S-FM 303: Summer 2020 (Newbie Game)

**Dallarian** · June 26th, 2020, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Auwt

Dallarian what do you think about a vote on Martin (just asking).

He rushed his question too quickly. That could be indeed scum attempt to gather information. I had to protect him because it was right thing to do, as I have already mentioned long time ago.
I don't trust him, but if Zeduk is Mafia, then Martin is townie.
I would need more arguments than mentioned to vote Martin, however I am pretty sure there was something mentioned earlier, what was right point against Martin.
But right now Zeduk is more Mafia than Martin is.

I go, see you later.

**bakermir** · June 26th, 2020, 05:28 AM

Hey btw, I will be gone soon till late.

I am not sure if I should leave a vote on someone.

So far we got;

Helltanis / Grakylan

I think their participation was sketchy. With votes swinging around, no breadcrumbs, little input.
They can't be on same team. Both are scumread to most of us. Voting one of them today would be the ideal start for town. Grakylan isn't here right now so I also don't want to use this to his disadvantage.

Dallarian / Martin / Zedus

I don't get good vibes from the Dallarian/Martin link. Martin's been very sketchy with some stuff but also refused to vote up Zedus. At the same time Zedus is living on "what if" and still pushing Martin. It feels like lynching someone from these 3 could either end up glorious or really shitty.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Zedus

Lol, it's easy

Next post:

The funny thing that's then I pointed on that, Martins said

And blah-blah-blah...

I don't realy want to read the whole 20 pages again, but you following him most part of the game for no reason.

Well, Dallarian protecting him so hard, so he is more suspicious for me then even Martin, lol.

I voted Grak on post 153, Martino post about Grakylan that you quoted after was post 281. ??

ANd you don't find Grak's behavior suspicious at all? I guess any time two people come to the same conclusion they are sheep.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Zedus

I am under stress of this game, not my role. Autistic trains, random votes, voting d1 for no reason, incompetent players, trying to lead the town... This is not what I expected from the forum mafia, where there is a lot of time for thought. Players posting faster then they thinking... Well, maybe the first problem is that's there is a lot of new players, the second problem is most of them can't accept that.

You are creating 50% of the problems and your own stress.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 06:42 AM

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ash Lael

Alright, so I feel like Helltanis is scummier than Grak and Zedus is scummier than Martin at the moment. So I’d be open to lynching any of those four in any order but would prefer to start with Zedus or Helltanis. For thread health and less toxicity, Zedus is maybe the best choice for day 1.

Helltanis has my vote.

-vote Helltanis

You pointed out the strange behavior around his Grak vote. I think Zedus is high off his own fumes. I'm still not convinced Grak is town.

Reads:
Town
Ash
Auwt

Town Leaning
Dallarian
Martin

Indeterminant
Bakemir
Zedus

Scum Leaning
Helltanis
Grakylan

The thing I am not sure about is that the team is Helltanis/Grakylan. I don't think that is the case actually.

**Zedus** · June 26th, 2020, 07:31 AM

Well, time to a lot of answers.

After some time of rest from this long run, I trying to use one suggestion as basis.
What if Martin is town, and me and Martin are both stupid enougth to make this game some kind of "duel" between us (lol, after 4 hours of rest whole topic realy looks like this!). And we shadowed real evils this way. They didn't care who to lynch and they are happy if one of us lynched and another one will be automaticaly susp for next day.

Originally Posted by Auwt

Anyway whoever protect Martin this night isnt that smart. Martin is being scumread by almost half the people in here. Scum would obviously focus on someone not being voted/suspected/whatever you could think. If they do kill Martin, honestly it would relieve the game a lot cause all the people scumreading him would have to update their reads. No point on protecting nor killing Martin at night.

Imagine mafia killing me or Martin with the same logic?

Originally Posted by Auwt

I would like to know, Zedus how willing are you to vote Bakermir, and same question goes for Bakermir, how willing are you to vote Zedus?

My point of view has not changed. We DO NOT NEED d1 lynch. Even Bakermir or Martin or someone else. All I see about Bakemir is that he is attentive player, much more attentive then the most of others. He remember what he said, what others did, he can use logic. If he is townie, he will be good to draw conclusions for town advantage. If he is evil, he is realy dangerous. But I have nothing to point on him as good or evil. Why should I vote him? Only "because I can"? No, thanks.

Originally Posted by Auwt

Explain more please, and also if you have to put someone as scum (except Martin), who would it be?

Later. Need to read more.

Originally Posted by Auwt

What? explanation please?

You realy need explanation? There is a quote in my post, where Martin with his "great" logic called me and Grakyln the same team. Grakyln asked "why shouldn't he vote me" and I answered "we are the same team, lol" with that quote. According with this inconsistent "logic" Bakermir is my team too, lol. Maybe someone else? I probably have the great team here

Originally Posted by Auwt

When I proposed the Bakermir/Zedus team, I wasnt expecting that comming. We clarified that between Zedus/Bakermir (and maybe Martin) there could be only one scum.

Brilliant example of that "great" logic. Only point you have to team us up is that we voted Martin at some time. Same as Grakyln did, lol. So everyone voted Martin once is evil and team by your "logic". 25 pages of topic, but this is the only thing you take from it?

But you, Auwt, looks like good for me from now. Main reason: you trying to remove focus from this stupid duel and look around. Same way as Ash Lael continue to push this line:

Originally Posted by Ash Lael

So... you don’t have an opinion on whether Zedus or Martin are scum? The pros and cons of those questions have been discussed extensively, I’m sure that you should be able to develop some sort of opinion on them.

Originally Posted by Ash Lael

Alright, so I feel like Helltanis is scummier than Grak and Zedus is scummier than Martin at the moment.

And so on.

Well, if you need full list, that is it:

Good guys:
Auwt. His post (and some time of rest) realy make me look around. He playing for town advantage. Better let him lead this town.

Renegade. Kinda puppet player from the start, passive following Martin for some reasons. But looks like he is awakening now. I see no evil intentions from him, olny inattention.

Null guys:
Bakemir. Can be both mafia and town, the only confirmed thing is that he is smart and attentive.

Dallarian. Overprotecting Martin for no reason, but he is looking around, now I see. That can be both mafia or town strat.

Martin. Yes, most suspicious person for me now here. After re-reading whole topic with a fresh mind he looks like just selfish player, who longs for attention and wants to lead the town, but incompetent for this. Still can be evil, but this "duel" makes me think we helping real evils with him.

Ash Lael. "Zedus or Martin?" "Martin or Zedus?" "I think better vote Zedus then Martin". Hey, look around maybe?

Susp guys:
Grakylan. Check, how many times he changed his vote for 25 pages. Looks like he will be happy to lynch just some random target, that makes him suspicious.

Helltanis. Foggy thoughts, suspicious post editing (well, he is not only one who edits post, I did that to with adding a bit more text and others did that, but he is only one who removed vote, not -unvote), and non-game related issues. Shady person.

Also I

-unvote

from this point. He must not lead the town, it will be disaster. But there is less reasons for me to lynch him after re-read.

**Auwt** · June 26th, 2020, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dallarian

Helltanis “syndrome of headless chicken, townie running from vote to vote without idea what’s going on”, but he seems to genuinly have no idea what’s going on.
I need to reread Grakylan. He is still suspicious for me. Could be “syndrome of headless chicken, townie running from vote to vote without idea what’s going on”.

I believe I have written enough about Zedus already. Highly likely to be Mafia member.
I suspect Zedus to be in team with Helltanis.

Another possibility would be Auwt with Martin. They cooperate pretty well, don’t they?

You can thank Gyrlander for the expression "syndrome of headless chicken"

Helltanis is kinda lost, but made good progress recently. Even though his edited post with a vote make him looks susp, I still do not know what to think of him.
If we lynch Grakylan and then flips town, we would have made any progress because he would be still afk even alive.
Lynching Grakylan right now wouldnt lead anywhere. You would kill a citizen, and all our hope would be into some possible invest/power luck/role.

Lets ask this then : Zedus any thought on Helltanis? / Would you be ready to vote him?

I do not like how Martin's ISO changed to be like mine to be honest. There is a world where he could be.
I cant talk about myself so x_x ... Btw Dallarian its funny how you are using Auwt/Martin team comp, but you were the one defending him? uh?

Originally Posted by bakermir

I wouldn't gamble on Zedus. But if you find him too much toxic then I won't stop any of you.

So if we only need 1 more vote to get Zedus, you wouldnt vote him, right?

Originally Posted by bakermir

Hey btw, I will be gone soon till late.

I am not sure if I should leave a vote on someone.

So far we got;

Helltanis / Grakylan

I think their participation was sketchy. With votes swinging around, no breadcrumbs, little input.
They can't be on same team. Both are scumread to most of us. Voting one of them today would be the ideal start for town. Grakylan isn't here right now so I also don't want to use this to his disadvantage.

Dallarian / Martin / Zedus

I don't get good vibes from the Dallarian/Martin link. Martin's been very sketchy with some stuff but also refused to vote up Zedus. At the same time Zedus is living on "what if" and still pushing Martin. It feels like lynching someone from these 3 could either end up glorious or really shitty.

I would say going on Helltanis/Grakylan is what you call a "gamble" because we dont know much from them.

Originally Posted by Renegade

Helltanis has my vote.

-vote Helltanis

You pointed out the strange behavior around his Grak vote. I think Zedus is high off his own fumes. I'm still not convinced Grak is town.

Reads:
Town
Ash
Auwt

Town Leaning
Dallarian
Martin

Indeterminant
Bakemir
Zedus

Scum Leaning
Helltanis
Grakylan

The thing I am not sure about is that the team is Helltanis/Grakylan. I don't think that is the case actually.

I do not think either. If those were the two scums, they would be that low active TOGETHER.

**Zedus** · June 26th, 2020, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Auwt

Lets ask this then : Zedus any thought on Helltanis? / Would you be ready to vote him?

Look above, dude

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zedus

Look above, dude

It is likely you were both typing your posts at the same time....

**Auwt** · June 26th, 2020, 07:44 AM

By the way now that I'm thinking of it,
In case no mafia killing, Mafia's role CAN only kill if they sacrifice their role use. (they have a choice to make then)
Just wanted to point out so everybody know.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Important note:
It would appear these ISO's dont update with time, as they're thread (advanced) search results. For example, I was looking at Auwt's and noticed his recent post now doesn't show up in the ISO.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 08:12 AM

Okay, never mind. They don't seem to be working at all once you try to load them after a new post is made.

This is annoying. >.<.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 08:22 AM

@SuperJack

What is the simplest way for us to ISO other players? In another game I played someone was able to create links for each player similar to what Marino was trying.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Okay, never mind. They don't seem to be working at all once you try to load them after a new post is made.

This is annoying. >.<.

Got two ISO's done so far. 6 more to go. I plan to release them in a post where each ISO is viewable via a Spoiler button, so it doesn't take up a whole lot of space and everyone can just see what they want to see.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Got two ISO's done so far. 6 more to go. I plan to release them in a post where each ISO is viewable via a Spoiler button, so it doesn't take up a whole lot of space and everyone can just see what they want to see.

Before you do that let's see if SJ has a response. In the game Third Line Butterfly someone made links that did work and update and they were put in the initial post.

Not saying you shouldn't do that, just that there may be a better solution once we hear from SJ.

**Dallarian** · June 26th, 2020, 09:02 AM

@Zedus
One, even most uwu post is not going to change my opinion about you right now.
But atleast you stopped playing like Jester. That’s a nice change.

How do you now, after your strategy change, consider things like:

Calling any lynch D1 to be random lynch, and manipulating to make Martin appear to want random lynch?
What is your answer to #484?

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Renegade

Before you do that let's see if SJ has a response. In the game Third Line Butterfly someone made links that did work and update and they were put in the initial post.

Not saying you shouldn't do that, just that there may be a better solution once we hear from SJ.

Oh I mean as in Im just re-doing the searches I used to create the ISO's. Im currently analyzing everyone's posting in isolation. So far I've gotten Auwt and Ash Lael's done.

**Dallarian** · June 26th, 2020, 09:11 AM

Auwt, you have observed I am being aggressive in the very begining of the game. Why you are not questioning me for my attacks on Zedus?

**Zedus** · June 26th, 2020, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dallarian

Calling any lynch D1 to be random lynch, and manipulating to make Martin appear to want random lynch?

Nothing changed. Martin still lynch-happy suspicious person, who trying to lead town, but not allowed to. After re-read I still changed my opinion from "he is evil" to "he is incompetent and selfish". He still can be evil, but our "duel" is evil-benifit in any case. That's why I prefer to look around for now.

Originally Posted by Dallarian

What is your answer to #484?

As for my plan, we don't need it if we removing focus from this "duel".
As for you, you are 100% evil if Martin is evil, because only strong "teaming" in game is you and Martin. If we suggest Martin is ok, there is no reason to vote you for me. At this time.

**SuperJack** · June 26th, 2020, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Renegade

@SuperJack

What is the simplest way for us to ISO other players? In another game I played someone was able to create links for each player similar to what Marino was trying.

View the first post I made. Press post count and then the number correlation to the player. It then isolated all their posts.
(We hopefully will be developing this feature soon to make it easier)

**Auwt** · June 26th, 2020, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dallarian

Auwt, you have observed I am being aggressive in the very begining of the game. Why you are not questioning me for my attacks on Zedus?

I was the one starting to put pressure on a possible Zedus/bakermir team.
Questioning you about your attack on Zedus would discredit me af.

I just think Zedus showed us some good townier vibes, I'm still waiting for his power role to be revealed.

**Dallarian** · June 26th, 2020, 09:46 AM

I need to reevaluate Zedus' position in the game.
I keep my vote on him for earlier mentioned reason.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Dallarian

I need to reevaluate Zedus' position in the game.
I keep my vote on him for earlier mentioned reason.

I don't know if one decent contribution post is enough. But I think he is high off his own fumes and full of himself.

**Grakylan** · June 26th, 2020, 10:23 AM

@SuperJack What's the vote count right now?

**Grakylan** · June 26th, 2020, 10:26 AM

Nvm, found out theres a Vote Count button at the top. In this case...

**Grakylan** · June 26th, 2020, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Helltanis

[spoiler]
@Martin
Townhe could be our greatest ally due to the stats and information given and statistics
Scum he may have started to get our trust early on and a bit to confirm townies

@Grakyln
Townhe may possible be town but has been afk for some time I'm still unsure
Scumor he may possible scum ducking very low

@Dallarian [/COLOR]Townhe may be town due to the reason of votes to get information out of people
scumhe may be scum due to the fact he dint include himself but otherwise his fine

@Zedus
Townhe may be town due to the fact he dint want any random lynches
scumhe may be scum when he overreacted with Martin question

@Ash leai
Townshe may be a great ally with a sharp analytical mind and information
Scum with good deception and trust at the beginning Martin clarified her as town but I say we need more information for judgement

@Auwt
Town he has nice theorys on the people who dont talk as much and have suspicion activitys
scum he may be scum cause he was voted and gave some information to lower tension

@Renegade
Townhe pays attention to people who arnt here and are too silentScumor his using silent people to get a quick lynch or draw suspicion somewhere else

@Bakmir
Townhas interesting information on people which can aid town
Scum he could use deception in some information on page 1-3 was relatively useless posts
[/spoiler]

Both sidesing everyone like a certain world leader that is divisive.

But 45 min later he starts drawing at least two somewhat conclusive reads and then says everyone else is null.

Originally Posted by Helltanis

Scum lean
@Bakmir still he reads and has little or no information as townie so his low value target for mafia or he is a scum

Town lean
@Renegade he gets information out of people a town sign

[COLOR="#00FF00"][/

this was 2am in the US west coast so idk if hes in EU or if he has a weird sleeping schedule.

Even Ash has right to worry about him.

Originally Posted by Ash Lael

So... you don’t have an opinion on whether Zedus or Martin are scum? The pros and cons of those questions have been discussed extensively, I’m sure that you should be able to develop some sort of opinion on them.

Originally Posted by Ash Lael

And... if you don’t have a scum read on Martin, why did you try to vote him before?

Ok now look at this!

Originally Posted by Ash Lael

So. We have it here in black and white. You attempted to vote Martin. You edited your post (against the rules) to hide that attempted vote. And now you’re trying to claim it never happened.

Please. Explain yourself. Because right now to me this looks damning.

Refer to the edited posts here:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post870084

He edited out his vote for Martin to cover up his tracks.

After being cornered by Ash, he throws an irrelevent question

Originally Posted by Helltanis

I want everyone to answer this question

If you had 3 wishes what would you wish for
I d wish for fame and reputation from my fellow comrades
I d wish for corna to go away really impacts my future
I d wish for a successful career as an accountant

then next post says

Originally Posted by Helltanis

Ok so if I did try to vote Martin it must of been due to the 1fact I want to see how votes work otherwise I wanted to vote Graklyn

that seems to be kind of a bs reason.

I don't think Helltanis is the "headless chicken" he's trying to make himself out to be.

Of course I know a headless chicken. He's me.

So for the sake of being decisive, and cause I didn't see more than one person refer to Helltanis' fuck up in the last few pages...

**Grakylan** · June 26th, 2020, 10:27 AM

-vote Helltanis

**Grakylan** · June 26th, 2020, 10:27 AM

And I will be keeping track of our other suspects as the game goes on. Do we concur with voting Helltanis? Or are we still considering Zedus or someone else?

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 10:32 AM

Oh jeeze, when you do ISO's sometimes you find stuff you somehow missed. For example, at #77

Originally Posted by Dallarian

Also I believe I have learnt new phrase in English for that, "flip floping"? I am still unsure about it's meaning, would be happy if someone explained it to me.

@Dallarian
Yes, "Flip flopping" is like bouncing between two sides; jumping from yes to no and no to yes; calling someone scum, then call them town, and call them scum again.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Oh jeeze, when you do ISO's sometimes you find stuff you somehow missed. For example, at #77

@Dallarian
Yes, "Flip flopping" is like bouncing between two sides; jumping from yes to no and no to yes; calling someone scum, then call them town, and call them scum again.

Yes and sorry for anyone else if someone uses a phrase that is new to you please ask or clarify the meaning, especially with english idioms.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 11:30 AM

I just realized. Grakylan litterally said this early in the game and Zedus didn't react at all to it.

Originally Posted by Grakylan

I guess I will do the same shit I do in the mod, random lynch to get info and shit

And yet we had a whole circus just because Zedus though I was random lynching.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 11:31 AM

Theories on @Zedus goofy behavior

Axis 1 - Motivation
1. Aggressive player who wants to martyr himself for the sake of future "good" town gameplay, determined to teach us a lesson
2. Aggressive player who truly has no specific goal and is being as distracting as possible

Axis 2 - Alignment
A. Scum
B. Town

In 1A, this actually makes sense. I could see a scum response being "DON'T LYNCH ANYONE" after getting some heat.

In 2A, if we do lynch a town, Zedus will use that to his advantage and could run the game with it, assuming all players give him "town cred"

In 1B, a piss poor play, and harms the town regardless of the outcome.

And 2B, I just can't even.

Assuming Zedus does have a head on his shoulders, it makes more sense to me that he would argue for a no lynch, but have town still lynch and hope for a town flip, and then use that to his advantage to "lead" the town. This points to scum.

I am fine with lynching Hellantis, just DO NOT GIVE ZEDUS ANY CREDIT tomorrow if Helly flips town.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I just realized. Grakylan litterally said this early in the game and Zedus didn't react at all to it.

And yet we had a whole circus just because Zedus though I was random lynching.

Yup. Huge inconsistency in behavior here.

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 11:37 AM

Where are the EU folks? We have around 5.5 hours until EOD.

**Auwt** · June 26th, 2020, 11:46 AM

For me, Helltanis edited message could be seen in 2 different ways :
1- As many of us look this as : Helltanis tried to vote Martin then edited to "cover up his track" as Grakylan said.
2- Helltanis tried to follow the wave and vote Martin, but then realized, It could be better for him to wait a mentor, therefore removed his vote.

The second option seems fair to me.
If anyone agree/disagree/have another option to add just tell it.
And I really dont know, recent post from everyone show some expectation that Helltanis could flip townie.
Some of my old reads I made in my ISO are trying to shift between scuminess and towniness.

Will vote soon enough.

**Dallarian** · June 26th, 2020, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Renegade

Where are the EU folks? We have around 5.5 hours until EOD.

Reading, thinking over, preparing heavy cannons.
We had productive discussion today. I would be probably pushing Helltanis right now, but I am focusing right now on someone else.

Originally Posted by rumox

Not to say that you should be posting as little as possible, you should always post when you feel like you have something important to say. The game culture currently swings into a lot of little micro posts which is incredibly tedious/annoying to keep up with. Think of your posts as very valuable, make them count. Don't fall into the trap of slinging low effort micro posts all the time because I believe it encourages bad habits.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 11:50 AM

I can finish the rest of my ISO reads in about an hour or hour and a half. Just two more people to go. Then i'll post here.

**Auwt** · June 26th, 2020, 11:57 AM

Renegade any thought toward Martin?
And also what do you think about Bakermir?

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 12:12 PM

I haven't finished the ISO for Renegade, but based on what I saw on Helltanis and the fact that we have 2 votes on him, as compared to Grakylan, I felt it was important to post now.

Here are my ISO analyses, they're only updated for posts up to post #505.

This will be in alphabetical order (first to last: Awut, Ash Lael, Bakermir, Dallarian, Grakylan, Helltanis, Renegade)
I wont be doing Zedus since his consistent tunneled attacks from mid day 1 of the Day 1 Phase on me makes bias against him rather impossible to avoid.

I'm going to read ISO each as if I hadn't read their posts before, and I hope to gain insights that way.

Spoiler : Auwt :

His opening at #85 was completely fine, in my opinion. I believe a lot of what goes on between him and Dallarian early on is just friendly rivalry or nitpicking on each other.

At #96 he responds to Helltanis and tells him about mentors.

At #154 is his first read wall post. I feel (regardless of the fact that he noted that I perceived by him as very town at the time) he makes some valuable points in that post that goes beyond the reads. If he was scum, why share all those facts? Why not just stop at the reads? And, honestly, he does defend me quite a fair bit here, it would seem.

Soon after at #156, he says this:

Originally Posted by Auwt

I am hard defending Martin because he doesnt look scum to me at all, the scum attack on him wasnt properly organised, some vote were thrown like : why not lol?

I wonder if his opinion still holds up for this? I'm not going to comment if this is towny since obviously I would be potentially biased in saying so. Other townies will have to make that determination for me.

At #218 Auwt followed up with Helltanis's point where Dallarian said "may the town win" and didn't include himself in that. I feel like thats more of a mistake originating from having English as a second language; don't forget he's active around Europe's time. That doesn't mean he's from the United Kingdom and knows english like from the back of his hand (though he does show quite some understanding of english). And considering Auwt seems know Dallarian prior to this game, it bothers me that Auwt follows up with the Helltanis point.

At #222 Auwt insinuates that the votes on me for my SoD question feel like a random lynch.

Roughly the same time he starts to butt heads with Ash Lael over difference of opinion over my question.

At #257 is when he actually makes the first suggestion that goes against me, where he says he believes the only 2 possible scum combinations at that time are Zedus/bakermir and Dallarian/Martin. He then goes off for the day.

He returns at #478, with a wall post. He explains and argues that it wouldn't be wise to kill or protect me tonight since quite clearly I'm a controversial figure within the game. He the colorizes his responses to Bakermir's big post and return since SoD1. He also states that (if I understand it correctly, I'm sorry if I don't) Bakermir having 50% null reads is evidence of why the question at start was needed, and therefore anything against it is scummy. He also responds to Bakermir saying that he's keeping an eye on me. (Hi Auwt!) He then states that he feels Grakylan is a powerless townie, since he has mentioned he was busy, but would very much like to see more from him if its possible. Auwt then proceeds to respond to several Zedus posts, and points out problems with them. He also explains that its possible that there may only be one scum in Bakermir/Zedus/Martin, or that Bakermir could be distancing if hes scum with Zedus (as he iterates that in the following posts)

Conclusion: Unless Auwt is playing at a high level as scum, I doubt he is scum. Therefore, he's town. He has made contributions to the game that would seem unecessary for scum to do, especially in a mostly-noob game.

Spoiler : Ash Lael :

I like his opening for the sake that it does make him look town to me, but even if the question was hazardous, i still felt like it was worth something in terms of starting conversation/discussion. I just wish I didn't have to release the information about the question. It would've been harmless if everyone answered what power role they would've wished for. A player's answer to that would've been no different if they were a TPR, Citizen, or Scum if they had all answered it. It wouldn't have been power role indicative of anyone. However, we're way past that now so its mostly irrelevant to talk about now for the time being, unless we suspect Ash was scum.

I do appreciate that he's the first to post his reads (after me) in the game. I really do. Its one of the best ways to help start discussion, and I continued discussion by stating my response and feelings to the read.

He then later on also seems to fairly weigh the perceived chance that I am inexperienced (smart?) town, or just smart evil.

I don't think he has ever been tunneling on me though, as in the coming posts he does another read and also occasionally questions other players.

Over the course of his next posts, he continues to have problems with people answering my question, and then butts heads with Auwt for about 2 posts. As much as I might disagree with him, its clear he's consistent in what he thinks and thought. Its not like he was scum and questioned me to look town only to discard that once that was done. No, instead he held onto those thoughts. Upon reflection on this, i think I should've kept him as town locked on my last read. Only way to see this as scum is if he was a Scum who planned to get me lynched,and right now he's just waiting for the right moments. But I don't feel that's accurate.

Then we get derailed by Zedus. I don't think I need to comment on this, after all Zedus was insulting everyone at times when he ascertained and/or implied intellectual superiority.

He then gets tangled in my poorly worded explanation of the psychological effects of knowing who's who as a mafia, while not knowing who's who as a townie. Sorry for all the trouble im giving you Ash. I don't mean to agonize you lol.

At #449, Ash starts suspecting Helltanis because of his recent posts, namely his reads list that seems to conflict with the situation day 1 (I.e. whether I or Zedus is scum or town) and the fact that he originally tried to vote me in an edited post. And since he vote Grakylan, Ash says this is the best argument for Grakylan being town.

At the moment, he feels if he were to lynch anyone it would be Helltanis, Zedus, Grakylan, and Martin. But he would prefer to start with Zedus.

Conclusion: While there are some things about him that can be argued to be scummy, I feel that he really holds onto his reads and ideas, while still being flexible to new ones. Probably a much better town than I, and this whole game has been a learning experience for me, especially since I've had 0 games until now. Definitely town.

Spoiler : Bakermir :

Spoiler : Dallarian :

Spoiler : Grakylan :

Spoiler : Helltanis :

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 12:13 PM

Case in short: I feel Helltanis may be completely innocent. This is mostly feel though, there isn't definitive evidence. But then again other than that one vote, there's not much incriminating about him

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Case in short: I feel Helltanis may be completely innocent. This is mostly feel though, there isn't definitive evidence. But then again other than that one vote, there's not much incriminating about him

Which seems more likely to you, this is a genuine question not a gotcha:

Based on Hellatlantis so far, is he playing the powerless townie game or the lay low scum game?

**Renegade** · June 26th, 2020, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Auwt

Renegade any thought toward Martin?
And also what do you think about Bakermir?

I think Martin has been genuine and after some early stumbles is being helpful for town.

Bakemire is the person I have the least of a read on. I will get back to you on this point I promise.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Renegade

Which seems more likely to you, this is a genuine question not a gotcha:

Based on Hellatlantis so far, is he playing the powerless townie game or the lay low scum game?

I think for me the question is whether Grak is playing the lay low scum game or Helltanis is. Honestly, I sympathize with Helltanis being overwhelmed (hence the initial lack of posting) if he didn't know much about Mafia, which his early posts suggest. I think the vote was a test, and he didn't want to look bad once he had tested it. Unfortunately for him, there was no delete button. Only an edit button and so he changed it to a person he saw a suspicious. You know, the person who endorsed random lynching as part of his introduction.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I think for me the question is whether Grak is playing the lay low scum game or Helltanis is. Honestly, I sympathize with Helltanis being overwhelmed (hence the initial lack of posting) if he didn't know much about Mafia, which his early posts suggest. I think the vote was a test, and he didn't want to look bad once he had tested it. Unfortunately for him, there was no delete button. Only an edit button and so he changed it to a person he saw a suspicious. You know, the person who endorsed random lynching as part of his introduction.

So, yes. I think Helltanis is being a powerless townie. Not by choice, though. Dallarian summoned him probably from another game or off the interweebs.

**Dallarian** · June 26th, 2020, 12:25 PM

@Helltanis
Work on your style please. Your posts are difficult to read, have many errors and are short. Try to think more about the case, but a few posts together and read them before you post it, remove errors.
You're still harder to read than SJ.
I start thinking Hellstorm is being pushed for his bad style and being easy pray.

Originally Posted by Dallarian

I suspect Zedus to be in team with Helltanis.

I find no reason for such claim now. I find no connection between them. The thought was based on both's suspicious behaviour and Helltanis' trying to put attention on Martin, which isn't probably true.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 12:26 PM

Oh, and by the way, Grakylan Is voting Helltanis.

**MartinGG99** · June 26th, 2020, 12:28 PM

-vote Grakylan

**Ash Lael** · June 26th, 2020, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Auwt

Renegade any thought toward Martin?
And also what do you think about Bakermir?

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I’ll answer anyway.

Whenever I contemplate a town Martin world the one thing that sticks in my craw the most is how his own play so perfectly matched what he described to be scum play.

For most players I wouldn’t obsess over that. Townies say self-incriminating or thoughtless things all the time, because they aren’t self-aware. They don’t obsess over the way they post or think about how it looks the way scum do.

But Martin is self-aware. He’s said it himself, and more importantly, he’s showed it repeatedly.

It’s really hard for me to buy that this guy who obsesses over himself and how he comes across (but only because he’s anxious and egotistical! Honest!) just goes and matches what he describes as a scummy playstyle rather than a towny playstyle unless he’s actually experiencing the same pressures and drives that he says create that scummy play.

But then, I think Zedus is scum and I don’t think they’re together, so I guess I have to buy Martin as town? But very very reluctantly.

**Ash Lael** · June 26th, 2020, 12:36 PM

And Grakylan’s recent push on Hellstatis could of course be townie - his case is basically the same as my case. But it could also be a self-preservation motivated scum who thinks his best chance is pushing the person many see as a direct alternative to him.

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