spy

[regardzz]

whats your oppinion on spies, guys? this is like 3rd game in a row i get to play spy, and i am pretty much completely useless, mafia at the start of the game says NO NAMES and just talks random shit... IMHO spy needs some changes.. of course sometimes there is these dumb guys in mafia who tell little too much, but how often does that happen? 1 game from 100?

[North Star]

I agree, they are as bad as a citizen... and when one Mafia person do mess up, I completely ignore what the spy has to say, because they are completely useless after that... maybe they could get a buff that allows them to talk to someone at night like the jailor...

[Dark.Revenant]

they are as bad as a citizen

:

Oh dear, another one of these.

The Spy, by existing, causes the Mafia to lose its strategy-making abilities. The Spy makes the Mafia sweat bullets, seriously.

[oops_ur_dead]

The Spy is OP.

Shut up.

[Logante]

The Spy is a Spy!

Seriously though, Spy pretty much shuts down communication of the Mafia, unless they are adept at sending code words to each other...but if they are that organized, they are probably skyping, anyhow. XD

[Lysergic]

The Spy is my favorite role, and one of the most powerful in the game. Like others have pointed out, just by existing (even if there isn't a confirmed Spy in game), the Mafia will lose its ability to strategize. Additionally, if you're playing with Masons in a setup, and Spy has the ability to hear Masons, the Spy can subtly clue the Masons to who he is. That's an immediate 3+ confirmed town.

If you get a Spy via Random Town or Random Any, there is a good chance the Mafia will give themselves away via chat. If you don't reveal for a long time, and there is someone that the Mafia is accusing during the day, they will probably talk about that person at night, proving that an innocent townie is being setup for a lynch.

The Masons thing is by far the most powerful far of Spy though. I remember my favorite Spy moment was when I saw the Masons talking at night, and as soon as it was day repeated the first couple things they said to each other. To everyone else, it sounded like random babbling. To the Masons, however, I was revealed as Spy. Eventually, we all revealed to the invest and saved him 3 nights of useless investigations. Needless to say, the town won.

And I can't tell you how many times I've waited till day 3-4 to reveal, and by then collected the names of everyone in the Mafia.

It's amazing how after a couple days of no one revealing as Spy, the Mafia will tend to assume that there isn't a spy in the game.

[regardzz]

The Spy is my favorite role, and one of the most powerful in the game. Like others have pointed out, just by existing (even if there isn't a confirmed Spy in game), the Mafia will lose its ability to strategize. Additionally, if you're playing with Masons in a setup, and Spy has the ability to hear Masons, the Spy can subtly clue the Masons to who he is. That's an immediate 3+ confirmed town.

If you get a Spy via Random Town or Random Any, there is a good chance the Mafia will give themselves away via chat. If you don't reveal for a long time, and there is someone that the Mafia is accusing during the day, they will probably talk about that person at night, proving that an innocent townie is being setup for a lynch.

The Masons thing is by far the most powerful far of Spy though. I remember my favorite Spy moment was when I saw the Masons talking at night, and as soon as it was day repeated the first couple things they said to each other. To everyone else, it sounded like random babbling. To the Masons, however, I was revealed as Spy. Eventually, we all revealed to the invest and saved him 3 nights of useless investigations. Needless to say, the town won.

And I can't tell you how many times I've waited till day 3-4 to reveal, and by then collected the names of everyone in the Mafia.

It's amazing how after a couple days of no one revealing as Spy, the Mafia will tend to assume that there isn't a spy in the game.

i dont know in what server you play, but i have NEVER EVER met such a dumb mafia who says their names LOL why would you even do that..

[Logante]

The Spy is my favorite role, and one of the most powerful in the game. Like others have pointed out, just by existing (even if there isn't a confirmed Spy in game), the Mafia will lose its ability to strategize. Additionally, if you're playing with Masons in a setup, and Spy has the ability to hear Masons, the Spy can subtly clue the Masons to who he is. That's an immediate 3+ confirmed town.

If you get a Spy via Random Town or Random Any, there is a good chance the Mafia will give themselves away via chat. If you don't reveal for a long time, and there is someone that the Mafia is accusing during the day, they will probably talk about that person at night, proving that an innocent townie is being setup for a lynch.

The Masons thing is by far the most powerful far of Spy though. I remember my favorite Spy moment was when I saw the Masons talking at night, and as soon as it was day repeated the first couple things they said to each other. To everyone else, it sounded like random babbling. To the Masons, however, I was revealed as Spy. Eventually, we all revealed to the invest and saved him 3 nights of useless investigations. Needless to say, the town won.

And I can't tell you how many times I've waited till day 3-4 to reveal, and by then collected the names of everyone in the Mafia.

It's amazing how after a couple days of no one revealing as Spy, the Mafia will tend to assume that there isn't a spy in the game.

i dont know in what server you play, but i have NEVER EVER met such a dumb mafia who says their names LOL why would you even do that..

Here's a good reason.

Night #1
"Let's kill <insert Mafia name here>"
That night, don't kill anyone as Mafia
Night #2
"He didn't die. Probably a doctor healing. Consig, any ideas?"

Spy automatically assumes that the target (actually a fellow Mafia member) is a townie.

[Deolrin]

There's a function to let the spy see the mafia's final kill target. If they didn't attack anyone, he'll obviously be on to something here.

[TheJackofSpades]

The Spy is a Spy!

Seriously though, Spy pretty much shuts down communication of the Mafia, unless they are adept at sending code words to each other...but if they are that organized, they are probably skyping, anyhow. XD

With PM on, i'd say it's theoretically possible to set up a code system to use at night during the day while keeping it anonymous to the spy himself. But a code system like that would be a pretty big calling sign if used in multiple games.

[oops_ur_dead]

The Spy is a Spy!

Seriously though, Spy pretty much shuts down communication of the Mafia, unless they are adept at sending code words to each other...but if they are that organized, they are probably skyping, anyhow. XD

With PM on, i'd say it's theoretically possible to set up a code system to use at night during the day while keeping it anonymous to the spy himself. But a code system like that would be a pretty big calling sign if used in multiple games.

With PM on, you could just talk to eachother without using the night chat.

[ClanMafia_Cadillac]

Even if you're not gathering much information, you know the Mafia aren't communicating with each other to their fullest extent; thus denying them the privilege of saying whatever they want at night. Also the off-chance that the Mafia accidentally blurt something key, you can use that against them with your last will to help out your affiliation.

Whenever I'm a Mafia member, I always tell my fellow teammates to watch their words as there may be a potential Spy eavesdropping on us.

[Lysergic]

The Spy is my favorite role, and one of the most powerful in the game. Like others have pointed out, just by existing (even if there isn't a confirmed Spy in game), the Mafia will lose its ability to strategize. Additionally, if you're playing with Masons in a setup, and Spy has the ability to hear Masons, the Spy can subtly clue the Masons to who he is. That's an immediate 3+ confirmed town.

If you get a Spy via Random Town or Random Any, there is a good chance the Mafia will give themselves away via chat. If you don't reveal for a long time, and there is someone that the Mafia is accusing during the day, they will probably talk about that person at night, proving that an innocent townie is being setup for a lynch.

The Masons thing is by far the most powerful far of Spy though. I remember my favorite Spy moment was when I saw the Masons talking at night, and as soon as it was day repeated the first couple things they said to each other. To everyone else, it sounded like random babbling. To the Masons, however, I was revealed as Spy. Eventually, we all revealed to the invest and saved him 3 nights of useless investigations. Needless to say, the town won.

And I can't tell you how many times I've waited till day 3-4 to reveal, and by then collected the names of everyone in the Mafia.

It's amazing how after a couple days of no one revealing as Spy, the Mafia will tend to assume that there isn't a spy in the game.

i dont know in what server you play, but i have NEVER EVER met such a dumb mafia who says their names LOL why would you even do that..

You'd be surprised. I've often had careless Mafia start night chat by saying "no names" and then proceed to be like "hey orange, don't kill that one, get teal instead" or something similar. People make mistakes all the time. I don't know what server you play on where every game is played by flawless automatons. xD

[regardzz]

The Spy is my favorite role, and one of the most powerful in the game. Like others have pointed out, just by existing (even if there isn't a confirmed Spy in game), the Mafia will lose its ability to strategize. Additionally, if you're playing with Masons in a setup, and Spy has the ability to hear Masons, the Spy can subtly clue the Masons to who he is. That's an immediate 3+ confirmed town.

If you get a Spy via Random Town or Random Any, there is a good chance the Mafia will give themselves away via chat. If you don't reveal for a long time, and there is someone that the Mafia is accusing during the day, they will probably talk about that person at night, proving that an innocent townie is being setup for a lynch.

The Masons thing is by far the most powerful far of Spy though. I remember my favorite Spy moment was when I saw the Masons talking at night, and as soon as it was day repeated the first couple things they said to each other. To everyone else, it sounded like random babbling. To the Masons, however, I was revealed as Spy. Eventually, we all revealed to the invest and saved him 3 nights of useless investigations. Needless to say, the town won.

And I can't tell you how many times I've waited till day 3-4 to reveal, and by then collected the names of everyone in the Mafia.

It's amazing how after a couple days of no one revealing as Spy, the Mafia will tend to assume that there isn't a spy in the game.

i dont know in what server you play, but i have NEVER EVER met such a dumb mafia who says their names LOL why would you even do that..

You'd be surprised. I've often had careless Mafia start night chat by saying "no names" and then proceed to be like "hey orange, don't kill that one, get teal instead" or something similar. People make mistakes all the time. I don't know what server you play on where every game is played by flawless automatons. xD

yea i do that " hey orange " too, TO MAKE SPY THINK THAT ORANGE IS MAFIA lol

[Doc]

This is my final opinion on spies. They are useless in 95% of the games. You can't say anything against this. Mafia always says random names on purpose.

[Claire_Stanfield]

The problem is that mafia hasn't got enough time to talk.
Setup:
Night lenght 0.7
Random guy: noobhost night 0.5!

[Deolrin]

Just tell them to deal with it.

[wightsnow]

yea i do that " hey orange " too, TO MAKE SPY THINK THAT ORANGE IS MAFIA lol

I've had mafia say "who do you think is doctor? it's probably blue" then they targeted pink. I got blue lynched because it's so obvious that mafia would kill a doctor if they could.

Just because you can listen in on a "private" conversation, doesn't mean you stop needing to use your head. Just use it as an opportunity to catch people in lies same as during the day.

[TheJackofSpades]

This is my final opinion on spies. They are useless in 95% of the games. You can't say anything against this. Mafia always says random names on purpose.

You can still use this information if you consider the fact that most mafia, when attempting to throw off a spy, will never name themselves or their fellow mafia as the recipient(counter-productive). Thus anyone they do name can be cleared of being mafia.

[Dark.Revenant]

You know, spies now have the option (default off) to see PMs during the day. Just saying...

[Fulla]

A SPY relies on a VERY DUMB Mafia. Sorry but that is a fact and everyone knows it You guys over exaggerate how much 'strategy talk' is needed it's a real shame you view it that way.

A good experienced Godfather and decent Mafia, won't even need to talk, it's obvious who to take out.

Even if you absolutely HAVE to say something, a GF telling one of his minions "don't target him please, 1 above person you did last night". It's more than enough for a Consig or blackmailer to understand the boss and change target.

Please consider adding one more final option to the Mafia
- Can see a not kill target from a random other Mafia Member each night (Other being not GodFather/Mafioso but one of the other roles).

This would atleast let him have a clue to if someone was investigated, roleblocked or silenced etc.

[Dark.Revenant]

I'm not sure that you noticed but the Spy recently got an option (on NA only, so far) to see players' PMs. It's default-off but you might want to turn it on if you hate that role so much.

[wightsnow]

I'm not sure that you noticed but the Spy recently got an option (on NA only, so far) to see players' PMs. It's default-off but you might want to turn it on if you hate that role so much.

He may not play with private messages.

Honestly, Spy prevents fancy play from the mafia and day coordination. If you think mafia can play it straight every time, perhaps you don't play with enough experienced people.

[FalseTruth]

I believe the potentiality of spy in a random town spawn is what makes spy so good. Mafia are always paranoid about a spy existing, so they speak in code in order to choose targets.

If one of the mafia is a consig, the info he gathers will either be instantly found out or not revealed to other mafia.

If one of the mafia is disguiser, then sometimes the other mafia have to step in to say, "Don't use it yet!" or something along those lines to control the usage.

Many times mafia want to recommend targets to kill/silence/disguise/block/check but cannot do so because that would enable spy to find out too much info on who is not mafia throguht the process of elimination.

For all the mafia roles, if one player wants to suggest kills or discuss who to kill by bouncing ideas back and forth with the other mafia, this cannot be done.

Think about it, NOTHING THE MAFIAS SAY IS EVER HIDDEN FROM SPIES!

A smart spy should be able to check logs and figure out every single mafia if they live long enough.

[TheJackofSpades]

You know, spies now have the option (default off) to see PMs during the day. Just saying...

THIS IS AWESOME. Just saying, if I ever do decide to host, this will definitely be in my games.

[Lysergic]

A SPY relies on a VERY DUMB Mafia. Sorry but that is a fact and everyone knows it You guys over exaggerate how much 'strategy talk' is needed it's a real shame you view it that way.

A good experienced Godfather and decent Mafia, won't even need to talk, it's obvious who to take out.

A Doctor relies on a VERY DUMB Mafia. Sorry but that is a fact and everyone knows it You guys over exaggerate how much 'strategy targeting' is needed it's a real shame you view it that way.

A good experienced Godfather and decent Mafia, won't even worry about targeting same guy as the Doctor, it's obvious who to take out.

Substitute with all other roles. Thus, remove all town roles, since they all rely on "dumb mafia" fucking up. Any role that has ANY weakness or ANY propensity for being fooled should be removed from the game because I'm so 1337 at playing Mafia that it's just pointless and stupid to have them.

That's what you sound like.

[Dark.Revenant]

Fallacies on both sides of the argument: who will win?

[Lysergic]

Fallacies on both sides of the argument: who will win?

To be clear, that was sarcasm. I'm criticizing the mentality of "I don't like X role, therefore X role doesn't belong in the game, because if I don't like it, NO ONE does." I don't actually think Doctors should be removed (even though I hate playing as them - I suck as Doc. Not going to lie).

I don't like playing as some roles, but I see a lot of other people single handedly winning the game as those roles. Most people hate Spy with a fiery passion, and yet I've definitely single handedly won the game as a Spy before (and had surprised people comment that they'd never seen a useful spy before). The issue with Spy is not that it's a bad role; it's that people are bad at playing as Spy, or are playing against people that know how powerful Spy is and take precautions against it. The fact that many Mafia-side players know Spy is a powerful role that can fuck them over doesn't make Spy a bad role.

[Fulla]

You mis interpret me. I love playing Spy, I think it's an awesome role and very cool. But it just honestly relies on the Mafia being stupid.

Just to clarify, I'm not a noob, I've played 100's of games, both as Spy, as Mafia, as whatever.

You have to realize that everything you guys are saying is all theory, it's all 'if this happens, if that occurs, it stops this."

But truthfully in practice, in real games it just doesn't happen like that at all sorry. You completely underestimate how much can be done without saying anything.

It stops Consig?
- Consig to Mafia > "Kill this target" - The consig has found a vital target and wants him killed. But what has Spy found out, nothing really?
Find out there's a blackmailer?
- Who actually says "blackmail him tonight", come on. You all see who's silenced, you all know what to do.

Look I'm not trying to be a smart ass, maybe all your games you play are private, with very talkative mafia. But do you ever play publics? They hardly say anything, the Spy role becomes so tedious to play.

I'm not asking for drastic changes, merely an extra option. If you don't like the option, you can always NOT have it enabled, but players like me who prefer to have a slightly stronger Spy can put it on.

I never play with PMs on sorry. Maybe it's alot different on the EU server.

I just ask for option, can see another target each night from a random mafia member. I think that would only improve the game. But up to DR.

[Lysergic]

You mis interpret me. I love playing Spy, I think it's an awesome role and very cool. But it just honestly relies on the Mafia being stupid.

Disagree. It relies on Mafia MAKING MISTAKES. Making mistakes =/= being stupid. Most roles rely on Mafia making mistakes. That's how most victories in the game happen. Everyone makes those mistakes.

Just to clarify, I'm not a noob, I've played 100's of games, both as Spy, as Mafia, as whatever.

You have to realize that everything you guys are saying is all theory, it's all 'if this happens, if that occurs, it stops this."

But truthfully in practice, in real games it just doesn't happen like that at all sorry. You completely underestimate how much can be done without saying anything.

Now you're the one misinterpreting what I've said. You assume that I'm pulling facts about the Spy out of thin air. Want me to start posting replays of the "theories" actually happening in reality?

I understand how you can play as Mafia and not say anything. Trust me. I love Spy, more than any other role, so when I play Mafia, I play with a mind for the possibility of there being a Spy. And I know how to communicate what I want to say without having to explicitly type it. However, when Night Length is on MINIMUM, when other Mafia members don't GET what I'm trying to tell them, when REALITY (not theory) comes into play, it becomes a LOT more difficult to communicate without saying things up front. In other words, when it comes to REALITY, Spy makes it a lot more difficult to play as Mafia.

It would be EASIER to just say "Hey Jimbo, don't target Bob, frame Joe-Jack instead." It would be EASIER to do that than to have to be like, "Hey, don't do that. Do this:" -click target- -click back to original target- "get it? not the one youre doing - this one". And I promise, 9 times out of 10, the WRONG mafia guy will be like "who, me?" And I won't be able to say, "No, Jimbo, not you Fred." because I know that there might be a Spy.

This is not because I'm some drooling retard who can't communicate without explicitly saying stuff. It's because I'm an experienced player who KNOWS that to say anything directly is dangerous. But there's still a physical time limit, there's pressure, stress, and the HUMAN tendency to make mistakes. Which is where Spy thrives. Not in the realm of stupidity, in the realm of humanity.

It stops Consig?
- Consig to Mafia > "Kill this target" - The consig has found a vital target and wants him killed. But what has Spy found out, nothing really?

And now you're the one being theoretical. You're the one making up situations where the Spy is useless. And I am making up situations where the Spy is useful. We're using the same methods to argue; you're just criticizing me for doing what you're doing.

Find out there's a blackmailer?
- Who actually says "blackmail him tonight", come on. You all see who's silenced, you all know what to do.

How else do you say it?

Godfather: "Hey, get this one." -clicks to indicate-

Consig: "k"

Godfather: "no"

Consig: "what?"

Night is over; Blackmailer doesn't get the right one.

Yet another situation where lack of communication can screw over the Mafia.

Do I really have to start posting replays to drive this point home? o.0

Look I'm not trying to be a smart ass, maybe all your games you play are private, with very talkative mafia.

"Look I'm not trying to be a smart ass, maybe you just play with noobs who fuck themselves over for the spy because they're idiots." That's how I interpret what you just said. Which, to me, seems like you being a smart ass.

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but maybe you play with weird, fucked up, retarded settings where the Mafia has 4 hours to silently communicate and strategize, instead of less than a minute like most normal games.

How does it feel to be on the receiving end of "not trying to be a smartass"?

But do you ever play publics?

About a third of the games I play are publics. About a third are exclusively channel. About another third are mixed.

They hardly say anything, the Spy role becomes so tedious to play.

I've never had a boring round as Spy. I almost always get it as a Random Town, almost always just sit for 2-3 nights gathering clues from Mafia chat (p.s. the Mafia doesn't have to say a name for me to figure out who they are - they OFTEN reference stuff that happens during the day - e.g. "wow; close call on lynch." BOOM! I instantly know a Mafia member almost got lynched), ALMOST ALWAYS the Mafia, not knowing which role I am, accuses me and puts me on trial, ALMOST ALWAYS I go back and VERY QUICKLY (during trial defense period) type EVERY NIGHT of Mafia chat into chatbox so that the Town gets a MASSIVE flood of intel ALL AT ONCE, ALMOST ALWAYS revealing at least one of the Mafia members. ALMOST ALWAYS the Town votes me Innocent when they see this flood of text, ALMOST ALWAYS the night afterwards the Mafia panic are are like, "holy fuck; kill Gary Oak, he's a fucking Spy". ALMOST ALWAYS I put that night's Mafia chat in my last will. ALMOST ALWAYS my death gives the town a SOLID LEAD on at LEAST 1 USUALLY 2 Mafia members.

THIS IS NOT THEORETICAL SHIT; THIS IS HOW I ALMOST ALWAYS PLAY SPY IN REAL-LIFE GAMES.

ALMOST ALWAYS people are amazed at how I play Spy, as if they NEVER REALIZED that this is WHY Spy is useful.

Are you understanding what I'm saying?

I'm not asking for drastic changes, merely an extra option. If you don't like the option, you can always NOT have it enabled, but players like me who prefer to have a slightly stronger Spy can put it on.

Okay. I hate playing as Doctors. I always die on Night 1 when I play Doctor. If I suggested that Doctors should be invulnerable at night, people would flip shit. The game is BALANCED for a reason. That option would be insanely overpowered for Spy. Spy comes up A LOT for randoms (the majority of games I play with random town spots gets at least one Spy). If we had that option (which, p.s. noob hosts would ALWAYS turn on - would completely change the metagame), Framer, Blackmailer, Consig, etc. would be ruined. Consig couldn't counter-claim as Investigator, because when they listed who they checked, the Spy could just look back and know the Consig is lying. Accused Mafia couldn't pretend to be silenced - the Spy would know. Sheriffs and Investigators could just ask the Spy if someone was framed, rather than figuring it out.

I'm not arguing some crazy theoretical particle physics bullshit; I am saying that the Spy role in-game is balanced and fills a very useful spot in the metagame, and SHOULD NOT be made more powerful, especially with that insane buff option.

I never play with PMs on sorry. Maybe it's alot different on the EU server.

I never used to, but recently they've been on in 6/10 games that I play. Maybe the EU server has a completely different version of Mafia, and none of the same strategies apply, so anyone who disagrees with you can never be right since it's different in Europe. :/

There. I'm done. I'm sick of arguing this with people. Do a forum search for "spy" and see how many topics come up with people whining that the Spy has no purpose and should be deleted / made UBER-1337. I don't want to argue this anymore with people; from now on, I'm just linking them to this post.

[TheJackofSpades]

I appreciate you putting so much effort into defending the spy, but I don't think it's time well spent judging by the OP's reactions. I will offer one tidbit of insight; OP, you are examining the spy from a one-dimensional scope. You say you've played a hundred games as spy, yet your arguments only assess the spy as his most base role; Calling out mafia who refer to each other by name, distinguish roles, etc. This is but a single aspect of the spy. He fragments communications, places strain on an otherwise easy, collected night time. The mafia's greatest asset is their ability to communicate at night. Simply by being a possibility, the spy weakens this.

But I digress, Lysergic has said all that before. What I would like to point out is that there is much to be gleamed from the way people type, the way people form sentences and express themselves in language that the spy can use to create theories. His capabilities do not end simply on the basic; the spy is an advanced role, it has more depth to it than you give it credit. I've only had the pleasure of playing the role a few times, but in that short time it has taught me how to efficiently scope out disguisers as well because paying attention to how people act, reading between the lines, seeing what they AREN'T saying as much as what they are, is what encompasses a GOOD spy from a run-of-the-mill one.

[Deolrin]

I had a very nice game as a spy once, in which the Godfather left\got killed 1st night and there were 2 Janitors left. I knew they were Janitors since they said something like "I clean up you, you clean up me" so I just announced that in day-chat and told the investigators to look for Arsonists\Serial Killers and Framers. We won with only one arsonist burn, which ended up killing 3 people, including the Sheriff.

[Fulla]

Ugh, I'll quote what you're trying to get across instead of huge chunks of text.

Stupidty != Mistakes

So a whole role based around the Mafia making a mistake? Doesn't sound good to me ;)

But anyways sorry you are wrong, I'll elaborate why. Stupid and inexperienced players are the ones who make these 'mistakes'. But in fact there not even mistakes they're just Mafia players unaware of what a Spy role does or playing for the first time.

Good players, even with the 30 second night limit, do not make mistakes. Thus the Spy becomes a negligible role at worst, useless at best

Theory/Practicality

- First off you act as thou once the Spy has a lead the Mafia are doomed and the game is over, this is a farcry from reality.

You don't seem to mention, or perhaps it simply doesn't occur to you, the Mafia can speak during day as well, they can interact, they can lie, they can mislead, they can even get the Spy lynched.

In addition you have Jesters and Executioners trying to execute people and get lynched. You even sometimes have a Witch who if good will be helping Mafia.

- Second the mafia can easily just night talk alot crap with false names, even misleading the Spy making him get innocent people lynched and then inevitably himself.

- Third the Spy itself can be a bad player himself, in which he'll be even more useless to the Town, whilst as a different role he would atleast fulfill his slot provide a heal, investigate someone etc.

- Fourth, let me ask you, how many games have you played where a Sheriff find a Mafia member 1st day? Does the game end there, is it over? NO! Even with this huge disadvantage, the Mafia often can come back and pull a win.

So in the same way even if a Spy catches 1, which is so rare personally I've seen this maybe 1 in 30 games and always because the mafia made a terrible mistake. The game still goes on.

Scenario's

My scenario's I was just throwing randoms, to show you really don't need to say names.

Let me just ask you instead, why would I HAVE to say someone's name, as in absolutely no choice I have to?

Most information you say to each other is generally already known by the Spy, you just re-iterate it for example so a dumb Godfather doesn't try to kill Sheriff/Invest when he's obviously being healed. But again if he's smart you'll just see his well chosen target and do whatever you're role's job is around it.

It's in fact quite easy to play a whole game as Mafia with saying little and playing fairly passively.

maybe you play with weird, fucked up, retarded settings where the Mafia has 4 hours to silently communicate and strategize, instead of less than a minute like most normal games.

Obviously in publics it's all random how the settings are, so hard to say, but privately I usually play pretty insane games. With 3-4 Mafia, 1 or more Sk's, Arsonist.

I've never seen a Spy do much , the real heroes I've especially lately come to find are the Escorts and Doctors, but that's for another discussion

Are you understanding what I'm saying?

Yeah of course, but I feel you blindly have it in your mind that the Spy is all powerful.

Can you not see what I'm saying thou?

Okay. I hate playing as Doctors. I always die on Night 1 when I play Doctor. If I suggested that Doctors should be invulnerable at night, people would flip shit. The game is BALANCED for a reason. That option would be insanely overpowered for Spy. Spy comes up A LOT for randoms (the majority of games I play with random town spots gets at least one Spy). If we had that option (which, p.s. noob hosts would ALWAYS turn on - would completely change the metagame), Framer, Blackmailer, Consig, etc. would be ruined. Consig couldn't counter-claim as Investigator, because when they listed who they checked, the Spy could just look back and know the Consig is lying. Accused Mafia couldn't pretend to be silenced - the Spy would know. Sheriffs and Investigators could just ask the Spy if someone was framed, rather than figuring it out.

Yeah Doctor is quite boring, the healer role generally is in all games, but he's essential.

All the Spy would be able to see is, someone was targeted, he wouldn't know what it is thou.

Then he has to come out and proclaim himself as Spy, do town believe him?

I never play with PMs on sorry. Maybe it's alot different on the EU server.

I never used to, but recently they've been on in 6/10 games that I play. Maybe the EU server has a completely different version of Mafia, and none of the same strategies apply, so anyone who disagrees with you can never be right since it's different in Europe. :/

I don't think games are that different. I imagine thou you play Mafia how 'its meant to be played' Lots of Citizens etc.

I tend to play more role to role balanced games, where everyone individual has some power, so weaker town roles buffed alot, stronger evol roles nerfed alot.

There. I'm done. I'm sick of arguing this with people. Do a forum search for "spy" and see how many topics come up with people whining that the Spy has no purpose and should be deleted / made UBER-1337. I don't want to argue this anymore with people; from now on, I'm just linking them to this post.

I'm not saying removed nor all powerful!! The Spy just doesn't have a great deal going for him.

To sum it up:

- He needs to be good and he also needs the Mafia to really fuck up and give away info. Then he needs there to be enough people left alive to get the Mafia lynched. All of this I'll say again relies on the mafia being bad players.

A good mafia team will NEVER get lynched by a Spy, that is the problem! Whilst other roles such as Sheriffs, Investigator, Escorts, catch them left and right.

- Spy has no use against Sk's, Witches, Arsonists etc.

Many games have many killers apart from Mafia, if the mafia don't speak much, have a few die early. You really don't have anything to do.

But anyways I doubt DR will ever change Spy, so my arguing is probably pretty pointless.

[Dark.Revenant]

The PM-reading ability makes the Spy extremely strong and durable (nigh-unlynchable). It's true that the Spy's immediate use is otherwise limited because his ability merely puts pressure on the Mafia and doesn't actually get them caught usually. However, that doesn't mean he is worthless.

[Styx]

Spy is only useless if the Mafia is shit.

Spy makes a good Mafia play like shit.

Mafia is always easy to beat in games with Spies.

Why? Because the Mafia cannot utilize any decent strategy. This is offset in the first point wherein the Mafia probably weren't going to use any strategy anyway. In the second point it exclaims that a would-be decent Mafia cannot strategise - or, if they try to - will be immediately caught out. Hence the Mafia is always ridiculously easy to to beat.

I know what the metagame is currently like on the US servers, I get that players still don't strategise for a variety of reasons including: Impatience - resulting in shorter day/night times limiting discussion, a lack of citizens in play, the fact that no one else does it makes it seem unnecessary, etc. Most of the fault is on the hosts themselves that promote the ridiculously one-dimensional play.

Give it some time, peoples minds will begin to flourish and you'll start to see some really intense games with lots of elaborate lies, plots and schemes. People will start to see how powerful these strategies are - then you'll start to see the Spy fully utilized.

In the meantime try out the Spy in PM games, its fun (apparently imbalanced according to Claw :P) and I've had a couple of great games with it so far.

[Edgeris]

-snip-
(p.s. the Mafia doesn't have to say a name for me to figure out who they are - they OFTEN reference stuff that happens during the day - e.g. "wow; close call on lynch." BOOM! I instantly know a Mafia member almost got lynched)
-snip-

You're lucky I'm not mafia in a game where you're spy. You would be trying to re-lynch a bunch of non-mafia people. I regularly reference stuff during the day to make a false positive. (Or false negative - ally mafia and I deduced to be mafia during the day, but managed to survive by time; managed to get the spy to reveal himself, swearing we weren't mafia)

As mafia (when there's a spy or a random town), I always say random things and change grammar and punctuation to match multiple people. It would actually help me as mafia if the spy gave out the transcript so there would be more people to help accuse the wrong person.

[Membrax]

You're lucky I'm not mafia in a game where you're spy. You would be trying to re-lynch a bunch of non-mafia people. I regularly reference stuff during the day to make a false positive. (Or false negative - ally mafia and I deduced to be mafia during the day, but managed to survive by time; managed to get the spy to reveal himself, swearing we weren't mafia)

As mafia (when there's a spy or a random town), I always say random things and change grammar and punctuation to match multiple people. It would actually help me as mafia if the spy gave out the transcript so there would be more people to help accuse the wrong person.

This is an excellent strategy, which sometimes works wonder. I know I won games this way
Fortunately for spies, most people are not that tricky.

[Lysergic]

-snip-
(p.s. the Mafia doesn't have to say a name for me to figure out who they are - they OFTEN reference stuff that happens during the day - e.g. "wow; close call on lynch." BOOM! I instantly know a Mafia member almost got lynched)
-snip-

You're lucky I'm not mafia in a game where you're spy. You would be trying to re-lynch a bunch of non-mafia people. I regularly reference stuff during the day to make a false positive. (Or false negative - ally mafia and I deduced to be mafia during the day, but managed to survive by time; managed to get the spy to reveal himself, swearing we weren't mafia)

As mafia (when there's a spy or a random town), I always say random things and change grammar and punctuation to match multiple people. It would actually help me as mafia if the spy gave out the transcript so there would be more people to help accuse the wrong person.

You assume I don't do the same thing. :/

Of COURSE those are the risks when you play Spy. Does it take away from the validity of the points I'm making? My entire argument is that NO ROLE is perfect, least of all Spy, but that ALL ROLES have an important use.

Also, guy I'm arguing with the most, I'm done talking to you. You're response to a post that I took a long time to type out, where I was careful to try to respect what you were saying, was downright offensive and rude. Read the words I typed and then try again, and MAYBE I'll continue this discussion. Don't just tl;dr every quote and use some shitty "nope you're wrong bro" counter argument. You clearly didn't read my post based on your response.

[regardzz]

The PM-reading ability makes the Spy extremely strong and durable (nigh-unlynchable). It's true that the Spy's immediate use is otherwise limited because his ability merely puts pressure on the Mafia and doesn't actually get them caught usually. However, that doesn't mean he is worthless.

it may make them strong, but lol pm-reading, realy.. i dont remember when was the last time i had a game with pm(never). In pubs people instantly cry and you have to turn it off or everyone leaves, in channel games no one uses it, i dont know maybe in USA server its different, but in EU no pms ;/

[wightsnow]

The PM-reading ability makes the Spy extremely strong and durable (nigh-unlynchable). It's true that the Spy's immediate use is otherwise limited because his ability merely puts pressure on the Mafia and doesn't actually get them caught usually. However, that doesn't mean he is worthless.

US frequently has PM, try it in a channel game. Just let people know you're doing it first.

it may make them strong, but lol pm-reading, realy.. i dont remember when was the last time i had a game with pm(never). In pubs people instantly cry and you have to turn it off or everyone leaves, in channel games no one uses it, i dont know maybe in USA server its different, but in EU no pms ;/

[Ancanus]

On the Spy defense, doesn't he see who was targeted by the mafia that night?

If so, if you got a consiglieri, and a consort, don't you get to clear 2 people right away? 3 if mafia target is healed?
That seems pretty OP to me.

[Clawtrocity]

You only see who they target for the kill. So you can only clear someone if they were healed and even then they could of been disguised as.

An attack + Disguise = Heal eaten up and disguiser moves in for the kill.

[WingCraft]

What he said

[Nebbie]

The Spy would be great in a game with PMs, but in just about every game Ive played PMs are off.

The masons another possibility, but the problem there is that very few games I see include masons (they fell out of favor around the time roles such as the Jester and Bus Driver were added, probably due to being boring.) Masons need citizens and a Mason Leader to really work, but citizens are too boring for most people.

This leaves just the mafia to listen to in most games. The mafia Ive played with and listened to as spy do one of several things:
1-no names. i.e. a consig wants gf to kill someone, he can just decide to invest that person, then cancel to show who. spy gets no info except who is targeted. In some cases the mafia never says a single word.
2-mention only obvious names. mafia only drops names the spy already knows, and who they will kill. spy might get one additional name to targets and known townies (if mafia change their minds.) problem is, the spy doesnt know what names to trust as towns of those additional names.
3-misinformation. mafia drops mafia names plus town names as targets and town names with maybe one mafia name as mafia. spy cannot determine fake names, and will often get innocents lynched if acts on info.
4-dumb mafia. mafia say names of who in mafia. the spy doesnt know whether they are lying or not (the lying scenarios above are far more common), so usually doesnt act on info.

The idea of stopping mafia strategy with just the possibility of spy is good, but u do not need a strategy in most games, since gameplay is usually follow-the-cop with short nights and short days.

I agree with suggestion of spy having a chance to see nonkill targets as an option, that way the spy has something definitive to contribute in a nonPM game.

[Styx]

I really feel like all of the hate on spies, due to their inability to accurately determine a mafia members name the instant anything is said in chat, is due to the ridiculously common follow-the-sheriff gameplay that everyone seems adamant on using no matter what. Thing is, in a real game of mafia (ie. The original party game) there was never any certainty to someones role or alignment, the entire gameplay revolved around catching people in lies (NOT sitting back and waiting for the sheriff to say something) and that is what the spy is supposed to be used for.

Spy gameplay is not about figuring out names of mafia members (that is merely a byproduct of...)
Spy gameplay is about figuring out and/or preventing STRATEGY.

[SurgeonFish]

Spies are an interesting role, even their non-presence can be felt in game sometimes. They are not a power role per-sey, but when they are around you can definitely tell. Its kinda like that passive aggressive person at your place of work. You know if you set him over he will screw you over, but how far can you push them you will never know.

(my analogies suck but its so much fun to try)

[monster]

the ridiculously common follow-the-sheriff gameplay that everyone seems adamant on using no matter what

This sums up the thread, the forum and the current state of the mafia game.

[Membrax]

I really feel like all of the hate on spies, due to their inability to accurately determine a mafia members name the instant anything is said in chat, is due to the ridiculously common follow-the-sheriff gameplay that everyone seems adamant on using no matter what. Thing is, in a real game of mafia (ie. The original party game) there was never any certainty to someones role or alignment, the entire gameplay revolved around catching people in lies (NOT sitting back and waiting for the sheriff to say something) and that is what the spy is supposed to be used for.

Spy gameplay is not about figuring out names of mafia members (that is merely a byproduct of...)
Spy gameplay is about figuring out and/or preventing STRATEGY.

The truth has been spoken.