General Concerns about Names

[kildja]

I've been seeing a disturbing trend lately of people naming themselves disturbing names lately. Not dark humor stuff or even the stupid vet bait names with the "n"-word, but actually disturbing names like "I rape children" or "I cum in kids."

In fact, I have a replay with one such individual who after being lynched, started spouting off horrendous drivel. I don't want to repeat it, but you can read it for yourself in the replay.

Disgusting.SC2Replay

My question is what do we do about these people? My gut instinct is to just kill/lynch them on site, but I also don't want to gamethrow on account of people being disgusting. I've seen posts on here where people have asked for filtering of racist content, and the mods seemed to indicate that a filter is just too resource intensive/too easy to get around/not really a priority. I would report them, but I'm not sure if naming yourself something like that and/or engaging in crude pedo/rapist talk is a reportable offense.

TL;DR: We can't auto-lynch/filter the language of/report people masquerading as rapist pedophiles. What can we do about them?

[BananaCucho]

Something something "blizzard's problem"

[Firebringer]

I heard of this cool amendment to the constitution. Its called the first amendment.

[Helz]

Accept their existence and learn to adjust ourselves to our environment as opposed to expecting our environment to adjust to us.

[Voss]

Is it actually against the sc2arcade rules to vote out these people? I'm not saying this is a solution, but I'd be shocked if the sc2 staff punish people for "policy votes/kills"

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Is it actually against the sc2arcade rules to vote out these people? I'm not saying this is a solution, but I'd be shocked if the sc2 staff punish people for "policy votes/kills"

I'm pretty sure it depends on the situation: if the guy happens to be clearly confirmed town or if there's a confirmed scum to lynch instead in a MYLO situation, then it'd definetly be pushnishable imo. But someone spamming racist, pedo or other unacceptable stuff on D1? That's probably allowed lol.

Probably mandatory disclaimer: note that I am not part of the Arcade staff and that this only reflects my own views on the matter

[Oberon]

why is spamming dirty things bad
sounds like the guy is trying to offend people and succeeding at it.

[Oberon]

Accept their existence and learn to adjust ourselves to our environment as opposed to expecting our environment to adjust to us.

+1

[Voss]

Petition to allow townsmembers to vote out confirmed mayors if they start spouting batshit horrendous please and not get watch listed please.

[BananaCucho]

Petition to allow townsmembers to vote out confirmed mayors if they start spouting batshit horrendous please and not get watch listed please.

+1

[Auwt]

Petition to allow townsmembers to vote out confirmed mayors if they start spouting batshit horrendous please and not get watch listed please.

I believe everyone dislike when someone start talking crappily, or hate speech and so on...
Still, there are two things to consider in that case.
Is it Gamethrowing to kill our own mayor and therefore playing in a intentional way to lose or is it okay because Mayor is bothering everyone with such speeches.
If you are ready to lower Town's chances to win, while you are town, it usually means you are gamethrowing.
Personally, if such thing would happen, I would obviously take into consideration the context, as it seems to be the only key to solve that kind of issue.
That would go under the Reactionary Gamethrowing section, for example.

Accept their existence and learn to adjust ourselves to our environment as opposed to expecting our environment to adjust to us.

I just feel it's a little bit sad that some players in the community do such things like naming themselves not in a proper/politicaly correct way, keeping to use several words that relate in one of the overall families of racism and so on.
Accepting their existence would inevitably mean they are right.
And I personally don't think they are.

[DJarJar]

excessive spam that is filling up the chat can be reported for griefing

[BananaCucho]

I believe everyone dislike when someone start talking crappily, or hate speech and so on...
Still, there are two things to consider in that case.
Is it Gamethrowing to kill our own mayor and therefore playing in a intentional way to lose or is it okay because Mayor is bothering everyone with such speeches.
If you are ready to lower Town's chances to win, while you are town, it usually means you are gamethrowing.
Personally, if such thing would happen, I would obviously take into consideration the context, as it seems to be the only key to solve that kind of issue.
That would go under the Reactionary Gamethrowing section, for example.



I just feel it's a little bit sad that some players in the community do such things like naming themselves not in a proper/politicaly correct way, keeping to use several words that relate in one of the overall families of racism and so on.
Accepting their existence would inevitably mean they are right.
And I personally don't think they are.

A game where I am punished for gamethrowing for policy eliminating someone spamming horrendously awful shit is not a game worth playing

If that horrendous content is protected from moderation, reactions to that horrendous content should be as well.

[Voss]

A game where I am punished for gamethrowing for policy eliminating someone spamming horrendously awful shit is not a game worth playing

If that horrendous content is protected from moderation, reactions to that horrendous content should be as well.

+2

[Auwt]

A game where I am punished for gamethrowing for policy eliminating someone spamming horrendously awful shit is not a game worth playing

If that horrendous content is protected from moderation, reactions to that horrendous content should be as well.

I fully agree with this, something has to be done.
But then again, you have to put the limits and really define what is "horrendously awful shit" and what isn't.
In any case, even if you do a good action by limiting such trolls impact, you are still obstructing your side win condition.
It's really case and report processor dependant at least for now.
I personally hate those kind of people, but real gamethrower could take the opportunity to easily gamethrow a confirmed horrible Townie without being punished if we decide not to give any punishment to those guys.
There should be a list of words/expressions defined that would eventually give more credits to those people that just want to have a fun game without those trolls.

[BananaCucho]

I fully agree with this, something has to be done.
But then again, you have to put the limits and really define what is "horrendously awful shit" and what isn't.
In any case, even if you do a good action by limiting such trolls impact, you are still obstructing your side win condition.
It's really case and report processor dependant at least for now.
I personally hate those kind of people, but real gamethrower could take the opportunity to easily gamethrow a confirmed horrible Townie without being punished if we decide not to give any punishment to those guys.
There should be a list of words/expressions defined that would eventually give more credits to those people that just want to have a fun game without those trolls.

It's a game

Games are meant to be fun

If something is inherently unfun, I'd gamethrow in an instant to get rid of it over leaving the unfun aspect in "because its against my wincon to kill it"

[Voss]

I think admins should fire arcade staff that can't tell the difference. I also, at the same time, have full confidence in the current arcade staff to make the correct calls if they see this behavior in a report.

Can someone post an example of some subjectively questionable scenario?

My point is, that we might fear that there's a grey line, but it seems to me that that grey line is razor thin.

[Renegade]

Yeah this has become an epidemic thanks to the likes of yodaddy, Cute, and PandaCA.

They should all be banned. Somehow Yodiddy dodged his most recent report about it. "Appealed"

[Auwt]

It's a game

Games are meant to be fun

If something is inherently unfun, I'd gamethrow in an instant to get rid of it over leaving the unfun aspect in "because its against my wincon to kill it"

I understand your pov, but solving a crime with another crime is probably not the best idea, even if the overall crime goal is to make the game fun.
This is a really straight forward way of thinking, as both the parties are committing crimes there. One might have lead the other, but yeah.

[BananaCucho]

I understand your pov, but solving a crime with another crime is probably not the best idea, even if the overall crime goal is to make the game fun.
This is a really straight forward way of thinking, as both the parties are committing crimes there. One might have lead the other, but yeah.

Except with a refusal to acknowledge or recognize one as a crime (deal with it, live around it, etc), it isn't fair to punish the 2nd reactionary crime (vigilante justice)

[BananaCucho]

@Auwt this argument reminds me of that cop dude that gave up chasing Bain's men cause he was too excited about taking down Batman

[Helz]

I just feel it's a little bit sad that some players in the community do such things like naming themselves not in a proper/politicaly correct way, keeping to use several words that relate in one of the overall families of racism and so on.
Accepting their existence would inevitably mean they are right.
And I personally don't think they are.

I agree its sad. But understand there is some pathetic person on the other end baiting for outrage because they desperately need attention. When they are so damaged as a person they have to resort to that kind of behavior to meet their basic needs you should offer them your pity because that makes them face themselves while its your anger, attention, and reaction that they crave.

At the end of the day Activation has replaced Blizzard and they give no fucks about their community. There are things you can change in life and there are things you can only accept.

[Oberon]

I believe everyone dislike when someone start talking crappily, or hate speech and so on...
Still, there are two things to consider in that case.
Is it Gamethrowing to kill our own mayor and therefore playing in a intentional way to lose or is it okay because Mayor is bothering everyone with such speeches.
If you are ready to lower Town's chances to win, while you are town, it usually means you are gamethrowing.
Personally, if such thing would happen, I would obviously take into consideration the context, as it seems to be the only key to solve that kind of issue.
That would go under the Reactionary Gamethrowing section, for example.



I just feel it's a little bit sad that some players in the community do such things like naming themselves not in a proper/politicaly correct way, keeping to use several words that relate in one of the overall families of racism and so on.
Accepting their existence would inevitably mean they are right.
And I personally don't think they are.

Accepting people’s existence doesn’t mean you agree with them.
Also, spamming the n-word or using the n-word as a name should be allowed. Mafia is a very raunchy game and people do quite... offensive things in there. I think they should be allowed to do it as long as they don’t break the rules.

I don’t even and probably won’t ever play the mod again, so I don’t really care much either way, but that’s my take on it.

[Oberon]

I agree its sad. But understand there is some pathetic person on the other end baiting for outrage because they desperately need attention. When they are so damaged as a person they have to resort to that kind of behavior to meet their basic needs you should offer them your pity because that makes them face themselves while its your anger, attention, and reaction that they crave.

At the end of the day Activation has replaced Blizzard and they give no fucks about their community. There are things you can change in life and there are things you can only accept.

I don’t really agree that spamming or using the n word makes one a pathetic person; there’s plenty of people who troll online or do that as a way of ‘venting’. Not everyone who does that is ‘pathetic’. I personally troll a lot in games. I’ve used the n-word before to vet-bait or to pretend to be vet baiting (iit works more often than you might expect )

[BananaCucho]

I don’t really agree that spamming or using the n word makes one a pathetic person; there’s plenty of people who troll online or do that as a way of ‘venting’. Not everyone who does that is ‘pathetic’. I personally troll a lot in games. I’ve used the n-word before to vet-bait or to pretend to be vet baiting (iit works more often than you might expect )

....

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think it's stupid. But should it be outruled? ...Eeehhh, maybe not, unless it goes into really deeply offensive things (such as naming yourself "I rape children" and "roleplaying" as it... I've seen that happen, and I strongly doubt it amuses anyone). The arcade map is known to be a bit of a wild cowboy land when it comes to language, and a great majority of its community accepts that. And since so many people accept it and would very likely be angry if it were to be regulated, I'm going to go with the classic argument in favor of capitalism: if you don't like it, don't play it (or play it with friends/people you know won't do it).

[Exeter350]

I don’t really agree that spamming or using the n word makes one a pathetic person; there’s plenty of people who troll online or do that as a way of ‘venting’. Not everyone who does that is ‘pathetic’. I personally troll a lot in games. I’ve used the n-word before to vet-bait or to pretend to be vet baiting (iit works more often than you might expect )

If the intention is “strategy” then I can respect that.

But I think for most trolls, the intention is “piss people off for the lols”.
In which case it IS pathetic.
Is “pissing people off” really the best way to release stress and anger?
It speaks volumes about their character.

And worst still, if hurting other people is how they feel better, don’t you think there’ll be more stress relief if they could do it irl?
E.g. The bully who can beat wimps up, the abusive dad who can beat the helpless kid, the boss who can shout at his employees, etc etc.

The fact that they are so powerless irl and have to resort to online trolling to vent just shows how pathetic they are.

DISCLAIMER: Not advocating people to be assholes irl. Trying to illustrate (1) “hurting other people to feel good” is bad, (2) online trolls are so weak, they can’t even do that irl.

If I were them, I’d channel my energy into improving myself or my environment, instead of creating problems for other people.

[Oberon]

I think it's stupid. But should it be outruled? ...Eeehhh, maybe not, unless it goes into really deeply offensive things (such as naming yourself "I rape children" and "roleplaying" as it... I've seen that happen, and I strongly doubt it amuses anyone). The arcade map is known to be a bit of a wild cowboy land when it comes to language, and a great majority of its community accepts that. And since so many people accept it and would very likely be angry if it were to be regulated, I'm going to go with the classic argument in favor of capitalism: if you don't like it, don't play it (or play it with friends/people you know won't do it).

+1

[Helz]

I don’t really agree that spamming or using the n word makes one a pathetic person; there’s plenty of people who troll online or do that as a way of ‘venting’. Not everyone who does that is ‘pathetic’. I personally troll a lot in games. I’ve used the n-word before to vet-bait or to pretend to be vet baiting (iit works more often than you might expect )

I think there is a classier way of going about that. One of my more successful techniques was pretending to just discover the audio for a role was based off music. (If you dig through the unit audio files almost every statement has some hidden reference or meme and I believe the BG was a Bon Jovi lyric if memory serves)

Shock value through offence is something I dont have much respect for personally.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think there is a classier way of going about that. One of my more successful techniques was pretending to just discover the audio for a role was based off music. (If you dig through the unit audio files almost every statement has some hidden reference or meme and I believe the BG was a Bon Jovi lyric if memory serves)

Shock value through offence is something I dont have much respect for personally.

I find it unclassy too, but I don't exclude it from the realm of legitimate strategies. If you dig, I'm pretty sure you can find the Sun Tzu quote about insulting the enemy general to make him angry so that he makes mistakes and falls in your traps.

[BananaCucho]

I find it unclassy too, but I don't exclude it from the realm of legitimate strategies. If you dig, I'm pretty sure you can find the Sun Tzu quote about insulting the enemy general to make him angry so that he makes mistakes and falls in your traps.

So why dont we allow this strategy in FM?

[Voss]

So why dont we allow this strategy in FM?

You are thinking the same thing I am.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

So why dont we allow this strategy in FM?

Heh, I had the feeling this question would come

I think it's stupid. But should it be outruled? ...Eeehhh, maybe not, unless it goes into really deeply offensive things (such as naming yourself "I rape children" and "roleplaying" as it... I've seen that happen, and I strongly doubt it amuses anyone). The arcade map is known to be a bit of a wild cowboy land when it comes to language, and a great majority of its community accepts that. And since so many people accept it and would very likely be angry if it were to be regulated, I'm going to go with the classic argument in favor of capitalism: if you don't like it, don't play it (or play it with friends/people you know won't do it).

The arcade has long been and most importantly consistently been the Far West when it comes to language and personal attacks. This led a great majority of the community to accepting that reality and to embracing it. If it were to be outruled, there would certainly be considerable anger in the community, and I believe a non-zero part of the playerbase would simply leave the game because of it.

On the other hand, FM has always had more regulations than arcade when it comes to that. More importantly, some years ago, the FM community completely changed and was made exclusively of new members who established a new, less toxic standard without even having a moderation team. The community then welcomed new and old members alike, and nearly all of them followed that new standard pretty happily. Unlike in the arcade, the majority would be angry if the aforementioned toxic behavior were tolerated. It's a matter of culture.
Plus, aside from all considerations of what the FM community considers as fun, the FM community has the concern of bringing new people from other communities in; those communities happen to have standards that come really, really, really much closer to the FM community's current standards than to the arcade community's.
This leads me to use the same argument about capitalism; it's just that the majority's culture is completely different.

[rumox]

This concern is basically attributed towards a very small subset of the player base you can count on one hand. Yes there is vulgar shit said in arcade, it's always been like that but these select lovely people have taken it upon themselves to push the envelope. As far as I am concerned, people who are excessively vulgar have no place in games due to the polarizing effect they have.

It's very similar to the chooo clan spam years ago. A lot of people did not like it and felt games were ruined because of it. Same thing is currently shaping up in regards to these pedophile people.

[rumox]

Case point - a player by the name of Cute consistently named himself 'I rape kids' and would send messages in detail how. I can't stress enough that, in my opinion, him doing it for the sole purpose of being offensive doesn't absolve him of this degeneracy and anti-social behavior IN a social game. This is a game we play for fun, not to be subjected to such dribble. We gave him a chance and asked him to stop and decided against any punishments. Shortly after, it's business as usual for him and he is back at it. Sure enough we decided to ban him because his intention is clearly just to grief. These people taking part in this are very well aware we do not want to see them doing it, yet they continue to do so clearly signifying their intention.

Clear em out!

[BananaCucho]

Heh, I had the feeling this question would come


The arcade has long been and most importantly consistently been the Far West when it comes to language and personal attacks. This led a great majority of the community to accepting that reality and to embracing it. If it were to be outruled, there would certainly be considerable anger in the community, and I believe a non-zero part of the playerbase would simply leave the game because of it.

On the other hand, FM has always had more regulations than arcade when it comes to that. More importantly, some years ago, the FM community completely changed and was made exclusively of new members who established a new, less toxic standard without even having a moderation team. The community then welcomed new and old members alike, and nearly all of them followed that new standard pretty happily. Unlike in the arcade, the majority would be angry if the aforementioned toxic behavior were tolerated. It's a matter of culture.
Plus, aside from all considerations of what the FM community considers as fun, the FM community has the concern of bringing new people from other communities in; those communities happen to have standards that come really, really, really much closer to the FM community's current standards than to the arcade community's.
This leads me to use the same argument about capitalism; it's just that the majority's culture is completely different.

Its only part of the culture because it has been allowed to be

5 years ago it was part of the culture of FM as well. Did you know Bruno? He would spam all sorts of terrible things in FM games and was permitted to do it for fucking ever

Somewhere along the way, someone said "this is not ok" and now we have FM rules disallowing that type of toxicity and the culture has changed

This is not a valid excuse to permit it in the arcade and disallow it on the forums

[BananaCucho]

@Marshmallow Marshall

Proof:

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post488536

Read any number of his posts, starting from there

This behavior was widely accepted and ignored. There was no repercussions for playing like that

It is hypocritical to disallow this behavior on the forums and allow it on the mod

It should be allowed in FM if its going to be allowed in the mod and vice versa

Saying "other communities happen to have standards" can directly apply to the mod as well. People play secret hitler on TTS every day, and that type of behavior isn't allowed there. I would however never invite someone from TTS to play the mod because of how much of a fucking embarrassment it is. And its not like its an abandoned game, it is still receiving continued development, not sure how much developers like @Frinckles care about bringing in more people to play the game but if I worked on it I sure would like its playerbase to grow.

But its such a toxic wasteland that people like myself dont see it worth it to play. You have people on this site who spend hours going over reports of gamethrowing, griefing, etc etc trying to make the game less terrible and more fun. But you draw lines in such fucking weird places

[Oberon]

If the intention is “strategy” then I can respect that.

But I think for most trolls, the intention is “piss people off for the lols”.
In which case it IS pathetic.
Is “pissing people off” really the best way to release stress and anger?
It speaks volumes about their character.

And worst still, if hurting other people is how they feel better, don’t you think there’ll be more stress relief if they could do it irl?
E.g. The bully who can beat wimps up, the abusive dad who can beat the helpless kid, the boss who can shout at his employees, etc etc.

The fact that they are so powerless irl and have to resort to online trolling to vent just shows how pathetic they are.

DISCLAIMER: Not advocating people to be assholes irl. Trying to illustrate (1) “hurting other people to feel good” is bad, (2) online trolls are so weak, they can’t even do that irl.

If I were them, I’d channel my energy into improving myself or my environment, instead of creating problems for other people.

Personally, I find it hilarious when people lose their shit over you saying the n word but not you using some equally racist shit about Asians or even Eastern Europeans. Kinda selective, get me? So I do my best to piss them off because people can be quite hypocritical and virtue signal in an arcade game.

Granted, I don’t agree with the people who name themselves ‘I rape kids IRL’, but I literally don’t think it should be against the rules to say it, nor should we allow people to policy lynch those with that name just on principle. We shouldn’t be policing names, lol...

[BananaCucho]

Personally, I find it hilarious when people lose their shit over you saying the n word but not you using some equally racist shit about Asians or even Eastern Europeans. Kinda selective, get me? So I do my best to piss them off because people can be quite hypocritical and virtue signal in an arcade game.

Granted, I don’t agree with the people who name themselves ‘I rape kids IRL’, but I literally don’t think it should be against the rules to say it, nor should we allow people to policy lynch those with that name just on principle. We shouldn’t be policing names, lol...

Personally, I find it hilarious when people lose their shit over you saying "idiot" and "moron"

Yet here we are.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Its only part of the culture because it has been allowed to be

5 years ago it was part of the culture of FM as well. Did you know Bruno? He would spam all sorts of terrible things in FM games and was permitted to do it for fucking ever

Somewhere along the way, someone said "this is not ok" and now we have FM rules disallowing that type of toxicity and the culture has changed

This is not a valid excuse to permit it in the arcade and disallow it on the forums

It is a valid reason. Let me quote myself:

More importantly, some years ago, the FM community completely changed and was made exclusively of new members who established a new, less toxic standard without even having a moderation team. The community then welcomed new and old members alike, and nearly all of them followed that new standard pretty happily. Unlike in the arcade, the majority would be angry if the aforementioned toxic behavior were tolerated. It's a matter of culture.

The culture change wasn't caused by someone in the moderation saying "this is not ok", since that would have required to have a moderation existing in the first place lmao. The culture change was caused by the fact that all players from the time you're talking about, like 2015, were not there anymore and were replaced by players who didn't want that toxicity. It wasn't a decision made by some authoritarian boss, it was literally a community choice. The culture changes because the community wants it and then the moderation officialises it with rules, not because someone in the moderation decides "that's our culture now" and the community follows: that would cause the community's death. The second scenario is exactly what I fear would happen with the mod if there was to be a brutal change in rules that does not follow the culture at all.

@Marshmallow Marshall

Proof:

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post488536

Read any number of his posts, starting from there

This behavior was widely accepted and ignored. There was no repercussions for playing like that

It is hypocritical to disallow this behavior on the forums and allow it on the mod

It should be allowed in FM if its going to be allowed in the mod and vice versa

Saying "other communities happen to have standards" can directly apply to the mod as well. People play secret hitler on TTS every day, and that type of behavior isn't allowed there. I would however never invite someone from TTS to play the mod because of how much of a fucking embarrassment it is. And its not like its an abandoned game, it is still receiving continued development, not sure how much developers like @Frinckles care about bringing in more people to play the game but if I worked on it I sure would like its playerbase to grow.

But its such a toxic wasteland that people like myself dont see it worth it to play. You have people on this site who spend hours going over reports of gamethrowing, griefing, etc etc trying to make the game less terrible and more fun. But you draw lines in such fucking weird places

Already addressed that: it was 5 years ago, and the community's culture completely changed; this change stemmed and was carried by a purely community-led movement, since moderation was literally non-existent.

Definetly not. We are talking about two very, very different communities playing two similar but not identical games with very different time-set standards. That is why the FM organization is independant from the Arcade organization.

This, I will concede. But then again, a lot of people who like the current climate would likely leave the game. Note that I'm not happier than you are about the toxicity in the arcade. It's one of the major reasons for which I do not play it anymore.

My Utopia is that the community comes to change its own culture by itself to avoid a massive exodus caused by a sudden change in rules while making the arcade community a better place. It's just really hard to do; the FM community only succeeded in its relatively quick change because literally 100 % of its members were new and had a new mentality at a specific point in its history.


If you don't believe me, try to find one player from the 2015 period who remained consistently active on the site from 2018 to now. You're gonna have a hard time :P.

[BananaCucho]

It is a valid reason. Let me quote myself:

More importantly, some years ago, the FM community completely changed and was made exclusively of new members who established a new, less toxic standard without even having a moderation team. The community then welcomed new and old members alike, and nearly all of them followed that new standard pretty happily. Unlike in the arcade, the majority would be angry if the aforementioned toxic behavior were tolerated. It's a matter of culture.

The culture change wasn't caused by someone in the moderation saying "this is not ok", since that would have required to have a moderation existing in the first place lmao. The culture change was caused by the fact that all players from the time you're talking about, like 2015, were not there anymore and were replaced by players who didn't want that toxicity. It wasn't a decision made by some authoritarian boss, it was literally a community choice. The culture changes because the community wants it and then the moderation officialises it with rules, not because someone in the moderation decides "that's our culture now" and the community follows: that would cause the community's death. The second scenario is exactly what I fear would happen with the mod if there was to be a brutal change in rules that does not follow the culture at all.



Already addressed that: it was 5 years ago, and the community's culture completely changed; this change stemmed and was carried by a purely community-led movement, since moderation was literally non-existent.

Definetly not. We are talking about two very, very different communities playing two similar but not identical games with very different time-set standards. That is why the FM organization is independant from the Arcade organization.

This, I will concede. But then again, a lot of people who like the current climate would likely leave the game. Note that I'm not happier than you are about the toxicity in the arcade. It's one of the major reasons for which I do not play it anymore.

My Utopia is that the community comes to change its own culture by itself to avoid a massive exodus caused by a sudden change in rules while making the arcade community a better place. It's just really hard to do; the FM community only succeeded in its relatively quick change because literally 100 % of its members were new and had a new mentality at a specific point in its history.


If you don't believe me, try to find one player from the 2015 period who remained consistently active on the site from 2018 to now. You're gonna have a hard time :P.

You're either full of shit, or delusional. The ruling in Magellan is an example of how you're full of it. You literally had 2-3 MODERATORS trying to push through a ruling that the community DID NOT WANT, as acknowledged by this post:

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post880179

You bring up the point that what the FM staff deemed as unacceptable, the COMMUNITY deemed as "soft issues"

Secondly - if the whole argument here is "its the wild west and the mod community is ok with it" - you know what else we see constantly in the mod? Leave trains. Gamethrows. Role quits. Why do we care to moderate these things, listen to the complaints of those that bother to make reports, but selectively ignore those that report over the top excessive language? Shouldn't we tell those that report these things "well, its what everyone does and has done for years, deal with it"?

[Auwt]

Except with a refusal to acknowledge or recognize one as a crime (deal with it, live around it, etc), it isn't fair to punish the 2nd reactionary crime (vigilante justice)

@Auwt this argument reminds me of that cop dude that gave up chasing Bain's men cause he was too excited about taking down Batman

Still taking the Mayor example that says horrible things, but keeps playing good

There will always be players in the mod that won't care about the vocabulary and just want to play the game.
For those kind of people (I believe is the majority), a player lynching this Mayor would look like a gamethrower, this "reactionary" gamethrow will be seen as a pure gamethrow.

In contrary to guys that want to have better quality games, they will try to "vigilante justice" (even though I'm not a massive fan of vigilante justice).
People that really care about vocabulary and so on, would say it shouldnt be seen as gamethrowing.

Therefore, giving justice to both is quite hard.

Then there is the question of what should be considered as "spamming horrendously awful shit".
As it's not a standard, and have various pov, like Ganelon proved it, for instance, it's quite difficult to make everyone happy.
You just have to take the n word as an example, some will says it's okay, some won't. I personally won't.

Subjectively, when I process reports, I always try my best to include anything related to racism/spam and so on, to use it to tip the scales, in case I'm wondering between two different punishments.

[BananaCucho]

Still taking the Mayor example that says horrible things, but keeps playing good

There will always be players in the mod that won't care about the vocabulary and just want to play the game.
For those kind of people (I believe is the majority), a player lynching this Mayor would look like a gamethrower, this "reactionary" gamethrow will be seen as a pure gamethrow.

In contrary to guys that want to have better quality games, they will try to "vigilante justice" (even though I'm not a massive fan of vigilante justice).
People that really care about vocabulary and so on, would say it shouldnt be seen as gamethrowing.

Therefore, giving justice to both is quite hard.

Then there is the question of what should be considered as "spamming horrendously awful shit".
As it's not a standard, and have various pov, like Ganelon proved it, for instance, it's quite difficult to make everyone happy.
You just have to take the n word as an example, some will says it's okay, some won't. I personally won't.

Subjectively, when I process reports, I always try my best to include anything related to racism/spam and so on, to use it to tip the scales, in case I'm wondering between two different punishments.

Literally every online community sets a line, has a standard, has a terms of service, etc. A line can be drawn. This isn't something that is allowed in other online social deduction games. And those communities adapt and survive if the game is good.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

You're either full of shit, or delusional. The ruling in Magellan is an example of how you're full of it. You literally had 2-3 MODERATORS trying to push through a ruling that the community DID NOT WANT, as acknowledged by this post:

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post880179

You bring up the point that what the FM staff deemed as unacceptable, the COMMUNITY deemed as "soft issues"

Secondly - if the whole argument here is "its the wild west and the mod community is ok with it" - you know what else we see constantly in the mod? Leave trains. Gamethrows. Role quits. Why do we care to moderate these things, listen to the complaints of those that bother to make reports, but selectively ignore those that report over the top excessive language? Shouldn't we tell those that report these things "well, its what everyone does and has done for years, deal with it"?

Indeed; that's specifically why the first judgement was overturned in Magellan, and the staff remember this and still remembers it when making post-Magellan judgements. There is no incoherence here; in fact, you're actually proving my point by bringing Magellan up lol.

~~

1: because the game is unplayable if everyone gamethrows
2 (most important point imo): because while people do it, a strong majority of the playerbase hates it when it happens to them (it's not because you like hitting on others that you like being hit on by others), which once again comes down to the community's culture
3: I said I believed seriously over the top excessive langauge should be punishable and punished, just not someone saying nigger

[Voss]

I don't understand why people get afraid of losing their ability to rile people up when we have people complaining on our forums and discord about the horrendous shit that people are typing on the mod.

Calling people names, idiot, moron, fucktard, n-word, are all various degrees of not okay, but what I have posited, and will posit again, is that the line is CLEAR between that stuff and role playing the rape of children. If you're a decent human being on this site, (and everyone is), I have the utmost confidence that you can see when things are clearly across this line.

So please stop saying that because you want to call someone stupid in a game, means that the rest of us have to tolerate horrendous shit.

[whitechapel]

Maybe stop being such a libcuck faggot. Grow the fuck up, its still the internet and hopefully will always be censorship free. People who get offended by ANYTHING need to re-evaluate their life or maybe put a bullet in their parents heads for raising them wrong.

[MartinGG99]

Maybe stop being such a libcuck faggot. Grow the fuck up, its still the internet and hopefully will always be censorship free. People who get offended by ANYTHING need to re-evaluate their life or maybe put a bullet in their parents heads for raising them wrong.

Hey, are you getting offended just because other people are being offended?



Jokes aside, I'm not sure what you're expecting to achieve with that post. Arguments / reasons generally don't sound convincing when a large part of it is ad hominem, regardless if true or not.

Besides, humans are social creatures. To expect us not to react to things that we disagree with is to deny that we are social beings.

[rumox]

Your perception of the internet being censorship free is simply wrong lol. Choose a website, go there and start talking about how you want to rape kids and go into detail how you will do it. See how long you last and tell me the internet is censorship free.

[BananaCucho]

Indeed; that's specifically why the first judgement was overturned in Magellan, and the staff remember this and still remembers it when making post-Magellan judgements. There is no incoherence here; in fact, you're actually proving my point by bringing Magellan up lol.

~~

1: because the game is unplayable if everyone gamethrows
2 (most important point imo): because while people do it, a strong majority of the playerbase hates it when it happens to them (it's not because you like hitting on others that you like being hit on by others), which once again comes down to the community's culture
3: I said I believed seriously over the top excessive langauge should be punishable and punished, just not someone saying nigger

1. The game is unplayable as is, its a toxic unfun shithole that I would never go back to or introduce to others. You yourself said "It's one of the major reasons for which I do not play it anymore." Literally unplayable.

2. Do you have statistics on what percentage of the playerbase hates rage quits vs what percentage of the playerbase hates the toxicity? What about the number of people that have quit playing the game simply because of its "wild west nature"? I've seen a LOT of reports on this site regarding the foul nature of the game, and the usual standard response is "we have no control over that, report it to Blizzard". For years. This is the first time I've seen "its the culture" as an argument. And its the culture because ANYONE that has brought up concerns is ignored

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post871108

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post474977

3. ...seriously?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

1. The game is unplayable as is, its a toxic unfun shithole that I would never go back to or introduce to others. You yourself said "It's one of the major reasons for which I do not play it anymore." Literally unplayable.

2. Do you have statistics on what percentage of the playerbase hates rage quits vs what percentage of the playerbase hates the toxicity? What about the number of people that have quit playing the game simply because of its "wild west nature"? I've seen a LOT of reports on this site regarding the foul nature of the game, and the usual standard response is "we have no control over that, report it to Blizzard". For years. This is the first time I've seen "its the culture" as an argument. And its the culture because ANYONE that has brought up concerns is ignored

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post871108

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post474977

3. ...seriously?

1 and 2: I definetly agree that the situation is bad and that it can make people leave. I just doubt the gain/loss balance in terms of players is worth it. As I said, my Utopia is to change the community from the inside. I've tried to do that in the past, but gave up because there was way too much unpleasant resistance. That being said, it doesn't make the game unplayable in the way gamethrowing does: toxicity makes the game unfun, gamethrowing also makes it completely impossible to play correctly.

3: yes lol. Someone spamming racist slurs consistently in-game should be bannable imo (and I believe it is, under griefing for spam). Same should go for pedo stuff. But I really don't think the level of enforcement we have in FM can be applied to the arcade.

Also, just so that it's clear, I have zero jurisdiction over arcade, so I'm talking as a normal member on that point.