My Perma-Ban on MU

[Helz]

Its been a while and I probably should have made this thread long ago. I honestly didn't simply because I believed the MU staff wanted the issue to die from public sight before giving me an appeal but it looks like they just have no intention of ever giving me an appeal.

I was perma-banned in the middle of a conversation in the discord of MU. A few things are of note:

-I was in the Serious discussion / Debate section of the discord (which is the appropriate place to have the discussion)
-In years as a member of their site I never once got an infraction (although the community voiced that they assumed this is taken into consideration Dyachei flatly said they give no consideration to prior conduct)
-There was no warning of any kind from moderators or so much as a hint that the conversation was considered a breach of their rules
-The conversation was driven into a taboo subject intentionally by moderators and other members
-I had to report myself to request an appeal and I was flatly denied without any consideration. At this point I overtly voiced I had no access to any other method of communication and was not given the MU email to appeal (as their established community guidelines suggest is their norm)
-When I pointed out I had no access to the conversation log and they were taking my statements out of context my communications were also ignored
-After the fact conversations on the issue by the community were cut off. Multiple citing the banned (me) should/can email the moderators to discuss the issue. I then reported myself again saying if I have that right I would like to exercise it and that was straight up ignored.
-Superjack then argued with them enough on the issue they finally gave him the email address to give to me (muheadmod@gmail.com) and when I emailed them and explained my position I was told "We aren’t interested in discussing your opinions further. It’s about people being offended by what you’re saying and what their interpretation of your words is, not what your intention behind the words may be."
-I then pointed out how the definition of racism is 'prejudiced or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group', how in multiple respects this definition does not fit even given their own responses and how if their ban qualifications are 'bigoted or racist' and I am neither that the punishment should not apply. I never got a response
-Ossie spoke with them on my behalf and although I was not allowed to speak in my defense or given any context to the statements they declared racist they did admit to intentionally denying me an appeal because they thought I was a troll. I do not see how that is possible given I wrote articles for MU (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...-%28by-Helz%29) and had worked with them to establish cross community games with 0 infractions over many years but I suppose they had to justify their behavior somehow.
-At this point I have probably asked them 10+ times if I would be allowed to publish that article I have been working on for years with no response which is just petty. Simply having some balls and saying no is something I could at least respect rather than waiting to see how good it is before voicing some moral / ethical grounds.

I should have made this thread a long time ago. I honestly just thought the only thing they gave a shit about was saving face and if I didn't I would have a better shot at getting fair treatment. To this day every point I have made has been flatly disregarded. I have not been allowed to speak in my defense and I was very intentionally not given the ability to do so even though it was their justification for closing conversations with the community. The point I was banned discussing was that racial stereotypes are cultural in nature and that racist individuals targeted African American culture with laws to create systemic racism. There is nothing hateful in this view and at best I am ignorant which objectively means I am not racist by definition and their perma-ban is inappropriate.

I will also point out Amy has a long standing reputation within the global community for being heavy handed and taking inappropriate moderation actions. It was a sick level of comical to talk about my situation to other communities and hear over and over "I bet that was Amy' without mentioning any names or even knowing it was Amy who pushed my perma-ban through.

All I can really say is this:
MU.JPG
I could accept being denied on an appeal but not being given even the context to what I am accused of or so much as the email-address to make an appeal is pretty fucked up. My mind is not gone yet and I would genuinely like the opportunity to represent our community before that happens. As the host of a global competition they are equally held accountable to the global community and sandbagging people at will is just a reflection of overt corruption.

All that said- I would appreciate either poking them to just follow their established process or telling me I am genuinely wrong so I can stop loosing sleep over this issue. I am really sick of feeling like shit over this and its not even about a video game.

[Helz]

I guess that came out half ass coherent. Still so pissed off about it I can't so much as think about signing up for a game without obsessing over the issue

-edit
for context that screen shot was part of my email to them. They had nothing to say.

[ZZorange]

Damn I'm sorry that happened to you brother. I too have been banned from a discord having done nothing as well. Thoughts and prayers are with you, stay strong.

[Firebringer]

How ridiculous. You know basic idea of justice is to allow for people to defend against what their accused of. Fucking gross.

[OzyWho]

Its been a while and I probably should have made this thread long ago. I honestly didn't simply because I believed the MU staff wanted the issue to die from public sight before giving me an appeal but it looks like they just have no intention of ever giving me an appeal.

I could have told you that beforehand. Ohh wait.. I did.
But tbh, this makes sense for their ever-lasting "zero tolerance on bigotry".

But was it bigotry though? Idk. I never bothered to look into it due to how incomprehensible the text is for me personally. But a thing of note here is that everyone who bothered commenting on it agreed that it was. Everyone except me and SJ - and I didn't even read.

If it was only the mods saying that, that'd be an issue. But as it stands - it's the consensus of their community.

I was perma-banned in the middle of a conversation in the discord of MU. A few things are of note:

-I was in the Serious discussion / Debate section of the discord (which is the appropriate place to have the discussion)

I don't think they believe it was a honest debate. I think they're more of the impression that you pulled a "I'm just debating!" card. (Which is not exactly a new thing on the internet)

For others, this was Amy's final straw:

[02-Apr-21 12:36 PM] Mixolydia#8907 Alright, sure, I'll bite. Let's use your example of Asian-American admissions to Ivy League schools, and attempt to draw a comparison between that and minority prison populations. There are a number of both empirical studies and anecdotal sources (which I'm not going to source, because it's 4:30 AM and I'm not defending a doctoral thesis, so please bear with me) that indicate that quite a few factors go into why a disproportionate amount of our prison population is black or hispanic: chief among these are the prejudices of law enforcement officers and the criminal justice system as a whole, backed by laws such as mandatory minimum sentences and harsh drug laws designed in the 70s and 80s and _specifically_ targeted at drugs used primarily by minority communities. In my mind, this doesn't track with how you presented your Ivy League argument at all. You posited something along the lines of Asian-Americans having a culture of academic achievement, thus implying that while you did believe there was a cultural and thus racial difference involved in the process, you also feel that it was merit-based. The problem is that if you're saying the above two scenarios are comparable, you're either saying they're both merit-based, which would be a blatantly racist sentiment in the prison scenario, or you're suggesting that the marginalized group in each is being specifically and directly marginalized (as opposed to the non-marginalized group simply gaining some sort of advantage), which would be pretty absurd in the Ivy League argument. I cannot see a way in which these two scenarios are legitimately similar except "the minority is the bigger number". [02-Apr-21 12:36 PM] Pawnshop Dragon#8291 Similar to what? What does that matter unless I have claimed that racial and economic disparity are the sole ways to determine systemic racism? [02-Apr-21 12:36 PM] Pawnshop Dragon#8291 You've also not *shown* them to be similar anyways, you just keep saying it. [02-Apr-21 12:37 PM] Helz#8260 I feel like you created a giant strawman there. [02-Apr-21 12:38 PM] Helz#8260 My point that ivy league education had bearing on systemic racism was not associated with prision populations outside of how cultural drives function [02-Apr-21 12:38 PM] Helz#8260 Which I still maintain are valid [02-Apr-21 12:39 PM] Mixolydia#8907 how does cultural drive relate to prison populations [02-Apr-21 12:39 PM] Helz#8260 In that they hold true to the same racial distribution of sports teams [02-Apr-21 12:39 PM] Helz#8260 On the most basic level- Asian culture glorifys academic success. African American culture glorifys sucess in sports [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Mixolydia#8907 how does that relate to prison populations [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Helz#8260 Compare the same cultural drives with crime culture [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] euklyd#0776 don't u get it amy, african american culture glorifies violent crime [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] euklyd#0776 oh [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Mixolydia#8907 aha [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Mixolydia#8907 wow [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] euklyd#0776 he said it out loud [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Mixolydia#8907 you said the quiet part out loud [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Mixolydia#8907 yeah, i don't need this shit on this server [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] euklyd#0776 he really did say it [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Mixolydia#8907 thanks for playing, better luck next time [02-Apr-21 12:41 PM] Mixolydia#8907 mod note: Helz has been permanently banned because (please read everything up there^)

From the wording "he finally said it!" - I think we can infer that they were waiting for Helz to finally say it directly without beating around the bush.

-There was no warning of any kind from moderators or so much as a hint that the conversation was considered a breach of their rules

Amy has free reign over their #Debate channel.
However, it's straight up said in their rules that she cannot ban you from the server nor the site.

The moderation staff is ceding full control of the #debate channel on the Discord server to Makaze. They will be the sole arbiter of corrective action within that space. They cannot ban you from the server at large, but they CAN remove your access to that channel.

To ban you - it must have been the decision of their entire mod team, and there must had been a majority vote. (though, given the speed of it all, I doubt how many of them looked at it actually)

-The conversation was driven into a taboo subject intentionally by moderators and other members

As far as I can tell, you started it? You just beat around the bush and they kept questioning you.
I say that without having read it though. Just looked at Amy's "final straw" that I quoted above.

-I had to report myself to request an appeal and I was flatly denied without any consideration. At this point I overtly voiced I had no access to any other method of communication and was not given the MU email to appeal (as their established community guidelines suggest is their norm)

I guess this is what they mean by "zero tolerance".

-When I pointed out I had no access to the conversation log and they were taking my statements out of context my communications were also ignored

For anyone interested, here's the log: (I didn't add the previous conversation that Helz replied to that started it all, as I don't think it's relevant.
Helz MU Ban.zip

Realistically though, you could have even just joined the discord server with an anonymous "non claimed" account?

-After the fact conversations on the issue by the community were cut off. Multiple citing the banned (me) should/can email the moderators to discuss the issue. I then reported myself again saying if I have that right I would like to exercise it and that was straight up ignored.
-Superjack then argued with them enough on the issue they finally gave him the email address to give to me (muheadmod@gmail.com) and when I emailed them and explained my position I was told "We aren’t interested in discussing your opinions further. It’s about people being offended by what you’re saying and what their interpretation of your words is, not what your intention behind the words may be."

Yeah...
Me personally, I doubt the sincerity of a decision when it's prohibited to be taken under scrutiny. Talking about bans is allowed only in private with the mods, but when at least I try - "I'm not going to discuss this" is the response you get.
They're far from perfect, though I can see the practical aspect of it just due to the sheer amount that they have moderate they should draw a line somewhere?

-I then pointed out how the definition of racism is 'prejudiced or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group', how in multiple respects this definition does not fit even given their own responses and how if their ban qualifications are 'bigoted or racist' and I am neither that the punishment should not apply. I never got a response

I guarantee you, if Amy for example responded to this - her response would be one word: rationalizations. Because that's what she said after you were gone, which I believe you can see in that zip file above.

-Ossie spoke with them on my behalf and although I was not allowed to speak in my defense or given any context to the statements they declared racist they did admit to intentionally denying me an appeal because they thought I was a troll. I do not see how that is possible given I wrote articles for MU (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...-%28by-Helz%29) and had worked with them to establish cross community games with 0 infractions over many years but I suppose they had to justify their behavior somehow.

Here it's pretty obvious that they were acting hasty and never even thought about it twice?
You shouldn't take this personally, that they banned you on an impulse and actively decided to never look back, because I do believe that they have to do that in some cases to keep their sanity due to the volumes that they have to moderate. I'd even guess that they've even made it a regular habit because of it.

-At this point I have probably asked them 10+ times if I would be allowed to publish that article I have been working on for years with no response which is just petty. Simply having some balls and saying no is something I could at least respect rather than waiting to see how good it is before voicing some moral / ethical grounds.

This is just low, ngl.
Literally their only incentive against this is because it might make them look bad that they banned someone credible? My guess is that they just don't take you serious tbh. Try again when you've got the article ready?

All that said- I would appreciate either poking them to just follow their established process or telling me I am genuinely wrong so I can stop loosing sleep over this issue. I am really sick of feeling like shit over this and its not even about a video game.

I've provided the discussion that got you banned, though didn't add the previous discussion to which you were originally replying to.
You can try and ask for a honest feedback from other people that are not MU staff or their agreeing regulars. As for myself, the text wasn't even understandable to me - so I can't even begin to try and judge it.

[OzyWho]

"We aren’t interested in discussing your opinions further. It’s about people being offended by what you’re saying and what their interpretation of your words is, not what your intention behind the words may be."

I swear I called it somewhere

[OzyWho]

[02-Apr-21 12:39 PM] Helz#8260 On the most basic level- Asian culture glorifys academic success. African American culture glorifys sucess in sports [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Mixolydia#8907 how does that relate to prison populations [02-Apr-21 12:40 PM] Helz#8260 Compare the same cultural drives with crime culture

For judging only this, which caused the ban, I want to share a personal story. Not really story though..
In my small town that I grew up - it was glorified the idea to beat up anyone who's not from around here.
It's not as bad anymore as it used to be, but well over half a century - if anyone visited our town to party or something, they'd be beat up for no other reason than for not being from around. I remember a bunch of 12 year olds waiting for a foreign kids volleyball team to get out in order to beat them up. They didn't, they chickened out, but that's how glorified the whole idea was.

Gang culture is s thing in America AFAIK, and due to history and economics - it's mostly minority groups.

Denying how growing up in different place makes you a different person, and calling such an idea as bigotry - I think is not very rational.

Having said that, I wouldn't call that "debate" chat a debate. Idk what it was, but it wasn't debate. One side spoke incomprehensible and with imho bad argumentation, the other I don't think tried to understand (not really at least).

[rumox]

lets bash em

[Helz]

I could have told you that beforehand. Ohh wait.. I did.
But tbh, this makes sense for their ever-lasting "zero tolerance on bigotry".

But was it bigotry though? Idk. I never bothered to look into it due to how incomprehensible the text is for me personally. But a thing of note here is that everyone who bothered commenting on it agreed that it was. Everyone except me and SJ - and I didn't even read.

"I was banned under a zero tolerance*policy for racism and bigotry.
For a statement to be racist it must be prejudiced or hateful towards*a race
[02-Apr-21 12:03 PM] Helz#8260
Lower brackets of socioeconomic status in Europe for Caucations hold every bit as much of a ratio in prison as american jails do for African Americans

[02-Apr-21 12:03 PM] Helz#8260
Its not racial, Its cultural*

My statements*were taken as hateful towards*African Americans but you can clearly see here its*not a racial openion. I very flatly say "Its not racial, its cultural." I was cut off while typing but was about to post drunken ramblings on how systemic racism was created by laws being passed which targeted African Americans. To say that does not exist is to say that segregation never happened and that the entire field of cultural criminology is hateful.
For a statement*to be bigotry*it must be obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief or opinion. Any time I enter a discussion I am open to changing my view (which is the entire point of having it in the first place)
[02-Apr-21 12:28 PM] Helz#8260
Am I wrong? If I am please tell me why

[02-Apr-21 12:28 PM] Helz#8260
I am making points with reasoning

[02-Apr-21 12:28 PM] Helz#8260
I would like to see some reasoning to why my points should be invalidated

This is clearly reflected in chat. I genuinely was asking for feedback and interacting in a channel designated for such discussions. I did so in good faith and in the belief I was acting within the rules and regulations of the community and had no intention of spreading hate.
I would again ask you to consider my ban. I do not understand why I was treated as a 'troll' and intentionally withheld access to this chat or why I have not been afforded*the opportunity to speak in my defence sense its been acknowledged*that I am not if there is no bias but I strongly believe the actions taken against me are not in line with the letter or the spirit of your rules. I am not asking for any favors, I am only asking you to follow the established process and finally give me an appeal. I do not believe its possible to maintain that my statements were hateful unless you take them without regard*for context. Even if you feel my words are terrible I am at worst very ignorant and not hateful or bigoted.
R/S
Helz"

Sent that. The chat log you gave started mid way though the conversation but I appreciate it. Maybe I have lost more marbles than I thought if everyone sees my position as hateful but I dont. I genuinely do not see how a good faith examination of the situation can draw that conclusion though.

And if I really am just an ignorant un-woke racist why shut down conversation on the subject to the community? Why intentionally avoid giving me an email to appeal or try to write me off as a troll? If I am a racist and they are correct they should be justified in their actions and not ashamed to speak on the subject.

I guess what finally drove me to make this thread is that I am tired of loosing sleep on the subject. I can not play a game of mafia or work on my guide without getting a sick fucked up feeling and getting upset. One of my many flaws as a person is that I never let things go and this is a much bigger deal to me than it should be. Im honestly going to keep fucking with this until the day I die on principal and my life is worse off for it being a thing.

I do appreciate you spending a bit of time on the issue though. The absolute disregard and apathy show by the MU mods disgusts me and I can not help but wonder how many other people have been railroaded like this. If I am not genuinely being treated differently their moderation culture is really fucked up. At the end of the day mods are not the community, they just exist to protect the community and although I love many respects of MU that attitude is something that has kept me out of it.

[rumox]

i get what you were saying and i get why they got triggered. what i am saying next is based on shit happening half a world away, same shit but different.

imo the thing that exacerbates incarceration isn't black culture in large (or any races culture), it's just straight up being poor with no education which puts people in positions where they have to resort to thuggery. it just so happens black people are disproportionately more poor so they get blasted into the limelight. i see this on basically a decade cycle because of my towns economic booms/recession (industrial town, currently "booming" due to a hydrogen plant being constructed). When it's doing bad and rent is cheap, scum of all races come crawling out of the wood works.

[rumox]

culture does have a hand in it, but i wouldn't put it at the forefront basically. they are still incredibly retarded for their reaction

[Helz]

Looks like there was a rule specifically stating you could not kick someone from the discord for what happens in the debate channel at the time of my ban. Maybe I should have focused that more given Dyachei likes to act like a robot.

[Helz]

i get what you were saying and i get why they got triggered. what i am saying next is based on shit happening half a world away, same shit but different.

imo the thing that exacerbates incarceration isn't black culture in large (or any races culture), it's just straight up being poor with no education which puts people in positions where they have to resort to thuggery. it just so happens black people are disproportionately more poor so they get blasted into the limelight. i see this on basically a decade cycle because of my towns economic booms/recession (industrial town, currently "booming" due to a hydrogen plant being constructed). When it's doing bad and rent is cheap, scum of all races come crawling out of the wood works.

I do agree with you. Opportunity is a large driving factor for any individual. I feel like it would be a topic for serious discussion/debate. Although our mods actually use their brains I am not sure about holding a conversation on systemic racism in the FM section of the forum.

[OzyWho]

The chat log you gave started mid way though the conversation but I appreciate it.

I mean, if you wish I can send you from when https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41692593 was posted like over 36h earlier. But it talked about Pearson, books, information, voting, politics. I really don't see the relevance though.

You did say "I desperately need to just go to sleep at this point, but I feel the need to point out how religions and power structures are two very different things" just before you left in that convo. But it's like 26 hours earlier and the only related on the topic post.
I really feel like the convo that was 26-36h before when this convo started is an entirely different one.

[OzyWho]

I can not help but wonder how many other people have been railroaded like this. If I am not genuinely being treated differently their moderation culture is really fucked up.

In the sense of bypassing their own rule about not banning from site (or discord itself if discord general rules have been followed) for what happens in #debate - you're not the first.
In the sense of denying an appeal - I don't see how you could be. They'd need more staff for appeals to become manageable, and I've never heard of an appeal going through if such has happened (though I'm relatively new?). At least imho.

At the end of the day mods are not the community, they just exist to protect the community and although I love many respects of MU that attitude is something that has kept me out of it.

It wasn't just the mods agreeing. Everyone (from MU) who bothered commenting on it, on either forums or discord, agreed with the mods.
I have doubts how many of them checked up on anything, as they looked eager to just trash on someone, but it was community consensus nevertheless. At least judging by the few who voiced their opinions (which was more people than mods ftr).

[Helz]

I mean, if you wish I can send you from when https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41692593 was posted like over 36h earlier. But it talked about Pearson, books, information, voting, politics. I really don't see the relevance though.

You did say "I desperately need to just go to sleep at this point, but I feel the need to point out how religions and power structures are two very different things" just before you left in that convo. But it's like 26 hours earlier and the only related on the topic post.
I really feel like the convo that was 26-36h before when this convo started is an entirely different one.

I was specifically looking for the statements they grabbed out of context. Although the ignored my point on Caucasian Europeans they grabbed every mention of a racial stereotype to call me a racist. I was exhausted and very drunk but I very specifically remember mentioning the stereotypes in the context of them not being racial but cultural in nature and flatly saying so immediately before or after the statement.

Although I do not think it really matters. As frustrating as it is I just do not think they have any intention of looking at the situation. In my opinion calling someone a racist is the worst thing you can say about someone short of a pedophile or a rapist. Its not about a video game or a community to me. Regardless of if I am ignorant, insensitive or flatly wrong I held that conversation in good faith in the area it was suppose to be held. They circumvented rules established to prevent punishments from carrying over to other parts of the site and I went from having 0 infractions to being permabanned without a single warning.

If the issue was that they truly thought I was a racist it could be resolved but they just flatly do not give a shit. One thing I have been obsessing over is why. I never had any personal problems with any of them. It just does not make sense to me why they intentionally avoided giving me access to the muheadmod@gmail.com email while shutting down the communities discussion of the issue and telling them I had access to it.

I get that communities can self regulate as they see fit but MU has a duty to the global community because they host the championship. They should be held to a standard in my opinion.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Mandatory disclaimer: This is my position only, not the staff's position. Although you can see where I stand on the matter, this engages noone but me and does not represent SC2 Mafia's views as a whole in any way or form.

Reason cannot argue with feelings unless it has a root in the interlocutor's feelings, i.e. unless the reasoning person knows the person acting strongly on feelings enough to create the wish to have a rational discussion. That is not your case here, sadly. It was clearly stated that they don't care about what you said, but rather about how others perceived it. Thus, without regard to who's right or wrong here, arguing with them is very probably pointless, so you should cross that off your to-do list :P.

I disagree with the stance about "Asian culture" and the like that got you banned, btw. I think you're oversimplifying and that such continental cultures simply don't exist. And eventually, what you're saying does lead to saying "black culture", assuming such a thing even exists, glorifies crime, i.e. that black people are inherently more criminal than others not because of factors external to themselves (socio-economic factors), but because of their very mentality associated to the "black mindset" or something like that. And that... is absolutely racist lol. I'm not saying that's what you meant, but I'm saying that's what it leads to.

But - and that is a massive but - when it comes to permabanning someone without warning for saying something that eventually leads to a racist point of view when they probably didn't even realize it, that's a massive red flag in my moderator and human heart. I would say it's their right as long as their community supports it, though, and it seems to be the case... I would say that, but only if they weren't the platform for cross-community events and home to the Championship. That makes them not a simple harmonious, homogeneous commune enforcing self-preservation rules, but rather something alike to a totalitarian state of FM. Of course, this is a bit of an exaggeration because it's not real life, but the principle remains. So, as a conclusion: this situation is sad. But there's not much we can do about it.

I do think you could ask to simply be unbanned and pledge not to talk about politics there anymore, though. That could work if all you want is to be able to play there.
Personally, I don't play on MU anymore unless I'm invited to a game in some way or form, because while I can understand the wish of having a safe space, it simply doesn't attract me, since I like freedom of thought, speech, and debate. That's also an option to consider if you just want to sleep at night, if I may suggest.

[oops_ur_dead]

Disclaimer: I am speaking for the entirety of staff here. The opinions in my post are necessarily the opinions of each individual staff member.

It was kinda cringe to ban you for that, but I can see why they were pissed. The problem is that, with your argument (romanticization of crime in black culture leads to their plight) there can be one of two conclusions as to the source of said cultural values:

1) Black culture includes so-called criminal elements because of previous disadvantages, due to elements outside of their control (most likely past racism and disenfranchisement)

2) Black culture includes so-called criminal elements because of innate inferiorities causing said ideas, either due to disadvantage because of innate lack of intelligence, or some innate predisposition to crime.

Number 2 is quite clearly racist. I don't think anyone sane would argue against that, and I don't really want to entertain dumbass arguments about how it's not racist to say black people are genetically inferior to other races. The problem is, though I don't know the context or the rest of the argument, the people you were arguing with were probably of the opinion that number 1 is the case. Which unfortunately, implicitly sided you with people making the second argument, otherwise why would you be arguing this point?

Not that I do think you're racist, but that the type of arguments you make, regardless of their truthfulness, tend to imply a certain viewpoint. Whether you think that's right or whatever is up to you.

[Oberon]

Disclaimer: My opinion’s reflect those of every user on the website (especially Marshmallow Marshall’s). The entire site speaks through me.

Black culture doesn’t cause crime. That’s kinda like saying video games promote violence and aggression. It’s just that poor people are more likely to commit crime, and many blacks are poor in America. Saying it’s a part of their culture is a bit meh. You could go as far as arguing that rap encourages ppl to join gangs, and that’s just as ridiculous IMO.

That being said, while I do think it’s a little racist to make that point, banning people for that reason is a huge overreaction IMO. ‘Retarded’ comes to mind as a term

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Disclaimer: My opinion’s reflect those of every user on the website (especially Marshmallow Marshall’s). The entire site speaks through me.

Black culture doesn’t cause crime. That’s kinda like saying video games promote violence and aggression. It’s just that poor people are more likely to commit crime, and many blacks are poor in America. Saying it’s a part of their culture is a bit meh. You could go as far as arguing that rap encourages ppl to join gangs, and that’s just as ridiculous IMO.

That being said, while I do think it’s a little racist to make that point, banning people for that reason is a huge overreaction IMO. ‘Retarded’ comes to mind as a term

Lmao <3

Exactly this. There's also that the term "black culture" is inaccurate, because being black doesn't come with a specific culture. If you're talking about specific cultural groups in some parts of the US composed of Afro-Americans, then that's different, because those things do exist. But saying they encourage crime and putting that as a cause of crime rates doesn't make sense, since those people have been discriminated pretty heavily since the creation of the US, and even though things are getting much better now, the weight of centuries of discrimination (and partly of literal slavery) certainly doesn't help.

Also, I just realized this was in FM Discussion. Moved it to General Discussion since it really has nothing to do with FM on the site and more to do with other sites and politics (not because it's not relevant or w/e).

[Helz]

Something that keeps getting misinterpreted about the point I made is the idea of what a crime is.

It is one thing to say a culture causes people to do a crime- like rob a store or sell drugs

It is something totally different to say laws were created that made normal behaviors a crime. In sociology there are Norms, Taboos and Laws. Naturally Laws are made to enforce punishments on behaviors that are taboo but when they are instead enforced on norms it does not equate crime with immoral or unethical behavior. The most overt example is segregation.

Cultural criminology is an entire field of study that deals with what a 'crime' means to the individual. When norms are punished it doesnt equate to the individual being immoral but rather the system being immoral.

Probably the wrong place to say this but I feel like people are looking at my statements and thinking I am suggesting something in individuals culture make them more likely to have immoral or unethical behavior which is just not the case.

I feel a little better after making this thread. Something I realized is that more than access to a game or a community what I really felt I lost when I was banned was my credibility. I think thats why it feels a little better to talk about it. MU did ban me but they very intentionally have shut down conversation on the issue while also making me look like something I consider the most reprehensible beliefs that exist. It made me question how far gone I am and if I am something I hate on a basic level.

Its been nice to see how many people and communities have reached out to me but I really do feel like something is very wrong within the mafia community. The amount of people who have expressed overt fear of even being seen to say something negative about MU is pretty crazy. The majority of the conversations I have start with people requesting I never mention their name with their thoughts. Its an intentional culture of fear mongering which is just stupid. This is a video game people play to relax and meet friends but somehow they created a power structure and weaponized it to the point most people are afraid to even publicly say when they think they made a poor decision. Thats pretty fucking crazy on a very basic level and acting like it is normal is itself wrong.

I don't think anything will change in my situation. But something should change in how the global community is afraid to even speak about the site that hosts the championships.

If anyone from MU ever reads this as a human being I would like to convey a very sincere fuck you. Labeling someone a racist without giving a fuck if they are or not is really shitty. Shutting down community discussion on the issue while pretending you are following established rules is disgusting. Making your community afraid to even talk about your judgement as a moderator of a video game is ridiculous and the community deserves better.

[OzyWho]

But something should change in how the global community is afraid to even speak about the site that hosts the championships.

I mean, me personally, I don't care about the champs and dislike how we have had most of our reps go because they were voted and felt like they had to, not because they wanted to.
The first 3 reps stopped playing FM basically immediately after their champs game if not mistaken?
I'd prefer to not vote or suggest anyone next years before they themselves say that they want to go. I'm glad that this year's reps were both interested themselves.

[ZZorange]

Something that keeps getting misinterpreted about the point I made is the idea of what a crime is.

It is one thing to say a culture causes people to do a crime- like rob a store or sell drugs

It is something totally different to say laws were created that made normal behaviors a crime. In sociology there are Norms, Taboos and Laws. Naturally Laws are made to enforce punishments on behaviors that are taboo but when they are instead enforced on norms it does not equate crime with immoral or unethical behavior. The most overt example is segregation.

Cultural criminology is an entire field of study that deals with what a 'crime' means to the individual. When norms are punished it doesnt equate to the individual being immoral but rather the system being immoral.

Probably the wrong place to say this but I feel like people are looking at my statements and thinking I am suggesting something in individuals culture make them more likely to have immoral or unethical behavior which is just not the case.

I feel a little better after making this thread. Something I realized is that more than access to a game or a community what I really felt I lost when I was banned was my credibility. I think thats why it feels a little better to talk about it. MU did ban me but they very intentionally have shut down conversation on the issue while also making me look like something I consider the most reprehensible beliefs that exist. It made me question how far gone I am and if I am something I hate on a basic level.

Its been nice to see how many people and communities have reached out to me but I really do feel like something is very wrong within the mafia community. The amount of people who have expressed overt fear of even being seen to say something negative about MU is pretty crazy. The majority of the conversations I have start with people requesting I never mention their name with their thoughts. Its an intentional culture of fear mongering which is just stupid. This is a video game people play to relax and meet friends but somehow they created a power structure and weaponized it to the point most people are afraid to even publicly say when they think they made a poor decision. Thats pretty fucking crazy on a very basic level and acting like it is normal is itself wrong.

I don't think anything will change in my situation. But something should change in how the global community is afraid to even speak about the site that hosts the championships.

If anyone from MU ever reads this as a human being I would like to convey a very sincere fuck you. Labeling someone a racist without giving a fuck if they are or not is really shitty. Shutting down community discussion on the issue while pretending you are following established rules is disgusting. Making your community afraid to even talk about your judgement as a moderator of a video game is ridiculous and the community deserves better.

Yep that's the thing a lot of people dont get at first glance. It's not the ban itself but the being labelled as something you aren't that stings. These MU guys sound like some real characters.

[OzyWho]

Something that keeps getting misinterpreted...

By now I think it should be clear that it's your fault?

Whenever there's a misinterpretation, I feel like it's the responsibility of the one talking to prevent that. That's my general take that some agree and others disagree. But in this scenario a large majority seemed to not get you, even here on SC2Mafia. Yes? Idk because it's still too complicated all for me.

I wish to point you towards Importance of Simplification, again.
Especially:
Sometimes we inadvertently write sentences that can be interpreted in more than one way. When something's written in simple manner, there's less chance for ambiguity.

Tbh, I personally would appreciate if you provided specific examples to go along with your future statements. Like "The most overt example is segregation." is not a specific example. For all I know you're pulling it out of your rear.
Or this "When norms are punished it doesnt equate to the individual being immoral but rather the system being immoral." - it literally doesn't tell me anything and idk wtf you're talking about.
Similarly to how in your "debate" you link to a study link but fail to give any form of summary of how you came to your inference. How's anyone to take it serious and not nefarious? Even now idk how a study that speaks about "Social categorization occurs spontaneously, without much thought to our part" to you doing a social categorization yourself.

While on the topic, pulling a Jordan Peterson doesn't give you credibility either. It loses you it.

I just can't stress the importance of speaking understandable enough.

[OzyWho]

Tbh, I personally would appreciate if you provided specific examples to go along with your future statements. Like "The most overt example is segregation." is not a specific example. For all I know you're pulling it out of your rear.

I stopped being lazy and googled it. My amazing deduction skills figured out googling "segregation law".

It's:
De jure segregation mandated the separation of races by law, and was the form imposed by slave codes before the Civil War and by Black Codes and Jim Crow laws following the war. De jure segregation was outlawed by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Fair Housing Act of 1968.

Ok what the actual fuck? It's a law over half a century old. How the F is it remotely relevant to the topic of today's prison population and culture influence on it?

[OzyWho]

People listening to you aren't supposed to follow your inferences magically out of thin air dude..

[Helz]

By now I think it should be clear that it's your fault?

Whenever there's a misinterpretation, I feel like it's the responsibility of the one talking to prevent that. That's my general take that some agree and others disagree. But in this scenario a large majority seemed to not get you, even here on SC2Mafia. Yes? Idk because it's still too complicated all for me.

I wish to point you towards Importance of Simplification, again.
Especially:
Sometimes we inadvertently write sentences that can be interpreted in more than one way. When something's written in simple manner, there's less chance for ambiguity.

Tbh, I personally would appreciate if you provided specific examples to go along with your future statements. Like "The most overt example is segregation." is not a specific example. For all I know you're pulling it out of your rear.
Or this "When norms are punished it doesnt equate to the individual being immoral but rather the system being immoral." - it literally doesn't tell me anything and idk wtf you're talking about.
Similarly to how in your "debate" you link to a study link but fail to give any form of summary of how you came to your inference. How's anyone to take it serious and not nefarious? Even now idk how a study that speaks about "Social categorization occurs spontaneously, without much thought to our part" to you doing a social categorization yourself.

While on the topic, pulling a Jordan Peterson doesn't give you credibility either. It loses you it.

I just can't stress the importance of speaking understandable enough.

Uhh.. I am not even sure where to start with this one.

Segregation laws were laws making it criminal to do basic stuff. Like "Being black and dating a white woman"

My point that calling that a crime does not make the individual immoral but rather the system is pretty clear. I can provide specific examples but I feel like its kinda stupid for me to do so. I am making a very valid and clear position here about how saying something is a crime does not mean its derogatory to the individual while also pointing out that my argument was not hateful to a racial group simply because I was arguing that systemic racism created through laws was itself immoral.

If you would like I could go grab some law books and dig some stuff up for you but honestly.. just.. wtf dude? I do not understand why you keep reframing the issue as irrational or that the entirety of the MU community supports it. If its a big deal to you I can PM you on the subject in a few weeks when I am back from work but I think there is a very real issue going on here.

[OzyWho]

Uhh.. I am not even sure where to start with this one.

Segregation laws were laws making it criminal to do basic stuff. Like "Being black and dating a white woman"

My point that calling that a crime does not make the individual immoral but rather the system is pretty clear. I can provide specific examples but I feel like its kinda stupid for me to do so. I am making a very valid and clear position here about how saying something is a crime does not mean its derogatory to the individual while also pointing out that my argument was not hateful to a racial group simply because I was arguing that systemic racism created through laws was itself immoral.

If you would like I could go grab some law books and dig some stuff up for you but honestly.. just.. wtf dude? I do not understand why you keep reframing the issue as irrational or that the entirety of the MU community supports it. If its a big deal to you I can PM you on the subject in a few weeks when I am back from work but I think there is a very real issue going on here.

I hope your confusion about my confusion will motivate you to speak more understandable in the future. Nobody is out to get you.

Just to be clear, that mention of a law that was 60 years ago - is it supposed to address anything that MM or Oberon or oops said? As far as I understand, they're addressing the "black culture makes you go to prison" argument? I don't think a law from 60 years ago is relevant if so.

[Helz]

I hope your confusion about my confusion will motivate you to speak more understandable in the future. Nobody is out to get you.

Just to be clear, that mention of a law that was 60 years ago - is it supposed to address anything that MM or Oberon or oops said? As far as I understand, they're addressing the "black culture makes you go to prison" argument? I don't think a law from 60 years ago is relevant if so.

Yeah. I do not understand the relevance of making my point look less rational based on the time line but when speaking about a concept of systemic racism and referencing how laws were weaponized against a race within a society it is relevant. Shift the level of how overtly its used and you get a recipe for disparity in prison populations.

Put that in context to my statements and my voiced position can be better understood. Unless you believe racism in laws went from obligating who someone could date or what pubic drinking fountain they could use to not existing at all its logical there was some level of de-escalation and such laws still exist that are not... however old it takes to invalidate my point.

I am not sure if gaslighting me makes MU look better but I can say I do not appreciate it. I acknowledge my issues with mental health but flatly stating inappropriate action was taken against me by a community does not equate to irrational paranoia and framing it as such is not classy. Be careful with crossing that line man. Although I do view you as a friend if you choose to keep going down that road I doubt its going to look good for either you or MU. I can accept that my judgment is clouded by emotion but I do not think any reasonable mind would say I got a fair shake in line with community guidelines.

Refusing to give me the email to make an appeal was intentional
Ignoring a rule that prevents carrying punishments from their debate chat into other areas of the site was intentional
Saying they 'thought I was a troll' does not add up given my history as a member making guides and coordinating cross community events
Shutting down community discussions while saying its up to me to talk to them was some two faced shit
Ignoring everything I said to them and just quoting my words out of context while refusing to give me the chat log prevented me from even having grounds for a fair appeal

At the end of the day Perma banning me from everything with years of being a good standing member while shutting down conversation on the issue from myself to them or from the community on the subject and preventing an appeal reflects bias. If we carry your logic forward and I am just a paranoid loony who is being told what he wants to hear by multiple communities and nothing is wrong what justifies any one of those individual actions by MU?

[Oberon]

I think they were not necessarily, at least not initially, out to get you specifically. MU is a community of snowflakes so to them anyone who says what you said would instantly be racist and a reactionary or whatever other term they can come up with in their rebel teenager minds that turns you into an oppressor and they basically yeet you out without even thinking about it.

That being said, I do wonder whether or not the knowledge that you wrote articles for them might have influenced them and actually predisposed them negatively towards you. I’m not necessarily thinking about the mods here but a lot of the people there are actually downright retarded (this is not simply an insult. they simply aren’t that bright) and I would not be surprised at all if they felt envious of what you wrote there. You tend to make references to scientific and psychological concepts when you talk about the game so it makes me wonder if they didn’t feel outclassed and just wanted to ban you for that exact reason.

[OzyWho]

I still don't see how a law from 60 years ago affects the prison populations today.

Don't you really see how many inferences one has to make to even attempt to follow your thoughts process? Either that or I'm more dumb than I ever realized.

I'm sorry that my best efforts of advising to speak understandably fell on deaf ears.

[Helz]

I still don't see how a law from 60 years ago affects the prison populations today.

Don't you really see how many inferences one has to make to even attempt to follow your thoughts process? Either that or I'm more dumb than I ever realized.

I'm sorry that my best efforts of advising to speak understandably fell on deaf ears.

Yeah. I have trouble in some respects with conveying how I made connections.

Racist people made laws making natural behavior criminal for specific races
Natural behavior forced to be criminal is not immoral or unethical
The example of segregation outlines that overtly
My words in MU debate were about how crime culture results in a measurable disparity in racial distribution of prison populations
This is more understandable as not racist when you consider its resulting from laws targeting cultural of predominate racial distributions
It is logical to recognize that such laws did not go from overtly existing to not existing at all

Sorry if I am terrible at connecting thoughts sometimes. Maybe its not great that I spend so much time in my own head and translating between the things I think and how to understand how I think can be a bit much. Hopefully that makes the connection

[OzyWho]

Those racist laws are no longer a thing. Segregation law is a law of the past. How do they affect today?

And to be safe, it was supposed to address #18, #19, #20 - correct?

[Helz]

Those racist laws are no longer a thing. Segregation law is a law of the past. How do they affect today?

And to be safe, it was supposed to address #18, #19, #20 - correct?

I did not write it in response to those posts but yes, I felt my position was not understood.

In relation to how it effects us today its an issue of systemic racism. How the systems that govern how society functions favor races on a basic level. You should differentiate what objectively exists vs my world view given this conversation is all about my world view but as to what objectively exists you can google it easy enough. In practice my understanding is that its exercised within sentencing.

https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPa...iv=4&id=&page=
Decent point on the subject although its on the federal level while atrocities are more commonly committed on the state level.

You could also just look at the 'Guilty of being poor' movement and everything thats focused on within our society. If you want to take a deep dive into either issue might be worth a separate topic but these are very valid issues that genuinely exist in American society now and not 60 years ago.

[yzb25]

That treatment is gross as hell. As someone who appears so passionate about mafia and the mafia community, getting thrown under the bus for short term convenience like that must be terrible. It seems they purely care about silencing the issue and avoiding any kind of conflict. I sincerely wish you the best in finding a resolution to this, or at least some way of making the situation better than it is right now.

I don't see why people are diverging so heavily away from the conduct of the mods into the specifics of the opinions actually being discussed. Unless you believe the views Helz shared actually are racist, grotesque or violate their Ts and Cs in some way, it's not really relevant. The judgement doesn't become more or less fair if the opinion is "correct" or "well-argued".

Whether the views can be feasibly misconstrued as racist is somewhat more relevant, but still only matters to the initial judgement. The subsequent denial of an appeal and lying to the community about giving Helz the e-mail is extremely cynical and clearly implies the community isn't just oversensitive but genuinely callous to the contributions of dedicated members, with no serious respect given to those who fall out of the "clique". Their "process" seems more about keeping up appearances than addressing misunderstandings and brash judgements or rehabilitating raucous members.

I know this has been going on for many months now and I don't think you (Helz) pursuing this for so long is good for your health. You may hate to hear this, but pragmatically it doesn't make sense to keep fighting unless you think you can achieve a different outcome. But it's your life, and I wish you the best of luck whatever you choose to do.

[OzyWho]

I don't see why people are diverging so heavily away from the conduct of the mods into the specifics of the opinions actually being discussed. Unless you believe the views Helz shared actually are racist, grotesque or violate their Ts and Cs in some way, it's not really relevant. The judgement doesn't become more or less fair if the opinion is "correct" or "well-argued".

If people could stop giving support's on blind faith, that'd be great.
First there were 100+ posts on discord+forums agreeing with the MU mods, a witch hunt after Helz and his supporters.
Now there's witch hunt after MU mods.
On both sides most didn't bother looking into anything, just taking the word of whomever they're supporting.

I myself need the case to be put under scrutiny before I support either.
My own interpretation is in #7, however I said I don't understand most of what was even said.
Now as it stands, thanks to #18+#19+#20, it seems that even the people here share the same interpretation as the mods on MU? Which atm is the majority of people looking into it themselves?
Combine that with Helz not replying to them, and it's objective to support the ban?

I can't agree with the aftermath of it all though - that lost the MU mods credibility for me.

I wish Helz to take care of his mental health.
I wish others to not go on blind faith witch-hunts. Though I suppose that's what communities do, judging by both MU and SC2Mafia?

[WrathCyber]

If people could stop giving support's on blind faith, that'd be great.
First there were 100+ posts on discord+forums agreeing with the MU mods, a witch hunt after Helz and his supporters.
Now there's witch hunt after MU mods.
On both sides most didn't bother looking into anything, just taking the word of whomever they're supporting.

I myself need the case to be put under scrutiny before I support either.
My own interpretation is in #7, however I said I don't understand most of what was even said.
Now as it stands, thanks to #18+#19+#20, it seems that even the people here share the same interpretation as the mods on MU? Which atm is the majority of people looking into it themselves?
Combine that with Helz not replying to them, and it's objective to support the ban?

I can't agree with the aftermath of it all though - that lost the MU mods credibility for me.

I wish Helz to take care of his mental health.
I wish others to not go on blind faith witch-hunts. Though I suppose that's what communities do, judging by both MU and SC2Mafia?

Witch hunts? Just another day in the mod for town.

[yzb25]

If people could stop giving support's on blind faith, that'd be great.
First there were 100+ posts on discord+forums agreeing with the MU mods, a witch hunt after Helz and his supporters.
Now there's witch hunt after MU mods.
On both sides most didn't bother looking into anything, just taking the word of whomever they're supporting.

I myself need the case to be put under scrutiny before I support either.
My own interpretation is in #7, however I said I don't understand most of what was even said.
Now as it stands, thanks to #18+#19+#20, it seems that even the people here share the same interpretation as the mods on MU? Which atm is the majority of people looking into it themselves?
Combine that with Helz not replying to them, and it's objective to support the ban?

I can't agree with the aftermath of it all though - that lost the MU mods credibility for me.

I wish Helz to take care of his mental health.
I wish others to not go on blind faith witch-hunts. Though I suppose that's what communities do, judging by both MU and SC2Mafia?

I'm not advocating for "cancelling" or "witch-hunting" anyone, nor do I have the power too, if I'm who you have in mind here. I'm not taking it on blind faith, I've read the chat before. I suppose I don't have "evidence" helz didn't actually receive an e-mail address and SJ needed to poke for it. Is that what you mean by "blind faith"?

Yes, people should make an effort to speak clearly to avoid misunderstandings. And Helz shouldn't have had an argument while drunk. I think that's reasonable. But a ban with no recourse for appeal is clearly not a proportionate response. Both of those things can be true, and the dude isn't crazy for thinking he's been shafted here lol.

If I seem too hardline and am just adding fuel to the fire, I'll stay out of it, because I'm evidently exacerbating your concerns regarding a "witch hunt" here. But I must say I think your concern for the mods is extremely misplaced. We're a tiny community lamenting an injustice. We couldn't witch hunt a cucumber.

[Oberon]

Tbh this thread feels like its devolved into a pissing match. Is Ozy saying Helz is racist or is he saying that it was right to ban Helz? I can’t even tell. I feel that everything that was to be said has been said though. TL;DR saying culture -> crime is wrong, banning ppl for saying that is retarded.

[Oberon]

On the topic of witchhunting: Helz is actually not the only guy to claim ppl baited him into saying things to get him banned. There was a guy in Skwirl (DS.) about a year back who said pretty much the same thing

[oops_ur_dead]

yeet

I'm actually even more confused about Helz's point now that he clarified it lmao. I thought he was just saying "black people are more likely to go to prison because black culture includes glorification of crime" without understanding or elaborating the source of such glorification in the first place, which is fair enough but rather reductionist, but now the point is so convoluted that it makes even less sense. I absolutely do not understand the relevance of segregation and Jim Crow laws. I think it would be much more beneficial if you could explain it rather succinctly and try to keep yourself to maybe like 2 sentences or 50 words to make your point actually coherent.

[oops_ur_dead]

I actually agree with @Oberon just because I have no idea what anyone is arguing atm lmao.

[SuperJack]

I actually agree with @Oberon

*Bookmarked†

[SuperJack]

Tbh this thread feels like its devolved into a pissing match. Is Ozy saying Helz is racist or is he saying that it was right to ban Helz? I can’t even tell. I feel that everything that was to be said has been said though. TL;DR saying culture -> crime is wrong, banning ppl for saying that is retarded.

Ozy is taking both sides into account like a god and being fair.

[DJarJar]

Helz what you need to clarify is the usage of the term “black culture”. I don’t think anyone will disagree that the culture in gang-filled ghettos leads to a cycle of crime. But I do disagree with calling that “black culture”, even if a large percentage of black Americans live in such areas.

You yourself mentioned that things were similar for whites living in similar conditions in some European countries so I know you don’t equate it to being about race. And yet you still called it “black culture”, sort of contradicting yourself? “Asian culture glorifying academics” is just as problematic too. Japanese, Indians, Indonesians, and iraqis all have some united cultural drive to do well in academics? Again I get the stereotype you’re addressing but perhaps you just need to use some different wording?

[Firebringer]

Ozy is taking both sides into account like a god and being fair.

I don't think Ozy is being fair on regards to Helz not responding to mods? From my understanding all communication was unavailable for appealing before others made a hissy fit, so his critisism that "Helz not replying to them" is strange. Or is this on the initial conversation that started it all.

I don't know. Ozy writes in a way I don't always understand his points, and Helz points are all over the place in this thread that I don't understand what point he is trying to make. Arguments between the two don't even seem like they are in the same ballpark.

Anyways, all this is dumb. A permaban for this shit is extremely stupid. If saying how we all think the mods are clowns making bad decisions and probably shouldn't have power to make decisions if they are going to do things like this, is a witch hunt. idk

also ybz "We couldn't witch hunt a cucumber." lol, I will have you know I can witch hunt cucumbers very well. I turn them all into pickles.

[OzyWho]

I don't think Ozy is being fair on regards to Helz not responding to mods? From my understanding all communication was unavailable for appealing before others made a hissy fit, so his critisism that "Helz not replying to them" is strange. Or is this on the initial conversation that started it all.

I never talked about "Helz not responding to mods".

I don't know. Ozy writes in a way I don't always understand his points, and Helz points are all over the place in this thread that I don't understand what point he is trying to make. Arguments between the two don't even seem like they are in the same ballpark.

I agree.

[Unknown1234]

I actually agree with @Oberon just because I have no idea what anyone is arguing atm lmao.

This needs to be my real life motto.

[OzyWho]

Helz what you need to clarify is the usage of the term “black culture”. I don’t think anyone will disagree that the culture in gang-filled ghettos leads to a cycle of crime. But I do disagree with calling that “black culture”, even if a large percentage of black Americans live in such areas.

You yourself mentioned that things were similar for whites living in similar conditions in some European countries so I know you don’t equate it to being about race. And yet you still called it “black culture”, sort of contradicting yourself? “Asian culture glorifying academics” is just as problematic too. Japanese, Indians, Indonesians, and iraqis all have some united cultural drive to do well in academics? Again I get the stereotype you’re addressing but perhaps you just need to use some different wording?

First I thought that ammirus was right on point.
But on a second thought, this is only relevant for:

All that said- I would appreciate either poking them to just follow their established process or telling me I am genuinely wrong so I can stop loosing sleep over this issue. I am really sick of feeling like shit over this and its not even about a video game.

Which we now know, thanks to the first sentence in #34, that Helz would only be interested from the MU mods and not from aynone else. In retrospect - this makes a lot of my posting here irrelevant too.





So what do we got here in the end? Here's my summary:

1. A justified ban due to a combination of

1.1. "We aren’t interested in discussing your opinions further. It’s about people being offended by what you’re saying and what their interpretation of your words is, not what your intention behind the words may be." - which is well in line in 99% of their bans.
1.2. Majority here, of those who read the debate, having the same interpretation as the mods on MU

2. A questionable extent of the ban - arguably against their own established rules

3. A public humilation with out of context quotes combined with denying the ability to defend himself.
4. An inexcusable aftermath of the ban, with not even allowing for an appeal.

That's about it for me how I view this atm.
Having said that, I'll drop this topic for at least a while if not for forever. I'm feeling a dissonance and I'm quite certain I'm having a lack of objectivity in this now.

[Oberon]

I don’t think anyone has actually expressed agreement with Helz getting banned? Rumox and oops both disagreed with what Helz said and both yet said they were complete bitches for banning him.