S-FM 335: Bisected Souls

[Lumi]

How are you all talking about the "ethics" of solving the game. This isn't some exploit. This setup is a Blackflag Nightless variant (7 town vs 3 wolves with no factional kill)

And in Blackflag Nightless mafia automatically loses if they're reduced to 1 member. Mafia is supposed to have automatically lost here under the original setup's rules. And all while town hasn't lose a single member!

And It's not like we're working to break the setup from day 1 - in fact it's not even possible to break the setup from day 1 - I provided balance feedback to Auwt in order to help make sure that such setup-breaking-shenanigans from day 1 were impossible - and Auwt did a very good job of making sure that such shenanigans were not possible from day 1.

What we're doing is wrapping up a game that should just be counted as a win for town. We're solving the setup from a day 3 position, where we've killed two wolves already. This is actually pretty much the only situation where you can just mech win the setup because you have enough town alive to churn through while you generate your mech confirmed slots. If it were day 4 and we mischopped a town, we couldn't mech solve the setup - we wouldn't have enough people.

There's no "breaking the spirit of mafia" we had that days 1 and 2, and town won. So now town should just wrap up this game with the easy mech solve, and anyone advocating against it is playing against their wincon in my opinion.


This whole "let's give wolves a sporting chance to win this game still" is mind-boggling to me - they had their chance, and they got chopped days 1 and 2. The game should be over, why is there so much opposition to just ending it?

[MartinGG99]

This whole "let's give wolves a sporting chance to win this game still" is mind-boggling to me - they had their chance, and they got chopped days 1 and 2. The game should be over, why is there so much opposition to just ending it?

if the game is over at this point then its not a game anymore

which is where you are quite literally losing interest in it

people in general find a 90% chance of winning to be more exciting and more satisfying than a 100% chance of winning

and if it makes the game more enjoyable for everyone overall (or the alternative murders said enjoyment) then any semblance of formality over "town should do X" gets thrown out the window into a dumpster truck into a landfill which is immediately gifted with an impromptu nuclear detonation experiment

[MartinGG99]

which is where you are quite literally losing people's interest in it

ebwop

[Lumi]

if the game is over at this point then its not a game anymore

which is where you are quite literally losing interest in it

people in general find a 90% chance of winning to be more exciting and more satisfying than a 100% chance of winning

and if it makes the game more enjoyable for everyone overall (or the alternative murders said enjoyment) then any semblance of formality over "town should do X" gets thrown out the window into a dumpster truck into a landfill which is immediately gifted with an impromptu nuclear detonation experiment

Yes. The game should be over. The wolves lost, don't let your team get chopped days 1 and 2. I want to move on to the next game, Politico's setup is dope. You should go sign for it too!

Choosing a 90% chance to win instead of a 100% chance to win is playing against someone's win-con. If someone does it because they're not able to tell the two options apart - that's one thing. But consciously choosing the option that's worse for your team is just playing against your win-con, not really any other way to look at it

[MartinGG99]

Choosing a 90% chance to win instead of a 100% chance to win is playing against someone's win-con. If someone does it because they're not able to tell the two options apart - that's one thing. But consciously choosing the option that's worse for your team is just playing against your win-con, not really any other way to look at it

To a degree, yes.

If you're applying black-and-white to it, and there's no degrees in-between, then I disagree.

People are just refusing to do everything in their power that they could to win. We do this all the time when balancing IRL and other interests and when we spend time on FM. In that respect, I've probably committed quite a number of crimes against my own wincons from just choosing not to spend more time on FM when I could have. I've made good-faith efforts to practically all of them though, except maybe one game where I conceded as last wolf from laughing too hard (S-FM St Mildred's Horror) over this post.

[Lumi]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php...Flag_Nightless

Blackflag Nightless - the alignment composition this setup was based on given the lack of a factional kill.

Notice the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member"

We've achieved the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member" so we should just take the mech win and call it a day.

If anyone is "breaking the spirit of mafia" I'd say the wolf is breaking the spirit here by wasting everyone's times and not just conceding. Yet another reason town should just use the mech win to put them in their place and get them to concede.

[Loldebite]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php...Flag_Nightless

Blackflag Nightless - the alignment composition this setup was based on given the lack of a factional kill.

Notice the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member"

We've achieved the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member" so we should just take the mech win and call it a day.

If anyone is "breaking the spirit of mafia" I'd say the wolf is breaking the spirit here by wasting everyone's times and not just conceding. Yet another reason town should just use the mech win to put them in their place and get them to concede.

100% agree.

At this point i'm just going for w.e makes use waste as little time as possible.
I fee like my absence D1 fucked the game up, and i apologize for that... Wont let that happen again.

[Gikkle]

How are you all talking about the "ethics" of solving the game. This isn't some exploit. This setup is a Blackflag Nightless variant (7 town vs 3 wolves with no factional kill)

And in Blackflag Nightless mafia automatically loses if they're reduced to 1 member. Mafia is supposed to have automatically lost here under the original setup's rules. And all while town hasn't lose a single member!

And It's not like we're working to break the setup from day 1 - in fact it's not even possible to break the setup from day 1 - I provided balance feedback to Auwt in order to help make sure that such setup-breaking-shenanigans from day 1 were impossible - and Auwt did a very good job of making sure that such shenanigans were not possible from day 1.

What we're doing is wrapping up a game that should just be counted as a win for town. We're solving the setup from a day 3 position, where we've killed two wolves already. This is actually pretty much the only situation where you can just mech win the setup because you have enough town alive to churn through while you generate your mech confirmed slots. If it were day 4 and we mischopped a town, we couldn't mech solve the setup - we wouldn't have enough people.

There's no "breaking the spirit of mafia" we had that days 1 and 2, and town won. So now town should just wrap up this game with the easy mech solve, and anyone advocating against it is playing against their wincon in my opinion.


This whole "let's give wolves a sporting chance to win this game still" is mind-boggling to me - they had their chance, and they got chopped days 1 and 2. The game should be over, why is there so much opposition to just ending it?

Why blame the last mafia for the actions of the other two? And if mafia was "supposed" to have automatically lost due to mech, then that's a silly setup.

If the mafia is within SJ, Loldebite, WrathCyber, or myself, then we deserve to lose, and will anyways, because there's no way we live to f4 with how we've played. I'm not arguing on the behalf of any of these players, since if they are scum, they've lost.

If the mafia is within MM, Light, or Martin, then I think it'd be the most awful thing in mafia for genuinely good social deception to be cut short just based solely on mechanics.

I'm not arguing against my win condition, here. I think the last scum is probably within SJ/Loldebite/WrathCyber. So therefore, I think we're already in a winning position, and don't even need the fancy mechanical play. IF, however, the mafia is somehow within Martin/Lighthack/MM? They deserve the chance, however slim, to win. I don't think they SHOULD win, because that would be arguing against my win con, and I certainly would get out of my laziness if it were revealed that were the case. However, I think denying them any possibility is unspirited.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php...Flag_Nightless

Blackflag Nightless - the alignment composition this setup was based on given the lack of a factional kill.

Notice the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member"

We've achieved the "Mafia lose if reduced to 1 member" so we should just take the mech win and call it a day.

Then the setup is silly. Doesn't mean I have to go along with it in a non-competitive game.

If anyone is "breaking the spirit of mafia" I'd say the wolf is breaking the spirit here by wasting everyone's times and not just conceding. Yet another reason town should just use the mech win to put them in their place and get them to concede.

Calling for wolves to concede is in bad taste.

If mafia is within MM/Martin/Lighthack, they have a (admittedly very slim) chance at winning when they make it to f4. Even if the possibility is slim, if any of these 3 are mafia, would you deny them with mechanics even that very slim chance of victory? I wouldn't. I think that'd make for a very exciting f4.

[Loldebite]

If mafia is within MM/Martin/Lighthack, they have a (admittedly very slim) chance at winning when they make it to f4. Even if the possibility is slim, if any of these 3 are mafia, would you deny them with mechanics even that very slim chance of victory? I wouldn't. I think that'd make for a very exciting f4.

Considering how little engagement the game is receiving, i don't even think it'd be that exciting, but i see your point.

[Loldebite]

Why blame the last mafia for the actions of the other two? And if mafia was "supposed" to have automatically lost due to mech, then that's a silly setup.

If the mafia is within SJ, Loldebite, WrathCyber, or myself, then we deserve to lose

I'm gonna have fun and say this is a scumslip

-vote Gikkle

[Gikkle]

I'm gonna have fun and say this is a scumslip

-vote Gikkle

I listed myself in the group of names and the we obviously refers to that group of names. Not sure if this is serious or not because you say "gonna have fun"

[MartinGG99]

SB is in opposition to mech-locking the game and cites a game (Magellan) where supposedly a mech lock situation happened (or something very similar in nature to what Lag is saying) and says it it is considered of the worst games of that year.

I never read that game, so I can't really elaborate.

[Lumi]

SB is in opposition to mech-locking the game and cites a game (Magellan) where supposedly a mech lock situation happened (or something very similar in nature to what Lag is saying) and says it it is considered of the worst games of that year.

I never read that game, so I can't really elaborate.

I don't think the problem with Magellan was because of a mechlock situation.

[MartinGG99]

Like, I don't know how else to say it

but like human psychology works this way and unless playing the game to the absolute highest of standards is what constitutes as a satisfactory experience

its difficult in some cases to actually do the optimal play just because this is not life or death; this is a game

if it were IRL and people's lives were on the line then hell yeah we take the mechanical 100% win route

but the original reason we all signed up for this is because we thought this would be fun

[SuperJack]

You folk need to join me in the revolution!

[Marshmallow Marshall]

You folk need to join me in the revolution!

But you're British, your revolutions are supposed to exclude lynches!

Also, what Gikkle said about the spirit of mafia is true. Like, Lag definetly deserves recognition for technically finding a way to win the game, but I'm not ready to say it's the path of fun at all.

[Loldebite]

But you're British, your revolutions are supposed to exclude lynches!

Also, what Gikkle said about the spirit of mafia is true. Like, Lag definetly deserves recognition for technically finding a way to win the game, but I'm not ready to say it's the path of fun at all.

I doubt the last scum will find a "path of fun" from now on at all. I know i wouldnt

[Gikkle]

Lag is almost certainly town. I would be very astonished if they did any of the stuff they are doing this game as scum. Giving town a mech lock way of victory (and I've explained why it would actually work)? That'd be insanity and you'd be betting on town like me standing up to it just out of principle.

Martin is very very likely town. Didn't do a full analysis of spew, but the spew I did get was that they were trying to use Martin as a sort of tool to attack Lag/MM with (MM did a so called "bad attack" on Martin, Varcron/Ozy attacked the two d1 and d2 for "strawmanning Martin"). Screams to me "white knighting", and very unlikely something a scum buddy would do to another scum buddy. VCA with S/S wagon makes it even less likely Martin would be scum, because he went from busing a partner to busing ANOTHER partner, which is silly since all it does is make both your scum buddies be under the spotlight, and you don't get significantly more town points anyways since you were already busing a partner in the first place. Final point, Martin slipped as town at the beginning of the game. More of a cherry on the top reasoning, if anything.

Lighthack, out of the town core, I would argue has the least hard evidence backing them up. D1 VC doesn't help them much (first vote is very easily a bus), I don't remember their slot being a significant voice against Ozy (They did vote them, but they were the third vote I believe, which is also an easy bus vote since the wagon had already picked up steam), and spew actually doesn't really help them (they kind of just TRed Light and left the slot alone).
Why I TR them, and why I presume others townread them as well, is simply meta, the way they've been playing, how they've developed their reads, and stuff like that. Light and PQR are fairly open players thoughts wise, and to me, the thoughts just flow very naturally, and they are very tonally townie as well. Their doubts regarding Lag didn't ever really seem like a way of attacking her credibility, but rather like someone who is genuinely skeptical.

I don't actually remember why I TRed MM. Pretty sure it's just meta based off the fact he seems more involved than last game. He also got attacked a lot by Ozy so there's that. Which could also be a point against him considering how Ozy was trying to build a team, likely to get rid of the most vocal town leader, and might have included his actual scum buddy for the purpose of getting at lag if MM ever flips...
Well, I'm not actually sure. That whole interaction is worth analysis but I don't really feel like I ever have time for it.

SJ is weird in that I don't really get what he's trying to achieve from any of his actions. He tried to argue Wrath was town just on the basis Wrath forgot someone. Also keeps trying to argue Lagiver is scum. Never quite saw his logic. If he's scum, idk what he's doing. If he's town, idk what he's doing. Hesitant to lynch. Starting to think this could just be town.

Loldebite is... Meh. Has kind of just been there this game. Would be willing to lynch.

WrathCyber is completely inactive. Was last vote on Mizery, so I suppose that's SOMETHING. Not much though.

In order of who I'd want to lynch....

Loldebite > WrathCyber > SuperJack > MM

[Gikkle]

Lag is almost certainly town. I would be very astonished if they did any of the stuff they are doing this game as scum. Giving town a mech lock way of victory (and I've explained why it would actually work)? That'd be insanity and you'd be betting on town like me standing up to it just out of principle.

Martin is very very likely town. Didn't do a full analysis of spew, but the spew I did get was that they were trying to use Martin as a sort of tool to attack Lag/MM with (MM did a so called "bad attack" on Martin, Varcron/Ozy attacked the two d1 and d2 for "strawmanning Martin"). Screams to me "white knighting", and very unlikely something a scum buddy would do to another scum buddy. VCA with S/S wagon makes it even less likely Martin would be scum, because he went from busing a partner to busing ANOTHER partner, which is silly since all it does is make both your scum buddies be under the spotlight, and you don't get significantly more town points anyways since you were already busing a partner in the first place. Final point, Martin slipped as town at the beginning of the game. More of a cherry on the top reasoning, if anything.

Lighthack, out of the town core, I would argue has the least hard evidence backing them up. D1 VC doesn't help them much (first vote is very easily a bus), I don't remember their slot being a significant voice against Ozy (They did vote them, but they were the third vote I believe, which is also an easy bus vote since the wagon had already picked up steam), and spew actually doesn't really help them (they kind of just TRed Light and left the slot alone).
Why I TR them, and why I presume others townread them as well, is simply meta, the way they've been playing, how they've developed their reads, and stuff like that. Light and PQR are fairly open players thoughts wise, and to me, the thoughts just flow very naturally, and they are very tonally townie as well. Their doubts regarding Lag didn't ever really seem like a way of attacking her credibility, but rather like someone who is genuinely skeptical.

I don't actually remember why I TRed MM. Pretty sure it's just meta based off the fact he seems more involved than last game. He also got attacked a lot by Ozy so there's that. Which could also be a point against him considering how Ozy was trying to build a team, likely to get rid of the most vocal town leader, and might have included his actual scum buddy for the purpose of getting at lag if MM ever flips...
Well, I'm not actually sure. That whole interaction is worth analysis but I don't really feel like I ever have time for it.

SJ is weird in that I don't really get what he's trying to achieve from any of his actions. He tried to argue Wrath was town just on the basis Wrath forgot someone. Also keeps trying to argue Lagiver is scum. Never quite saw his logic. If he's scum, idk what he's doing. If he's town, idk what he's doing. Hesitant to lynch. Starting to think this could just be town.

Loldebite is... Meh. Has kind of just been there this game. Would be willing to lynch.

WrathCyber is completely inactive. Was last vote on Mizery, so I suppose that's SOMETHING. Not much though.

In order of who I'd want to lynch....

Loldebite > WrathCyber > SuperJack > MM

Actually, switch Superjack and Wrath. I don't trust him that much.

[Loldebite]

Lag is almost certainly town. I would be very astonished if they did any of the stuff they are doing this game as scum. Giving town a mech lock way of victory (and I've explained why it would actually work)? That'd be insanity and you'd be betting on town like me standing up to it just out of principle.

Martin is very very likely town. Didn't do a full analysis of spew, but the spew I did get was that they were trying to use Martin as a sort of tool to attack Lag/MM with (MM did a so called "bad attack" on Martin, Varcron/Ozy attacked the two d1 and d2 for "strawmanning Martin"). Screams to me "white knighting", and very unlikely something a scum buddy would do to another scum buddy. VCA with S/S wagon makes it even less likely Martin would be scum, because he went from busing a partner to busing ANOTHER partner, which is silly since all it does is make both your scum buddies be under the spotlight, and you don't get significantly more town points anyways since you were already busing a partner in the first place. Final point, Martin slipped as town at the beginning of the game. More of a cherry on the top reasoning, if anything.

Lighthack, out of the town core, I would argue has the least hard evidence backing them up. D1 VC doesn't help them much (first vote is very easily a bus), I don't remember their slot being a significant voice against Ozy (They did vote them, but they were the third vote I believe, which is also an easy bus vote since the wagon had already picked up steam), and spew actually doesn't really help them (they kind of just TRed Light and left the slot alone).
Why I TR them, and why I presume others townread them as well, is simply meta, the way they've been playing, how they've developed their reads, and stuff like that. Light and PQR are fairly open players thoughts wise, and to me, the thoughts just flow very naturally, and they are very tonally townie as well. Their doubts regarding Lag didn't ever really seem like a way of attacking her credibility, but rather like someone who is genuinely skeptical.

I don't actually remember why I TRed MM. Pretty sure it's just meta based off the fact he seems more involved than last game. He also got attacked a lot by Ozy so there's that. Which could also be a point against him considering how Ozy was trying to build a team, likely to get rid of the most vocal town leader, and might have included his actual scum buddy for the purpose of getting at lag if MM ever flips...
Well, I'm not actually sure. That whole interaction is worth analysis but I don't really feel like I ever have time for it.

SJ is weird in that I don't really get what he's trying to achieve from any of his actions. He tried to argue Wrath was town just on the basis Wrath forgot someone. Also keeps trying to argue Lagiver is scum. Never quite saw his logic. If he's scum, idk what he's doing. If he's town, idk what he's doing. Hesitant to lynch. Starting to think this could just be town.

Loldebite is... Meh. Has kind of just been there this game. Would be willing to lynch.

WrathCyber is completely inactive. Was last vote on Mizery, so I suppose that's SOMETHING. Not much though.

In order of who I'd want to lynch....

Loldebite > WrathCyber > SuperJack > MM

"Would be willing to lynch", proceeds to put me #1 in lynch order
Now that's an euphemism...
Please save me from this game, do vote me. *Furious mag screaming in the background*
I feel kinda sad that the game would've likely been the exact same had i stayed afk... Actually it might've been harder for scum. That's how bad i think i've played

[Loldebite]

Lol for giving me token. Like who gives me token, and they seemed to want to get in my goodside the day beforem

TBH you simply were the only one talking...

[Loldebite]

feel*

People dont seem to agree anyway, so lets just lynch someone i guess ?

-vote SuperJack

[Lumi]

-vote SuperJack

If no one wants to mech win, then might as well vote for the wolf I caught myself lol

[SuperJack]

When I flip and you realise I'm just genuine bored of the pace of the game and irritated at the skill level you believe my scum play is.

As well as the ignorance of epic town derps I did.

My last will, yeet Lag. I don't believe someone who focused so much would willingly ignore my town derps. You can't simultaneously think my wold play is weak, and yet think I'll play next level scum and ultra fake deep.

Sorry MM, you ain't getting your happily ever after.

[Loldebite]

When I flip and you realise I'm just genuine bored of the pace of the game and irritated at the skill level you believe my scum play is.

As well as the ignorance of epic town derps I did.

My last will, yeet Lag. I don't believe someone who focused so much would willingly ignore my town derps. You can't simultaneously think my wold play is weak, and yet think I'll play next level scum and ultra fake deep.

Sorry MM, you ain't getting your happily ever after.

So you think Lag proposed his mechanical solve knowing people would refuse it "for fun's sake" while also being bored of said game ?

[SuperJack]

So you think Lag proposed his mechanical solve knowing people would refuse it "for fun's sake" while also being bored of said game ?

Hey if they think I can have such low scum ability, I can happy assume they play on a scum level beyond belief.

[Gikkle]

Hey if they think I can have such low scum ability, I can happy assume they play on a scum level beyond belief.

I don't remember you playing very well as scum the one game I played with you.

[SuperJack]

I don't remember you playing very well as scum the one game I played with you.

Which one was that? :P I haven't been scum for a long long time.

[Gikkle]

I don't remember you playing very well as scum the one game I played with you.

Though admittedly you acted nothing like you are currently acting, either. I don't really think this matches either of the playstyles I've seen from you. Not quite sure what you're doing.

[Loldebite]

Hey if they think I can have such low scum ability, I can happy assume they play on a scum level beyond belief.

fair enough lol

[Light_Yagami]

When I flip and you realise I'm just genuine bored of the pace of the game and irritated at the skill level you believe my scum play is.

As well as the ignorance of epic town derps I did.

My last will, yeet Lag. I don't believe someone who focused so much would willingly ignore my town derps. You can't simultaneously think my wold play is weak, and yet think I'll play next level scum and ultra fake deep.

Sorry MM, you ain't getting your happily ever after.

If Thats The Case Ill Be Cranky..

[Light_Yagami]

Also Super Jack Why Did You Phrase It Your In Stead Of Our Happy Ever After?

[SuperJack]

Also Super Jack Why Did You Phrase It Your In Stead Of Our Happy Ever After?

Cause MM seems like the only person who is gonna get it

[Light_Yagami]

Cause MM seems like the only person who is gonna get it

What Happy Ever After?

[SuperJack]

What Happy Ever After?

All scum dead no town dead.

[Loldebite]

I dont understand, if you're that bored just go for the mechanical solve, all you have to do is vote once every 24h and after 5-ish votes game's (finally) over.
IMO you'd be glad to have an actual mechanical solve to blindly follow if you were actually bored of the game. At least i would be.

[Light_Yagami]

Now Who Is Voting On SuperJack Today.. That Didnt Vote On The Two Previous Scums We Have Lynched?

[Loldebite]

Now Who Is Voting On SuperJack Today.. That Didnt Vote On The Two Previous Scums We Have Lynched?

most of town because town didnt want to hammer pointlessly.

[Light_Yagami]

Granted Super Jack Never Voted The Two Scum Either.

[Loldebite]

Correction : most of town didnt vote D2 because they did not want to hammer early D2

[Loldebite]

not early... w.e you get the point

[Light_Yagami]

Yeah I Get It

[SuperJack]

Oh btw. It makes sense that even if it's against all odds and the scum is obviously caught to not concede.

Or else you get gameplay like "if X is scum why haven't they surrendered yet?"

[SuperJack]

Oh btw. It makes sense that even if it's against all odds and the scum is obviously caught to not concede.

Or else you get gameplay like "if X is scum why haven't they surrendered yet?"

And yes I know this heavily suggests I'm scum. Even before I wrote it. I just don't give 2 shits because my wincon isn't depending on me living today.

[Light_Yagami]

I Noticed Something In The Player Order.. Every Scum Thus Far Has Been An Odd Number In The Player Line Up..

[Loldebite]

I Noticed Something In The Player Order.. Every Scum Thus Far Has Been An Odd Number In The Player Line Up..

shit, you got me

[Light_Yagami]

shit, you got me

It Is You Aint It...

[Loldebite]

I Noticed Something In The Player Order.. Every Scum Thus Far Has Been An Odd Number In The Player Line Up..

wait i just realized you outed yourself because i know i am town !!!

-vote Light_Yagami

[Light_Yagami]

wait i just realized you outed yourself because i know i am town !!!

-vote Light_Yagami

Yeah Im Town Also..

[Light_Yagami]

Could Just Be A Coincidence