Is it unfair to assert that I had significant pull in the town at the time? The only reason I was lynched that day was because mechanically I needed to be after the red check on me and two cc's. Frankly I was jaded of dealing with the game anyway.
But one thing you're overlooking is that one of my Town-reads at the time was Wilibird, who had just told me he was also a neutral during our nightchat. So I'm not sure why you can't see this revelation (three or four days after winning) prompting you to be a potential lynch from my perspective.
(๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶
Besides, fyi
Jan said in dead chat that they would consider playing another game if they liked the theme but that this game just wasn't for them
Lois was Frog. And quit because. Well its Frog
Are there another 2 players that I don't know of that were driven away by arrogance?
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Not that I paid attention to the full game, as a spectator, but I did read that post by quinne. It did rub me the same way as it did to Stealthbomber16. It was a level of arrogance that was disturbing.
I think if they said "I'll CONSIDER not voting you", then that would've been much more acceptable to me tbh. But saying "lynch" as if you controlled who gets lynched and who doesn't? Thats a whole other level of arrogance.
A.K.A "That One Idiot"
Get some thicker skin guys, lol
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Announcement
S-FM Marlwyn Janson (Frinckles) gets a warning for personal attacks. Although he did not attack people severely, the spread-out insults did not help maintaining a healthy, non-toxic climate, and could offend some players. Please refrain from doing this in the future. This works for everyone, by the way.
The original S-FM Lois Francklyn (Frog) gets an infraction of undefined length, worth 7 points, that will be manually removed once he plays 3 games without committing offenses. In the event he would commit offenses during those 3 games, he would get more infraction points, which would result in a site ban of length determined by the offense's gravity. Rage-quitting publicly is forbidden for a reason: doing so damages the game's integrity and causes inevitable angle-shooting. This punishment takes the fact that he had also left his last game on SC2 Mafia into account. Some of the FM staff feel like Frog's play was straddling the border between correct aggressive play and toxic play. It's best for everyone if this line isn't toed because it makes other decisions possibly subjective, as well as takes away from the collective fun in the game.
S-FM Marck Wilbird (BananaCucho) is banned from the next two FM games, namely Spirits II and Mafia Wars, for personally attacking both the players and the host. Calling people "idiots", "morons", etc. repeatedly falls under the description of punishable personal attacks written in the FM Rules (In-game Rules, rule #9). Threatening to ridicule someone after the game is falling into the same category. Personally insulting the host because of mistakes he made also is unacceptable for the same reasons. The recent rage-quit from BananaCucho in the last Ladder game, Black Flag Nightless, has been taken into account when this punishment was decided. Note that BananaCucho is completely innocent of having made Lois Francklyn quit, and that although his personal attacks against Jan Korvin were considered in the global picture of toxicity related to personal attacks, he did not make him leave the game in the end. Therefore, the accusations of having caused those two players to quit were wrong and were obviously not taken into account for the punishment, which would have been more severe if those accusations were true.
Also note that Rotholfo Goncales's mild trolling did not justify the repeated personal insults from Marck Wilbird against him.
Ganelon has been talked to about his mistakes in handling discipline in his game as a host and as FM staff, such as discussing who would be infracted while the game was still ongoing and without prior discussion with the rest of the staff. The FM staff team has made sure that he understood them and that he will not repeat them; although we don't expect it to happen, in the event he would, depending on the magnitude of those actions, disciplinary actions and loss of staff position would occur. Note that although BananaCucho did not make any player directly leave the game in the end, it has been determined by looking at both public posts in the thread and private exchanges between the host and the players that until the post-game chat opened, Ganelon had every reason to believe S-FM Jan Korvin had left the game directly because of BananaCucho's persistent personal attacks.
To everyone: Remember to remain civil in games. Mafia is a game of debate, disagreement, and lies; it is therefore expected that heated discussions will be present. That being said, directly attacking a player severely or repeatedly makes games unfun. As for rage-quitting, remember that when someone publicly states that they are leaving the game because they're angry, it taints the entirety of the information about them. It causes every single town player in the game to have their reads tainted by information that does not actually pertain to the game; this is angle-shooting, and nobody but the rage-quitter can be blamed for it. The rules are here for a reason. Respect them. If you really need to leave a game, deal with it privately with the Host. Thank you, and have fun in your next games.
Note that only events directly related to S-FM Magellan were taken into account when making this verdict.
Last edited by AIVION; July 30th, 2020 at 05:58 AM.
Everybody is equally weak on the inside, just that some present their ruins as new castles and become kings –
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.
If your dear heart is wounded, my wild heart bleeds with yours.
A few personal notes from myself. I want to apologize for causing a drama in deadchat and for publicly discussing infractions without first talking to the rest of the staff. While as a player or host there is nothing necessarily wrong with this, as staff you are held to a higher standard and are expected to keep the peace, and most importantly, not to contribute to shitfest.
As host, note that, just as the above announcement states, my initial statement that BananaCucho caused Lois to leave was wrong. In fact, Lois quit in response to one of deathworlds’ comments. Note that, in my personal view - as well as in the staffs opinion - deathworlds cannot be held accountable for Lois leaving the game. We feel that Lois overreacted. The statement about Jan is a bit tricky because, while at the time it seemed - due to in-game as well as personal messages - made by Jan that Banana had triggered the leave, this does not seem to be the case, at a second glance.
Have a good day.
Ganelon
Last edited by ; July 30th, 2020 at 06:17 AM.
"Threatening to ridicule someone after the game" - that player and I are good friends, and he isn't even mad about those posts
"Personally insulting the host because of mistakes he made" - as if I was the only player who did this
Calling a player that was egging me on "moron" and "idiot" is unacceptable, but that player telling me that I should SEEK PROFESSIONAL MENTAL HELP FOR MY ANGER ISSUES is not toxic at all, it's "mild trolling"
"personal attacks against Jan Korvin" - citation needed
Congrats @Ganelon, you get what you wish out of this. You get to publicly apologize for slandering me (no private apology has been made btw, even though I reached out to Ganelon over a week ago asking him if he'd like to bury the hatchet), kicking off an investigation into toxicity in a game where I get punished for different things than what you slandered me for and wanted to infract me for. One thing of which YOU AGREED that the player deserved (the attacks against Rotholo). And you get a "warning" and get to continue on your way, getting players that you don't like banned from FM games while yourself using your position to ridicule setups instead of reviewing them and saying what you want without punishment.
Because you're friends with the person who did the investigation, and I am not, I guess. So bravo.
Last edited by BananaCucho; July 30th, 2020 at 07:15 AM.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Make sure you guys update the FM games rules. Cite these posts as "acceptable mild trolling, not personal attacks"
You can cite these posts below as unacceptable "personal attacks against Jan Korvin were considered in the global picture of toxicity related to personal attacks". You know, so people are clear what the fuck you guys want out of games. No citation was given in the punishment post, so may as well assume these are the posts you are talking about as far as contributing to global toxicity around when Jan quit.
That or be upfront, "Don't make an enemy out of a staff member or their friend will punish you"
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
If it matters banana, if any member of the staff does what mag did again, there'll be more serious repercussions than "a warning". No one expects it to happen again as the fm staff took it as a learning experience.
I know this doesn't address all your qualms, but hopefully it addresses that one fine point.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
It really doesn't. I get slandered over something, get told that I'm going to be punished over something - then get CLEARED of that, which was the whole reason that the 10 day review took place - and I STILL get punished
Like really. What the fuck.
Note that only events directly related to S-FM Magellan were taken into account when making this verdict.The recent rage-quit from BananaCucho in the last Ladder game, Black Flag Nightless, has been taken into account when this punishment was decided.What the actual fuck.Note that BananaCucho is completely innocent of having made Lois Francklyn quit, and that although his personal attacks against Jan Korvin were considered in the global picture of toxicity related to personal attacks, he did not make him leave the game in the end. Therefore, the accusations of having caused those two players to quit were wrong and were obviously not taken into account for the punishment, which would have been more severe if those accusations were true.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Literally future games on sc2baby:
Originally Posted by BananaCuchoPost game: "BananaCucho has been banned for 5 FM games for name calling, persistent personal attacks, and contributing to a general toxic environment. Their recent bans from 2 previous games were taken into account when determining this ban.Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Note that only events directly related to this game were taken into account when determining this ban"
Last edited by BananaCucho; July 30th, 2020 at 11:15 AM.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
The new standard at sc2baby
Gamebot the whole thing! Can't pressure players, can't bring emotion into it. Can't get frustrated yourself when players completely ignore things you say
Meanwhile egging people on, trying to get a rise/reaction out of them is completely acceptable. It'll be written off as "mild trolling"
Bienvenidos! We hope you enjoy your stay!
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
I don't know what I just read except this case seems to get goofier by the minute.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
Meanwhile I sent a lengthy defense to @Marshmallow Marshall over a week ago. Which seems to have worked clearing me of the slanderous charges that were investigated in the first place
Yet still punished
Last edited by BananaCucho; July 30th, 2020 at 12:47 PM.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?
It's almost like you expect my feelings to be hurt. What happens in the game stays in the game @BananaCucho
You're fine Cucho even though you do appear to be in an interesting situation right now.
Yeah obviously I know that you're not made of glass, my post was heavily dripping in sarcasm
Quite literally there are only 2 people that have suggested my toxicity this game was punishable. One is the host. The other is the host's friend. Literally nobody else seems to care.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Look guys, I compiled the posts surrounding Rotholo. And it didn't take me 10 days to compile nothing
Get ready for a wild ride
Spoiler : Rotholo :
At this point, after a heated exchange with Rotholo where I call him out for egging me on, I start to ignore him
@Ganelon agreed with me that Rotholo was egging me on here, here is the proof:
egg.PNG
Now look at what follows, remember I'm ignoring this player at this point. I reference them, but I refuse to engage them directly any further:
Spoiler : Rotholo2 :
Banana's conclusion:
Why is it punishable to call someone "moron" and "idiot" when they:
A) Acted dumb on purpose
B) Acted like they were figuring things out and that the rest of us hadn't figured them out yet
C) After getting a rise/reaction that they were obviously looking for with their trolling, continue to bait and try to get more rises and more reactions
Why is it not punishable to try to bait emotional responses out of someone, but it is punishable when you fall for the bait? How is one of these actions toxic, and the other not?
Why is staff pushing forward a punishment on this basis anyway? They have effectively moved the goalposts after it came to light that Ganelon's initial concerns with me were actually baseless
Unless someone answers the obvious answer is: I was always going to be punished for this game no matter what. Someone is appeasing Ganelon by pushing this punishment through
Which is not right.
Edit: btw, I do not remember calling other players moron and idiot. If I did, please point it out.
Last edited by BananaCucho; July 30th, 2020 at 02:18 PM.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Lmfao
This isn't where i parked my car.....
@AIVION
please cite examples where @BananaCucho called players other than @Varcron idiots.
Varcron was Jiles. Did I call him an idiot?
Nobody knows who Rotholo was
Edit: Just skimmed my posts day 1, this was my worst offense against Varcron:
Calling him a one trick pony
I did say "Go fuck yourself" with a smiley face, immediately followed by "Jk you're alright". Which was obviously in jest with no malice. So there's that I guess
Last edited by BananaCucho; July 30th, 2020 at 07:24 PM.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Feels like there are way more issues in play here than banana calling someone names. We've got 3 community members coming out and saying what Frinckles did was straddling toxic, and nobody coming out and saying what Banana did was toxic.
I want more reasoning coming in as to what spurred the decision to blacklist banana for 2 games. I think that as a community we deserve more reasoning here because banana has brought up multiple completely valid points that no member of the FM staff team have addressed.
I totally understand Banana's POV in this scenario, it's universally agreed that D1 his behavior was fine and D2 his behavior was spurred by another player egging him on. What caused this decision?
I mean my POV is that Lois kicked off the mildly toxic atmosphere, and players were stressed by the flipless no night kill setup, IN ADDITION to host error and general confusion that several players ran into.
- Threatening a player to harass them post-game isn't ok and it should not be a part of any game: it's a direct attack on the person, going systematically through the play. Plus, the game was anonymous, so you couldn't know he was your friend; he could have been anyone, which makes your point moot.
- Some players criticized the host and myself for the setup, and that is perfectly acceptable (and deserved, mistakes were made). However, it is not true that you have only criticized the host respectfully: personal insults is where we draw the line, and you have crossed that line.
- There's a significant difference between calling someone an idiot and a moron repeatedly in a streak of posts and telling someone they have anger issues and that they "probably talk to someone about that". The former attacks the person directly (and repeatedly). The latter, although it isn't perfect, mostly attacks your behavior. Although the event alone would probably not warrant a ban (but a warning), it strongly contributes to the global picture of toxicity we have seen during the game, and that contributes to the punishment. Note that what Ganelon said during the game about Rotholfo was said without prior discussion with FM staff; it was judged by the team with unbiased eyes afterwards and was seen as reprehensible.
Some posts showing Wilbird-Rotholfo :
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...152#post874152
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...154#post874154
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...169#post874169
The posts above may interest @Stealthbomber16 and others who asked for quotes of insults against someone who wasn't Varcron, as well as these:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872748
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872760
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872774
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post872915
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post873085
That's a lot of "twat-Nick".
- Posts about Jan-Wilbird are here.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...059#post876059
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post876062
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...079#post876079
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...916#post875916
Post-game ridicule, "stop making us waste our time", etc. Note that this is post-disguise.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...502#post874502
Jan (original player, not disguiser) clearly and directly saying that the toxicity is making him leave. Note that he specifically says that "this is his last post in this FM".
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...508#post874508
Banana replies to that post saying "Dont blame others when you're failing to grasp simple things, and dont rage quit when its explained to you over and over and you still refuse to even try to understand", which is obviously going to offend Jan here; there is no other possible result. This makes this small post streak particularly damning, because it shows that Banana either intended to offend or, at the very least, did not care about offending someone.
It is not a single piece of the game, but rather the sum of personal attacks from Banana at different people during the game despite the host's warnings that was deemed ban-worthy.
- About Ganelon, it would seem something has been unclear in the message: further mistakes like these will not be tolerated, and will be met with demotion and disciplinary actions. Staff members, especially when new like Ganelon, can make mistakes. They are humans, after all, and that is why he gets a chance. What he got is not a simple slap on the wrist: if he were to repeat those mistakes or worse, there would be much harsher judgement than internal talks and a formal warning. We do not expect him to commit those mistakes again, which is why he remains part of staff; if, after discussion with him, it were deemed likely that he would reoffend, he would have been fired.
- About the prevention of bias, note that Ganelon did not have his word to say in the final verdict. We also invited both AIVION, who was completely uninvolved in all of the judged events, and Voss, an experienced and also completely uninvolved in all of the judged events, to participate in the discussions and more specifically to voice any concerns they may have about the way the team was judging things.
By the way, I think this is important to address because there seems to be a misunderstanding on that matter too. Rotholfo said something against people's play (it was wrong, but it wasn't offensive). Wilbird then proceeded to call him a moron, an idiot, an idiot again, and an idiot again. The line is drawn at personal attacks. Rotholfo did not bait those attacks in the beginning in any way or form; therefore, the one who started the toxic exchanges between Wilbird and Rotholfo is not Rotholfo, but Wilbird. Proof in the first spoiler in Banana's post.
Also note that when someone is wrong, it doesn't grant other players the right to call them morons. When you think someone is wrong, you can say you think he's wrong and why. You don't have to scream at them saying they're dumb, and you shouldn't do it.
Right, so according to this, you believe that after my exchange with Rotholo where he continued to bait me with personal attacks of his own (and yes, telling someone they have anger issues and should seek professional help over and over IS a very personal attack) over and over in retaliation to me calling him "moron" and "idiot", he's completely off the hook for that
Yet according to your previous post I'm on the hook for going after Ganelon in a private DM off-site in retaliation for spending 2 weeks slandering me in dead chat
Makes logical sense
Also funny how this site is so inconsistent when it comes to off site messages. I insult Slaol in skype? 2 week ban. Duckk threatens to kill my kids in a private skype message? No punishment until he lashes out on the forum
No, I am not making it up. PROOF:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post627669
But now when I insult a staff member (surprise surprise) thats taken into account for my punishment. Go figure.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
I think you have still not answered the “why am I being treated differently than others” part of banana’s appeal. I can’t think of a game, on FM or on the mod where someone hasn’t insulted someone else for their intelligence sadly (and I’m guilty)
Now there are plenty of valid reasons here:
As the community has recently grown, and the fm staff has grown, bad behavior is being taken more seriously than before, which is a good thing imo
Banana has a serious history (as he mentioned) on the site going back years with toxicity issues.
However this stuff wasn’t mentioned. I do think FM could steal from arcade and add more to the reports process.
First of all, only staff who weren’t involved in the game should really be involved in deciding the punishment IMO. Because you can’t be unbiased otherwise.
Secondly, in the review there should be a summary similar to what you get in arcade. Like “player name, summary of what they did, history of prior punishments in fm, recommended punishment”. I mean use a similar template. I acknowledge it’s hard to quote people out of 5000 posts. But it’s similar in arcade in that you can’t quote everything. But you can give a simple summary along the lines of d1: did blah d2: did blah blah, etc. At least that looks better than a generalized summary of the whole game, and shows the reviewer actually looked day by day.
And thirdly, the reports system needs to be expanded on. You want to save yourselves some pain by only reviewing stuff that gets reported. The current system implies the mods will just review whatever they feel like reviewing. Imo you want to just review stuff that was reported by the players or host, and those reports should go into the FM reports forum and not to PMs. The whole “let’s all privately discuss what we want and then post a verdict” thing is not transparent enough.
Fourthly, it might be good to have a punishment table similar to arcade. The punishments right now are too random. There should be some objectivity to it.
I post this as a shit that ragequit from my retirement FM, and got a simple warning for it, and not as an admin.
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Funny how all those twat posts were also post replace out. Unlike many other players (MM included) I did not go toe to toe with Frog like at all before he replaced out
Notice how deathworlds says twat on at least 2 different occassions to at least 2 different players
Where is deathworlds ban? (No offense @deathworlds Im just tryna defend myself here)
All the stuff directed at @Renegade wasting time is really funny tbh. Like if I can't post that in FM. Seriously. You want me to be a robot?
Lots of players posted stuff in caps, or in anger at each other of similar nature. Where are their bans?
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Thank you for this post. I can agree with the section about Jan Korvin only, but I do disagree with the other points. My opinion is entirely moot though, due to the message given earlier, namely
I'm very curious as to the level of communication happening behind the scenes here. Two of the reasons you mention here were completely disregarded from the official message given by the FM staff team literally less than 24 hours ago. Ganelon, another member of the staff team, also disregards the posts against Rotholfo (we still have no idea who this person is!), giving us three members on the FM staff team with completely different messages?!
I'm sorry but what the hell is happening here? Where is the unified decision coming from? You all completely agree on the same punishment but you have no consensus as to WHY this is happening.
Stealth, I do value your opinion
You say that you agree with the point about Jan only. Do you agree that the punishment is just for that? Or do you think I should have received a warning like Frinckles did?
The punishment is out of left field. I'd rather the infraction tbh, as the infraction doesn't prevent me from playing.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho