With the auto-win plan the game doesn't last until Thanksgiving, we can just turbo the days, end day 3 today, end day 4 at roughly +24 hours, end day 5 at roughly +48 hours, end day 6 at roughly +72 hours, and end day 7 at roughly +96 hours - game ends sooner with the auto-win strategy than by playing drawn out days unless we eliminate correctly today
The fact that PQ is opposed to the plan is actually very AI, PQ loves complicated plans that guarantee victory. Only reason I can see him rejecting such a plan is if the plan doesn't guarantee him victory
It takes 4 IRL days.
If SuperJack isn't a wolf, we'll be here for at least another 3 days, and if there is a deep wolf we're going to see SuperJack flip on the 20th, then we'll see a WrathCyber flip on the 23rd, then we'll see a loldebite flip on the 26th with 5 players left at that point, could easily come down to a final 3, F5 would start on the 27th, F4 would start on the 30th, F3 would start on the 3rd of December, the game might not end until the 5th of December.
With my plan, we turbo MM and coordinate tokens, he flips on the 20th, then turbo Gikkle on the 21st, then Turbo one ascended pair on the 22nd, then turbo another pair on the 23rd, turbo another on the 24th, and then by that point the game is over - the wolf has no path to victory and Auwt calls it for town.
My plan ends the game on the 24th, your plan could have the game last until December 5th, looks like you're the one trying to keep us here for "2 Damn Long"
The plan at its core isn't even that complicated when boiled down to its essence:
Kill off MM + Gikkle, during that time build up enough tokens on OliLag, LightHack, and MartinBomber so all three slots can ascend
If anyone dies it clears the 3 low token slots
If no one dies, then flip each of the ascended slots while dumping tokens on a confirmed town slot.
End up with 3 confirmed town and the wolf having no KP, just chop the PoE - or win along the way by rooting out a deep wolf.
There are some tactical considerations around a wolf's use of Glue + Luck. But the "can only use an item once per game" restriction saves us as only one of our dual slots can be glued, and when a dual slot is glued, loldebite is cleared, so a 1 confirmed for 1 confirmed trade, leading to the same lock win.
And because the plan is so clear cut, you can just turbo through the day phases with minimal discussion - just to coordinate who you send tokens to
PQ Thinks The Play Is Good.. But Wants To Enjoy A Beer And The Spoils Of Victory.. He And I Are Confident In Our Scum Read Of SJ.. He Says If It Does Fail We Have A Bit Of Fun Hunting Third Mafia.. He And I Both Dont Wanna Ruin The Potential Happy Ever After.. After Going Another 4 Days.. Thats Assuming PPL Actually Follow Through With Your Plan.. He Says You Know How That Goes Especially When 1/3 Of Town Isnt Active. Make A Plan Where Super Jack Dies First.. He Says So We Have The Best Of Both Worlds And Potentially Sparing The Suffering Of The Winners..
The Words Of PQRNHACKS
SuperJack is howling. But when I am presented with a 99% chance of victory, and a 100% chance of victory. I take the 100% chance, even if it requires a grind.
The most compelling point against the plan though is that who knows what the heck WrathCyber will do
Ditto for SuperJack based on the way he's played this game.
PQ Also Says He Will Take The 99% Over The Grind Any Time.. So He Can Have Another Beer And Be Over This.. And Move On..
Most PPL In The Game Scum Read SJ.. Why Would You Wanna Deliberately Pro Long It?
I don't see any immediate flaws, tactically, with Lag's plan. Only question is, well, whether it's ethical to do. And in my opinion, the answer is quite clearly no. Some mechanical plans are so resoundingly antithetical to the spirit of mafia itself, that I, someone who loves trying to find the most optimal mechanical play, wouldn't suggest them just based on how boring actually committing to the plan would be. Finding a mechanical solution with 90% odds of success? Sure, I'm up for that. Finding a mechanical solution which would work 100% of the time without any room for actual social deception on the part of the scum? What's the point of even playing mafia at that point?
How I understand it is the plan basically goes down like this:
Lynch me & MM, and if neither of us are scum, it brings us down to 1v5. 3 people have 3+ tokens, and 3 people do not. The teamed souls ascend, they lynch one of the heads for each, continuing to pool all of the tokens on them, and now you have 3 confirmed town(if none of the three were scum), and 3 who are not. You just chop down the 3 and you've won the game. If mafia ever killed prior to the ascensions happening, you have a DIFFERENT set of 3 confirmed town, and you just chop down the other 3. No matter who is scum, the game is won.
I appreciate the thought as someone who also tries to find the best mechanical solution, Lag, but... I'd rather not.
Only have like, 30 minutes before I have to go. Gonna try and do a post that's actually productive in that time lol...
Spoiler : Vote Counts :
Spoiler : Spew :
A bunch of quotes of scum reads and vote counts and stuff
Was gonna do stuff with it
but
ran out of time lol
sorry >.<
I don't see it as much of an ethical question, though I do strongly agree with the sentiment of "What's the point of even playing mafia at that point?"
It basically removes almost if not all deception from a game meant to be about deception. Granted, this was proposed after we caught 2 wolves, but I think the problem still maintains relatively the same significance when 80% of the slots are still alive. Now, if this were in an F3 (or some sort of scenario where ~33% of slots or something like that since a game's SoD1 are alive) and the wolves just mis-stepped into creating a mech-solved situation, I wouldn't mind it as much.
A.K.A "That One Idiot"
How are you all talking about the "ethics" of solving the game. This isn't some exploit. This setup is a Blackflag Nightless variant (7 town vs 3 wolves with no factional kill)
And in Blackflag Nightless mafia automatically loses if they're reduced to 1 member. Mafia is supposed to have automatically lost here under the original setup's rules. And all while town hasn't lose a single member!
And It's not like we're working to break the setup from day 1 - in fact it's not even possible to break the setup from day 1 - I provided balance feedback to Auwt in order to help make sure that such setup-breaking-shenanigans from day 1 were impossible - and Auwt did a very good job of making sure that such shenanigans were not possible from day 1.
What we're doing is wrapping up a game that should just be counted as a win for town. We're solving the setup from a day 3 position, where we've killed two wolves already. This is actually pretty much the only situation where you can just mech win the setup because you have enough town alive to churn through while you generate your mech confirmed slots. If it were day 4 and we mischopped a town, we couldn't mech solve the setup - we wouldn't have enough people.
There's no "breaking the spirit of mafia" we had that days 1 and 2, and town won. So now town should just wrap up this game with the easy mech solve, and anyone advocating against it is playing against their wincon in my opinion.
This whole "let's give wolves a sporting chance to win this game still" is mind-boggling to me - they had their chance, and they got chopped days 1 and 2. The game should be over, why is there so much opposition to just ending it?
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php...Flag_Nightless
Blackflag Nightless - the alignment composition this setup was based on given the lack of a factional kill.
Notice the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member"
We've achieved the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member" so we should just take the mech win and call it a day.
If anyone is "breaking the spirit of mafia" I'd say the wolf is breaking the spirit here by wasting everyone's times and not just conceding. Yet another reason town should just use the mech win to put them in their place and get them to concede.
SB is in opposition to mech-locking the game and cites a game (Magellan) where supposedly a mech lock situation happened (or something very similar in nature to what Lag is saying) and says it it is considered of the worst games of that year.
I never read that game, so I can't really elaborate.
A.K.A "That One Idiot"
if the game is over at this point then its not a game anymore
which is where you are quite literally losing interest in it
people in general find a 90% chance of winning to be more exciting and more satisfying than a 100% chance of winning
and if it makes the game more enjoyable for everyone overall (or the alternative murders said enjoyment) then any semblance of formality over "town should do X" gets thrown out the window into a dumpster truck into a landfill which is immediately gifted with an impromptu nuclear detonation experiment
A.K.A "That One Idiot"
Like, I don't know how else to say it
but like human psychology works this way and unless playing the game to the absolute highest of standards is what constitutes as a satisfactory experience
its difficult in some cases to actually do the optimal play just because this is not life or death; this is a game
if it were IRL and people's lives were on the line then hell yeah we take the mechanical 100% win route
but the original reason we all signed up for this is because we thought this would be fun
A.K.A "That One Idiot"
Yes. The game should be over. The wolves lost, don't let your team get chopped days 1 and 2. I want to move on to the next game, Politico's setup is dope. You should go sign for it too!
Choosing a 90% chance to win instead of a 100% chance to win is playing against someone's win-con. If someone does it because they're not able to tell the two options apart - that's one thing. But consciously choosing the option that's worse for your team is just playing against your win-con, not really any other way to look at it
To a degree, yes.
If you're applying black-and-white to it, and there's no degrees in-between, then I disagree.
People are just refusing to do everything in their power that they could to win. We do this all the time when balancing IRL and other interests and when we spend time on FM. In that respect, I've probably committed quite a number of crimes against my own wincons from just choosing not to spend more time on FM when I could have. I've made good-faith efforts to practically all of them though, except maybe one game where I conceded as last wolf from laughing too hard (S-FM St Mildred's Horror) over this post.
A.K.A "That One Idiot"
feel*
People dont seem to agree anyway, so lets just lynch someone i guess ?
-vote SuperJack
-vote SuperJack
If no one wants to mech win, then might as well vote for the wolf I caught myself lol
But you're British, your revolutions are supposed to exclude lynches!
Also, what Gikkle said about the spirit of mafia is true. Like, Lag definetly deserves recognition for technically finding a way to win the game, but I'm not ready to say it's the path of fun at all.
When I flip and you realise I'm just genuine bored of the pace of the game and irritated at the skill level you believe my scum play is.
As well as the ignorance of epic town derps I did.
My last will, yeet Lag. I don't believe someone who focused so much would willingly ignore my town derps. You can't simultaneously think my wold play is weak, and yet think I'll play next level scum and ultra fake deep.
Sorry MM, you ain't getting your happily ever after.
Also Super Jack Why Did You Phrase It Your In Stead Of Our Happy Ever After?
I dont understand, if you're that bored just go for the mechanical solve, all you have to do is vote once every 24h and after 5-ish votes game's (finally) over.
IMO you'd be glad to have an actual mechanical solve to blindly follow if you were actually bored of the game. At least i would be.
Now Who Is Voting On SuperJack Today.. That Didnt Vote On The Two Previous Scums We Have Lynched?