@deathworlds is there any evidence of malicious intent?
@deathworlds is there any evidence of malicious intent?
js, i called this after he used his mod status to steer daychat in an sfm i was in.
staff shouldnt be allowed to participate
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
even if it isnt his intention, if he types *mod hat on* and starts trying to dictate how ppl are gonna play while he is also a player in that sfm, you're naive or ignorant to think that a. he isn't steering the overall day chat, and b. pocketing players who are afraid of going against an admin
if staff play in an sfm, they should play on smurfs where NOBODY knows their identity and go through the proper report procedures. not pinging a bud on discord saying "yo, write this up for me"
For @Marshmallow Marshall and @Mesk514 , I strongly suggest you guys bury the hatchet before you start hating each other. Trust me, I have personal experience with this.
Mushroom Kingdom 2. I made a post about it in adminhall and got a bunch of non-answers and walking around the subject without actually addressing it. I was gonna be a cunt to people who didn't deserve it so I left it be at that point.
If he's done it before he was staff it would have just been steering the daychat as a player does normally. It would even have been fine if he'd told Bruno to knock it off with the bullshit without emoting about his hat but there's no way he didn't at least affect some type of perception in game because of his staff status.
That whole game we had a talk about avatars and a ton of people agreed that changing just your avatar alters perception, I got Ceko lunched partially because of him changing his avatar. I absofuckinglutely guarantee playing with the red name alters perception, too.
Whether it's advantageous or not is debatable but playing with staff colors is altering perception in a way which is unavailable to most people and it's inherently unbalanced. Continuing to do so after they've been made aware of it is choosing to swing admin dick around in games knowing that it affects the outcome.
I'm going to clarify my position, and my perspective.
I won't tolerate any people thinking that I braindead followed MM towards punishment, in fact I was the very first person to suggest that something needed to be done after receiving a report and reading the game. I was not made aware of any interactions between MM and mesk, whatsoever before I suggested that. I just wanted to clear that up, I'm not a puppet for MM, lol.
So here's how my thought processes laid out when reading the game based off of four main events.
1.) Auto-vest fail
This seemed like an honest mistake, one that I'm guilty of myself, forgetting the immunities of a role. Had this alone happened, I'm doubtful this thread would be made, or that anything would've came out of the report on Mesk.
2.) First no-flip
This seemed odd to me, and I was genuinely confused, I thought Mesk was just on mobile or something when day ended and genuinely forgot what role Frinckles was, I assumed Mesk would just update later, guess I was wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
3.) Second no-flip
At this point something was up, and from my perspective it seemed like two scenarios were likely
A.) Mesk deliberately changed the setup for some reason. or
B.) Stopped caring about the game.
At this point I didn't make any sort of judgement about whichever it was, but those two scenarios were in my head when reading.
4.) Game end post
This made me believe that Mesk stopped caring about the integrity of the game, specifically this passage
The marked lines in particular made me believe that Mesk stopped caring about hosting in an ethical manner. Which I don't think is an absolutely wild assumption for an outside observer to make. Also, the fact that neither MM or I had any positive interactions with Mesk regarding this whole situation didn't help me believe that Mesk made changes for purposes of emergency balancing, or really cared about the game outside of the bare minimum. So I assumed the worst.I apologize for fucking up MM's flip, I was in a rush to start the day as I was late with starting that day. Since Zedus wants to be a cuck and spam with how I ruined the game, I just decided to ruin it further, and look it did nothing for him.
I'll probably be banned from further hosting for telling MM to literally take whatever he's trying to talk to me about and shoving it up his ass, but that's okay, given I haven't hosted anything in like 2 years. and that's okay.
Side note, no clue how you guys let Zedus win, but I guess that's what happens when you get a C tier roster at the most.
What would of helped was knowing if there was any host to player communication about the changes made, which outside of this thread there was no indication of such what-so-ever. Assuming that there was at least some form of communication about it, then that really helps Mesk's case in my eyes, but again, since there was no public communication about it, as an outside observer, I was left assuming the worst. So as of now, my "guilty" verdict stands on the basis that Mesk either stopped caring about the integrity game, or changed the setup for malicious purposes.
As a host, I will stand by saying that if any changes are made to the setup, or any host errors are made, then the host should be publicly upfront about it to some degree. That's just a personal thing, not anything intractable or punishable about that in my eyes.
If Mesk wants to make an appeal and provide some modicum of evidence that she communicated with her players about the setup being suddenly flipless, then I will gladly overturn the hosting ban, specifically if she can provide any evidence to this line.
Alternatively, if the original reporter wishes to retract their report in some form, then I suppose that would be grounds for an overturn as well, we really don't have any official protocol for this kind of thing yet.
Sorry if any of this doesn't really flow well, I just got off shift, been up for 18 hours, and am half-way through a glass of vodka.
‘I decided to ruin it further’ is very clearly a joke.
i just love your ability to pick and choose which things to respond to, it really blows my mind.
anyways I've made my point, I laid out my thought processes, however flawed you may believe them to be, and offered a very direct path for an appeal for both mesk and the reporter.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
Regardless of how I feel about a ban being unnecessary here, I still appreciate the fact that deathworlds gave us an honest answer on their thoughts and that this could have easily been a different conversation had this been done in the first place.
I still think that if this was anyone else being reported this situation would not be resulting in a ban. Even if you aren't trying to be biased, when you make comments like "I thought Mesk was just on mobile or something when day ended and genuinely forgot what role Frinckles was" You're really not giving her much credit here.
It speaks to the level of hand-picking who we want banned or not banned, although I believe this is an entirely different conversation for some other day.
Speaking of staff being anon in games, maybe making anon games the default for ladder
@deathworlds Thanks for your input on the situation as a whole.
All of that blatantly contradicts @Marshmallow Marshall though
So your assumption, which was made about a situation in which you had a very personal stake, is enough to give out a ban, then? And you don't see the problem with that?
staff is just watching as mm goes above and beyond punishing mesk for an honest host mistake
Sorry if that was unclear, but it's not "my assumption", and you are omitting to include a word: reasonable (as in "reasonably deemed"). It was the reasonable assumption of FM staff as a whole (and Deathworlds talked about that too) that Mesk maliciously stopped flipping people. I had already explained that in my first posts in this thread, and Deathworlds explained his take on it here. It literally explains the reasoning. It's an assumption because we cannot prove beyond any doubt that someone's intention was malicious, but we can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, which is what was done.
And by the way, there's a misconception that seems common for some reason, so let's make something clear:
Originally Posted by the verdict postAt no point was Mesk punished for not having triggered the autovest, because that was deemed to be an honest mistake by staff, and we don't punish honest mistakes.Originally Posted by deathworlds in this thread
I do feel the judgement was too harsh
I dont think its fair to question Marshmallow Marshalls integrity.
Deathworlds reasoning makes a lot of sense to speak to FM staff assuming Mesk was intentionally trolling although the action in question preserved the game functioning.
Questioning if it was an allowed action given Mesk pretty much posted she would make all calls without limits is an entire discussion in itself. I played one bastardized setup where the Host had told town they were lost mafia but told the mafia their team which received some hard backlash. Thats the closest game I can compare this situation to. (For those that dont know Bastard setups allow for the host to influence the game and lie to the players)
I will also say it sucks to moderate and have a trial by public after the fact. I think a simple appeal would resolve everything easily given Deathworlds last post and its not really any of our place to question their judgment. The appeals system is specifically designed to prevent bias and would probably stop all the drama. There is no need to fracture a community so small when such a path to resolution exists.
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
the people want freedom for mesk
Free Mesk
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
marshmallow be like: im doing so much to keep the site alive
also marshmallow: doesnt host
also marshmallow: bans active hosts
also marshmallow: refuses to heal divide