covid 19 vaccine

[oops_ur_dead]

vaccine
no

[Brendan]

vaccine

[Frinckles]

i t

[Stealthbomber16]

[Plotato]

hqdefault.jpg

[Light_Yagami]

Vaccine

Oh Hell No.. They Can Give My Shots To Someone Else.

[Lumi]

how do i vote in this poll? im confused

[Voss]

Vaccine

Oh Hell No.. They Can Give My Shots To Someone Else.

This is new to me. Are they saying people that take the vaccine have side effects to people on anti psychotics?

[OzyWho]

This is new to me. Are they saying people that take the vaccine have side effects to people on anti psychotics?

It's 10 years old.
It's not talking about vaccines.

Featuring Chill EB - Psycho/pharma spends billions of dollars a year marketing mental 'disorders' & drugs for kids -- yet these drugs are documented by international drug regulatory agencies to cause mania, psychosis, hallucinations, suicide, violence, homicidal ideation, heart attack, stroke and death. What's more, they are being prescribed for psychiatric disorders that are simply a checklist of behaviors.

[Voss]

It's 10 years old.
First we should ask which vaccine they're talking about.

that was going to be my first question, but contextually i assumed the covid19 vaccine.

[OzyWho]

that was going to be my first question, but contextually i assumed the covid19 vaccine.

Yah idk why Light brought it in here tbh, I don't see the connection other than pharmacy industry can't be fully trusted. (not much news there though?)

[Voss]

I thought it might be fun to go down the rabbit hole and see the evidence trail

[yzb25]

how do i vote in this poll? im confused

I think these sorts of polls close quickly after opening. You gotta get your democracy in fast to be heard

[Marshmallow Marshall]

"democracy"

I believe I can vote right now, though. It's either because I'm an admin or because the poll simply isn't closed yet, I'm not sure. To vote, just pick a choice and click "Vote Now".

[Light_Yagami]

This is new to me. Are they saying people that take the vaccine have side effects to people on anti psychotics?

No Im Saiyan Dont Trust Big Pharma In General.. Thats Where The Vaccine Is From Right.. Places Like Pizer And J&J And So On..

[Light_Yagami]

It's 10 years old.
It's not talking about vaccines.

Even Thought Its Not Talking About Vaccines Big Pharma Is A Problem Opioids Some Vaccines.. Some Other Drugs.. Bad Okay Thats All.. All Medication Is Is Legal Drugs.. And Why Cant I Find Zinc In Stores Anymore.. The Supplement

[Voss]

Even Thought Its Not Talking About Vaccines Big Pharma Is A Problem Opioids Some Vaccines.. Some Other Drugs.. Bad Okay Thats All.. All Medication Is Is Legal Drugs.. And Why Cant I Find Zinc In Stores Anymore.. The Supplement

I'm not sure if I understood everything, but basically don't get the vaccine because:
- Big pharma created the vaccines
- Big pharma created opioids and other drugs
- Zinc, the supplement, isn't in stores anymore

What are your qualifications for giving this advice? Outstanding, extensive personal research?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I'm not sure if I understood everything, but basically don't get the vaccine because:
- Big pharma created the vaccines
- Big pharma created opioids and other drugs
- Zinc, the supplement, isn't in stores anymore

What are your qualifications for giving this advice? Outstanding, extensive personal research?

To be fair, big multinational pharmaceutical companies have too much power for private entities and too little restrictions, both financial and moral. But I will not pretend that is anything close to what Light is talking about... and I'm not sure what exactly he is talking about, actually.

[Voss]

To be fair, big multinational pharmaceutical companies have too much power for private entities and too little restrictions, both financial and moral. But I will not pretend that is anything close to what Light is talking about... and I'm not sure what exactly he is talking about, actually.

While I do not dispute the outsized power pharmaceuticals have, I do think it's a bit of a logical leap to say that we shouldn't get the vaccine bc of that. After all, the thread technically is about vaccines.

[OzyWho]

I thought it might be fun to go down the rabbit hole and see the evidence trail

I went down the rabbit hole for a total of like 1-2min by pressing the link in the description.

They claim that mental disorders don't exist because they can't be proven, and unreliable because the diagnosis go by a checklist.
>Both of those reasonings are correct: in psychology almost nothing can be proven (it's like a pseudoscience in that sense?), and diagnoses are done by checklists afaik. But I'm just not sure about the conclusion, especially since psychiatrists themselves seem to be on both side of the fences.

For the claim of psychiatric drugs dumbing down people, they provided proof is a link to a site where you can check up on the side effects of drugs.
>Side effects are indeed a thing, and there probably are medicines/drugs out there that are more bad than worth it. But we just have no way of knowing the extent of it - literally impossible for us imho.


Big pharmacy companies not being trustable is not exactly a new idea. But I'm not exactly aware of anything that points towards mallicious intent. The only times I know where they did damage was caused by either fallacious testing or doctors mistake.

I guess the closest that I know of where there might be mallicious is intent is the ongoing rumor wrt weed. How each time a big pharmacy company do a research to weed, their tests make it look bad, but when independent researches do it, they find positives to weed; and the former researches are anectdotaly bad. There's like infinite "documentries" on it though.

---

With regards to the topic of this thread though, here's my pov with it.
In the early 2020, the world health organization got together the best experts they could find and gave them infinite resources in order to come up with a "game plan" for the world so to speak.
That research was which basically all the countries based their actions on for the most part. I informed myself through it and thanks to that I knew in the early 202 that this pandemic would go on for years when most people still hoped or thought it'd last only for months.
The idea was to have the pandemic be on and off for multiple years to let the virus go through everyone in a controlled fashion. From the little superficial that I informed myself, I don't remember vaccines being talked about though. (but it might be, since I pretty much only cared for the summary so to speak)

This brings us more to the current day.
I observed some things:
-People pressuring their goverments, and in return the goverments/countries themselves ask for someone to release some sort of vaccine.
-Obviously thanks to the above, it was a race for the pharmaceutical companies for the money. (though, honestly, it's more the question of who becomes to bigger billionaire)
-There's some strange stuff going like Doctors being ordered to label a cause of death as Covid 19. (though it goes two ways, because many doctors have claimed that covid 19 causes of death have been under-counted due to a lack of tests)
-New laws come about that force vaccines on some people, like teachers. And indirectly forcing everyone due to all the restrictions they'd have otherwise.
-Some funny stuff like some doctors in my area themselves not vaccinating when they really should be lke the highest priority to do so, or how some nurses got caught not vaccinating but instead injecting them vitamins or sometihng like that / and they done it to hundreds. xD

Anyhow, after seeing many strange things, I decide to inform myself once again since the early 2020.
The problem is though that the Youtuber who previously made his content on basically reading and translating research papers to his audiance - that afformentioned research paper was the last he ever submitted. So, what's the next best thing for me? I go to the wold health organization homepage. They've a list of myths that are untrue, like drinking bleach won't cure covid 19 and stuff like that. But no links to any researches whatsoever. Not even statistics are provided there.
It's even worse on the rest of the internet, because not even anectdotal journalist blogs talk about Covid 19. I'm not even sure if Doctors are allowed to talk about it on most of the internet.
I literally can't find any fucking information at all now.

My best bet would be, if I were to vaccinate - I'd do it with a vaccine that was tested for the longest. But tbh, I don't believe everything can be tested so quick.

[OzyWho]

I went down the rabbit hole for a total of like 1-2min by pressing the link in the description.

They claim that mental disorders don't exist because they can't be proven, and unreliable because the diagnosis go by a checklist.
>Both of those reasonings are correct: in psychology almost nothing can be proven (it's like a pseudoscience in that sense?), and diagnoses are done by checklists afaik. But I'm just not sure about the conclusion, especially since psychiatrists themselves seem to be on both side of the fences.

For the claim of psychiatric drugs dumbing down people, they provided proof is a link to a site where you can check up on the side effects of drugs.
>Side effects are indeed a thing, and there probably are medicines/drugs out there that are more bad than worth it. But we just have no way of knowing the extent of it - literally impossible for us imho.


Big pharmacy companies not being trustable is not exactly a new idea. But I'm not exactly aware of anything that points towards mallicious intent. The only times I know where they did damage was caused by either fallacious testing or doctors mistake.

I guess the closest that I know of where there might be mallicious is intent is the ongoing rumor wrt weed. How each time a big pharmacy company do a research to weed, their tests make it look bad, but when independent researches do it, they find positives to weed; and the former researches are anectdotaly bad. There's like infinite "documentries" on it though.

---

With regards to the topic of this thread though, here's my pov with it.
In the early 2020, the world health organization got together the best experts they could find and gave them infinite resources in order to come up with a "game plan" for the world so to speak.
That research was which basically all the countries based their actions on for the most part. I informed myself through it and thanks to that I knew in the early 202 that this pandemic would go on for years when most people still hoped or thought it'd last only for months.
The idea was to have the pandemic be on and off for multiple years to let the virus go through everyone in a controlled fashion. From the little superficial that I informed myself, I don't remember vaccines being talked about though. (but it might be, since I pretty much only cared for the summary so to speak)

This brings us more to the current day.
I observed some things:
-People pressuring their goverments, and in return the goverments/countries themselves ask for someone to release some sort of vaccine.
-Obviously thanks to the above, it was a race for the pharmaceutical companies for the money. (though, honestly, it's more the question of who becomes to bigger billionaire)
-There's some strange stuff going like Doctors being ordered to label a cause of death as Covid 19. (though it goes two ways, because many doctors have claimed that covid 19 causes of death have been under-counted due to a lack of tests)
-New laws come about that force vaccines on some people, like teachers. And indirectly forcing everyone due to all the restrictions they'd have otherwise.
-Some funny stuff like some doctors in my area themselves not vaccinating when they really should be lke the highest priority to do so, or how some nurses got caught not vaccinating but instead injecting them vitamins or sometihng like that / and they done it to hundreds. xD

Anyhow, after seeing many strange things, I decide to inform myself once again since the early 2020.
The problem is though that the Youtuber who previously made his content on basically reading and translating research papers to his audiance - that afformentioned research paper was the last he ever submitted. So, what's the next best thing for me? I go to the wold health organization homepage. They've a list of myths that are untrue, like drinking bleach won't cure covid 19 and stuff like that. But no links to any researches whatsoever. Not even statistics are provided there.
It's even worse on the rest of the internet, because not even anectdotal journalist blogs talk about Covid 19. I'm not even sure if Doctors are allowed to talk about it on most of the internet.
I literally can't find any fucking information at all now.

My best bet would be, if I were to vaccinate - I'd do it with a vaccine that was tested for the longest. But tbh, I don't believe everything can be tested so quick.

In my personal opinion, this whole pandemic and vaccine ordeal feels just Kafkaesque.

[Voss]

I went down the rabbit hole for a total of like 1-2min by pressing the link in the description.

They claim that mental disorders don't exist because they can't be proven, and unreliable because the diagnosis go by a checklist.
>Both of those reasonings are correct: in psychology almost nothing can be proven (it's like a pseudoscience in that sense?), and diagnoses are done by checklists afaik. But I'm just not sure about the conclusion, especially since psychiatrists themselves seem to be on both side of the fences.

For the claim of psychiatric drugs dumbing down people, they provided proof is a link to a site where you can check up on the side effects of drugs.
>Side effects are indeed a thing, and there probably are medicines/drugs out there that are more bad than worth it. But we just have no way of knowing the extent of it - literally impossible for us imho.


Big pharmacy companies not being trustable is not exactly a new idea. But I'm not exactly aware of anything that points towards mallicious intent. The only times I know where they did damage was caused by either fallacious testing or doctors mistake.

I guess the closest that I know of where there might be mallicious is intent is the ongoing rumor wrt weed. How each time a big pharmacy company do a research to weed, their tests make it look bad, but when independent researches do it, they find positives to weed; and the former researches are anectdotaly bad. There's like infinite "documentries" on it though.

---

With regards to the topic of this thread though, here's my pov with it.
In the early 2020, the world health organization got together the best experts they could find and gave them infinite resources in order to come up with a "game plan" for the world so to speak.
That research was which basically all the countries based their actions on for the most part. I informed myself through it and thanks to that I knew in the early 202 that this pandemic would go on for years when most people still hoped or thought it'd last only for months.
The idea was to have the pandemic be on and off for multiple years to let the virus go through everyone in a controlled fashion. From the little superficial that I informed myself, I don't remember vaccines being talked about though. (but it might be, since I pretty much only cared for the summary so to speak)

This brings us more to the current day.
I observed some things:
-People pressuring their goverments, and in return the goverments/countries themselves ask for someone to release some sort of vaccine.
-Obviously thanks to the above, it was a race for the pharmaceutical companies for the money. (though, honestly, it's more the question of who becomes to bigger billionaire)
-There's some strange stuff going like Doctors being ordered to label a cause of death as Covid 19. (though it goes two ways, because many doctors have claimed that covid 19 causes of death have been under-counted due to a lack of tests)
-New laws come about that force vaccines on some people, like teachers. And indirectly forcing everyone due to all the restrictions they'd have otherwise.
-Some funny stuff like some doctors in my area themselves not vaccinating when they really should be lke the highest priority to do so, or how some nurses got caught not vaccinating but instead injecting them vitamins or sometihng like that / and they done it to hundreds. xD

Anyhow, after seeing many strange things, I decide to inform myself once again since the early 2020.
The problem is though that the Youtuber who previously made his content on basically reading and translating research papers to his audiance - that afformentioned research paper was the last he ever submitted. So, what's the next best thing for me? I go to the wold health organization homepage. They've a list of myths that are untrue, like drinking bleach won't cure covid 19 and stuff like that. But no links to any researches whatsoever. Not even statistics are provided there.
It's even worse on the rest of the internet, because not even anectdotal journalist blogs talk about Covid 19. I'm not even sure if Doctors are allowed to talk about it on most of the internet.
I literally can't find any fucking information at all now.

My best bet would be, if I were to vaccinate - I'd do it with a vaccine that was tested for the longest. But tbh, I don't believe everything can be tested so quick.

(My tone is going to change to be a more respectful one in this response)

From this post, it sounds like there are two reasons why you are vaccine hesitant.
1. You can't find research (although what research you are looking for is unclear)
2. It hasn't been tested long enough.

To address the first point:
What is the topic of research that you want to look for? And if it's vaccine research, is there another source you'd be willing to trust? For me, I'd trust my doctor (or other primary care provider). If my doctor is a fuck up, it's beyond my control and the universe will just take me back.

To address the second point:
The way I understand the science behind the vaccine is that the mRNA technology that it's based on has been in development for a decade and a half ish. The "new" part about this is encoding the covid19 protein that the mRNA vaccine is supposed to attack.
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/52424.html
So, I liken this to the safety of a cars. We trust the new 2022 Toyota Camry as a safe car even though it was developed very recently BECAUSE the underlying technology behind cars have been around for decades on decades.

What would you say is the appropriate amount of wait time for testing? I don't think saying "idk, just an indefinite longer amount" is defensible.

(If anyone thinks my analogies are misleading/bad, please call me out on it).

[OzyWho]

To address the first point:
What is the topic of research that you want to look for? And if it's vaccine research, is there another source you'd be willing to trust? For me, I'd trust my doctor (or other primary care provider). If my doctor is a fuck up, it's beyond my control and the universe will just take me back.

What do you mean by source? Do you mean interpretations of research?
What I'd want is to have access to research to begin with. After all, we are talking about an industry that has a terrible track record with fraud, bribery, lawsuits and scandals. Frankly, I don't know why you would want to put something in your body you can't get any info on, it just sounds absurd to me. Maybe there won't be hundreds of thousands of heart attacks like it was with Vioxx for example, but we're talking about taking something on nothing but blind faith. Even your own doctor is giving you your vaccine on blind faith.

What would you say is the appropriate amount of wait time for testing? I don't think saying "idk, just an indefinite longer amount" is defensible.

I'd feel better if we had any access to how the tests went o begin with. But regards appropriate amount of testing time, from what I can find, some sources say that phase 3 trial can take 1-4 years, some say 10-15 years. First have to get to phase 3 to begin with though. Seems to be that around 2 years should be good, one and a half year the bear minimum.

[oops_ur_dead]

I'd feel better if we had any access to how the tests went o begin with. But regards appropriate amount of testing time, from what I can find, some sources say that phase 3 trial can take 1-4 years, some say 10-15 years. First have to get to phase 3 to begin with though. Seems to be that around 2 years should be good, one and a half year the bear minimum.

Did you know that the flu vaccine is different every year, and is tested for a much shorter period of time than the COVID vaccine was ever tested for? Are you similarly hesitant of getting a seasonal flu shot?

[OzyWho]

Did you know that the flu vaccine is different every year, and is tested for a much shorter period of time than the COVID vaccine was ever tested for?

Idk anything about flu vaccines, but I realize the relevance given the frequent covid 19 mutations.
Where did you get your info on COVID vaccines?

[yzb25]

Frankly, I don't know why you would want to put something in your body you can't get any info on, it just sounds absurd to me. Maybe there won't be hundreds of thousands of heart attacks like it was with Vioxx for example, but we're talking about taking something on nothing but blind faith. Even your own doctor is giving you your vaccine on blind faith.

Well, for me, it's not simply about whether the vaccine is dangerous. It's about whether it's so dangerous it would kill more people than if covid was left to rampage freely - because realistically that's the alternative. Even after accounting for all the covid deaths, you also have to consider the number of people that would die from lack of care due to hospitals surpassing capacity.

So yeah, unless it actually is causing "hundreds of thousands of heart attacks", and you think death statistics are being systematically overstated by entire orders of magnitude, from a utilitarian perspective it seemed like a no brainer to me. If I get a blood clot or something as a result, then fuck my luck lol.

[OzyWho]

What would you say is the appropriate amount of wait time for testing? I don't think saying "idk, just an indefinite longer amount" is defensible.

Ftr, I did re-visit the aforementioned paper and it did predict a vaccine within 12-18 months, so that's cool.

Well, for me, it's not simply about whether the vaccine is dangerous. It's about whether it's so dangerous it would kill more people than if covid was left to rampage freely - because realistically that's the alternative. Even after accounting for all the covid deaths, you also have to consider the number of people that would die from lack of care due to hospitals surpassing capacity.

So yeah, unless it actually is causing "hundreds of thousands of heart attacks", and you think death statistics are being systematically overstated by entire orders of magnitude, from a utilitarian perspective it seemed like a no brainer to me. If I get a blood clot or something as a result, then fuck my luck lol.

Yah, looking at the current death per case ratio for different countries, it seems that it's around 2%. Which is surprising because in the early 2020 the estimates were 2% only if you're over 70 years old. (which I suppose even then was reason enough to do herd protection of the risk group?)

2% is a really high number wtf...

[yzb25]

Ftr, I did re-visit the aforementioned paper and it did predict a vaccine within 12-18 months, so that's cool.



Yah, looking at the current death per case ratio for different countries, it seems that it's around 2%. Which is surprising because in the early 2020 the estimates were 2% only if you're over 70 years old. (which I suppose even then was reason enough to do herd protection of the risk group?)

2% is a really high number wtf...

yeah, it's not really something I can wrap my head around honestly.

[OzyWho]

Ahh, those Google numbers are heavily misleading.
This weekly updated statistic says that: "For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death."

For every 100 deaths by COVID-19, only 5 are caused solely by the virus. The other 95 have had other health conditions in addition, with an average of 4 additionals.

Looking at Causes of death and comorbidities in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 (Comorbidity is "the presence of one or more additional conditions often co-occurring with a primary condition."
The common additional health conditions upon dying from COVID-19 seem to be such as these:
I will just paste the first 10 patients off the table:

Case1: Active smoking, COPD, HIV-infection, obesity, ventricular fibrillation
Case2: Diabetes II, heart failure, hypertension, obesity, OSAS
Case3: Asthma, COPD, hypertension, mesenterial infarction
Case4: Asthma, atrial fibrillation, hypertension, sinus node arrest
Case5: Hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, obesity, OSAS
Case6: Atrial fibrillation, chronic renal failure, COPD, dementia, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, liver cirrhosis
Case7: Hemiplegia, pulmonary embolism
Case8: Dementia, diabetes II, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, stroke
Case9: Alcohol abuse, heart failure, obesity
Case10: Active smoking, atrial fibrillation, heart failure, hypertension, ischaemic heart failure, obesity


Now, assuming that the statistics that google gave me that I mentioned in my previous post include every death that includes COVID-19 as a cause - I feel like I want to reduce that ratio to 5% of it's size, because if it included all the Comorbidity cases with an average of 4 additional symptoms and those symptoms are such that I listed; that's like being surprised a 90 y/o dying after getting sick tbh.


Got this idea to look for comorbidities in this podcast. That's a sad podcast tbh, because the podcaster looks more informed than the Doctor.(?)
The entire comment section seem to be against COVID-19 vaccines. I guess influencers really are influencing, lol.

[Brendan]

Ahh, those Google numbers are heavily misleading.
This weekly updated statistic says that: "For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death."

For every 100 deaths by COVID-19, only 5 are caused solely by the virus. The other 95 have had other health conditions in addition, with an average of 4 additionals.

Looking at Causes of death and comorbidities in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 (Comorbidity is "the presence of one or more additional conditions often co-occurring with a primary condition."
The common additional health conditions upon dying from COVID-19 seem to be such as these:
I will just paste the first 10 patients off the table:

Case1: Active smoking, COPD, HIV-infection, obesity, ventricular fibrillation
Case2: Diabetes II, heart failure, hypertension, obesity, OSAS
Case3: Asthma, COPD, hypertension, mesenterial infarction
Case4: Asthma, atrial fibrillation, hypertension, sinus node arrest
Case5: Hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, obesity, OSAS
Case6: Atrial fibrillation, chronic renal failure, COPD, dementia, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, liver cirrhosis
Case7: Hemiplegia, pulmonary embolism
Case8: Dementia, diabetes II, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, stroke
Case9: Alcohol abuse, heart failure, obesity
Case10: Active smoking, atrial fibrillation, heart failure, hypertension, ischaemic heart failure, obesity


Now, assuming that the statistics that google gave me that I mentioned in my previous post include every death that includes COVID-19 as a cause - I feel like I want to reduce that ratio to 5% of it's size, because if it included all the Comorbidity cases with an average of 4 additional symptoms and those symptoms are such that I listed; that's like being surprised a 90 y/o dying after getting sick tbh.


Got this idea to look for comorbidities in this podcast. That's a sad podcast tbh, because the podcaster looks more informed than the Doctor.(?)
The entire comment section seem to be against COVID-19 vaccines. I guess influencers really are influencing, lol.

At the end of the day I'm more afraid of a virus that we know nothing about the long-term effects of than a vaccine that was developed by groups of people that are presumably far more intelligent than me or at the very least far more educated in the subject matter. Just look at herpes - causes all sorts of health problems far past the initial infection (various cancers, syndromes, etc.). Shingles from chickenpox would be a more well-known comparison. Covid has been linked to presumed permanent cognitive decline, loss of vision, taste, etc. Viruses are insanely varied and complex.

[OzyWho]

At the end of the day I'm more afraid of a virus that we know nothing about the long-term effects of than a vaccine that was developed by groups of people that are presumably far more intelligent than me or at the very least far more educated in the subject matter. Just look at herpes - causes all sorts of health problems far past the initial infection (various cancers, syndromes, etc.). Shingles from chickenpox would be a more well-known comparison. Covid has been linked to presumed permanent cognitive decline, loss of vision, taste, etc. Viruses are insanely varied and complex.

That's a interesting new perspective tbh. It having long term effects makes it more like Herpes than something like just the common cold or flu.

I had no problems with finding these claims online. At one point I had to ask myself "what is it not linked to?".
But finding evidence seems to be difficult, as they mostly came from "reports". Like someone going to the doctor and saying that they feel fatigued for example.

[oops_ur_dead]

That's a interesting new perspective tbh. It having long term effects makes it more like Herpes than something like just the common cold or flu.

I had no problems with finding these claims online. At one point I had to ask myself "what is it not linked to?".
But finding evidence seems to be difficult, as they mostly came from "reports". Like someone going to the doctor and saying that they feel fatigued for example.

It makes very little logical sense to be wary of a new vaccine but not a new virus. Both have been around for the same amount of time, we have as much knowledge about both. Except one has actually been designed and tested for safety during that time period.

In fact we saw during the SARS outbreak that people who were infected with SARS but survived had significantly diminished long-term lung function compared to people who weren't infected, which is the closest indicator we have to long term effects of the virus.

[yzb25]

Ahh, those Google numbers are heavily misleading.
This weekly updated statistic says that: "For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death."

For every 100 deaths by COVID-19, only 5 are caused solely by the virus. The other 95 have had other health conditions in addition, with an average of 4 additionals.

Looking at Causes of death and comorbidities in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 (Comorbidity is "the presence of one or more additional conditions often co-occurring with a primary condition."
The common additional health conditions upon dying from COVID-19 seem to be such as these:
I will just paste the first 10 patients off the table:

Case1: Active smoking, COPD, HIV-infection, obesity, ventricular fibrillation
Case2: Diabetes II, heart failure, hypertension, obesity, OSAS
Case3: Asthma, COPD, hypertension, mesenterial infarction
Case4: Asthma, atrial fibrillation, hypertension, sinus node arrest
Case5: Hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, obesity, OSAS
Case6: Atrial fibrillation, chronic renal failure, COPD, dementia, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, liver cirrhosis
Case7: Hemiplegia, pulmonary embolism
Case8: Dementia, diabetes II, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, stroke
Case9: Alcohol abuse, heart failure, obesity
Case10: Active smoking, atrial fibrillation, heart failure, hypertension, ischaemic heart failure, obesity


Now, assuming that the statistics that google gave me that I mentioned in my previous post include every death that includes COVID-19 as a cause - I feel like I want to reduce that ratio to 5% of it's size, because if it included all the Comorbidity cases with an average of 4 additional symptoms and those symptoms are such that I listed; that's like being surprised a 90 y/o dying after getting sick tbh.


Got this idea to look for comorbidities in this podcast. That's a sad podcast tbh, because the podcaster looks more informed than the Doctor.(?)
The entire comment section seem to be against COVID-19 vaccines. I guess influencers really are influencing, lol.

Just in case there is a misunderstanding here, the vast majority of these people would not have died when they did if it weren't for COVID. The study is not disputing this. Their cause of death is COVID.

You might look at an obese man with heart disease and high blood pressure and think "they may only have 5-10 years left. Covid has statistically made little difference to their lifespan in such a case". But I am sure the man in question regards those 5-10 years to be highly significant. And if you had a loved one with those conditions, I am sure you'd think very differently.

Furthermore, if you wish to disregard covid deaths where people seem to have a high chance of dying soon, you would need to specify how many years left are considered too few to be regarded as significant, so we can accurately quantify how many should be disregarded.

I don't think it's completely unreasonable the line of thinking you have fallen into here. If someone is going to die in 2 weeks, morbid though it may be, perhaps it matters little if they die in 1 week instead. But I think you're massively overapplying that principle here by disregarding every case where people had at least one secondary condition. The number you disregard should realistically be far less than 95 if you have a soul =P.

[Helz]

Im not sure how to vote here because I do not understand what its asking.

I support the vaccine existing and people taking it but I am very against the idea of forcing people to take it. In a similar line of thinking I am very much against forcing people to wear seatbelts. They should, they are kinda idiots if they dont, but it is a basic human right to take risks with your personal safety.

For the COVID numbers there are financial incentives in America to declare a death as COVID related. In many other countries there are incentives to not report COVID issues. I can't help but feel a little... bitchy or something every time someone points to the numbers and rails on how poorly America is dealing with COVID with those factors in mind. Although to be fair my family is heavily involved in health care and hospital management so I have access to a different perspective than most.

I also feel like the two hardline sides should leave etchother alone. Darwinism should satisfy the ones that want to force it on everyone and the ones who are very against it can simply go about their lives without engaging in an argument with someone who holds a diametrically oppositional view point. Its not like anyone is going to change their minds.

At the end of the day the vaccine does have risks and does not guarantee you wont get COVID. COVID has more risks but there is no guarantee you will get it. This means people must choose to certainly expose themselves to risk to avoid a potential greater risk. I see many people taking the view that people who are against getting vaccinated are irrational or illogical but on the most basic level that makes sense to me. If the vaccine had 0 risk and did guarantee you wouldn't get any form of COVID it would be different.

Its been interesting to see how protected information has been circumvented by employers during this whole thing. On one hand its unethical to force people to disclose their medical information while on the other being vaccinated protects customers, markets well and ensures the company wont have unexpected shut downs.

I am personally much less tolerant of the COVID measures at this point. The vaccine is available to everyone for free at this point so I don't understand the shut down stuff. The people who want to protect themselves can and the people who don't can accept the risk that comes with that decision. Fighting nature is dumb, let it do what it does and let society go back to normal.

I do have a question though. I am totally ignorant on the subject but I keep hearing about how the virus looks engineered. Has anyone dug into the subject that can speak one way or the other on it?

[OzyWho]

The people who want to protect themselves can and the people who don't can accept the risk that comes with that decision.

Interestingly, this viewpoint is only viable for COVID-19.
For regular vaccines, a major reason for healthy people to take the vaccines is to achieve herd immunity for those who can't protect themselves.
Herd immunity for COVID-19 though is nigh on impossible.

I do have a question though. I am totally ignorant on the subject but I keep hearing about how the virus looks engineered. Has anyone dug into the subject that can speak one way or the other on it?

I mean, it did leak out of a laboratory didn't it?
Is it official yet? I know that the Chinese have tried to sweep it under the rug like they always do, but I recall them being asked to not stand in the way of official investigation.

[Helz]

Interestingly, this viewpoint is only viable for COVID-19.
For regular vaccines, a major reason for healthy people to take the vaccines is to achieve herd immunity for those who can't protect themselves.
Herd immunity for COVID-19 though is nigh on impossible.

This might piss some people off but there are some negatives to herd immunity. People that should have naturally died instead survive to reproduce these days weakening our gene pool on a macro scale. As cold as it is to say, having something that culls the population is positive if you consider it from the stance of humans as a species. That and there is simply too many people. I honestly believe just about every other living thing on the planet would be better off if there were less people and we seem incapable as a species of addressing that issue. In areas where the population outgrows its ability to feed and economically support its people our solution has been to step in and increase food and economic support which exacerbates the human suffering. Our direction is unsustainable in many respects imo and as horrible as it is to see people dying the natural control measures that exist within nature are truly necessary in my opinion.

I mean, it did leak out of a laboratory didn't it?
Is it official yet? I know that the Chinese have tried to sweep it under the rug like they always do, but I recall them being asked to not stand in the way of official investigation.

Thats as far as I have herd from anyone. Just rumors and some logical assumptions based on how the COVID virus is. Survives well, spreads without showing symptoms, deadly enough to draw a reaction but not massively kill the population, mutates slowly ect.. Its easy to see these factors as ideal in some respects but its still just assumptions (from my ignorant understanding)

[OzyWho]

This might piss some people off but there are some negatives to herd immunity. People that should have naturally died instead survive to reproduce these days weakening our gene pool on a macro scale. As cold as it is to say, having something that culls the population is positive if you consider it from the stance of humans as a species. That and there is simply too many people. I honestly believe just about every other living thing on the planet would be better off if there were less people and we seem incapable as a species of addressing that issue. In areas where the population outgrows its ability to feed and economically support its people our solution has been to step in and increase food and economic support which exacerbates the human suffering. Our direction is unsustainable in many respects imo and as horrible as it is to see people dying the natural control measures that exist within nature are truly necessary in my opinion.

AFAIK
1) We are very very far from overpopulation becoming a problem in the sense of it becoming unsustainable.
2) Better quality of life and health leads to families having less children.

Though,
The math involved in the 1st one doesn't include take global warming in account (though, there's more effective ways to reduce the co2 emissions), and this virus was definitely not taken into account for the 2nd due to it not existing then yet.

[NotPaopan]

Interesting thought. I'll add to this thread.

Interestingly, this viewpoint is only viable for COVID-19.
For regular vaccines, a major reason for healthy people to take the vaccines is to achieve herd immunity for those who can't protect themselves.
Herd immunity for COVID-19 though is nigh on impossible.

Herd immunity isn't possible because selfish countries with home-court advantages hogging up vaccine orders. Not that other countries are too poor to buy it. It's fucking cheap for christ sake. A $2 a pop of AstraZeneca in the EU plus say... other costs like logistical costs (around $300-500 per person) when distributed to other continents/countries like Saint Helena; definitely not a lot compared to the economic losses due to covid19 extending lockdowns, quarantines, limitations, etc.

TwW82I7.png

This is more on the forgiving side of data since reality is far much worse. The data above accounts for the total population per country... in which currently, vaccines are only permitted to individuals of age 18 and up. That's why the most boggling thing here is, despite this privilege, there were still some people who don't want to partake in the vaccination programs. I'm beginning to sound like a commie. Soo, being first to get the vaccine is one thing and should be that way, but hoarding it up to an extra enormous amount is ridiculous.

I mean, it did leak out of a laboratory didn't it?
Is it official yet? I know that the Chinese have tried to sweep it under the rug like they always do, but I recall them being asked to not stand in the way of official investigation.

This is not true; logically speaking. This is nothing but a hoax.

Sure there were reports like these back in the days where Trump is just being racist and using some of the strategies of totalitarian rulers like Hitler or Lenin. "Find a common enemy" *in this context; China* and "to make sure they *the general populace*know who the enemy is" and with it will help Trump unify the Americans and make them more submissive to him.

Assuming this is true. There were two ways they did it.
1. Deliberately - Not possible, there is absolutely no way you would launch a biological weapon near your labs or even in your own country (largest pop in the world) that is currently politically stable. Virologists in WHO already reach an agreement; didn't rule out the possibility, yet it is unlikely that Covid 19 was man-made from Wuhan. It directly opposed our One Belt One Road Initiative. But the more plausible theory in this section is if Covid-19 was man-made and originated in Fort Detrick.

2. Unintentional (Accident) - More likely scenario compared to the first section. But as of now, there isn't much evidence of it. Even if it was... what would you or any country do? China can't be liable for the damages it has done in any way. Doing so would be counter-productive to the whole world. The other theory may be more valid. Why is that? Looking at the past, you can see that "patient zero" came from Wuhan... Yet the first wave of major outbreaks rode throughout the west (US, EU, RIP Italy at that time).

It was only then Asia experienced the major outbreak (second wave of Covid19)... Why is that? Most Asian countries should be exposed first before the West, right? Not that they were near China, Asian countries are more densely populated compared to the west. It should be that way. That's how every virus spread out throughout the entire history. Blaming mobility or logistics isn't also a good argument... Not being rude here, but Wuhan (under Hubei Region) is composed of really poor people and is not what really made China a powerhouse (Hubei Province has 0 SEZs) compared to its SEZs powerhouses like Guangdong or Jiangsu region. Being poor means you really go pack up for a vacation in the western countries that easily. There is nothing much to see in Wuhan... Well, their Yellow Crane Tower is pretty cool. So yeah... To summ it up, Wuhan is not the epicentre, the first infection on people was only tested and discovered there.

Note'y: Just personal opinion. Get out of this forum if you wanted a "reliable" sources from virologist doctors etc. Don't question my credentials lolololol. Not really sure if my info is really updated. TBH, I really don't give a fuck about covid anymore even though I got it thrice.

tl;dr I blame the sugar industries for having so many fat-asses with weak lungs that is prone to covid-19 death.

[Helz]

AFAIK
1) We are very very far from overpopulation becoming a problem in the sense of it becoming unsustainable.
2) Better quality of life and health leads to families having less children.

Though,
The math involved in the 1st one doesn't include take global warming in account (though, there's more effective ways to reduce the co2 emissions), and this virus was definitely not taken into account for the 2nd due to it not existing then yet.

I believe the strongest correlated factor with lower reproductive rates is education although its been a few years sense I dug into the subject. As for being very very far from overpopulation being an issue that really depends on how you look at things. If our existence is a few hundred thousands of years looking at the population explosion over the last 100 years is batshit crazy. We may have made more people in that 100 years than had existed in the rest of our time combined.

At the end of the day we have this one planet. Maybe we can figure out how to leave it and colonize somewhere else but were not taking 10 billion people to that new planet. A tiny amount will go and everyone else will be left behind. The rate we are consuming our natural resources is absolutely unsustainable and we can only say we are far off from it being an issue if we look through the lens of our individual life span.

What will be an issue first will be reduction in quality of life. We got a tiny taste of that with the supply chain being hit recently.

[NotPaopan]

I believe the strongest correlated factor with lower reproductive rates is education although its been a few years sense I dug into the subject. As for being very very far from overpopulation being an issue that really depends on how you look at things. If our existence is a few hundred thousands of years looking at the population explosion over the last 100 years is batshit crazy. We may have made more people in that 100 years than had existed in the rest of our time combined.

At the end of the day we have this one planet. Maybe we can figure out how to leave it and colonize somewhere else but were not taking 10 billion people to that new planet. A tiny amount will go and everyone else will be left behind. The rate we are consuming our natural resources is absolutely unsustainable and we can only say we are far off from it being an issue if we look through the lens of our individual life span.

What will be an issue first will be reduction in quality of life. We got a tiny taste of that with the supply chain being hit recently.

I firmly believe that economic pressure is more of the main reason for the decline rather than education or healthcare. So you're right about the quality of life thingy. I'm fine right now to start a family but the resources that were supposed to be mine will be re-allocated to others needs. Unless you are talking about the conservative people or religious freaks who do not accept or have sex education in developing countries though.

Every country in the world is at stage 3-4 of the demographic transition. Most are already stabilized aside from Africa. It is presumed that the world population would stabilize around 10 billion~ so I don't worry a single bit about the earth as a whole getting overpopulated. What I'm worried about is how some countries' social security is designed like a Ponzi Scheme; the old generation reaps the retirement income benefits, while the younger generation pays for it. But with declining birth rates and increasing retiree rates... this burden falls upon the younger generation. Hence, they have to pay more.

Deeping deeper here. We're talking about the population as "global", but the pop density per country vary. That's why we are currently having a crisis caused by "overpopulation" to some countries.

Water shortages: Becoming a problem in some countries (not you Canada)... say in Baja Cal Mexico. But not so deep that people would die from dehydration. We don't want a repeat of the Cape Town water crisis lol.

Increase water prices to force people to conserve. I personally think this is the only way for some. Salination is inefficient and expensive. Anything that could improve distribution like piping is also cool. In any case. We are using more water than nature to recycle your pee (fuck treatment plants! its always nature! and dolphins)

Meat shortages: Also a thing. With other nations developing (say China). They're adapting to another diet (Western meat yummy yummy) thus increasing demands for meat that it's becoming unsustainable. Good video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqGI3iMX_co

Improve and accept plant-based (still yuck) meat and/or cell-based (more hopeful in these) lab-grown meat. Or reduce meat intake overall. This solution also helps with our problems with CO2 emissions (those damn farts) and water crisis (animal/dairy industry uses a lot).

Antibiotics Resistances: Caused by overpopulation too. Used extensively in animal agriculture.

Reduce this and that and so on... Cause and effect.

Limited resources: Coal (Magnolia says we have a lot of it..) Oil (Oh the arabs says this shit will ran out after a few decades. But the Ruskis in the Urals may veto this statement thanks to climate change) Nat Gas (Gonna take long to diminish.. China currently building pipelines to Iran yippie).

Solution: Elon Musk and/or Ernest Rutherford

IoT: Yeah just gonna add this. In case yall don't know. We ran out of ipv4 addresses long ago. But we're transitioning shits with ipv6 yippie. Overpopulation plays a role but this is actually about the huge increase in average device per household.

And all of these problems are caused by overpopulation yeppp. There are long term problems. But humanity is going to fix this, and we'll survive

Oh yeah.. Not being a know it all, that's just my personal view and I'm sure there's a flaw on my statements.

[oops_ur_dead]

Interestingly, this viewpoint is only viable for COVID-19.
For regular vaccines, a major reason for healthy people to take the vaccines is to achieve herd immunity for those who can't protect themselves.
Herd immunity for COVID-19 though is nigh on impossible.

Not really. Herd immunity has been accomplished for much more contagious viruses like measles and polio. It was done so through childhood vaccinations and vaccination mandates in the way of restricting public access to unvaccinated people.

[Helz]

Not really. Herd immunity has been accomplished for much more contagious viruses like measles and polio. It was done so through childhood vaccinations and vaccination mandates in the way of restricting public access to unvaccinated people.

I have not done much research on the subject but when celebrating my mothers birthday recently I had a decent conversation with her about the vaccines. One of the largest issues is that they only 'last' for about a year. This effectively means you would need to both vaccinate 80-95% of the population within that time frame as well as effectively screen incoming and outgoing tourism and immigration. Im not going to say thats impossible but I do not think its viable in a world where the publics trust has been so terribly abused nobody knows what to believe. I personally think that COVID is here to stay but time will tell.

I firmly believe that economic pressure is more of the main reason for the decline rather than education or healthcare. So you're right about the quality of life thingy. I'm fine right now to start a family but the resources that were supposed to be mine will be re-allocated to others needs. Unless you are talking about the conservative people or religious freaks who do not accept or have sex education in developing countries though.

Every country in the world is at stage 3-4 of the demographic transition. Most are already stabilized aside from Africa. It is presumed that the world population would stabilize around 10 billion~ so I don't worry a single bit about the earth as a whole getting overpopulated.

That was not my openion. Years back I had a conversation (I think on this forum) on global population growth which led me to diving into a bunch of projections from some section of the UN on global population rates and somewhere along the line I found multiple studies that all put education as the strongest correlated factor with reproduction. That the more educated the person the less kids they bang out. You make enough interesting points I would spend the time to try to figure out where I got the information from if it matters to you but its likely you have touched on the material given some of the points you are making.

What I'm worried about is how some countries' social security is designed like a Ponzi Scheme; the old generation reaps the retirement income benefits, while the younger generation pays for it. But with declining birth rates and increasing retiree rates... this burden falls upon the younger generation. Hence, they have to pay more.

I would take this a few steps further and apply it to many structures within many society's but its fair to say I absolutely agree with you and the points I would make would derail the conversation.

Deeping deeper here. We're talking about the population as "global", but the pop density per country vary. That's why we are currently having a crisis caused by "overpopulation" to some countries.

Water shortages: Becoming a problem in some countries (not you Canada)... say in Baja Cal Mexico. But not so deep that people would die from dehydration. We don't want a repeat of the Cape Town water crisis lol.

Increase water prices to force people to conserve. I personally think this is the only way for some. Salination is inefficient and expensive. Anything that could improve distribution like piping is also cool. In any case. We are using more water than nature to recycle your pee (fuck treatment plants! its always nature! and dolphins)

Meat shortages: Also a thing. With other nations developing (say China). They're adapting to another diet (Western meat yummy yummy) thus increasing demands for meat that it's becoming unsustainable. Good video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqGI3iMX_co

Improve and accept plant-based (still yuck) meat and/or cell-based (more hopeful in these) lab-grown meat. Or reduce meat intake overall. This solution also helps with our problems with CO2 emissions (those damn farts) and water crisis (animal/dairy industry uses a lot).

Again I agree with you but I do feel this underscores my point that prior to a point of collapse quality of life suffers. People do not recognize the massive buffer we have with the huge water expenditure to grow grass but at the same time given human nature its likely the masses will have to start taking speed showers before the rich stop watering their lawns. Lab grown meat fascinates the hell out me though. The connection between deforestation and the meat shortage is something I am more concerned with though. Although increases in C02 will increase plant growth the moment the scale tips and we consume more oxygen as a planet than we create that road is going to get ugly. I hope I am wrong in my assumption that it will be how population is finally controlled.

Antibiotics Resistances: Caused by overpopulation too. Used extensively in animal agriculture.

Reduce this and that and so on... Cause and effect.

Kinda one of those counterintuitive positions I take but I feel like accelerationism is more appropriate here. As a species we only address issues when dramatic impacts happen so slowing the decline of something essentially prevents it from being addressed. I could ramble about the political and social theory associated with that position but I do feel that the best way to tear down a concept is to support it with flawed reasoning simply because it destroys credibility. On a macro scale the utilitarianist must accept accelerating detrimental issues to limit human suffering on scale.

Limited resources: Coal (Magnolia says we have a lot of it..) Oil (Oh the arabs says this shit will ran out after a few decades. But the Ruskis in the Urals may veto this statement thanks to climate change) Nat Gas (Gonna take long to diminish.. China currently building pipelines to Iran yippie).

Solution: Elon Musk and/or Ernest Rutherford

I have found most 'green energy' solutions to be marketing for profit. Its kinda funny when you break down the life span of solar panels and battery's and the carbon footprint of manufacturing and installing them vs burning fossil fuels.

At the same time though we create new ways of accomplishing goals as the current ways become less viable. I doubt anyone is afraid of running out of coal right now but that is in part because we discovered oil and natural gas. I am much more concerned about water, oxygen and food. Even watching how our society handles short term shortages of products with panic buying and secondary market price gouging spells trouble for the future. There is much more on the macro side of intellectual property and large assets that I believe will be a problem in the next 20 years but again, would derail the conversation.

[Stealthbomber16]

At the end of the day I'm more afraid of a virus that we know nothing about the long-term effects of than a vaccine that was developed by groups of people that are presumably far more intelligent than me or at the very least far more educated in the subject matter. Just look at herpes - causes all sorts of health problems far past the initial infection (various cancers, syndromes, etc.). Shingles from chickenpox would be a more well-known comparison. Covid has been linked to presumed permanent cognitive decline, loss of vision, taste, etc. Viruses are insanely varied and complex.

This 100000%.

I'm fucking stupid. I know I'm fucking stupid. These people are way smarter than I am. I am going to choose to put my trust in the people who are smarter than I am instead of potentially suffering from long term respiratory damage that would make me unable to do my job.

[HentaiManOfPeace]

Here's an unpopular opinion. Maybe we needed a pandemic to kill all the dumbasses who don't listen to science. The rise of anti-intellectualism in the West is what's holding society back. I think less than 30% of teens today are skeptical that the world is round. Social media and tapping into feelings instead of data will be the death of our race.

[Oberon]

As opposed to the egregious abuse of human rights that’s been going on for the past 2 years, in the form of lockdowns, curfews, and forcing people to get vaccinated you mean? But I forget socialists care not for rights but for money.

[Plotato]

𝔒𝔥 𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔤𝔬𝔡, ℑ 𝔞𝔠𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔩𝔶 𝔥𝔞𝔱𝔥 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔱𝔥𝔬𝔲 𝔞 𝔭𝔦𝔠𝔱𝔲𝔯𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔠𝔬𝔠𝔨 𝔞𝔫𝔡 𝔟𝔞𝔩𝔩𝔰...𝔭𝔯𝔦𝔱𝔥𝔢𝔢 𝔡𝔢𝔩𝔢𝔱𝔢 𝔦𝔱!! '𝔏𝔢𝔰𝔱...𝔱𝔥𝔬𝔲 𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔦𝔯𝔢 𝔱𝔬 𝔩𝔬𝔬𝔨? 𝔥𝔞𝔥𝔞 ℑ 𝔧𝔢𝔰𝔱, 𝔡𝔢𝔩𝔢𝔱𝔢 𝔦𝔱...𝔰𝔥𝔬𝔲𝔩𝔡 𝔱𝔥𝔢𝔢 𝔠𝔯𝔞𝔳𝔢... 𝔥𝔞𝔥𝔞 𝔫𝔞𝔶, 𝔟𝔞𝔫𝔦𝔰𝔥 𝔦𝔱...'𝔩𝔢𝔰𝔱?

[Oberon]

Ban thyselve

[HentaiManOfPeace]

Wow, was eradicating smallpox and polio through vaccinations a bad thing, Oberon?

Businesses can always rebuild and people in the west have more than enough shit to do at home without needing to be at a restaurant, bar, or sports game. This is like the the easiest pandemic to endure in the history of mankind. I'm talking to some dumb-dumb anti-vaxxers in a different country from me without me having to leave home while I pull up 20 tabs of hardcore hentai to watch waiting for some poor immigrant to deliver pizza to me. We're living like kings and queens compared to Black Death, smallpox, etc. And if we do go outside, it's a fucking piece of fabric covering your nose and mouth. I deadlifted 405 lbs while wearing one so if I can do that and anti-vaxxers can't, what does that say about their health?

Don't confuse being inconvenienced with being oppressed.

[oops_ur_dead]

Having to take a basket or god-forbid a shopping cart when you go to the grocery store is a human rights violation and literally Auschwitz.

[oops_ur_dead]

Btw this is not an exaggeration I literally had someone tell me to my face that it's "scary" that we've been conditioned and brainwashed into taking baskets when we go to the grocery store.