Since Exeter has got off, my vote changes on-vote renegade, for lying and accusating me of hiring people to lie for me. I claim Sheriff. I am here to find the bad apples in the clan and the assholes framing us and to kick/report them. Get renegade, he's mafioso! If I'm right get Efekann after, it'll mean he's the Godfather.
Is this what it's like to play Forum Mafia? 13 pages of circular arguments over a short period of time? jeez that took a long time to read!
I think underneath all of the flaming and name-calling that both sides made good points.
On the anti-choo side:
Some of the Choos definitely took the role-playing too far in the past. I would agree that not just the spamming occurred, but there were definitely times when Choo players allied with each other because of their names (meta-trusting as you say) and led completely spam-filled lynch trains on people they didn't like. Notably, this behavior usually was only in the first couple days of the game and if someone actually had a good lead on one of them the others would follow it, though they would make every effort to inno if there was any defense. I think this definitely at times went beyond simple "Meta-Trusting" because it was NOT just judging whether somebody is good or evil based on ur knowledge of their playstyle. It was instead a blind commitment to vote with somebody else because of their name.
On the choo side:
As they have said, hacker was generally the biggest culprit of this stuff, though it was originally all started by Scv. Since hacker was banned I would agree they have definitely stopped doing much of anything besides that harmless D1 spam. I noticed in a recent game I played where there were several "THE LYNCH TRAIN" names, Scv himself barely spoke and didn't even participate in the D1 spam that the other members did. He definitely seems to be taking the Keeper role seriously.
I definitely see where renegade is coming from that it seems like Hacker is being completely scapegoated for all past transgressions. Just because he may have led other choos to start acting shitty, doesn't mean those people should go unpunished. That being said, if nobody filed any reports from those games, then you cannot really complain about a lack of punishments. Punishments are given based on reports, not on your general opinion of somebody over time.
I also see where Marshmellow is coming from in saying that Choo has changed and he and scv are removing any bad apples they find from now on; however, as Marshmellow himself mentioned, this has only occurred in the last couple of weeks. As a result, it is silly to expect people who developed a hatred for the Choo clan over the course of months to suddenly change their opinion based on a recent development. It takes time for opinions to change and Renegade himself noted in an earlier post that he played a couple games with you guys and didn't see any more trolling.
TLDR: I think as 2 people who care so much that you've written 13 pages of posts on this topic, you'll actually like each other if you shut up and go back to playing the game.
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?
True, but it's also silly to ban everyone from CHOOOO without letting us any time to prove ourselves. Also you're right, if we were all to play the game correctly there would be no problem. But when people fake being choooos to frame us, there is no hope for such a thing.
Also yes, the beyond-meta-trust did happen in the very early days of the clan. This period is over, due to the legit players and Scv himself, who stopped that before it became a plague for everyone.
And this is obviously NOT a real FM game, it's a big joke from SJ lol. A funny one actually don't think FM is like that for real, it'd be really false.
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?
.... you think we hired someone... and called in that many people with biases... really? There ARE fake choos going around spamming, pay closer attention to the players. You are currently trying to get rid of something for things that 1:weren't 100% accurate and 2:aren't there at all now anyways. Now you are attacking some of the choos, like me, that go around and tone some lynch trains down a bit. "A HIRED GUN" REALLY? stop, think about how ridiculous you sound.
Renegade, your post has a few issues there: Notice it says in the past. That stopped, we cleared that up. It also says some. the rest of your claim is still not supported by that paragraph.
this thread belongs to the ongoing forum mafia games i got a op role here
I Like Ice Cream
Coming from someone who should change his profile picture to a [citation needed] bracket from wikipedia.
https://imgur.com/a/iv91O
Also, to whoever baselessly accused me of playing with Efe on EU, please come out of the woodwork with a provided replay and my SCID and I'll come out with my own. You're absolutely bullshitting everyone and spreading false accusations, it's not helping your case by any stretch. Consider this a challenge to any Choo or Skwirl or any sort of clan member. I have 6 replays of me playing on mafia in the last year. They're all on NA and they're all between december and now. Find a magical seventh and please prove me wrong, or just shut the fuck up because you don't know what you're saying.
I'll make my argument clear here so that you can't quote me incorrectly even though some asshole continues to do so (aka on discord, fuck you in particular)
Choo is toxic for the community. Using meta-trust as a way to read players in an anonymous game is flawed inherently (note the word anonymous) and anyone who continues to do this in games on a regular basis doesn't get the point of playing the game. The game is deception. That's why it's played anonymously. Picking the same name every game is something I disagree with but realistically can't be enforced.
Nowhere did I state that all choo players are rule breakers or even bad people. If for some reason I did say this, let it be known right now that I officially rescend that opinion. It's incorrect and sums up people into one general category. It's like saying that all ToS players are retards. Neither argument holds water. This is called a hasty generalization and is a logical fallacy, which, to further support this assertion, is actually punishable under forum mafia rules. The concept of a group of players playing together is acceptable, but the extent that choo goes to is absolute bullshit. Other players don't have the same information as choo members in order to form these meta-trusts inside games and, as such, cannot enforce them.
The choo fanaticism is also unhealthy. I provided a replay of Scv spamming and showing preference to choo members from december but fortunately I haven't played a game with him since and don't have any other recent replays. However in the imgur link I posted earlier, I showed quotes of him saying, and I quote, "The CHOO army cannot be stopped now". I won't dig deep into this post now because any conclusions drawn from it are completely subjective, but in my opinion it shows that he believes all players should be in a clan such as choo or skwirl, which is, again in my opinion, not a good way to play.
If it were up to me, showing meta-trusts and rampant spamming, particularly from a player who has colored names, should be considered punishable in order to help clean the community. Scv has no business being a mod, but neither do I. Neither of us have the credibility to do something like that and especially someone with a dodgy background like Scv. These examples of Scv showing choo favoritism mean that something will clearly go awry in grading a report and it's only a matter of time.
Ok I believe you ain't a dumbfuck that would like about this, so both camps are using non legit methods and lies in order to take ascendant on the other. So whoever is spreading lies, stop it because it's... lies.
Edit: excuse me for editing my post, but I wanna say SB16 gains townpoints for his post. He's being honest and he really thinks what he says. It's not everyone's case, I think. renegade.
Wow would you look at that.
CHOOO clan truly can't be stopped because moderators and admins have fully endorsed SCVmurderer and his behavior, even so much as letting him stay on staff, while he facilitates and encourages his underlings to gang up in lobbies, spam, grief, and coordinate despite what roles they get.
If anyone wishes to complain about staffing, post them in the answer hall.
Otherwise, your voice isn't heard.
If you have games that are constantly being destroyed, report it every time.
Sometimes one or two replays are not enough.
But when you have dozens from different sources, word picks up.
If you don't like meta trust/distrust then host a game and remove custom names. Now for changes that I would suggest to the game, remove colored text chat for in game chat, place a 15 second mute on anyone who hits the message sent cap OR lower the message sent cap to 1 message per 3-5 seconds.
I personally would like custom names to be permanently removed but that is just me and people like their custom names so just disable it if you host. Both of those changes would fix the issue.
If you find Choo members or hell anyone still working together in a suspicious manner then I would then report it as there is a much higher chance they are skyping/using out of game communication to cheat.
A whole clan doesn't have to be banned unless multiple reports on multiple members are found valid then I would suggest a leave the clan or get banned final resolution but again I don't see this being needed.
The chat cap would have to be balanced out, I can pull numbers out of my ass but it doesnt mean it would work :P
Something to take into consideration here @renegade : Mafia is in need for staff members. Right now there are 3 staff members, nighthawk, Rumox, and now SCV. The game was getting overwhelmed with reports and starting to fall waaay behind on punishing players. SCV stepped forward to give his time to help go through these reports, as well as keep the game clean. He has been removing toxic people from his clan as well as keeping his chat spam to D1. You need to let go of the personal grudge, of the "scapegoating" hacker and understand that what he is doing to help the game is DESPERATELY NEEDED right now. Please @renegade fill out a keeper application and dedicate hours of your time to filing reports and helping moderate the game in the background. If not, stop laying into the staff here for accepting some1 and giving them a chance, whom a few months ago was in the clan sc2maf, and who has been playing mafia for years. We are a group of people trying to keep a game alive - If you are in that group than you should easily understand why giving scv and choooo a chance to "drain the swamp" is a much better idea than just laying into them all and punishing them for spam that happened months ago. The benefits of SCV cleaning up his clan, and helping the staff here FAR FAR FAR outweigh him getting a 4x watchlist for spamming.
I will say this again - If you really want to push this then please step into the keeper spot so you can see how much work and time the staff members are currently devoting to going through all the reports and crap that pile in.
Last edited by Distorted; February 18th, 2018 at 09:37 PM.
My post advocates getting the culprits to stop their disruptive behaviour on their own accord, not a ban. Partially, this is because many of their actions are harmful but aren't actually breaking any rules, so reports may not necessarily result in a ban.
I think this problem can only be solved if the culprits WANT to solve it. Like Gastric Penguin and other big problems that we've had in this community. If he hadn't stopped, there was nothing any of us could've done about him.
The resolution wouldn't involve 200 people either. The average clan member doesn't give a hoot about any of the inter-clan drama and clan identity. In this thread itself, see how @renegade joined EfeM without even knowing what it stood for.
Within these mega clans, it's usually just the ringleaders and their posses that cause all the trouble. So it's only these small groups that need to stop certain behaviours.
Ayy lmao.
Chill with the personal attacks fam.
Spoiler : @aamirus Quote: :
^ Precisely.
Spoiler : @Stealthbomber16 Quote: :
^ This, absolutely.
Not feasible. Such a save will be likely to be repicked or result in a leave train, then it's back to regular saves with custom names.
Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.
[mod]Keep thread clean, stop shitposting here, go in CJO.[/mod]
You can ban? Wow. About fake CHOOOs i agere, they just parody hacker, ok...
Legit shitvoting, just you vote because he's choo?
This thread is full of shitposts and thrash.
[mod]Keep thread clean, stop shitposting here, go in CJO.[/mod]
Last edited by Arsonist; February 18th, 2018 at 09:49 PM.
[SIGPIC]Why you hold cursor on my signature picture?[/SIGPIC] A very annoying SC2Mafia player.
RIGHT HERE - this is exactly what I am getting at with my previous post. This is exactly what happened though. SCV stopped the behavior, also is removing it from his clan and instead, stepped in to help the staff keep the game clean. I am 100% for giving that a shot rather than the 4x watchlist and watching it continue. I have not been able to get a choooo replay SINCE hacker was removed, so from what I see, it is working.
-vote renegade
Would like a response.
Last edited by Arsonist; February 18th, 2018 at 09:53 PM.
[SIGPIC]Why you hold cursor on my signature picture?[/SIGPIC] A very annoying SC2Mafia player.
Which is what I wanted to say, but couldn't find words to do it. Thanks Distorted. By the way, since we just played together, stop banning people because of their clans. It just makes more and more grudges, vendettas and lowers the quality of the game. I think you are just terribly done with trolls in general, and CHOOOO gave you a name to put on all the trolling. But we are not trolls. Please at least consider that the clan itself is not wrong, only some past actions that will not be reitered.
[SIGPIC]Why you hold cursor on my signature picture?[/SIGPIC] A very annoying SC2Mafia player.
So I think all the views have been expressed and I think the reasoning behind everything has been laid out sufficiently. I really can not see this thread being able to go any further in a productive manner since it is already starting to turn into personal attacks. The choice to allow a chance for choooo to drain the swamps and scv to step in to dedicate hours of his time to the game to help keep it clean has been made. Anyone who can see the bigger picture here understands this is a much better alternative then a constant war and bans/watchlists happening over just some spam, that has now stopped. (please provide replays of anything happening from here on out because it WILL be dealt with in a serious manner).
I think we can vote to have this thread closed though due to where the direction is going. All useful info has been said, opinions expressed, and now attacks being made.
Vote superjack to close this thread.
-vote superjack
And I would prefer to not close this thread until either @renegade or @Exeter350 vote to have it closed as well; because i want it to be a mutual decision, whether it is agreed upon or not, at least knowing and understanding the decisions.
Last edited by Distorted; February 18th, 2018 at 11:37 PM.
Because the thread name only mentions the CHOOO clan, yes, I got nothing more to add.
There are other clans and other similar problems in the community. However, that'll be going off-topic if I raise them here.
Tbh, regarding CHOOO, I did have an issue with the spam, but I haven't seen it in a while. I just wanted to hash it out in black and white, and in public, so that we can fall back on this thread if the issue ever arises again.
The problem with CHOOO was primarily the spam. As far as I know, the other problems regarding the mega clans that were raised in this thread don't really apply to them, such as meta trust and name-related issues.
-vote SuperJackActually I'm not a fan of thread locks, I'd rather leave this thread open for other people to further discuss. I'm done tho.
Last edited by Exeter350; February 18th, 2018 at 10:33 PM.
Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.
Ok, this thread can be still useful, so unvote the SuperJack, we can keep it for futher discussions about <CHOOO>. You can just leave no replies to thread, let's make the thread clean! Post here only serious stuff, ok?
-unvote
This thread is used only for reports to <CHOOO>, when they do bad stuff in
You really gonna reply me? Wow.
Last edited by Arsonist; February 19th, 2018 at 06:41 AM.
[SIGPIC]Why you hold cursor on my signature picture?[/SIGPIC] A very annoying SC2Mafia player.
I semi-recently joined CHOOOO after playing a fun game with them and not really knowing anyone in there, but I think the most disturbing thing is how people started treating me in lobbies, whether telling me that I/my clan is trash, or just outright kicking me from the lobby. If anyone has played with me they probably know I don't spam at all and I just play the game, yet it's funny that the people who have an ax to grind with CHOOOO over certain members behavior are also the same ones being really rude to people who have done nothing wrong. It's hard to play martyr when you're also feeding negativity in the community.
Saying my clan and I need to go kill ourselves isn't productive for anyone. I get that CHOOOO isn't perfect and you may find them annoying at times, but get off the cross, we need the wood.
So what you're saying is that if individual members break rules or throw games, you (as clan leader/officer/whatever) will not punish or remove them from your clan? iF that is the case, how do you not expect people to look poorly on the clan for harboring people who do that?
Unfortunately, optics are the most important thing when people make judgements. If members of your clan are violating rules, and they aren't punished or removed from the clan or what have you...then that LOOKS to people like you are all in it together. So its not unreasonable for people to lump all of you together.
This is one of the many reasons I do not join any clans on sc2, because the actions of a few or maybe even like 1, can taint the image of everyone with that moniker. Unfortunately it is human behavior to make snap judgements about a whole group based on the actions of a few.
I suggest, you as clan responsible person and now sc2mafia staff? Why arent you green? Take more of a firm action against rule breakers
*yes insert here irony of the fm rule breaker lecturing people on holding others accountable blah blah blah*
If nothing else I know people have been kicked for spam/rule breaking/what have you, and I know it says right in the clan announcements not to spam beyond D1 or you'll be kicked.
Either way it's a self-feeding cycle. When you get randomly kicked from lobbies the reaction is to be defensive/upset which leads to more confrontation and more bad feelings. Either way it's just SC2Mafia, let's all just relax and have fun or something like that.
*sigh* You are all mafia players, some identify with a clan. Some people will troll while they are in their clan, the whole clan should not be held responsible, if it is actually the officers and leaders then yes the clan should be disbanded but that doesn't seem to be true in this case.
NOTE:I have not played SC2 mafia and I do intend to as soon as I can get a PC that can run things other than discord and google chrome.
"I don't take advice from people less successful than me"
~Kanye West