create a chat
I can join a chat and anon post
Then our dead researchers role card could make his own chat (Matrix verified)
Then the item that started on town that can make a chat

Thats a lot of town chatting utility that we know about. I kinda feel like a scum behind the scenes being able to take some level of advantage of it would make more sense to me than an over the top spy who creates chats.

[FM-Silent Night]

By that I mean the role itself makes more sense as a scum role than a town one and more sense as a cult role than a neutral.

[FM-Bisected Souls]

Please excuse my behaviour yesterday
It seems like gameplay during night IRL is plain bad, see the d1 mid game day spam.
Sorry. Now i will read toons

[FM-Silent Night]

Please excuse my behaviour yesterday
It seems like gameplay during night IRL is plain bad, see the d1 mid game day spam.
Sorry. Now i will read toons

No worries. Glad to have you back and in better spirits : )

[FM-Once Upon a Town]

I'm considering a world where Matrix really did get silenced during the day, whether by host or some non-town does not matter, and then tried to communicate something by quoting. It could be that quoting was seen as some form of angleshooting (it would be quite reasonable), and Matrix6 was prevented from doing so afterwards.
In that world, Silent Night looks very bad IMO. They admitted themselves that

most of [their] roles functions are about talking.

, it would make sense that they can blackmail. Why not during the day ? The setup is bastard. This is strong : it's very likely it will result in a mislynch. They probably think that both Wastelander and Souls look worse than they do, even after the mislynch, so even risk-wise this seems plausible.
But there are a couple things that don't fit :
1) Silent Night reveals a bit too much & too easily about his role for a scum player IMO
2) i town read Silent Night
3) Wastelander would be right

What are your thoughts about all that ?

[FM-Once Upon a Town]

Thinking back, might as well go full on :
At SoD they were able to talk freely.
After some time, they were restricted to quotes only.
After even more they, they were forbidden from posting altogether.

Now i don't think this is very likely to be a thing... But perhaps as a single ability, this would make sense ? Some kind of delayed, progressive silencing. I really feel like such an ability would be an instant mislynch in most situations, so that seems strong enough to exist. It's vicious enough that i can seem Lag creating such monstrosity.

[FM-Once Upon a Town]

after even more time*

[FM-Silent Night]

Spoiler : Toons/Matrix interaction :

Starting at 628

Matrix doesn't sound liike a town role to me.

this is gold!!!! you just made my decision so much easier after i alreadyt saw it

-vote FM-Looney Toons

btw what is my role? i will give a hint its not fruit vendor

Matrix I want some fucking explanation why you are voting me and apparently targeting 4 others. Cuz you are acting shady as fuck.

This is your only chance.

if you can kill me, and other people, why are you voting me?

takes too long. voting is the fastest

oh yea nice ultimatum in response to me. bye bye bye

Your choice.

Here is an interesting Toons/Matrix interaction.

[FM-Silent Night]

Thinking back, might as well go full on :
At SoD they were able to talk freely.
After some time, they were restricted to quotes only.
After even more they, they were forbidden from posting altogether.

Now i don't think this is very likely to be a thing... But perhaps as a single ability, this would make sense ? Some kind of delayed, progressive silencing. I really feel like such an ability would be an instant mislynch in most situations, so that seems strong enough to exist. It's vicious enough that i can seem Lag creating such monstrosity.

I feel like your going a little too far tin foil there. But feel free to ask me whatever if you feel like it. I can only confirm I do not have any ability's that effect others chat. I can get randomly thrown into an existing one and do the anon posts.

[FM-Once Upon a Town]

I feel like your going a little too far tin foil there. But feel free to ask me whatever if you feel like it. I can only confirm I do not have any ability's that effect others chat. I can get randomly thrown into an existing one and do the anon posts.

Do you really think an ability to silence that can be used during the day is that tinfoil-y ?
I'm not saying you have to be the perpetrator or such silencing, but i am saying that if we assume such an ability exists (which i agree we have no reason to do atm), you seem to be the one most likely to have it.
The two-steps silencing probably is far-fetched, tho. Let's hope i'm not giving Lag any ideas...

[FM-Bisected Souls]

I feel like your going a little too far tin foil there. But feel free to ask me whatever if you feel like it. I can only confirm I do not have any ability's that effect others chat. I can get randomly thrown into an existing one and do the anon posts.

Uhm, that first ability that you have reminds me of something...
Also, i dont think that tinfol can be used in a bastard game

[FM-Bisected Souls]

Will analysis toons iso on pc. Soon (tm)

[FM-Silent Night]

Do you really think an ability to silence that can be used during the day is that tinfoil-y ?
I'm not saying you have to be the perpetrator or such silencing, but i am saying that if we assume such an ability exists (which i agree we have no reason to do atm), you seem to be the one most likely to have it.
The two-steps silencing probably is far-fetched, tho. Let's hope i'm not giving Lag any ideas...

Not at all. Pretty sure I have said as much quite a few times at this point. Spoiler because the stuff below gets into rambling.

[SPOILER]But a specific action existing that is day triggered and built with an exploit of quoting that then evolves into closing that exploit? Its less that it couldent exist so much as it is that its too specifically built. It would be designed for the person its used on to take a very exact action. If any known role cards were massive with crazy specific contingency's built in it would be more reasonable. But as things stand I feel like that hardcore custom tweaks to stuff is just a bit much to assume given what we have seen in the game. There are too many other much more simple assumptions that could create this. Like a blackmailer that can tweak the blackmail during the day or a bastard host messing around or they just did not notice their feedback from a silencer and the silencer complained to the host what we were doing with Matrix was cheating and they put it a stop to it.

Not that any of it matters but thats my two cents. We should be guessing on what is in the game based on what we see around us. I feel like stuff like role cards usually follow some universal design image as do ideas on mechanics. Seeing a bunch of chat mechanics in the game lead me to assume there was a pattern. Seeing votes effected me strangely lead me to assume it could happen to others and we should be cautious of it. Seeing a role flip that can convert has lead us to assume they were part of an faction with the flipped mana mechanics. These are assumptions but they are built on things we know instead of raw speculation to fit a situation. I generally feel like thats the difference between theory crafting and tin foil.[/SPOILER]

[FM-Silent Night]

Fuck you too spoiler code. I didn't want you to work anyways..

[FM-Mid-Atlantic]

o/ howdy

[FM-Bisected Souls]

Not at all. Pretty sure I have said as much quite a few times at this point. Spoiler because the stuff below gets into rambling.

[SPOILER]But a specific action existing that is day triggered and built with an exploit of quoting that then evolves into closing that exploit? Its less that it couldent exist so much as it is that its too specifically built. It would be designed for the person its used on to take a very exact action. If any known role cards were massive with crazy specific contingency's built in it would be more reasonable. But as things stand I feel like that hardcore custom tweaks to stuff is just a bit much to assume given what we have seen in the game. There are too many other much more simple assumptions that could create this. Like a blackmailer that can tweak the blackmail during the day or a bastard host messing around or they just did not notice their feedback from a silencer and the silencer complained to the host what we were doing with Matrix was cheating and they put it a stop to it.

Not that any of it matters but thats my two cents. We should be guessing on what is in the game based on what we see around us. I feel like stuff like role cards usually follow some universal design image as do ideas on mechanics. Seeing a bunch of chat mechanics in the game lead me to assume there was a pattern. Seeing votes effected me strangely lead me to assume it could happen to others and we should be cautious of it. Seeing a role flip that can convert has lead us to assume they were part of an faction with the flipped mana mechanics. These are assumptions but they are built on things we know instead of raw speculation to fit a situation. I generally feel like thats the difference between theory crafting and tin foil.[/SPOILER]

The same what wild says abt you

[FM-Bisected Souls]

Do you think the n2 kill and the d3 lynch will be important/useful town roles?

[FM-Once Upon a Town]

Do you think the n2 kill and the d3 lynch will be important/useful town roles?

I foresee no N2 kill and D3 lynch is probably going to be a neutral, because we're that good.

[FM-Bisected Souls]

I foresee no N2 kill and D3 lynch is probably going to be a neutral, because we're that good.

Hmm...
Made a misstake,.i see in retrospect

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

I foresee no N2 kill and D3 lynch is probably going to be a neutral, because we're that good.

I still think we can have a neut killer, and the next night there may well be more than one death.

[FM-Silent Night]

The same what wild says abt you

I'm not sure I understand. Between just saying things I do not believe has any reasoning Wilders biggest point is D1 I came out revealing votes mean more than just a lynch advocation and the Warlock flipped with that in their role card. Its like saying there was a scum bus driver in the game so a town one could not possibly exist. I feel that is a bit different than this situation that had so little bearing on the game I threw it behind a spoiler. My point was there is nothing we have seen so far that indicates evolving mechanics designed for very specific situations and the conclusion went a bit far into tin foil territory.
Although to be fair they could have something in their role card that suggests evolving mechanics exist. Although I try to explain how I drew my conclusions when I can I am sure portions of it could be viewed as baseless. I have simply had the privilege of working with many people in chats which has given me a lot of information not available to the rest of the town; and obsessed over it how to use that info for quite a bit.

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

For example, Arso having n0 action can kill 2 players.

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

Although to be fair they could have something in their role card that suggests evolving mechanics exist.

I can say that the mechanics of my role kinda evolving. if I survive this night and we execute the cultist, I will reveal it. Or you will see for yourself in the event of my death.

[FM-Once Upon a Town]

But a specific action existing that is day triggered and built with an exploit of quoting that then evolves into closing that exploit?

No, a muted player angleshooting by quoting in vote posts. Not sure this is something we should consider tho...

[FM-Silent Night]

I can say that the mechanics of my role kinda evolving. if I survive this night and we execute the cultist, I will reveal it. Or you will see for yourself in the event of my death.

This makes me a little nervous with how focused you were earlier today that cult absolutely has to be the lynch. It doesn't really make sense to me for town to gain power as scums weakens. It would make sense for a Neutral to gain power though..

[FM-Silent Night]

No, a muted player angleshooting by quoting in vote posts. Not sure this is something we should consider tho...

I think I just misunderstood what was said earlier. Its way past my bed time and between this and working my mind is not very sharp at the moment.

[FM-Bisected Souls]

I'm not sure I understand. Between just saying things I do not believe has any reasoning Wilders biggest point is D1 I came out revealing votes mean more than just a lynch advocation and the Warlock flipped with that in their role card. Its like saying there was a scum bus driver in the game so a town one could not possibly exist. I feel that is a bit different than this situation that had so little bearing on the game I threw it behind a spoiler. My point was there is nothing we have seen so far that indicates evolving mechanics designed for very specific situations and the conclusion went a bit far into tin foil territory.
Although to be fair they could have something in their role card that suggests evolving mechanics exist. Although I try to explain how I drew my conclusions when I can I am sure portions of it could be viewed as baseless. I have simply had the privilege of working with many people in chats which has given me a lot of information not available to the rest of the town; and obsessed over it how to use that info for quite a bit.

you didnt understand. i didnt say the situations are the same, i said wilder says the same about you as you say about matrix

[FM-Silent Night]

An issue did just occur to me though. Everyone must vote and votes could give cult currency and we only have 1 real train. This puts us in the odd situation of figuring out where to put the votes to avoid giving cult mana if Matrix flips anything other than cult. I don't know what will happen if someone doesnt vote but its probably not good.

Even if they do flip cult I feel like its still a problem because there could be some kinda arsonist who burns the whole town once they have X mana or something else crazy out there.

With that said I think we should consider having the lynch and the rest of the votes spread on town reads to avoid potentially giving recruitment (or some other evil action) currency. Even if you really trust me it may be better just not to throw it to me. I can't do anything that useful with it for the town but if Matrix doesn't flip cult it could just hand the scum an argument to advocate for my lynch tomorrow pushing recruitment paranoia.

If I am not around at end of day players should work this out and be careful about putting someone in a position they could get the wagon shifted on them. This can be helped by having the town read players votes on Matrix to avoid the -1 +1 train shift. Also keep in mind Matrix has a vote that is likely still in play.

I would start working this out sooner rather than later. I will be leaving my vote on Matrix.

[FM-Silent Night]

you didnt understand. i didnt say the situations are the same, i said wilder says the same about you as you say about matrix

My bad. Like I said my mind is burnt out.

Wilder says anything and everything they can to get me lynched. Some of it I feel is objectively not true such as claiming I have not put in effort or that the timing of my vote swap to Toons was after the lynch was locked in as opposed to swinging it onto them. The fact they suggested they get more powerful if cult dies makes me uncomfortable especially because it would suggest they know for certain cult is alive with such a role mechanic but did not disclose that to the town..

If there is something you would like me to address let me know but I feel like I explain why I think something while wilder more says what they think if that makes sense.

[FM-Gravity Falls]

Spoiler : Toons/Matrix interaction :

Starting at 628

Here is an interesting Toons/Matrix interaction.

Hmm. Thinking about this a bit more, the fact they voted each other so early, and the fact looney kept their vote on matrix after changing their read on matrix, does support the argument that they are both wizards who voted each other to give each other mana. Like Looney *could* have self presed onto Last Hope. He did not. Matrix voted Looney fairly early for a weak reason and didn't move. I'm getting more confident this is a hit.

[FM-Silent Night]

Proposed Vote Distribution:
9 players with 5 to lynch. 4 votes to spread around. 3 if you exclude Matrix. I think spreading them evenly limits the risk the best because if we are just very wrong on one of them they only get 1 mana. I would put them on Atlantic, Last Hope, and Politico with only 1 per person and the rest for a hammer.

And dont forget to vote so you dont get mod killed or whatever.

[FM-Silent Night]

Hmm. Thinking about this a bit more, the fact they voted each other so early, and the fact looney kept their vote on matrix after changing their read on matrix, does support the argument that they are both wizards who voted each other to give each other mana. Like Looney *could* have self presed onto Last Hope. He did not. Matrix voted Looney fairly early for a weak reason and didn't move. I'm getting more confident this is a hit.

I really like that line of thought. It would make a ton of sense.

[FM-Gravity Falls]

I mean, I'll vote last hope if it means I save myself.

He entertains the idea but doesn’t do it. Makes no sense, unless Last Hope themself is scum, or he had a reason to keep his vote on matrix.

[FM-Bisected Souls]

An issue did just occur to me though. Everyone must vote and votes could give cult currency and we only have 1 real train. This puts us in the odd situation of figuring out where to put the votes to avoid giving cult mana if Matrix flips anything other than cult. I don't know what will happen if someone doesnt vote but its probably not good.

Even if they do flip cult I feel like its still a problem because there could be some kinda arsonist who burns the whole town once they have X mana or something else crazy out there.

With that said I think we should consider having the lynch and the rest of the votes spread on town reads to avoid potentially giving recruitment (or some other evil action) currency. Even if you really trust me it may be better just not to throw it to me. I can't do anything that useful with it for the town but if Matrix doesn't flip cult it could just hand the scum an argument to advocate for my lynch tomorrow pushing recruitment paranoia.

If I am not around at end of day players should work this out and be careful about putting someone in a position they could get the wagon shifted on them. This can be helped by having the town read players votes on Matrix to avoid the -1 +1 train shift. Also keep in mind Matrix has a vote that is likely still in play.

I would start working this out sooner rather than later. I will be leaving my vote on Matrix.

no. either hammer or no vote

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

It doesn't really make sense to me for town to gain power as scums weakens.

O RLY? So you just said town gain power as scums stronger?

It would make sense for a Neutral to gain power though..

Said the one pretending to be town with cult factional mechanics.

[FM-Wilder Wastelander]

Proposed Vote Distribution:
I would put them on Atlantic, Last Hope, and Politico with only 1 per person and the rest for a hammer.

Nonsence. No votes on them = no mana for them.

[FM-Gravity Falls]

I've moved on from thinking Matrix is town. At best some kind of chaotic neut.

Wilder's reaction reads more like a deflated townie after rereview.

Gravity's claim is still pretty dumb from any perspective.

I misread this post earlier, whoops. Looney doesn't go from town > scum > town on matrix as I mentioned earlier. I misread this post thinking he was saying Matrix was town/neutral.

Doesn't change much but I don’t want our facts to be twisted