S-FM 297: BioMed Industries (Coronavirus Version) - Ladder Game

[S-FM pringles]

Since my symbolic vote is buried in quotes and the spoiler tag:

-vote Pretzel

[S-FM MMXX]

To give where my headspace is at: There still seems to be a decent amount of discussion on things like "have I/you been towny this game"; "this or that are scummy"; and so on. I do not think this is the right lens to use. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will remind people of what I have said for a while now, building on premises that a lot of people have echoed (and honestly, I wish I'd given it more emphasis myself in the past days).

Scientist is under -no- obligation to do the things that are generally considered "scummy." In fact, they are uniquely positioned and incentivized, relative to other setups, to exhibit the behaviors that are often considered "towny":
- There are no association shackles binding the scientist. As many have said, the scientist is free to ignore, support, or bus their infected as they see fit.
- The above, in turn, removes one of the main reasons that scum like to lie under the radar and avoid taking a stand, as they usually fear being caught on associations (i.e. better to avoid making the choice than possibly making the wrong one).
- There are no power investigatives capable of finding the scientist. This makes joining the towncore much more powerful, as the towncore cannot be vetted, and doing so (with some degree of competence) probably ensures at least a few mislynches. These are quite meaningful given the game acceleration provided by culting + killing. In addition, one of the key tools, seeing how people perform under pressure, is rendered moot if the scientist quickly enters the town core.
- Finally, the scientist has plausible deniability regarding all kills, as the infected performs them without input from the scientist. (An addendum is that the scientist cannot be killed by their own infected, so there is no benefit in identifying themselves to the infected either).

In this light, for example, "coasting" and "hiding from the light" from the get-go really do not make sense as a scumplay and would only reflect a lazy scientist (I believed I said something to this effect before). I do not think we have such a scientist, given the people still alive.

I am -not- implying that being "towny" in the traditional sense makes you scum, i.e. I am not saying I want to lynch from the top. Instead it's more useful to think about larger stories / actions about someone's play, and if they more clearly fit either the town or scum perspective. To give an example, I have thought for a while on how punchy has (kinda) blatantly hunted me as TPR for several days. Maybe they are simply a really bold scientist, but I'd think that in most scenarios the real scientist would keep such a read to themselves, so that I feel safer.

Quetz raises some interesting points about pringles, and I've thought in a similar vein about how pringles has been town leader pretty much the whole game (the tldr is that I'm not decided yet). One comment on lining up lynches is that, unfortunately, lynches haven't been informative at all this game - they've just been "welp, this person isn't scientist."

For some reason, Quetz and Krabs occupy a similar spot in my head, even though they had very different starts to the game. This might be some self-centric thinking (both have scumread me and did not really move their reads on me following day 2/3, just using the doctor claim) plus their similar dips on day 3. Regardless, it is kind of disconcerting, as we have only one scum. It makes me wonder if pringles moved their read because they knew I was town.

[S-FM Quetzalcoatl]

This is false, I wanted Ice Cream, Krabs, or MMXX day 1 and was persuaded by my town reads to vote Hammond. Had I had my way ice cream was out of the question by day 2

And YOU agreed since day 1 that leaving ice cream til LYLO MYLYO would be a mistake since he's a liability

Do you deny this now?

I absolutely do not deny it, and as I said, you're not even scummy by your actions. I even agree with them all, and the lynches you ended up lining up seemed logical to me at the time, so I guess you could accuse me of the exact same things. The difference between you and me, however, is that I was really doubting about every choice, while you seemed to be confident and to do it in a mathematical manner. You are scummy in a way because you know what you are doing, because you are not confused, because you show a lot of certainity in your playstyle. It is not "too towny to be town" as you said, but "too certain to be town", or "too confident to be town". There is also the relative lack of defensive measures against disguisers you showed. I would have expected scum to infect or disguise you to gain a relatively easy town leader position, and to remove a strong player.

I am not sold on you being scum, because these are all weak tells when took individually, and I admit it. But there are not a ton of scummy people, and this is an unique setup with unique scumtells, because the Sciencist is a solo scum with no liabilities anywhere, since he can generate Infected Employees ad infinitum.

[S-FM punchy]

i typed a gigantic wall post and didnt notice my router was resetting when i sent it. mrmpht

[S-FM pringles]

Brb, gonna kill myself.

[S-FM pringles]

Nobody would ever disguise me. Only a really dedicated player would

[S-FM punchy]

im retyping is so hold on. mrmpht that was frustrating and there was a lot of stream of consciousness stuff. i will keep it more concise

[S-FM pringles]

I absolutely do not deny it, and as I said, you're not even scummy by your actions. I even agree with them all, and the lynches you ended up lining up seemed logical to me at the time, so I guess you could accuse me of the exact same things. The difference between you and me, however, is that I was really doubting about every choice, while you seemed to be confident and to do it in a mathematical manner. You are scummy in a way because you know what you are doing, because you are not confused, because you show a lot of certainity in your playstyle. It is not "too towny to be town" as you said, but "too certain to be town", or "too confident to be town". There is also the relative lack of defensive measures against disguisers you showed. I would have expected scum to infect or disguise you to gain a relatively easy town leader position, and to remove a strong player.

I am not sold on you being scum, because these are all weak tells when took individually, and I admit it. But there are not a ton of scummy people, and this is an unique setup with unique scumtells, because the Sciencist is a solo scum with no liabilities anywhere, since he can generate Infected Employees ad infinitum.

Confidence is not a scum tell

You're literally just making this shit up

[S-FM pringles]

I've never worked so hard at a game and I swear if I'm mislynched for being a leader and being confident then whats the point of trying ever again. This is downright depressing.

[S-FM pringles]

Next time I'll just intentionally play scummy lile ice cream, you'll all take me to the end anyway

[S-FM punchy]

I've never worked so hard at a game and I swear if I'm mislynched for being a leader and being confident then whats the point of trying ever again. This is downright depressing.

stop spoiling my fucking wallpost mrmpht.

[S-FM pringles]

stop spoiling my fucking wallpost mrmpht.

Sorry punchy, Im just fucking let down that I spent twho hours last night deconstructing the argument against me and pretzel discards it in one post and MMXX shows that their argument makes sense

Krabs, pretzel, mmxx. All they have to do is lazily vote for me. MMXX has no incentive to lynch correctly here or even try, even if we mislynch he gets infected and wins. So yeah Im pretty let down right now.

[S-FM pringles]

They dont even give evidence

The scum read on me is the laziest fucking effort I've ever seen to push a mislynch

[S-FM punchy]

let me preface this by being very clear. mrmpht. this lynch today from my perspective is pretzel and crab man but ill start with mmxx.

the primary reason mmxx striked me as a tpr is that they played with complete impunity up and curtness up until the end of day two. i usually mark these two characteristics as being scum or tpr related. this is the same confidence and recurring theme thats being brought up now but just against another player. while a lynch-train started gaining considerable momentum isod both players hre and mmxx at the time to see what made the most sense. hre was all over the place and mmxx instead doubled back to explain his side of things. its like i said day one. i think it is an important quality for town to be able to protect tpr roles through wifom but when that failed i didnt really have much of a choice other than to explicitly state how i read them. hre seemed infinitely more scummy than mmxx at the time a we proceeded towards day two.

with that im moving to mmxx headspace

Quetz raises some interesting points about pringles, and I've thought in a similar vein about how pringles has been town leader pretty much the whole game (the tldr is that I'm not decided yet). One comment on lining up lynches is that, unfortunately, lynches haven't been informative at all this game - they've just been "welp, this person isn't scientist."

For some reason, Quetz and Krabs occupy a similar spot in my head, even though they had very different starts to the game. This might be some self-centric thinking (both have scumread me and did not really move their reads on me following day 2/3, just using the doctor claim) plus their similar dips on day 3. Regardless, it is kind of disconcerting, as we have only one scum. It makes me wonder if pringles moved their read because they knew I was town.

people dont become a town leader unless there is largely a following or belief in that persons towniness. there was only one point this entire game where i feel pringles wasnt completely followed and that is when i advocated against mmxx being lynched. its because of this that i dont see why pringles is now suddenly a villain for doing what any town leader should be doing. for pretzel i think its apathy. for crab i think its scum paint.

those two have been like a big sitcom. a weird hate-love-sheep screenplay where pretzel says he hates crab. forgets about crab. gets sheeped by crab and then changes his lynch candidate. but i think pretzel has atleast offered reasons for his reads or was capable of fleshing them out. more specifically to crab man: you literally hammered on ice cream and didnt explain why.

I might be wrong here, and I genuinely hope i'm not for the sake of me bashing my head into a wall

-vote IceCreamFan

That play from IceCream screams scum, he's done.

i understand the context of the situation but when you close the thread like this after trying to get the doctor lynched the same day you can see how it might a little suspicious. this vote was almost 100% in response to pringles and then you start the day off gunning for them. it just seems like a cognitive disconnect to do one thing and then question it the next day. and really why are you two so regretful of a lynch on a person who you both mentioned multiple times being antitown in lylo. why is this alternative universe being used to scumpaint pringles.

anyway

-vote S-FM krabby person

for me

[S-FM punchy]

oh and dont forget that for whatever its worth: the confirmed infected wanted to use icecream as a jump target. mrmpht

[S-FM punchy]

It could, but it doesn't sit right that you've pushed (primarily, not saying I didn't help for the last one) not one, but two mislynches

That smells like fish, someone please tell me otherwise. You are not proven in any way, like, at all. Am I the only one that notices that pringles was the main contributor to both of the previous lynches?

S-FM Hammond Robotics Employee (5 [L-0]): S-FM Quetzalcoatl, S-FM pringles, S-FM Mutant BlueBerry69, IceCreamFan, S-FM punchy
S-FM MMXX (1 [L-4]): S-FM krabby person

you literally cannot say things like that when your alternative to a day one lynch was confirmed doc. mrmpht

[S-FM punchy]

oh votes arent even set up right shouldnt it be three mrmpht?

[naz]

oh my god fuck math
3 votes to hammer.

[naz]

Brb, gonna kill myself.

take me with u tbh

[S-FM punchy]

-vote S-FM krabby person

[S-FM pringles]

Thanks punchy, even if MMXX doesnt see reason at least I had a lot of fun playing this with you. You're MVP in my book <3

[S-FM punchy]

Thanks punchy, even if MMXX doesnt see reason at least I had a lot of fun playing this with you. You're MVP in my book <3

same mrmpht. you have been a joy to play with. i am confident we will win.

[S-FM Quetzalcoatl]

Confidence is not a scum tell

You're literally just making this shit up

Strong confidence, especially in such a setup, is definetly a scumtell, and I'm not the only one saying this. Scums know alignments, townies don't.

Sorry punchy, Im just fucking let down that I spent twho hours last night deconstructing the argument against me and pretzel discards it in one post and MMXX shows that their argument makes sense

Krabs, pretzel, mmxx. All they have to do is lazily vote for me. MMXX has no incentive to lynch correctly here or even try, even if we mislynch he gets infected and wins. So yeah Im pretty let down right now.

You're honestly making me feel bad for my perfectly valid argument on you lol. I will keep thinking. Convince me that Krabs is scum if you're town, though, because that's the alternative I see.

[S-FM Quetzalcoatl]

Thanks punchy, even if MMXX doesnt see reason at least I had a lot of fun playing this with you. You're MVP in my book <3

same mrmpht. you have been a joy to play with. i am confident we will win.

And whatever ends up happening, it has been a very fun game with you two. We can go through this together if we're all town.

TOWN TAKEOVER
TOWN TAKEOVER
TOWN TAKEOVER


I think I can go out of character now, we win or die on this hill anyway.

[S-FM pringles]

Strong confidence, especially in such a setup, is definetly a scumtell, and I'm not the only one saying this. Scums know alignments, townies don't.


You're honestly making me feel bad for my perfectly valid argument on you lol. I will keep thinking. Convince me that Krabs is scum if you're town, though, because that's the alternative I see.

ITS NOT VALID

YOU GIVE NO EVIDENCE TO YOUR NOW DECONSTRUCTED ARGUMENT

[S-FM pringles]

And whatever ends up happening, it has been a very fun game with you two. We can go through this together if we're all town.

TOWN TAKEOVER
TOWN TAKEOVER
TOWN TAKEOVER


I think I can go out of character now, we win or die on this hill anyway.

Yeah I've enjoyed playing with you too

Just frustrated today

And I still think youre scum over krabs.

[S-FM punchy]

Strong confidence, especially in such a setup, is definetly a scumtell, and I'm not the only one saying this. Scums know alignments, townies don't.


You're honestly making me feel bad for my perfectly valid argument on you lol. I will keep thinking. Convince me that Krabs is scum if you're town, though, because that's the alternative I see.

i pointed out quite a few things in my post. have you actually evaluated crab man over today and yesterday?

[S-FM pringles]

Strong confidence, especially in such a setup, is definetly a scumtell, and I'm not the only one saying this. Scums know alignments, townies don't.


You're honestly making me feel bad for my perfectly valid argument on you lol. I will keep thinking. Convince me that Krabs is scum if you're town, though, because that's the alternative I see.

And obviously this is also revisionist bullshit. Strong confidence in my reads? I have flip flopped on TONS of my reads

[S-FM pringles]

And obviously this is also revisionist bullshit. Strong confidence in my reads? I have flip flopped on TONS of my reads

And Ive expressed this several times, that I started townreading or doubting my scumreads

Have you even read this game?

[S-FM pringles]

"If you want me to back off of you, convince me to lynch krabs"

Such scummy bs

[S-FM krabby person]

ITS NOT VALID

YOU GIVE NO EVIDENCE TO YOUR NOW DECONSTRUCTED ARGUMENT

Looks like someone is backed a bit into a corner trying to disprove arguments, didn't we see this before?

Yeah I've enjoyed playing with you too

Just frustrated today

And I still think youre scum over krabs.

Get out with this, you just want me to move forward so you can easily persuade punchy that I'm scum over you, I see what you're doing now.

And obviously this is also revisionist bullshit. Strong confidence in my reads? I have flip flopped on TONS of my reads

You have, you're right, all of your reads except on Blueberry lead us off a cliff like a bunch of lemmings, so yes, you have.

Nobody would ever disguise me. Only a really dedicated player would

And why would someone say this? Like come on man, another scum tell right here.

Confidence is not a scum tell

You're literally just making this shit up

No, I completely agree with pretzel in this situation, you've been confident enough since the get go to the point where you quite literally are too townlike to be town, you've lead the town as though you know basically everyone's roles like I would expect from a scientist.

I've never worked so hard at a game and I swear if I'm mislynched for being a leader and being confident then whats the point of trying ever again. This is downright depressing.

You've made sure to discredit everything I've said so that I am not a part of the picture, this is why you want Pretzel lynched over me, I do not have as strong of a claim as he does, and you want him gone because of it.

let me preface this by being very clear. mrmpht. this lynch today from my perspective is pretzel and crab man but ill start with mmxx.

the primary reason mmxx striked me as a tpr is that they played with complete impunity up and curtness up until the end of day two. i usually mark these two characteristics as being scum or tpr related. this is the same confidence and recurring theme thats being brought up now but just against another player. while a lynch-train started gaining considerable momentum isod both players hre and mmxx at the time to see what made the most sense. hre was all over the place and mmxx instead doubled back to explain his side of things. its like i said day one. i think it is an important quality for town to be able to protect tpr roles through wifom but when that failed i didnt really have much of a choice other than to explicitly state how i read them. hre seemed infinitely more scummy than mmxx at the time a we proceeded towards day two.

with that im moving to mmxx headspace

Quote Originally Posted by S-FM MMXX View Post
Quetz raises some interesting points about pringles, and I've thought in a similar vein about how pringles has been town leader pretty much the whole game (the tldr is that I'm not decided yet). One comment on lining up lynches is that, unfortunately, lynches haven't been informative at all this game - they've just been "welp, this person isn't scientist."

For some reason, Quetz and Krabs occupy a similar spot in my head, even though they had very different starts to the game. This might be some self-centric thinking (both have scumread me and did not really move their reads on me following day 2/3, just using the doctor claim) plus their similar dips on day 3. Regardless, it is kind of disconcerting, as we have only one scum. It makes me wonder if pringles moved their read because they knew I was town.
people dont become a town leader unless there is largely a following or belief in that persons towniness. there was only one point this entire game where i feel pringles wasnt completely followed and that is when i advocated against mmxx being lynched. its because of this that i dont see why pringles is now suddenly a villain for doing what any town leader should be doing. for pretzel i think its apathy. for crab i think its scum paint.

those two have been like a big sitcom. a weird hate-love-sheep screenplay where pretzel says he hates crab. forgets about crab. gets sheeped by crab and then changes his lynch candidate. but i think pretzel has atleast offered reasons for his reads or was capable of fleshing them out. more specifically to crab man: you literally hammered on ice cream and didnt explain why.

Quote Originally Posted by S-FM krabby person View Post
I might be wrong here, and I genuinely hope i'm not for the sake of me bashing my head into a wall

-vote IceCreamFan

-vote S-FM pringles

That play from IceCream screams scum, he's done.
i understand the context of the situation but when you close the thread like this after trying to get the doctor lynched the same day you can see how it might a little suspicious. this vote was almost 100% in response to pringles and then you start the day off gunning for them. it just seems like a cognitive disconnect to do one thing and then question it the next day. and really why are you two so regretful of a lynch on a person who you both mentioned multiple times being antitown in lylo. why is this alternative universe being used to scumpaint pringles.

anyway
-vote S-FM krabby person
for me

Pringles has never been confirmed town, literally the only confirmed here is MM as doctor, if you believe I am scum painting, then you've had the curtains over your eyes too.

[S-FM krabby person]

And Ive expressed this several times, that I started townreading or doubting my scumreads

Have you even read this game?

You've started doubting them because you saw them as a larger threat than your current "scum" reads.

[S-FM pringles]

ffs

[S-FM krabby person]

I also kind of expect that if we do not find scientist today that it will be either Pretzel or Punchy as infected, as I am still an easy lynch with MM as immune assuming he vaccinates himself.

[S-FM pringles]

Its like everything I put together last night either wasnt reviewed, or was completely ignored.

-vote S-FM Quetzalcoatl

Whatever.

[S-FM pringles]

I also kind of expect that if we do not find scientist today that it will be either Pretzel or Punchy as infected, as I am still an easy lynch with MM as immune assuming he vaccinates himself.

Games over if we dont lynch scientist. You still dont get this.

[S-FM pringles]

"Hurr durr someones backed into a corner"

If Im mislynched, I lose. Town loses. I dont want that to happen

Fucking hell.

[S-FM krabby person]

Games over if we dont lynch scientist. You still dont get this.

It's only game over if we do not find infected right off the get go tomorrow, so you still have a 33% chance of waiting it out 2 more days and be in a 3v1 scenario, didn't account for that?

If we don't then yes, it is game over. Convince the rest of us that Pretzel is scum, and pretzel vice versa on whoever you were going for.

Literally everyone thinks that scum is someone different, me on pringles, pringles on pretzel, and pretzel/mm on someone else, with punchy on me.

[S-FM pringles]

It's only game over if we do not find infected right off the get go tomorrow, so you still have a 33% chance of waiting it out 2 more days and be in a 3v1 scenario, didn't account for that?

If we don't then yes, it is game over. Convince the rest of us that Pretzel is scum, and pretzel vice versa on whoever you were going for.

Literally everyone thinks that scum is someone different, me on pringles, pringles on pretzel, and pretzel/mm on someone else, with punchy on me.

No Krabs

Ita 4v1 rn. If we mislynch, 3v1. Then scientist infects MMXX, at start of night its 2v2

Its over

[S-FM krabby person]

No Krabs

Ita 4v1 rn. If we mislynch, 3v1. Then scientist infects MMXX, at start of night its 2v2

Its over

My bad for the mis type, yes it goes to 2v2, if doc finds the infected then it goes to 2v1 and we have one last chance from there.

[S-FM pringles]

It's only game over if we do not find infected right off the get go tomorrow, so you still have a 33% chance of waiting it out 2 more days and be in a 3v1 scenario, didn't account for that?

If we don't then yes, it is game over. Convince the rest of us that Pretzel is scum, and pretzel vice versa on whoever you were going for.

Literally everyone thinks that scum is someone different, me on pringles, pringles on pretzel, and pretzel/mm on someone else, with punchy on me.

CONVINCE YOU

I FUCKING SPENT 2 HOURS COMPILING MY ARGUMENT DID YOU READ IT

ITS IN A GIANT SPOILER TAG FFS

[S-FM pringles]

My bad for the mis type, yes it goes to 2v2, if doc finds the infected then it goes to 2v1 and we have one last chance from there.

What are you talking about? Of doc finds infected?? Doc will BE infected. Theres no reason for scientist to hit anyone else and doc.isnt infect immune

So MMXX is infected, 2v2 is kept, MMXX has 2 chances to jump to win 2v1. If he hits scientist then its 2v2 during the day, no way for town to win

[S-FM pringles]

"Convince me"

Me: compiles a giant ass post convincing

"Convince me brah, meanwhile Im going to make false claims about you using revisionist history with no evidence to back it up"

Unbelievable.

[S-FM krabby person]

What are you talking about? Of doc finds infected?? Doc will BE infected. Theres no reason for scientist to hit anyone else and doc.isnt infect immune

So MMXX is infected, 2v2 is kept, MMXX has 2 chances to jump to win 2v1. If he hits scientist then its 2v2 during the day, no way for town to win

Doc vaccinates, becomes immune first off.

Also poo poo on you. I didnt primarily push 2 mislynches. Acknowledge this you fishy krab.

I acknowledge I was wrong with Hammond, my apologies for that one

CONVINCE YOU

I FUCKING SPENT 2 HOURS COMPILING MY ARGUMENT DID YOU READ IT

ITS IN A GIANT SPOILER TAG FFS

I did, and I can understand most of the reasoning behind it, but look at it from my perspective for a second. I see you, one that absolutely hammered Icecream and forced a 20 hr early mislynch, and I see pretzel, who also hammered a mislynch on one of my strongest town reads of the entire bunch.

Both of you smell like rotten fish in my relatively inexperienced eyes. The only two constants in my mind are punchy and MM.

[S-FM krabby person]

"Convince me"

Me: compiles a giant ass post convincing

"Convince me brah, meanwhile Im going to make false claims about you using revisionist history with no evidence to back it up"

Unbelievable.

This is an uneeded shitpost

Do you agree on my constants in MM and punchy, yes or no?

[S-FM pringles]

Doc vaccinates, becomes immune first off.



I acknowledge I was wrong with Hammond, my apologies for that one



I did, and I can understand most of the reasoning behind it, but look at it from my perspective for a second. I see you, one that absolutely hammered Icecream and forced a 20 hr early mislynch, and I see pretzel, who also hammered a mislynch on one of my strongest town reads of the entire bunch.

Both of you smell like rotten fish in my relatively inexperienced eyes. The only two constants in my mind are punchy and MM.

I went after ice cream hard day 2 as well. Nobody would bite even though people like PRETZEL acknowledged that ice cream was a mistake to keep around.

And YOU hammered ice cream 20 hours early btw. You were under no obligation to hammer, but YOU hammered saying he was scummy, and "done"

Wtf is this revisionist bullshit?

[S-FM pringles]

This is an uneeded shitpost

Do you agree on my constants in MM and punchy, yes or no?

Good hell Ive been 100% transparent that I wont lynch either of them today

[S-FM pringles]

Also Krabs this is the way the game works since you cant seem to understand it

Doc vaccinates during night. But scoentist infects during day. Come nightfall, MMXX is no longer doc, hes infected. So he cant vaccinate

[S-FM Quetzalcoatl]

CONVINCE YOU

I FUCKING SPENT 2 HOURS COMPILING MY ARGUMENT DID YOU READ IT

ITS IN A GIANT SPOILER TAG FFS

Oh, I actually missed it lol! But to be honest, I am both giving my real thoughts on you and trying to see if you're honest in your reaction to my push. If you have been bullshitting the god of Wisdom all day long, you probably deserve this win ;). I will read your wallpost to make sure, but unless its content is actually scummy, my vote will go on Krabs. Sorry to make you rage

[S-FM krabby person]

I went after ice cream hard day 2 as well. Nobody would bite even though people like PRETZEL acknowledged that ice cream was a mistake to keep around.

And YOU hammered ice cream 20 hours early btw. You were under no obligation to hammer, but YOU hammered saying he was scummy, and "done"

Wtf is this revisionist bullshit?

You didn't answer the question, be straight for once ffs. I already responded that I hammered Ice cream, right after your thunderdome ended.