Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

[BananaCucho]

The mental gymnastics you religious nuts go through to justify this shit is amazing. Always invoking the founding fathers even though none of them pushed for/promoted religious mottos that were enacted long after they were all dead.

[Ganelon]

I’m not a religious nut lmao

[Ganelon]

I’m not even religious, let alone a nut

[Ganelon]

Actually I would convert to Catholicism and go DEUS VULT! And smite all heathens in Rachyl’s holy name /s

[BananaCucho]

I’m not a religious nut lmao

Whatever you say boss.

[Ganelon]

Banana I can see you feel very strongly about certain things and that’s okay, but I’m not your enemy or something. I’m really not religious, you can ask like 50 people on this website and they’d tell you the same thing. Sure I’m pro-religion but I’m only pro-good religion. I don’t like fanaticism. I don’t see anything wrong with religion when it’s not taken to the extreme

[rumox]

Majority of the founding fathers were not deists but okay, majority were Christian. The person who designed the coin was a Reverend. The person who authorized the design is arguably Christian. The president that expanded the motto was Christian.

Are you sure you can confidently claim that they aren't referring to the Christian god?

[BananaCucho]

Majority of the founding fathers were not deists but okay, majority were Christian. The person who designed the coin was a Reverend. The person who authorized the design is arguably Christian. The president that expanded the motto was Christian.

Are you sure you can confidently claim that they aren't referring to the Christian god?

You can if you twist the argument as much as possible to make it so

[rumox]

Anyway, whether if it's a Christian God or an everyman God is beside the point. Not very secular to reference it in the first place.

[Ganelon]

I guess. Mississippi is also quite a religious state, I imagine so it’s probably motivated by religion. I don’t find the phrase particularly religious in and of itself, but I understand where you’re coming from.

[rumox]

I guess. Mississippi is also quite a religious state, I imagine so it’s probably motivated by religion. I don’t find the phrase particularly religious in and of itself, but I understand where you’re coming from.

Care to explain... I don't want to pre-emptively say mental gymnastics but I honestly have no idea how you can come to this conclusion without it.

[Helz]

Dude what.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Of course the Union is not going to recognize a big part of it deciding to secede (because they want to keep slaves, no less), just like literally every other country that that would happen to. The actual start of aggression and battle was by the Confederacy lmao.

We are totally going to have to just agree to disagree here. Im not sure there is any chance of us finding common ground when you admit in your own statement that of course the Union would not allow the confederacy to go peacefully while simultaneously blaming the confederacy as the aggressor.

Wanting to leave and wanting war are two ideas I will never consider synonymous.

I suppose you'll also start arguing that the US government recognize CHAZ as a foreign nation, right? (spoiler: he won't)

I believe they want to call themselves CHOP now? And why on earth would I make such an absurd argument?

I do love that place. Its the total face of hypocrisy.
They say they want independence but then turn around and demand donations of food, berthing, clothing, and medical supplies.
They say police are too violent and AR-15s are unnecessary but then they create their own cops geared out with AR-15s and physically assault people who wear anything that resembles a police support patch.
I think my favorite moment was when someone was dying and they refused to allow police and emergency services into the area but then blamed the government for that persons death when they didnt get treatment fast enough.

I like what they are doing because it demonstrates how bullshit their beliefs are in actual practice. Kinda reminds me of all the Anti-Gun nuts that hit me up for a gun as soon as they were afraid that the government may fall at the start of this COVID thing. Before people could only argue hypotheticals but now we get to grab the popcorn and watch their hypocrisy unfold in real time. Its very entertaining : )


To your insinuation of the US government allowing anything to separate now its an invalid argument in my opinion for a number of reasons. The biggest is that at the time of the civil war there was nothing prohibiting states from leaving. That had simply not been addressed in any form. Now there is agreements and law prohibiting any state from leaving. Texas joined as sovereign nation and does not have the legal right to leave. These issues did not exist back then.
The second issue is that now we have national debt and every American citizen owes 67,000 dollars twards that debt. So say..Wyoming (which has the smallest population in the US) wanted to leave they would need to fork over 38.7 billion dollars just to cover that National Debt.
Thats not even touching on state / municipality debt, or the federal subsidization that keeps state funded public services and infrastructure working, or even the federal land holdings within the state.

TLDR- Trying to compare areas separating from the US today is totally different than it was back then and makes no sense.

[Helz]

Simultaneously.

>see libtards? republicans aren't racists, democrats are the real racists.

I mean.. They did found the KKK and fight hard against black rights.. It wouldn't be hard to argue they now exploit the minority population in the US for political power

Jokes aside I do not feel that its fair to call either party racist. Entire political partys are just too broad of a category. I feel like thats just part of the polarizing political kool-aid thats generously dispersed. Reminds me of back when Trump got elected and there was a push that it only happened because of uneducated people voting for Trump or because of African American Women thinking Hillary was a snake.

[Helz]

We should add "In Satan we trust"

Do you think that's a bad idea?

In a way they are kind of the same thing. Saying "In God we trust" in no way designates which God.. If anything loose the capital G on God and it makes room for polytheism then the only ones left out are of the atheist variety and why should they care? I never understood why a Nihilist feels the need to push that view against a Fatalist. If nothing matters to that person who gives a shit if someone else talks to an imaginary sky man?

On a side note sometime last winter I studied the belief structure of the Satanic Temple after reading about their satanic statue thing and I found their belief structure to preform almost all of the same functions as other religions while also encouraging moral behavior in many regards. Totally worth reading into if you like learning about different beliefs.

[Helz]

Yet it concerns christians so much if they're not able to force their religious beliefs on everyone else

Isn't that all religious though? The Catholic church did it for century's by torching people for science and the Muslims do it now by blowing people up.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Satanists are encouraging moral behavior? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of satanism to promote admittedly pure evil (whether that exists or not) and literally praise it?

[rumox]

In a way they are kind of the same thing. Saying "In God we trust" in no way designates which God.. If anything loose the capital G on God and it makes room for polytheism then the only ones left out are of the atheist variety and why should they care? I never understood why a Nihilist feels the need to push that view against a Fatalist. If nothing matters to that person who gives a shit if someone else talks to an imaginary sky man?

It is still denoting A God. Your choice of wording implies you are talking from some religious viewpoint (the only ones left out are of the atheist variety and why should they care?) and honestly this just confirms my view. Non-religious people are the minority in the world, and then in the USA it's drastically even more shifted in favor of theists. It makes sense to me that "In God we trust" has been codified in US law as NOT being a religious statement when the people that it is in reference to are overwhelmingly the majority of the populace. The religious population in the USA in 2016 was 79.1%, opposed to 20.9% non religion/no answers.

If a vote was put to the public where religious beliefs or lack of were attached to an individuals vote about whether "In God we trust" is a religious statement or not, I have a feeling I already will know what the results would look like.

[rumox]

Also to not believe in god doesn't defacto mean you are a Nihilist.

[Ganelon]

What do you mean by religious? I believe there is a higher power but I do not subscribe to any of the standard religious beliefs and my beliefs aren’t really at the center of my being. I do have some moral beliefs but those are divorced from my beliefs in a higher power.
Im not religious and I don’t find this innocuous phrase important. I know they’re not going to enshrine any religion as the state/main religion in the US or in Mississippi just because of one sentence that has a long history and which is so overused that it essentially has little religious meaning.

[Ganelon]

Satanists are encouraging moral behavior? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of satanism to promote admittedly pure evil (whether that exists or not) and literally praise it?

No, the point is for people to turn their firstborn child into the literal incarnation of Satan and conquer the World through their awesome power.
Just make sure your firstborn gets all the inheritance or they may try to assassinate their siblings.

[rumox]

Ganelon don't @ me until you respond to my previous post, until you do I don't feel like I can in good faith continue this topic with you.

I will say I think you need to become familiar with what to be secular really means.

[BananaCucho]

It is still denoting A God. Your choice of wording implies you are talking from some religious viewpoint (the only ones left out are of the atheist variety and why should they care?) and honestly this just confirms my view. Non-religious people are the minority in the world, and then in the USA it's drastically even more shifted in favor of theists. It makes sense to me that "In God we trust" has been codified in US law as NOT being a religious statement when the people that it is in reference to are overwhelmingly the majority of the populace. The religious population in the USA in 2016 was 79.1%, opposed to 20.9% non religion/no answers.

If a vote was put to the public where religious beliefs or lack of were attached to an individuals vote about whether "In God we trust" is a religious statement or not, I have a feeling I already will know what the results would look like.

Man my rep button is all worn out

[Ganelon]

Care to explain... I don't want to pre-emptively say mental gymnastics but I honestly have no idea how you can come to this conclusion without it.

The phrase is all over the place. It doesn’t mean anything. In God we Trust is just a blessing. It’s a patriotic slogan that doesn’t have any religious meaning. I frankly don’t understand why that’s such an issue. It’s not as if the Government is going to enforce religion. I would start worrying when the government tells you you need to be religious to do certain things. Which isn’t the case.

[BananaCucho]

Satanists are encouraging moral behavior? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of satanism to promote admittedly pure evil (whether that exists or not) and literally praise it?

I will refer you to these posts, buried in the "cancerous" portion of the thread.

This is biased conjecture. Morality does not depend on religion.

Religion has its own moral code. That moral code does not apply to everyone. So you can say "religion can and did give people morals to live by" but all it's doing is enforcing its own moral code.

Why is divorce an immoral act? You know what's immoral? A religious leader telling an abused wife to give her husband another chance and stay in the marriage to avoid a divorce. You know what else is immoral? Someone breaking their marital vows and betraying their spouse's trust by going behind their spouses back to cheat on them for years. Wanna know another one? Staying in a loveless marriage because marriage is "moral".

"Marriage" is not a moral act. It is neither moral nor immoral. Same with divorce. Unless you're religious, and your belief is that marriage is ordained of god, and that divorce is a sin.

"In god we trust" is in no way a moral statement, and should not be the motto of a country that prides itself in being a diverse melting pot of ideas.

[Ganelon]

Uh, i don’t see what it being a moral statement has anything to do with if
its not a moral statement at all, it’s not even much of a religious statement

[BananaCucho]

Uh, i don’t see what it being a moral statement has anything to do with if
its not a moral statement at all, it’s not even much of a religious statement

Read the post I was responding to.

[Ganelon]

Also Banana it is VERY unfair of you to take those stances and paint religion as a whole with it. Not everyone who is religious believes that.

[BananaCucho]

Also Banana it is VERY unfair of you to take those stances and paint religion as a whole with it. Not everyone who is religious believes that.

What stances are you referring to here? I responded to secondpassing that was arguing marriage = moral and divorce = immoral, and mallow who was arguing against "In Satan we trust" due to its "immorality" vs "In god we trust". So what am I painting here?

[BananaCucho]

The phrase is all over the place. It doesn’t mean anything. In God we Trust is just a blessing. It’s a patriotic slogan that doesn’t have any religious meaning. I frankly don’t understand why that’s such an issue. It’s not as if the Government is going to enforce religion. I would start worrying when the government tells you you need to be religious to do certain things. Which isn’t the case.

I want to impart the blessing of Satan, who is the God of this world, with his many powers and priesthoods. I propose a compromise. Since "In Satan we trust" is a patriotic slogan to me, and just a meaningless blessing to others, I propose that the new motto be: "In God we trust, and Satan too".

[rumox]

its not a moral statement at all, it’s not even much of a religious statement

You are so close to breaking the veil of whatever dogma you hold onto.

Also, "In God we trust" is a moral statement. The very core of religion is to indoctrinate followers with a specific moral compass. To endorse a blanket statement for all citizens about the TRUTH from a religious perspective is an affront to anyone not religious. It is another way of saying "our morality is the truth". It is propelling a class in front of another. Fuck the motto.

[Ganelon]

What stances are you referring to here? I responded to secondpassing that was arguing marriage = moral and divorce = immoral, and mallow who was arguing against "In Satan we trust" due to its "immorality" vs "In god we trust". So what am I painting here?

I feel you’re very profoundly anti-religion and your statements show that. It’s not okay to say that ‘Christians want to impose their beliefs’ on everybody else. It’s not as if even a majority of Christians do that. Christianity is long past that now. These people are in the minority.
I can see why someone would say divorce is immoral. Theres many wrong things about divorce; first the fact that you arrived at the point where divorce is the only way forward shows that something seriously wrong happened somewhere. Either they married the wrong person or something horrible happened after marriage. It’s also not okay to leave your children behind just because you cannot reconcile with the other person.

Of course, divorce should be legal and I’m not claiming otherwise. But I definitely think that religious people have a point when they say divorce is wrong (it is, and there’s absolutely no question about it). You can’t just dismiss it.

I dont really see what point you’re trying to make about Satan because Satan is a well defined being. God isn’t. God means different things to different people. If we look at the statement from a religious standpoint, it could mean that the Supreme Being protects America. Or even spirituality. It doesn’t matter which god. Replacing that with Satan is about as secular as replacing it with Christ, Shiva, Thor, Allah or Jehovah.

[Ganelon]

You are so close to breaking the veil of whatever dogma you hold onto.

Also, "In God we trust" is a moral statement. The very core of religion is to indoctrinate followers with a specific moral compass. To endorse a blanket statement for all citizens about the TRUTH from a religious perspective is an affront to anyone not religious. It is another way of saying "our morality is the truth". It is propelling a class in front of another. Fuck the motto.

Bro ‘God protects America’ doesn’t offend anyone. If I told you God protected this forum why should you feel offended? As far as I’m concerned he protects all people equally regardless of religious belief or lack thereof.

[rumox]

Divorce is immoral? Are you sure about that? According to the institute you are speaking for divorce is neither moral or immoral, it's the actions or landscape leading up to it that determine what it is.

[Ganelon]

I find it ridiculous to suggest that ‘I’m breaking the veil of whatever sigma I’m ascribing to’. I am NOT religious, at the end of the day I couldn’t care less what people believed or didn’t. I think however that it’s ridiculous to mount an all-our assault on religious belief and paint it as irrational and therefore wrong, AND evil. There are legitimate grievances to be heard on both sides, but it’s plain WRONG to paint all religious belief as non-sensical and the people who ascribe to it as children who worship sky daddies.

[rumox]

Lift the veil bruh

[BananaCucho]

I feel you’re very profoundly anti-religion and your statements show that. It’s not okay to say that ‘Christians want to impose their beliefs’ on everybody else. It’s not as if even a majority of Christians do that. Christianity is long past that now. These people are in the minority.
I can see why someone would say divorce is immoral. Theres many wrong things about divorce; first the fact that you arrived at the point where divorce is the only way forward shows that something seriously wrong happened somewhere. Either they married the wrong person or something horrible happened after marriage. It’s also not okay to leave your children behind just because you cannot reconcile with the other person.

Of course, divorce should be legal and I’m not claiming otherwise. But I definitely think that religious people have a point when they say divorce is wrong (it is, and there’s absolutely no question about it). You can’t just dismiss it.

I dont really see what point you’re trying to make about Satan because Satan is a well defined being. God isn’t. God means different things to different people. If we look at the statement from a religious standpoint, it could mean that the Supreme Being protects America. Or even spirituality. It doesn’t matter which god. Replacing that with Satan is about as secular as replacing it with Christ, Shiva, Thor, Allah or Jehovah.

Yes I am very much anti religion. I grew up in a country full of people who have tried to force their religious beliefs onto everyone else. For example, gay marriage was not legal in every state in the USA until just 5 years ago. 5. Fucking. Years ago. Because "religious beliefs say gay marriage is bad". There was literally no other explanation for restricting american's freedom to marry. Other than religious beliefs.

It's even worse growing up in Utah. Mormons account for almost 90% of my state's legislature. And believe me, they consistently try to impose the will of the LDS church here in the state as much as they can. The LDS church literally pays lobbyists to push their religious agendas through my state. Voters will vote one way, but the church doesn't like it? They impose their will. They enforce their moral code.

You know that I used to be on the other side of the coin? I used to use mental gymnastics to defend my cult, and in a broader sense to also defend christianity when it came to the public sphere. But since my departure from mormonism in 2015 I was able to let go of trying to justify every stupid little viewpoint that religious folk try to shove down everyone else's throats. So yeah, I have a bitter relationship with religion. There's a saying among mormons for us "anti" folk - "You can leave the church but you can't leave the church alone". Well, all I want is for the church (and all religion) to leave me in peace, and let me be free of it.

[BananaCucho]

Bro ‘God protects America’ doesn’t offend anyone. If I told you God protected this forum why should you feel offended? As far as I’m concerned he protects all people equally regardless of religious belief or lack thereof.

God doesn't exist. I don't trust in something that doesn't exist.

[Ganelon]

No, divorce isn’t immoral but it’s definirely WRONG. You only have one life. How much time are you gonna waste with divorces? That’s why you look HARD for the right person to make sure that divorce isn’t necessary, and work with them through the relationship to make sure that differences are resolved peacefully and productively. You can’t possibly have me look at someone who divorced and go, GEE WELL DONE, you did something with your life. Of course abuses happen and people have all the right to get a divorce then, but that doesn’t change the fact that they wasted years of their lives with the wrong person. Nobody can give that time back to them; how do you make up for that time? What if you have kids? How are kids going to grow up with only one parent? There’s literally a million issues with divorce.

[Ganelon]

God doesn't exist. I don't trust in something that doesn't exist.

If he doesn’t exist, why even care then? lol

[Ganelon]

Ngl you guys are turning me slowly into a religious fundamentalist

[Ganelon]

Which is hilarious considering I don’t really believe in any religion. I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus, I don’t believe in the Christian God, I think the god that makes the most sense is theGos of Judaism and even him I don’t believe in. Yet here I am defending religious principles.

[Ganelon]

God doesn't exist. I don't trust in something that doesn't exist.

Also, I thought you rejected belief in God, not BELIEVED he didn’t exist :P

[BananaCucho]

If he doesn’t exist, why even care then? lol

Read my last post

"In god we trust" as a motto and repeated everywhere reinforces the idea that this is a "christian nation". I hear that argument ALL THE TIME. "Gay marriage should be illegal, because this is a christian nation, founded by christian forefathers that trusted in god, and god says its bad".

People say "I'll pray for you" to me all the time. You know what? I have no issue with that. In fact, I respond with "thank you". Same if they tell me "god bless you" (my Colombian relatives in particular do this a lot). I have no problem with that.

But a motto is supposed to represent a nation as a whole. Yet this one doesn't represent me.

[rumox]

No, divorce isn’t immoral but it’s definirely WRONG. You only have one life. How much time are you gonna waste with divorces? That’s why you look HARD for the right person to make sure that divorce isn’t necessary, and work with them through the relationship to make sure that differences are resolved peacefully and productively. You can’t possibly have me look at someone who divorced and go, GEE WELL DONE, you did something with your life. Of course abuses happen and people have all the right to get a divorce then, but that doesn’t change the fact that they wasted years of their lives with the wrong person. Nobody can give that time back to them; how do you make up for that time? What if you have kids? How are kids going to grow up with only one parent? There’s literally a million issues with divorce.

This is absolutely disgusting lol. I'm moving out of this discussion.

[Ganelon]

You realize Mormonism is very different from other strands of Christianity right? It’s sometimes not even seen as being Christian due to some very significant theological and cultural differences.

[Ganelon]

This is absolutely disgusting lol. I'm moving out of this discussion.

Would you say we should all get divorces then?
I know what you’ll say, that I demonized the victim. I’m not. I think it’s deplorable these things happen. That doesn’t make divorce GOOD. It makes it the lesser of two evils.

[BananaCucho]

You realize Mormonism is very different from other strands of Christianity right? It’s sometimes not even seen as being Christian due to some very significant theological and cultural differences.

You're avoiding the meat of my argument.

[Ganelon]

Read my last post

"In god we trust" as a motto and repeated everywhere reinforces the idea that this is a "christian nation". I hear that argument ALL THE TIME. "Gay marriage should be illegal, because this is a christian nation, founded by christian forefathers that trusted in god, and god says its bad".

People say "I'll pray for you" to me all the time. You know what? I have no issue with that. In fact, I respond with "thank you". Same if they tell me "god bless you" (my Colombian relatives in particular do this a lot). I have no problem with that.

But a motto is supposed to represent a nation as a whole. Yet this one doesn't represent me.

Religion does have it flaws. I think there is nothing wrong with gay marriage or with being gay. I didn’t argue it doesn’t have it flaws. It, like most things, does have its flaws. One cannot deny that it is fundamentally, misguided as though it may be at times, a force for good.

[BananaCucho]

This is absolutely disgusting lol. I'm moving out of this discussion.

Right, as much as he claims to not be religious, his viewpoints are definitely heavily influenced by it.

[BananaCucho]

Religion does have it flaws. I think there is nothing wrong with gay marriage or with being gay. I didn’t argue it doesn’t have it flaws. It, like most things, does have its flaws. One cannot deny that it is fundamentally, misguided as though it may be at times, a force for good.

Stop ignoring my points by addressing something else. The motto is horrible because people use it to justify forcing their beliefs on others. Good and bad.