S-FM 319: ILLUMINΔTI (Ladder) 9P

[Mike]

ILLUMINΔTI (Ladder)
Created by: MattZeD
For 9 players

Link to setup

conspiracy131118_illuminati_250.jpg

RP: This was once a quiet little town. One day, the local mafia decided that it was time to seize control. Or did they? One of you suspects something far more sinister is afoot. It is up to you and your fellow townsfolk to find and eliminate the true threat.

Host Reserves this Color Cyan

Possible Setups:

Setup A	Setup B	Setup C	Setup D	Setup E	Setup F
Godfather	Godfather (Illuminati)	Godfather	Godfather	Godfather (Illuminati)	Godfather
Consigliere	Consigliere	Consigliere (Illuminati)	Consigliere	Consigliere	Consigliere (Illuminati)
Conspiracy Theorist	Conspiracy Theorist	Conspiracy Theorist	Conspiracy Theorist	Conspiracy Theorist	Conspiracy Theorist
Mason	Mason (Illuminati)	Hidden Illuminati	Mayor	Mayor (Illuminati)	Mayor (Illuminati)
Mason	Mason (Illuminati)	Mason (Illuminati)	Hidden Town	Hidden Illuminati	Hidden Illuminati
Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Mason	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town
Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town
Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town
Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town	Hidden Town

The Hidden Town cannot be Masons or Mayor.
The Hidden Illuminati can be one of Citizen, Sheriff, Doctor, or Escort.


Alive
@Dark Magician
@MattZed
@Frinckles
@yzb25
@MartinGG99
@Auwt
@Marshmallow Marshall
@Renegade
@Mesk514

Reserves
1. Stealthbomber16
2. Bakermir
3. Oberon
4. Helz

Game will start December 17, 2020 at 7pm CST

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DAYS HOURS MINUTES SECONDS

[Mike]

Day 1

The day has Started POST away!

Living Players	Graveyard
@Dark Magician @MattZed @Frinckles @yzb25 @MartinGG99 @Auwt @Marshmallow Marshall @Renegade @Mesk514

Day 1 will end:

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DAYS HOURS MINUTES SECONDS

__________________________
Links Below
__________________________

Night 1

Night 2



Replacements
Stealthbomber16 Replaced Dark Magician Day 1
bakermir Replaced MattZed Day 2 (Family Emergency)

5 votes to hammer.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

-vote MattZed

ILLUMINATI CONFIRMED.

[Dark Magician]

-vote MattZed

ILLUMINATI CONFIRMED.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is legit Tbh.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Having standards this low for a "good strategy" is like BL game throwing. (Dw I'm not reporting u or anything lmao)

I have the exact same opinion here. Doing this in a ladder game that has a setup which explicitely prevents the neutral from doing this with good odds is just sad

You aren't as upset about rolling cit :0

Uh, I'd say he looked pretty upset.

I’m not really going to pay much attention to this game.
But the question is, is Matt’s thought here genuine or is it just an opportunity to discredit people.
If Matt and MM are the scum team here (AKA Strongest Players) I wouldn’t be surprised.
I also wanted MM’s 7 Slot but instead I get the worst slot in the game.
Even the chances of my role to role is low.

Maybe even too upset. This is a ladder game, once again, and it'd be nice if you would play the game.
This reasoning is terrible. "X and Y are the strongest players, so they're probably scum"? Really? And if you don't mean we're probably scum but simply that "you wouldn't be surprised because it could happen", then you're posting pure fluff. Bad post. I'm not even sure it's scummy, it's just bad.

I’m very upset.
Never said I wasn’t, in fact I was implying that I was.
I was just saying that if Illuminati exists, town already lost if they ML anyone other then me.

Uh, town loses if it mislynches too much, too, and you don't seem exactly keen to help.

That’s how bad it is putting a VT in a setup like this.

I’m not going to waste my time verbally fighting.
Because that’s what I’d have to do with this role.

...

I wouldn’t be surprised if this [my first shitpost saying mattzed is illuminati confirmed because he's the setup creator] is legit Tbh.

The temptation to policy lynch this is strong. @Dark Magician , either you give better input than that or an army of squirrels rains upon you and murders you. The choice is yours.

[Renegade]

The temptation to policy lynch this is strong. @Dark Magician , either you give better input than that or an army of squirrels rains upon you and murders you. The choice is yours.

Oh no, the vet bullshite meta is back!!

[yzb25]

hi

[Renegade]

hi

hello

[yzb25]

hello

-vote renegade

uwu / GOOFY

[Renegade]

-vote renegade

uwu / GOOFY

REEEEEnegade

[MattZed]

I'm a little torn on what a town mayor should do: A town mayor KNOWS we're in setup D. They're a powerful TPR, and our chances of having a doc to protect them is small. They should probably be revealing D2/D3 when they can help with PoE, but right now they'd just be fodder to a night kill.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Actually, even mayor involves a lot of WIFOM (can be town or illuminati even despite the reveal), so it wouldn't be good either

[yzb25]

Spoiler : read this whenever :

Partially because it's interesting, and partially because it may be relevant to game discussion, I pre-wrote the following post about the odds of illuminati ---

As you hopefully know, there are 6 possible setup types - A, B, C, D, E, F. The type was chosen by feeding A (1), A (2), B (3), C (4), D (5), D (6), E (7) and F ( into an 8-possibility RNG. There are four numbers out of eight where illuminati does not spawn (1, 2, 5, 6). So you may assume the odds are simply 50/50.

However......

Suppose you spawn into the game as a consigliere (not illuminati). Simply by the role you received, you know the game cannot be setup C or setup F because the consigliere is illuminati in those.
Hence, you know the RNG picked 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 or 7. Of these, only 3 and 7 actually have an illuminati. So if you spawned as consigliere, the actual probability given the information you have of illuminati spawning is only 1 in 3 (33.33%), even if to an uninformed observer the probability seems like 50%.

This isn't as perverse as it seems. This is literally like if two people are told to guess whether a die rolled a 6, and the second person was told that the die roll was even. From the POV of the first person, the odds are 1 in 6, but the second person's additional information tells them the odds are 1 in 3.

Extrapolating this logic, here is the "true" probability of illuminati spawning from your POV, given the information your rolecard gives you:

Mayor: 0% chance of illuminati
Mafia: 33.33% chance of illuminati
Mason: 33.33% chance of illuminati
Town random slot: 45.45% chance of illuminati
Conspiracy theorist: 50% chance of illuminati
Illuminati: 100% chance of illuminati (lol)

The point is, varying roles have varying degrees of certainty about the presence of illuminati. For towns and conspiracy theorists, it's effectively a coinflip. But for mafia and certain TPRs, illuminati will seem inherently unlikely.

This may or may not be relevant in forming reads I guess.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Spoiler : read this whenever :

Partially because it's interesting, and partially because it may be relevant to game discussion, I pre-wrote the following post about the odds of illuminati ---

As you hopefully know, there are 6 possible setup types - A, B, C, D, E, F. The type was chosen by feeding A (1), A (2), B (3), C (4), D (5), D (6), E (7) and F ( into an 8-possibility RNG. There are four numbers out of eight where illuminati does not spawn (1, 2, 5, 6). So you may assume the odds are simply 50/50.

However......

Suppose you spawn into the game as a consigliere (not illuminati). Simply by the role you received, you know the game cannot be setup C or setup F because the consigliere is illuminati in those.
Hence, you know the RNG picked 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 or 7. Of these, only 3 and 7 actually have an illuminati. So if you spawned as consigliere, the actual probability given the information you have of illuminati spawning is only 1 in 3 (33.33%), even if to an uninformed observer the probability seems like 50%.

This isn't as perverse as it seems. This is literally like if two people are told to guess whether a die rolled a 6, and the second person was told that the die roll was even. From the POV of the first person, the odds are 1 in 6, but the second person's additional information tells them the odds are 1 in 3.

Extrapolating this logic, here is the "true" probability of illuminati spawning from your POV, given the information your rolecard gives you:

Mayor: 0% chance of illuminati
Mafia: 33.33% chance of illuminati
Mason: 33.33% chance of illuminati
Town random slot: 45.45% chance of illuminati
Conspiracy theorist: 50% chance of illuminati
Illuminati: 100% chance of illuminati (lol)

The point is, varying roles have varying degrees of certainty about the presence of illuminati. For towns and conspiracy theorists, it's effectively a coinflip. But for mafia and certain TPRs, illuminati will seem inherently unlikely.

This may or may not be relevant in forming reads I guess.

Very true, I had already considered that myself... the thing is, it's not useful until we get flips, so I suggest we play this normally for now and start thinking about that stuff when it becomes relevant.

[yzb25]

I think it may be in town's best interests for masons/mayors to claim day 1. It would damage us a little if there isn't an illuminati. But if there is, the illuminati would get totally wrecked. And I think it'd be within our means to survive even if we lose confirmed towns early. We have two mislynches at our disposal. Though I recognise that they'd be reluctant to do that lmao.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think it may be in town's best interests for masons/mayors to claim day 1. It would damage us a little if there isn't an illuminati. But if there is, the illuminati would get totally wrecked. And I think it'd be within our means to survive even if we lose confirmed towns early. We have two mislynches at our disposal. Though I recognise that they'd be reluctant to do that lmao.

Objection. Do that when we have flips, not right out of the gate lol. Else you're basically wasting their lives if there isn't an illuminati. This setup looks like it's designed to punish claims (we don't have many mislynches and we don't even know our exact enemy). I guess it could work for a mayor, though, but masons would involve too much WIFOM about CCing (and in a world with illuminati, it would be even worse because it would give us literally no info).

[yzb25]

Objection. Do that when we have flips, not right out of the gate lol. Else you're basically wasting their lives if there isn't an illuminati. This setup looks like it's designed to punish claims (we don't have many mislynches and we don't even know our exact enemy). I guess it could work for a mayor, though, but masons would involve too much WIFOM about CCing (and in a world with illuminati, it would be even worse because it would give us literally no info).

But if they come forward, we will rapidly figure out what kind of setup we're actually dealing with and how we should play the game. That is a VERY worthwhile trade. Otherwise, we'd risk having to lynch day 2 without actually being sure what we're even supposed to be lynching - just vague statistical assurance. Early mason claims come with their own minor advantages. Any potential TPR in the town random aside doctor would make drastically better choices with their day 1 / day 2 picks. But the main advantage is the actual direction we'd gain.

[Auwt]

Objection. Do that when we have flips, not right out of the gate lol. Else you're basically wasting their lives if there isn't an illuminati. This setup looks like it's designed to punish claims (we don't have many mislynches and we don't even know our exact enemy). I guess it could work for a mayor, though, but masons would involve too much WIFOM about CCing (and in a world with illuminati, it would be even worse because it would give us literally no info).

Flips won't help that much.
If you see a Sheriff claim down, we won't be able to find out whether it was a green or pink sheriff.
What it can do however is narrowing the setup exact choice.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Sorry to say, but the vote on you [Renegade] is semi-serious at this point. I'm not a fan of how quickly you went to light AtE about last game when pushed about contributions. In my experience, AtE slowly develops and then explodes. It doesn't get rolled out the moment you get slightly prodded lol. If it was Voss that would be one thing, but DM and matt have nothing to do with last game.

I'm not very impressed by the "citi claims are bad" insight either =P.

Although I also am unimpressed by Renegade's game and definetly want him to say more, I have to say it's not the first time he brings up "veteran oppression", so it's nothing new.

Flips won't help that much.
If you see a Sheriff claim down, we won't be able to find out whether it was a green or pink sheriff.
What it can do however is narrowing the setup exact choice.

True, but as you said it will make it easier to see which setup we're in. Flips can still help out at least a bit if we catch mafia, too.

[Renegade]

Although I also am unimpressed by Renegade's game and definetly want him to say more, I have to say it's not the first time he brings up "veteran oppression", so it's nothing new.


True, but as you said it will make it easier to see which setup we're in. Flips can still help out at least a bit if we catch mafia, too.

Who exactly are you impressed by then? Mesk? Asking for a friend.

[MattZed]

I think it may be in town's best interests for masons/mayors to claim day 1. It would damage us a little if there isn't an illuminati. But if there is, the illuminati would get totally wrecked. And I think it'd be within our means to survive even if we lose confirmed towns early. We have two mislynches at our disposal. Though I recognise that they'd be reluctant to do that lmao.

I disagree. If I were the conspiracy theorist, I'd probably shoot anyone who claims mayor/mason: They're either Illuminati or a TPR. If they're Illuminati, I've helped myself in setups B,C,E,F. If they're TPR, I've made it very possible to scumside in setups A/D.

I'm more on team "play this like a regular game." Let's try to find the Mafia for now: AT LEAST one of them is scum. If we're in setups A/D, both need to die, but we still need to kill one of them in setups B/C/E/F. If someone acting scummy flips town (especially Mason/Mayor), then that's a good sign there's an Illuminati.

Also,

-vote Mesk514

@Mesk514 , I'm not letting you go by most of the game not offering opinions. Get your ass in here!

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I disagree. If I were the conspiracy theorist, I'd probably shoot anyone who claims mayor/mason: They're either Illuminati or a TPR. If they're Illuminati, I've helped myself in setups B,C,E,F. If they're TPR, I've made it very possible to scumside in setups A/D.

I'm more on team "play this like a regular game." Let's try to find the Mafia for now: AT LEAST one of them is scum. If we're in setups A/D, both need to die, but we still need to kill one of them in setups B/C/E/F. If someone acting scummy flips town (especially Mason/Mayor), then that's a good sign there's an Illuminati.

Also,

-vote Mesk514

@Mesk514 , I'm not letting you go by most of the game not offering opinions. Get your ass in here!

Shit, I can't call you illuminati confirmed if you say absolutely valid stuff lol. 100 % agreed.

-unvote

[MattZed]

Shit, I can't call you illuminati confirmed if you say absolutely valid stuff lol. 100 % agreed.

-unvote

Join me in pressuring Mesk to contribute?

[Dark Magician]

Shit, I can't call you illuminati confirmed if you say absolutely valid stuff lol. 100 % agreed.

-unvote

This is the interaction.
Maybe theatre.

[yzb25]

I disagree. If I were the conspiracy theorist, I'd probably shoot anyone who claims mayor/mason: They're either Illuminati or a TPR. If they're Illuminati, I've helped myself in setups B,C,E,F. If they're TPR, I've made it very possible to scumside in setups A/D.

I'm more on team "play this like a regular game." Let's try to find the Mafia for now: AT LEAST one of them is scum. If we're in setups A/D, both need to die, but we still need to kill one of them in setups B/C/E/F. If someone acting scummy flips town (especially Mason/Mayor), then that's a good sign there's an Illuminati.

Also,

-vote Mesk514

@Mesk514 , I'm not letting you go by most of the game not offering opinions. Get your ass in here!

I didn't see the one-shot revolver. That changes the calculation. But I'd argue that's unnecessary overreach from a conspiracy theorist cuz they can just check the person and illuminati would get rekt either way if they do actually exist. (they'd get lynched the next day and then the mafia illuminati would die that night). I don't think neuts have any problem siding with evils in the late game either way tbh. But it IS possible to piss off town to the point they don't work with you.

[MattZed]

I didn't see the one-shot revolver. That changes the calculation. But I'd argue that's unnecessary overreach from a conspiracy theorist cuz they can just check the person and illuminati would get rekt either way if they do actually exist. (they'd get lynched the next day and then the mafia illuminati would die that night). I don't think neuts have any problem siding with evils in the late game either way tbh. But it IS possible to piss off town to the point they don't work with you.

I probably should have split up the mason/mayor cases more clearly. Masons are *probably* town and not the strongest Illuminati if they're Illuminati. Mayors, on the other hand, can be lethal. If we're in setup E/F and misyeet today, a night kill on town would give Illuminati the ability to instahammer by revealing their mayor.

[yzb25]

I probably should have split up the mason/mayor cases more clearly. Masons are *probably* town and not the strongest Illuminati if they're Illuminati. Mayors, on the other hand, can be lethal. If we're in setup E/F and misyeet today, a night kill on town would give Illuminati the ability to instahammer by revealing their mayor.

yh, they could reveal and lynch the friendly mafia and steal the night kill.

[Auwt]

I disagree. If I were the conspiracy theorist, I'd probably shoot anyone who claims mayor/mason: They're either Illuminati or a TPR. If they're Illuminati, I've helped myself in setups B,C,E,F. If they're TPR, I've made it very possible to scumside in setups A/D.

I'm more on team "play this like a regular game." Let's try to find the Mafia for now: AT LEAST one of them is scum. If we're in setups A/D, both need to die, but we still need to kill one of them in setups B/C/E/F. If someone acting scummy flips town (especially Mason/Mayor), then that's a good sign there's an Illuminati.

Also,

-vote Mesk514

@Mesk514 , I'm not letting you go by most of the game not offering opinions. Get your ass in here!

I would be more into finding suspicious town behaviour.
Looking at each setup, there are 4 out of 6 setups that use pink scums. So 4x3 pink scums = 12 total outcomes
So it remains only 2 out of the 6 with red scums. So 2x2 red scums = 4 total outcomes

It is way less likely to find a red scum over a pink scum.
However finding a pink scum is much harder as they could share the same alignment as we do.
Anyway, even if we end up "random lynching" (i know we surely won't lol) hitting a pink scum should be easier than a red one.
A lot of wifom can be made in this setup as almost all the roles share the illuminati alignment in the different setups.

[MattZed]

There’s also a good probability Mesk is Town PR faking Citizen.
So RN they are a Town Lean.

Why would you say this? If you actually think she's a TPR, you've started to blow her cover and make her a more likely night kill. If you think she's a cit, then you've made her look more suspicious: As you yourself said, cits are much more likely to be non-Illuminati than TPRs are. You think cit is a reliably town role, and you're putting it out there that maybe Mesk isn't one. If she's a townlean, why would you do that?

-vote Dark Magician

@Marshmallow Marshall , this is really the kind of post from DM that's bothering me. I just can't see a town perspective in it at all. I'm actually putting him in my "high effort scum" pile: he's not giving paragraphs, but he's actively trying to steer town in the wrong direction. The discredits/premature association of you/me, amplifying the views of probably-drunk Frinckles, and now casting doubt on one of his townlean's claims.

Instead of giving me your top TR?

I already posted my reads where MM was my only townread. (but right now I also have a bit of a townlean on yzb)

Ugh so many contradictory feels about Mesk.

Not a fan of the instant cit claim but I find myself liking the points she makes.

Please just vote someone. Either agree with me/MM that Mesk is suspicious and vote her, agree with Mesk that Me and MM are scummy, or follow your own instincts and go after someone else you think is suspicious. We can't afford to throw today away.

*moves a little bit closer to Matt's pocket*

I assume you meant "MM and Matt are in sync" given the context, not "Frinckles and Matt", because I am definetly not seeing the sync between you two xD.

The point about yzb's thoughts being simple mechanical ponderings that are purely NAI is a good one; however, what makes him towny imo is mostly his reaction to Martin's claim. Granted it's not a major townlean, though, and it's highly perishable (keep in a cool, dry place with a lot of future contributions).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Renegade was rather against you pressuring people because "it's too early" and because "we're veterans trying to impose our vision of Mafia to the people" or something like that? I definetly agree that he needs to do more, but I don't see where you two agreed o.O.

Not sure which one of "soft scumread" and "scumlean" is the most scummy, btw.

Yeah, I meant you and me. Frinckles and I are NOT on the same wavelength, and I want to hear some followups from him when he gets back online.

Renegade was with me on the idea that cit claiming is scummy. I don't like how he's not willing to vote Mesk/DM for claiming cit and I'm puzzled by him being conflicted on Mesk, but when I made that posts I was just talking about how he agreed cit claims are at least a little scummy.

Given from how I’m seeing this.
Even though they aren’t saying it.
Both MM and Matt are applying that they top TR each other.

"Even though they aren't saying." Is anyone else hearing the blatant misrep? I posted reads on EVERYONE, and I believe MM has basically done the same. He's trying to make it sound like we're not giving opinions when we're basically the only two to give opinions on basically everyone.

wow, congratulations, he got me to post... even though i would have had to post anyways, since his call was 17 posts in and it's day 1. derpderpderp.
I don't know you IRL, so how do I know what your real life intelligence is like? so yeah, my image of you sitting with a helmet right now is totally based off how you're playing rn 😂. please display more intelligence in the game, this is a disappointing level for a ladder game.

Do you really expect us to believe you would have contributed exactly the same amount if you weren't pressured? As I've already explained, you're the type of player to respond to pressure. I'm not scumreading you *for responding,* but if you're town take a step back and realize that I got you to post thoughts on this game. I'm going to prod anyone I think I can get information out of, especially in a setup that allows so few misyeets.

@Renegade thoughts on DM?

I am also very interested to hear this.

I would be more into finding suspicious town behaviour.
Looking at each setup, there are 4 out of 6 setups that use pink scums. So 4x3 pink scums = 12 total outcomes
So it remains only 2 out of the 6 with red scums. So 2x2 red scums = 4 total outcomes

It is way less likely to find a red scum over a pink scum.
However finding a pink scum is much harder as they could share the same alignment as we do.
Anyway, even if we end up "random lynching" (i know we surely won't lol) hitting a pink scum should be easier than a red one.
A lot of wifom can be made in this setup as almost all the roles share the illuminati alignment in the different setups.

Your math is a little off: Setups A/D are twice as likely, so comparatively you're looking at something like 8 total red scum outcomes. It may be less likely, but there's still a very good chance of just finding mafia in setups A/D. (I agree that in setups B/C/E/F we're more likely to yeet Illuminati with how many of them there, though.)

[Auwt]

Your math is a little off: Setups A/D are twice as likely, so comparatively you're looking at something like 8 total red scum outcomes. It may be less likely, but there's still a very good chance of just finding mafia in setups A/D. (I agree that in setups B/C/E/F we're more likely to yeet Illuminati with how many of them there, though.)

How so?

[Dark Magician]

Why would you say this? If you actually think she's a TPR, you've started to blow her cover and make her a more likely night kill. If you think she's a cit, then you've made her look more suspicious: As you yourself said, cits are much more likely to be non-Illuminati than TPRs are. You think cit is a reliably town role, and you're putting it out there that maybe Mesk isn't one. If she's a townlean, why would you do that?

-vote Dark Magician

@Marshmallow Marshall , this is really the kind of post from DM that's bothering me. I just can't see a town perspective in it at all. I'm actually putting him in my "high effort scum" pile: he's not giving paragraphs, but he's actively trying to steer town in the wrong direction. The discredits/premature association of you/me, amplifying the views of probably-drunk Frinckles, and now casting doubt on one of his townlean's claims.



I already posted my reads where MM was my only townread. (but right now I also have a bit of a townlean on yzb)



Please just vote someone. Either agree with me/MM that Mesk is suspicious and vote her, agree with Mesk that Me and MM are scummy, or follow your own instincts and go after someone else you think is suspicious. We can't afford to throw today away.



Yeah, I meant you and me. Frinckles and I are NOT on the same wavelength, and I want to hear some followups from him when he gets back online.

Renegade was with me on the idea that cit claiming is scummy. I don't like how he's not willing to vote Mesk/DM for claiming cit and I'm puzzled by him being conflicted on Mesk, but when I made that posts I was just talking about how he agreed cit claims are at least a little scummy.



"Even though they aren't saying." Is anyone else hearing the blatant misrep? I posted reads on EVERYONE, and I believe MM has basically done the same. He's trying to make it sound like we're not giving opinions when we're basically the only two to give opinions on basically everyone.



Do you really expect us to believe you would have contributed exactly the same amount if you weren't pressured? As I've already explained, you're the type of player to respond to pressure. I'm not scumreading you *for responding,* but if you're town take a step back and realize that I got you to post thoughts on this game. I'm going to prod anyone I think I can get information out of, especially in a setup that allows so few misyeets.



I am also very interested to hear this.



Your math is a little off: Setups A/D are twice as likely, so comparatively you're looking at something like 8 total red scum outcomes. It may be less likely, but there's still a very good chance of just finding mafia in setups A/D. (I agree that in setups B/C/E/F we're more likely to yeet Illuminati with how many of them there, though.)

Not sure if it was here but I stopped reading this after they said MM was their only TR when they TR’ed YZB before I even did.

[Dark Magician]

I disagree. If I were the conspiracy theorist, I'd probably shoot anyone who claims mayor/mason: They're either Illuminati or a TPR. If they're Illuminati, I've helped myself in setups B,C,E,F. If they're TPR, I've made it very possible to scumside in setups A/D.

I'm more on team "play this like a regular game." Let's try to find the Mafia for now: AT LEAST one of them is scum. If we're in setups A/D, both need to die, but we still need to kill one of them in setups B/C/E/F. If someone acting scummy flips town (especially Mason/Mayor), then that's a good sign there's an Illuminati.

Also,

-vote Mesk514

@Mesk514 , I'm not letting you go by most of the game not offering opinions. Get your ass in here!

I missed this post before but don’t Illuminati flip Illuminati?

[MattZed]

I missed this post before but don’t Illuminati flip Illuminati?

Does anyone actually believe that Mr. Worldbuilder missed the fact that EVERY ILLUMINATI ROLECARD says they don't flip as Illuminati?

[yzb25]

Eh, it was a long shot either way. We can just play this normally and scumhunt then I guess.

[Dark Magician]

Ok so I’m Hard Claiming Citizen.
My role is the most useless role for town in this setup.
I am the best ML for town.
I ain’t voting for anyone until I feel strongly on someone.
Also if Illuminate exists, don’t trust any other RT claims.

-vote Dark Magician

[MattZed]

Ok so I’m Hard Claiming Citizen.
My role is the most useless role for town in this setup.
I am the best ML for town.
I ain’t voting for anyone until I feel strongly on someone.
Also if Illuminate exists, don’t trust any other RT claims.

-vote Dark Magician

...why are you claiming?

If you're actually a citizen, you WANT to be taking night kills for our TPRs, because we probably don't have a doc. (I'm counting the non-Illuminati GF/Consig and Conspiracy Theorist as TPRs if there's an Illuminati) This really feels a lot more like an Illuminati play: claim citizen so the godfather doesn't shoot you. (Or so the Illuminati godfather doesn't look suspicious for avoiding you)

-vote Dark Magician

[Dark Magician]

...why are you claiming?

If you're actually a citizen, you WANT to be taking night kills for our TPRs, because we probably don't have a doc. (I'm counting the non-Illuminati GF/Consig and Conspiracy Theorist as TPRs if there's an Illuminati) This really feels a lot more like an Illuminati play: claim citizen so the godfather doesn't shoot you. (Or so the Illuminati godfather doesn't look suspicious for avoiding you)

-vote Dark Magician

Or I like never win against the my Illuminati counter part because they are a PR.

[Frinckles]

Or I like never win against the my Illuminati counter part because they are a PR.

You aren't as upset about rolling cit :0

[Dark Magician]

You aren't as upset about rolling cit :0

I’m very upset.
Never said I wasn’t, in fact I was implying that I was.
I was just saying that if Illuminati exists, town already lost if they ML anyone other then me.

[yzb25]

Ok so I’m Hard Claiming Citizen.
My role is the most useless role for town in this setup.
I am the best ML for town.
I ain’t voting for anyone until I feel strongly on someone.
Also if Illuminate exists, don’t trust any other RT claims.

-vote Dark Magician

I'm curious why you make it sound like you're interested in a no-vote, or at least have an aversion to a lynch in general. no-lynches kill day 1s I find

[Auwt]

I'm curious why you make it sound like you're interested in a no-vote, or at least have an aversion to a lynch in general. no-lynches kill day 1s I find

I don't think it's an aversion, just a stand-by vote before finding something interesting I guess.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Ok so I’m Hard Claiming Citizen.
My role is the most useless role for town in this setup.
I am the best ML for town.
I ain’t voting for anyone until I feel strongly on someone.
Also if Illuminate exists, don’t trust any other RT claims.

-vote Dark Magician

This benefits the town in no way. Mislynching isn't a goal, that's dumb lol. By claiming, you're letting scum (whoever they are) target someone who isn't citizen.

But actually, now that I think past face value of this claim, I find it also doesn't benefit scum!DM to do that: it puts him in a bad light at the very beginning without giving any benefits. So even though I strongly disagree with the claim, it's not grounds for lynch imo. Going back to the pressuring mesk to do something plan.

-vote Mesk514

[Dark Magician]

Yea, D1 reveal is bad (and will only come from town who's gonna die N1 anyway, unless there's a doctor, which isn't very likely and shouldn't be gambled on).

I could get behind that, but I saw something else that I'll address in my next post which will warrant my vote...

-vote Dark Magician

^ let's just play normally for now
Which leads me to my next post.....

This benefits the town in no way. Mislynching isn't a goal, that's dumb lol. By claiming, you're letting scum (whoever they are) target someone who isn't citizen.

But actually, now that I think past face value of this claim, I find it also doesn't benefit scum!DM to do that: it puts him in a bad light at the very beginning without giving any benefits. So even though I strongly disagree with the claim, it's not grounds for lynch imo. Going back to the pressuring mesk to do something plan.

-vote Mesk514

Eh yeah could still very well be scum theatre.

[Renegade]

Ok so I’m Hard Claiming Citizen.
My role is the most useless role for town in this setup.
I am the best ML for town.
I ain’t voting for anyone until I feel strongly on someone.
Also if Illuminate exists, don’t trust any other RT claims.

-vote Dark Magician

It is funny to see the dramatic course correction from DM and this entry post after the very poor reaction to it. Kind of like Disney Star Wars.

[yzb25]

tbh, now I sit here and think about it more, 1:43am yzb realizes only town mayor would listen to a request to reveal day 1. Illuminati mayor can just shirk the request and take the free win day 2.

Yup, I think ima put this massclaim idea to bed lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I'm a little torn on what a town mayor should do: A town mayor KNOWS we're in setup D. They're a powerful TPR, and our chances of having a doc to protect them is small. They should probably be revealing D2/D3 when they can help with PoE, but right now they'd just be fodder to a night kill.

Yea, D1 reveal is bad (and will only come from town who's gonna die N1 anyway, unless there's a doctor, which isn't very likely and shouldn't be gambled on).

Join me in pressuring Mesk to contribute?

I could get behind that, but I saw something else that I'll address in my next post which will warrant my vote...

-vote Dark Magician

tbh, now I sit here and think about it more, 1:43am yzb realizes only town mayor would listen to a request to reveal day 1. Illuminati mayor can just shirk the request and take the free win day 2.

Yup, I think ima put this massclaim idea to bed lol

^ let's just play normally for now
Which leads me to my next post.....

[MartinGG99]

Oh and I hardclaim conspiracy theorist.

I'm recanting n1, with full acknowledgement that this gives ~65% chance of just out-right losing on my part.

(50/50 from chances of Illuminati existing and I auto-lose as per role-card, and another 15% chance where I live and rand jester and lose horribly because I hardclaimed my role and intent here).

Since I have an auto-vest on n1, I can only be killed by my own action on N1, thus meaning if I die there is 100% illuminati.

And if I don't die, there 100% is NO illuminati.

I'm partially doing this because I don't wish to live to n2 or n3 having to deal with possible illuminati mind-fuckery.

[MartinGG99]

Oh and I hardclaim conspiracy theorist.

I'm recanting n1, with full acknowledgement that this gives ~65% chance of just out-right losing on my part.

(50/50 from chances of Illuminati existing and I auto-lose as per role-card, and another 15% chance where I live and rand jester and lose horribly because I hardclaimed my role and intent here).

Since I have an auto-vest on n1, I can only be killed by my own action on N1, thus meaning if I die there is 100% illuminati.

And if I don't die, there 100% is NO illuminati.

I'm partially doing this because I don't wish to live to n2 or n3 having to deal with possible illuminati mind-fuckery.

But, on the plus side,

If there is Illuminati then I just saved the non-illuminati faction a ton and don't have to worry about who's mafia and who's town.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Incorrect actually.

Illuminati role variants for the mafia can't backstab/night-kill their mafia buds. The real non-illuminati ones can. Hence why there's two role-cards in the setup for illuminati and non-illuminati ones.

So if there's an illuminati witch hunt the godfather or the consigliere can kill each other if they're the real one

Thus proving them as....uh...."town" non-illuminati.

Unless they're both non-illuminati and they kill each other in a single night, in which case that's very bad if there's illuminati (or very good for town if there isn't illuminati).

Some things are better left unsaid xD.
This isn't scummy since if you were any scum role, you could just point it out in your chat when the time comes, but meh.

Oh and I hardclaim conspiracy theorist.

I'm recanting n1, with full acknowledgement that this gives ~65% chance of just out-right losing on my part.

(50/50 from chances of Illuminati existing and I auto-lose as per role-card, and another 15% chance where I live and rand jester and lose horribly because I hardclaimed my role and intent here).

Since I have an auto-vest on n1, I can only be killed by my own action on N1, thus meaning if I die there is 100% illuminati.

And if I don't die, there 100% is NO illuminati.

I'm partially doing this because I don't wish to live to n2 or n3 having to deal with possible illuminati mind-fuckery.

If there is illuminati and a townie dies N1, asssuming we mislynch today (which isn't very unlikely), the Illuminati instantly win. This is even more true if there's an illuminati Mayor, in which case we literally lose right away if there are illuminati.
As for you benefiting from that or not, well, you're literally throwing your game away in most cases as you pointed out yourself. The setup isn't meant for that, and you aren't supposed to want to play this suboptimally xD.

But, on the plus side,

If there is Illuminati then I just saved the non-illuminati faction a ton and don't have to worry about who's mafia and who's town.

no, you simply screw us over in most cases because we effectively lose a townie :P

[MattZed]

Some things are better left unsaid xD.
This isn't scummy since if you were any scum role, you could just point it out in your chat when the time comes, but meh.

If there is illuminati and a townie dies N1, asssuming we mislynch today (which isn't very unlikely), the Illuminati instantly win. This is even more true if there's an illuminati Mayor, in which case we literally lose right away if there are illuminati.
As for you benefiting from that or not, well, you're literally throwing your game away in most cases as you pointed out yourself. The setup isn't meant for that, and you aren't supposed to want to play this suboptimally xD.


no, you simply screw us over in most cases because we effectively lose a townie :P

Hi, I already said this.