Witch Discussion

[illu]

Hi everyone.

I have some inputs on witch. Be warned, I am a little biased; I have never won a game with witch before despite playing the role many, many times.

Witch wins if town loses and witch is STILL ALIVE. This actually means the witch has to be alive when the MAFIA wins (or SK, I believe). As a support for the evil roles, the witch is highly effective; she can feed false information to towners or simply disable key roles similar to the consort. The issue here is that the mafia/SK can kill the witch, which frustrates me to no ends. Different from a survivor who can just claim from Day 1, the witch cannot do this for simple reasons. The witch also cannot kill, unlike SK/arsonist, to eliminate any targets you think is a threat to you.

My opinion is that the key to witch is to be able to determine the roles of the towners and use them effectively, or alternatively find the mafia/SK, pm them, and make sure they don't target the witch. Currently, the witch has to do two of the above while avoiding getting detected by towners in order to survive. This is extremely hard. Unless you are brilliant, the information you get as a witch derives from the public chat. Thus, if you know what someone is, EVERYONE KNOWS. For example if a doctor is known, it won't actually help the witch... because he is likely dead next round by the combination of mafia and SK.

Detecting doctors as witch is almost hopeless. Witch cannot gather intel, so the best scenario for the witch to get a doctor is:
1. a doctor is publicly known;
2. the mafia cannot target the doctor.
This is pretty hard. The only way this can happen is that a doctor is put on trial for suspicion of being an SK, but there is another doctor who can heal this doctor such that he won't be immediately killed by the mafia. Furthermore, the witch also has to take the chance that he might be an SK.

Detecting mafia or other killing roles is also hard, although this one depends on luck a bit more. Every night you can randomly control someone (A) and force him to act on someone else (B). When B dies, you can reasonably deduce that A is likely to be a killing role, unless 1. B was killed by someone else; or 2. B got bussed, in both scenarios you will lose the game if you pm A.

Furthermore, there is no guarantee pms can be used in the game, as this depends on game setting. Even if it can be used, because pms are public, it will draw suspicion to the witch as well as her allies.

I think perhaps one/some of the following changes will improve the witch to the level that it is playable. Currently I think it's much harder to win as witch than as SK or arsonist.

1. Regardless of game settings, allow the witch to send anonymous pm to anonymous receivers;
2. Night immunity as an option;
3. Can win without surviving until the end, perhaps with less rewards;
4. Investigator cannot detect the difference between survivor and witch;
5. When controlling a sheriff, investigator, or consigliere, the witch can learn the intel the victim gathered.

[wightsnow]

You have more than public chat to gather info, you have the effects of who you made to target who also. Additionally, investigator can already not tell the difference between survivor and witch. If the setting so that victims don't know they are being controlled are enabled, you can pretend survivor all day long as long as you don't do something obvious like make investigator target self 4 nights in a row.

[Zack]

Well, the witch should recieve perhaps a slight buff: Be told if the controlled target can perform a night action or not. Just that, simple, helpful, and not overpowered.

[Cheekything]

Maybe allow the witch to send a one way message to the mafia instead of using it's ability.
The message can also be read by spies so it could be a double edge sword.

[Zack]

Uhm, get it into your head... Witch is not with the mafia, witch is neutral.

Its funny how even in a game where only mafia, witch and sk remain alive, the witch tends to side with the mafia, despite the fact that winning with sk would earn her more points. It still doesn't seem clear enough to people that the witch is neutral, "must see town lose" does not equal "must see mafia win".

[Cheekything]

Witch is a very unneutral neutral.

Most Mafia will want to side with the Witch as it gives them the upper hand and the witch wants to do the same.

Also combined with the fact the mafia uses it's team knowledge together they also want to play together which is a tactic in favour of a Witch.

Now yes the witch can still win so long as the town loses but lets be fair a SK has no loyalty to the witch and is most likely to lynch or kill it after the town.

[Zack]

SK is normally alone, having a witch for an ally is something SK should really hope for, and winning with witch does not reduce his points. Its for the reason that SK is alone, and that its harder to win with SK than with mafia, that the witch should choose SK over mafia. Also, mafia often choose to kill the witch, since in the end they don't really need her. If i'm Witch I would prefer SK, infact even when i'm the last helpless townie caught between mafia and SK, and I have the power to decide who wins - I would help the SK over mafia. Thats how I would do it, but I guess I can't expect others to follow this example :P

Funny story, there was one game where I was positive that I was the last townie, and there was GF and SK left alive with me. They both voted for each other to lynch, and I was the deciding factor, I already figured out who is who and so I lynched the GF. Turns out the SK was actually really a doctor, and I just couldn't believe him because the doctor was dead and the real SK was janitored. Town won, heh, I was shocked.

Moral of the story is: Unless you are mafia yourself, don't side with the mafia unless you have no other choice :o

[The_Animus]

I've also never seen a game in which the witch won. My problem with witch is that it is largely a guessing game for which you never find out answer. You target people at night, and you can make a guess about the person you controlled based on what happened, but you can't be sure. Just because you controlled A and targeted B and B died doesn't mean anything at all. You can never know whether the person you manipulated has a power, or whether someone else just attacked/healed/role blocked that same person.

I think witch does need a slight buff.

5. When controlling a sheriff, investigator, or consigliere, the witch can learn the intel the victim gathered.

Well, the witch should recieve perhaps a slight buff: Be told if the controlled target can perform a night action or not. Just that, simple, helpful, and not overpowered.

Both of those are good potential changes.

[Mysterymeat]

Even thought witch is supposed to be "neutral" it is almost totally a mafia role. It cannot win with town so it has to side with another side, and most obivous is mafia. I do agree it needs a buff though. I agree with your idea to make witch immune at night. The other things might not work/make it op. Your first idea might work as well although I don't see how the third would work. So if turns into a role that can win without surviving, what's it's goal? 4 would make it op as town would have little chance of getting it if neither sheriff nor invest could tell for sure it's witch. 5 would be a little bit helpful for perhaps 1 night cause even if u know sheriff u don't want to use him to investigate cause that helps him too.

[CyanBlade]

wait, witch can side with the sk? i thought the sk's role was to kill everyone, and i'm pretty sure witches are included with everyone

[wightsnow]

wait, witch can side with the sk? i thought the sk's role was to kill everyone, and i'm pretty sure witches are included with everyone

The game initiates stalemate protocols when only 2 people are left alive. Witch can win with anyone that isn't town.

https://wiki.thecouncilofmages.com/in...le=Witch#Notes

[Deolrin]

If it's day and 3 people are left: Serial Killer, Witch and a Townie, and they lynch the townie, the game DOES NOT automatically end. They DON'T win immediately. As such, even if they talk with eachother and claim they won't do anything at night, either of them can still betray the other and win alone. This happened to me yesterday; My friend, who was on Skype, said he WILL kill the Witch because she'll probably betray him either way. I told him that he would be an asshole if he did that. Couldn't convince him either way.
And in the end, he was right; That god-damn stupid Witch betrayed him and made him kill himself.

Is there no way that DR can end the game immediately after the lynch? Because I'd love to see more SK\Witch combos winning.

[wightsnow]

If it's day and 3 people are left: Serial Killer, Witch and a Townie, and they lynch the townie, the game DOES NOT automatically end. They DON'T win immediately. As such, even if they talk with eachother and claim they won't do anything at night, either of them can still betray the other and win alone. This happened to me yesterday; My friend, who was on Skype, said he WILL kill the Witch because she'll probably betray him either way. I told him that he would be an asshole if he did that. Couldn't convince him either way.
And in the end, he was right; That god-damn stupid Witch betrayed him and made him kill himself.

Is there no way that DR can end the game immediately after the lynch? Because I'd love to see more SK\Witch combos winning.

Your friend is an idiot. The witch held all the cards in that situation, so attempting to attack the witch didn't give him an advantage in any way.

[MrSmarter]

I had a strange game the other day. I was a blackmailer/Mafioso, all the other maifa were dead, and there was a witch, townie, and me left. I claimed mafia and tried to side with the witch, and the witch vote to lynch me. I died and the witch won. So witch gets win over town when 1v1 between town and witch. It was a very interesting game to say the least.

[Deolrin]

If it's day and 3 people are left: Serial Killer, Witch and a Townie, and they lynch the townie, the game DOES NOT automatically end. They DON'T win immediately. As such, even if they talk with eachother and claim they won't do anything at night, either of them can still betray the other and win alone. This happened to me yesterday; My friend, who was on Skype, said he WILL kill the Witch because she'll probably betray him either way. I told him that he would be an asshole if he did that. Couldn't convince him either way.
And in the end, he was right; That god-damn stupid Witch betrayed him and made him kill himself.

Is there no way that DR can end the game immediately after the lynch? Because I'd love to see more SK\Witch combos winning.

Your friend is an idiot. The witch held all the cards in that situation, so attempting to attack the witch didn't give him an advantage in any way.

What do you mean by that?
If he did nothing, she's just kill him.
If SHE did nothing, he'd just kill her at night and win alone.

The point being, he believed that Witches and Serial Killers DON'T win together, exactly BECAUSE the game didn't end immediately after the lynch. He thought that the Witch would've won the 1v1, and even if not, it was too much of a risk to take.

[Lysergic]

What do you mean by that?
If he did nothing, she's just kill him.
If SHE did nothing, he'd just kill her at night and win alone.

If he did nothing, she COULD kill him.

If SHE did nothing, he could also do nothing and BOTH would win.

If she did ANYTHING, he would die.

Thus, she holds all the cards; whether or not the SK wins is totally up to the witch at that point. Targeting her is pointless; if she did nothing and he killed her, he'd be an asshole. xD

[wightsnow]

What do you mean by that?
If he did nothing, she's just kill him.
If SHE did nothing, he'd just kill her at night and win alone.

If he did nothing, she COULD kill him.

If SHE did nothing, he could also do nothing and BOTH would win.

If she did ANYTHING, he would die.

Thus, she holds all the cards; whether or not the SK wins is totally up to the witch at that point. Targeting her is pointless; if she did nothing and he killed her, he'd be an asshole. xD

This.

[Deolrin]

If SHE did nothing, he could also do nothing and BOTH would win.

Well that's the part he didn't realize. He got confused because there was another night. He thought Witches in 1v1 over SKs, rather than win the game together.

[CyanBlade]

this makes me sad the other day i was actaully in a game, one town one sk and me the witch, i killed the sk thinking he would kill me

[Dark.Revenant]

The thing is, the SK wants to be the sole survivor. The Witch does not normally win with the SK, you have to metagame to accomplish that.

[Zack]

Can the witch control someone without specifying a target, aka role-block? I never tried that, just wondering.

[Dark.Revenant]

Both a control and a target must be set. The Witch is a swiss army knife but doesn't have every ability in the game...

[Zack]

Thought so, and makes sense ;)

So the witch pretty much has no other choice but to kill the SK in a 1v1 situation, unless he is immune at night and will survive.

[tearshed]

Yeah I tried to control an SK but didn't force him to choose a target, hopefully roleblocking him. Didn't work, I got killed.

[Fate]

It is possible to win with Witch. When I played Witch the first time, I won. It does take some lies and thinking. I have been suspected of being mafia, but once you give a "reasonable" lie, they wont think twice. Also, I won as witch when there were only 1 townie left. (Vigi with 0 shot)

[Chaoseffigy]

What's bullshit is that I get 22 points when as witch I'm last person standing. When any derp can win with arsonist/SK half asleep and gets 35.

[wightsnow]

What's bullshit is that I get 22 points when as witch I'm last person standing. When any derp can win with arsonist/SK half asleep and gets 35.

lol, wut? What settings do you have for the arsonist/SK?

[Carrein]

I would like to see a small change to the Witch Role:

Witches are normally killed by burning at the stakes, so allow witches to be killed by fire ^^

That ánd

A witch can *escape* a lynch once with her magic and the following night she can turn someone into a toad (e.g. block them) for 3 rounds. If the toad dies or the game ends before 3 rounds are over, the witch wins.


This would help witches a lot more. It's not really an evil role then, just a role that looks out for itself (retargetting mafia/sk to someone else, getting doctor to heal you ...) this way, witches should be more independant.

[Zack]

Maybe not escape, but it does make sense that a witch will seek vengeance when lynched, like a final curse upon the town.

So here's a few thoughts about what would happen when a witch is lynched:

1. All power roles, town, mafia and neutral alike will target themselves if they attempt to use their abilities the night following the lynch.

2. The witch will get to command a final action after the lynch that will happen at night, control one person to target another that is, or himself.

3. Random guilty voter dies, like Jester, except its more of a revenge thing as the Witch loses the game regardless.

4. All guilty voters are role-blocked the night following the lynch.


This is a nice buff to the witch, to scare the town and mafia alike from lynching her without thought. And also makes the mafia think twice before crossing the witch.

Still, this is optional, and if its too complicated to add then better skip it.

[wightsnow]

Maybe not escape, but it does make sense that a witch will seek vengeance when lynched, like a final curse upon the town.

So here's a few thoughts about what would happen when a witch is lynched:

1. All power roles, town, mafia and neutral alike will target themselves if they attempt to use their abilities the night following the lynch.

2. The witch will get to command a final action after the lynch that will happen at night, control one person to target another that is, or himself.

3. Random guilty voter dies, like Jester, except its more of a revenge thing as the Witch loses the game regardless.

4. All guilty voters are role-blocked the night following the lynch.


This is a nice buff to the witch, to scare the town and mafia alike from lynching her without thought. And also makes the mafia think twice before crossing the witch.

Still, this is optional, and if its too complicated to add then better skip it.

The Town shouldn't be punished for successfully finding a Witch. What's more of a problem is having the Mafia randomly kill her at night.

[Zack]

You need to see the intention behind this, the punishment is more geared towards those who were expected to keep the witch alive, mafia and neutral killers that is. The town does not have that many killers, only the Vigilante is an actual killing role, the Jailor won't kill himself in case the 1st punishment is the one implemented. Infact the 1st punishment actually gives a night without killings following the witch's lynch, this is in a way a reward for the town.

The 2nd option is also a helpful for the town choice, because if the witch is lynched who do you think she'l be more angry with? The town who found her by chance or the mafia who didn't help her out?

[wightsnow]

Infact the 1st punishment actually gives a night without killings following the witch's lynch, this is in a way a reward for the town.

Situational, the town also doesn't get any new information.

The 2nd option is also a helpful for the town choice, because if the witch is lynched who do you think she'l be more angry with? The town who found her by chance or the mafia who didn't help her out?

Not every witch gets angry. The witch doesn't need that kind of buff.

The third option can allow Mafia 2 kills on the Town in a crucial time if played well (last minute vote cancel which will become rampent if it's implemented).

The fourth option stops the Town from getting any new info unless an investigating role chooses not to vote which might give Mafia majority right there.

This is not something the witch needs. Being found at night is the frustrating part (which every role has to deal with), being lynch is getting outplayed.

[Zack]

I was suggesting this more due to a sense-making element, not because its actually needed, heh.

Infact the main reason is probably to prevent mafia from lynching the witch who helped them at the end game. Reason being they can't get her at night if she knows who their killer is, cus she can control who they kill.

This is pretty much a backstab protection for the witch, heh.

[FalseTruth]

Maybe DR could add an "invulnerable at night to mafia only" option for the witch, to avoid backstabbing. The mafia still isn't guaranteed not to lynch the witch because she could still be SK/Arson, but at least she won't die at night.

[Clawtrocity]

In games of SC2 Mafia you can get a bit reckless and if a witch turns on Mafia and makes them kills themselves then they can risk losing the game by lynching the witch just to hopefully make sure that the next the person is in that situation he doesn't screw with the Mafia kind of thing. Seems like something the Mafia would do.

Same thing vice versa if the Mafia kill the witch the witch can use his will to say who he was controlling to do the killing maybe.

[Yuki]

Why is it when I targeted a disguiser to kill someone and steal their identity it never happened? The disguiser ended up killing me the next day

[Dark.Revenant]

It's quite possible that either he was bussed with someone else or he was roleblocked.

[Carrein]

I had a little mind-tickle just now...


It's hard to win as witch right, because you're all alone...


Well how about: a random lyncher will be given the Mark of the Witch. If not healed in 2 days he will become the new witch, fighting for the previous' cause.

[Yuki]

That will just get the sheriff/invest killed and let mafia win

[Deathfire123]

Well, I just saw a witch win by himself.... sort of, The witch figured out a godfather, killed all of the other mafia members using the godfather, was able to keep suspicion off of the godfather until the last trial in which the town sided with the witch to lynch the mafia member.... and then you got the witch win picture, which is almost as rare as a survivor win picture..... I'm just saying, witch is hard to win with, but once you figure out a mafia members role, it is really op....

[Nick]

Well, I just saw a witch win by himself.... sort of, The witch figured out a godfather, killed all of the other mafia members using the godfather, was able to keep suspicion off of the godfather until the last trial in which the town sided with the witch to lynch the mafia member.... and then you got the witch win picture, which is almost as rare as a survivor win picture..... I'm just saying, witch is hard to win with, but once you figure out a mafia members role, it is really op....

Seen this too. Is indeed funny. Seeing mafia betrayed.

By the way, witch can also claim being SURVIVOR and act like a JESTER. Mafia won't be bothered to lynch you. Town too afraid to lynch you. Most likely they won't investigate you. But be careful of Vigs. They always welcome targets for shooting practice. This strategy only works if people won't know they are controlled or you don't use your ability.

Important! CHECK HELP before you claim survivor. Some host exclude benign roles from Random Neutral.

[SinKingston]

Man. I'm tired of playing with trolls/retards, can we setup like a group mafia game going without trolls/retards?

I was playing witch today and I used the escort to block inves constantly while the mafia chopped down one by one. Then when it came to a 4v4 situation, I revealed to them i was the witch and told mafia to not kill me. Then it goes down to a 3 mafia, 1 witch, 1 town situation and the mafia kills me overnight.. Really.. I just got used and helped them win pretty much and then they turn around and kills me. FFUUU

[Zack]

Kingston, its your fault. Don't side with the mafia, follow the witch's win condition. The Witch sides with herself, nobody else. As Witch, always aim to win alone if possible, yes this means make mafia kill themselves too. You get more points if you win alone.

My best game as witch was when I found out the mafia killer and the SK, and controlled them to kill whoever I wanted, luckily they never targeted me. In the end it was me, mafioso, sk and a spy. We lynched the spy, who thought I was the mafia and the mafia was witch. So the mafioso asked me to make sk kill himself, the sk thought i'm mafia, so I made sk kill mafioso, and the mafioso voluntarily targeted SK. I won alone

[Deathfire123]

Yeah, don't reveal your a witch if you have been controlling the godfather/mafioso, they will most likely be pissed and kill you instead.

[Nick]

So the mafioso asked me to make sk kill himself, the sk thought i'm mafia, so I made sk kill mafioso, and the mafioso voluntarily targeted SK. I won alone

One of the reasons why mafia never trust witches, and want them dead...