S-FM Lady Gaga (10P)

[PowersThatBe]

by your lgoic then town should not be punished for lynching a fan. no?

playiung well would include lynching the fan so are you saying lynching the fan is not playing well?

The goal is to lynch gaga-- so yes lynching fan is bad. Just apply solo scum hunting thought to this. Everything outside of Gaga is a mislynch

[ika]

The goal is to lynch gaga-- so yes lynching fan is bad. Just apply solo scum hunting thought to this. Everything outside of Gaga is a mislynch

thast the thing. there is no way to "solo scum hunt" LG can basicly play as town and be read as town for their motivations.

fan is not a myslynch becasue they are part of the scum team, if the fan did not count towards wincon then it could be argued.

again this is not adressing the issue that town loses for playing right on 3v2 and lynching fan becasue now the "scums" can "myslynch" it for the win so town has to correctly use 3 townies to correctly lynch one scum there.

[PowersThatBe]

thast the thing. there is no way to "solo scum hunt" LG can basicly play as town and be read as town for their motivations.

fan is not a myslynch becasue they are part of the scum team, if the fan did not count towards wincon then it could be argued.

again this is not adressing the issue that town loses for playing right on 3v2 and lynching fan becasue now the "scums" can "myslynch" it for the win so town has to correctly use 3 townies to correctly lynch one scum there.

Any role in any game could play as town and bee read as town.

Fan dies at night nmw, so it doesn't matter. It's a mislynch bc lunching them doesn't hurt the scum it hurts the town.

[ika]

Any role in any game could play as town and bee read as town.

Fan dies at night nmw, so it doesn't matter. It's a mislynch bc lunching them doesn't hurt the scum it hurts the town.

thats not the point nor does it adress the still isuse of 3v2 where the single scum has bascily 4 myslynches to use as well as cordinated day-chat for quick hammer.

all 3 towns could argubly lynch correctly the fan but then lose becasue its ocnsidered a "myslynch" when by definiotn of role and wincons, its not a "myslynch"

[PowersThatBe]

by your lgoic then town should not be punished for lynching a fan. no?

playiung well would include lynching the fan so are you saying lynching the fan is not playing well?

the fan is dying regardless of being lynched or not. Lynching the fan is not playing well because it's not the objective of the game.

The objective of cult of zed was to find the leader, but if you lynched a cult member it stopped a conversion at night, so there was merit in lynching the cult member. In this set up it does NOT HELP THE TOWN to lynch the fan.

The goal is to find Lady GaGa. That is the only goal, if you find the fan, then you need to look at interactions and try to scum hunt, and change your methods each day as the fan changes. You can use post flip associations to find the GaGa after each fan is revealed.

Lynching the fan hurts the town.

[Cryptonic]

@Gyrlander ping me when you want me to review. Don't want to review during conversations like this, incase something changes about the game.

[ika]

the fan is dying regardless of being lynched or not. Lynching the fan is not playing well because it's not the objective of the game.

The objective of cult of zed was to find the leader, but if you lynched a cult member it stopped a conversion at night, so there was merit in lynching the cult member. In this set up it does NOT HELP THE TOWN to lynch the fan.

The goal is to find Lady GaGa. That is the only goal, if you find the fan, then you need to look at interactions and try to scum hunt, and change your methods each day as the fan changes. You can use post flip associations to find the GaGa after each fan is revealed.

Lynching the fan hurts the town.

but both objectives from cult of zed and this are the same.

what im saying here is that town should still get merit for lynching fan and not punished becasue thats again, unfair to town that they correctly lynched scum but are still being punished for it. i understand their goal is to get LGG but being punished for hitting the partner (and my biggest point where it matters is the 3v2) is very unfair to town itself.

LGG should be able to be town enough to not be lynched in general. if they got lynched becasue they were scummy thats that.

in turn the fans should never change their read lists ever, they should instead continue the push and reads they had the entire time they are a fan. that way there is really nothing to go on other then maybe the n1 WIFOMing argument of why they were recruited and who would do it.

and if you add the fan back the fan is better off never giving reads at all and jsut trolling the fuck out of the game to rremove town of info so it can jsut take town out though recuitment

it boils down to that the point i keep bringing is not being adressed: why is town being punished for what is objectivly the good and right play (lynching scum). towns overal motive is to lynch LGG yes, but there should be an incentive to also lynch the recuit at a point instead of just going "ignore"

i mean if anything if you get recuited you should jsut afk or just come in and hammer day 2 and out yourself as scum and then jsut take someone new. scums should not be rewarded for being outed scum, they should be punished.

@Gyrlander ping me when you want me to review. Don't want to review during conversations like this, incase something changes about the game.

i would actualy like your (or any fm staffs like @Unknown1234 ) input on this issue.

[PowersThatBe]

but both objectives from cult of zed and this are the same.

what im saying here is that town should still get merit for lynching fan and not punished becasue thats again, unfair to town that they correctly lynched scum but are still being punished for it. i understand their goal is to get LGG but being punished for hitting the partner (and my biggest point where it matters is the 3v2) is very unfair to town itself.

LGG should be able to be town enough to not be lynched in general. if they got lynched becasue they were scummy thats that.

in turn the fans should never change their read lists ever, they should instead continue the push and reads they had the entire time they are a fan. that way there is really nothing to go on other then maybe the n1 WIFOMing argument of why they were recruited and who would do it.

and if you add the fan back the fan is better off never giving reads at all and jsut trolling the fuck out of the game to rremove town of info so it can jsut take town out though recuitment

it boils down to that the point i keep bringing is not being adressed: why is town being punished for what is objectivly the good and right play (lynching scum). towns overal motive is to lynch LGG yes, but there should be an incentive to also lynch the recuit at a point instead of just going "ignore"

i mean if anything if you get recuited you should jsut afk or just come in and hammer day 2 and out yourself as scum and then jsut take someone new. scums should not be rewarded for being outed scum, they should be punished.



i would actualy like your (or any fm staffs like @Unknown1234 ) input on this issue.

I think this is a trumped up issue. I don't think it's really an issue at all. This forces the town to work together and use scum hunting to their advantage. You have to play in a different way than most tradition scum team games, because in lynching one scum, you are actually helping the scum team.

This is as if Masquerade Madness, the solo scum had an apprentice. And instead of the SK changing identities, the identity of the apprentice changes. I think it's unique and cool, and what I think you're doing is hurting the chances for creativity and innovation. Sure this isn't a traditional setup and it wasn't meant to be a traditional set up.

So if you apply traditional methods of thought and scum hunting, the town will fail, this helps the town to rise above -- to shoot for more.

The town shouldn't get anything for not lynching the correct target. It's really that simple. This is gyrlanders save, and if you don't like it, you don't have to play it. Now he has been more than accommodating, and has made alterations. I think we should let this play out, and then see what changes need to happen post game.

As it stands now, this is a very unique set up, and it could lead to team Gaga snowballing, but it's more balanced than cult of zed was...and I think that as long as town works TOGETHER, and, realigns every single day, and treats each day as a day 1 situation, then they should be fine.

But continuing to water it down will just ruin what could be a great and fun save.

Forum mafia isn't and shouldn't be about winning and losing. It should be about playing the game because it is fun. And I say this as a very competitive person.

This save is great. Town has 1 objective, lynch Lady Gaga. That is it. That is how Gyrlander designed it, and trying to get him to switch that just isn't right.

Trying to say "well town should be rewarded for scum hunting." Yeah sure, in most games they are, but this isn't most games, and it doesn't pretend to be a vanilla save. If you want a vanilla save, go play a vanilla save. I, however, will be playing this very interesting save where I know my objective will be to either kill lady gaga as a hater (until or if I am converted) or win the game as Gaga. It's simple, and if I figure out who the fan is. I'm going to try to use that information to kill the lady gaga as a hater.

You're really over complicating this Ika. Truly.

I think the best thing we can do, is let Crypt review and let other fm staff review if they want, and they can have a conversation with gyr separate from us. You've made your points, and I think it would be best if they considered everything between host and fm staff.

[ika]

I think this is a trumped up issue. I don't think it's really an issue at all. This forces the town to work together and use scum hunting to their advantage. You have to play in a different way than most tradition scum team games, because in lynching one scum, you are actually helping the scum team.

yes and that should not be the case. if you think its all trumped up you can just agree to disagree

This is as if Masquerade Madness, the solo scum had an apprentice. And instead of the SK changing identities, the identity of the apprentice changes. I think it's unique and cool, and what I think you're doing is hurting the chances for creativity and innovation. Sure this isn't a traditional setup and it wasn't meant to be a traditional set up.

i already know that and have aknoglaged that. i would still like it to be ballanced

So if you apply traditional methods of thought and scum hunting, the town will fail, this helps the town to rise above -- to shoot for more.

and thats what i have been aruging but it should also mean town should be rewarded for playing right. we have had dicussions in the past on why town does so bad and this would only renforce the negatvitity that has been an issue

The town shouldn't get anything for not lynching the correct target. It's really that simple. This is gyrlanders save, and if you don't like it, you don't have to play it. Now he has been more than accommodating, and has made alterations. I think we should let this play out, and then see what changes need to happen post game.

town should though, otherwise its leads to the same shit site meta we have as of now. i know this is gyrs game and he has every right to refuse everything and anything i say as well. its jsut my adivice as a host that many have argued that the sites games are imballanced and is what have made people play less. so im looking ot have better ballance so players will stay and play again. its not a matter of "just me" its a matter of what has been a site issue

As it stands now, this is a very unique set up, and it could lead to team Gaga snowballing, but it's more balanced than cult of zed was...and I think that as long as town works TOGETHER, and, realigns every single day, and treats each day as a day 1 situation, then they should be fine.

and what are the odds of that happening? while town should be doing that its also what happened in cult of zed and what i used to my advantage. town got apathtic off that and basicly "quit" after day 2

But continuing to water it down will just ruin what could be a great and fun save.

again, gyr can disregard what is said entirely or not. im voicing what i beleive will lead to better site meat and retaining players on what is a site issue bieng adressed in the past about ballance

Forum mafia isn't and shouldn't be about winning and losing. It should be about playing the game because it is fun. And I say this as a very competitive person.

thats what i have said but most people also want ballance

This save is great. Town has 1 objective, lynch Lady Gaga. That is it. That is how Gyrlander designed it, and trying to get him to switch that just isn't right.

im not trying to get him to switch that either. im trying to say that town is stacked to lose by playing right

Trying to say "well town should be rewarded for scum hunting." Yeah sure, in most games they are, but this isn't most games, and it doesn't pretend to be a vanilla save. If you want a vanilla save, go play a vanilla save. I, however, will be playing this very interesting save where I know my objective will be to either kill lady gaga as a hater (until or if I am converted) or win the game as Gaga. It's simple, and if I figure out who the fan is. I'm going to try to use that information to kill the lady gaga as a hater.

and i already explained what fan has to do after day 1, jsut not post at all or troll the shit out fo the game. at best come the lylo/mylo thats when it matters.

finding the fan only leads to a WIFOM dicussion of why was player X recuited. not only that theres jsut another WIFOM argument of fear of "why is player X not dead/converted"

You're really over complicating this Ika. Truly.

not really, like i said, it can be ignored entirly. you are the one who continues to respond in gyrs defense

I think the best thing we can do, is let Crypt review and let other fm staff review if they want, and they can have a conversation with gyr separate from us. You've made your points, and I think it would be best if they considered everything between host and fm staff.

they can review at any point they like, i have even asked them for input on this said issue if you have not noticed. if they wanted us players to not comment at all then they can ask as much. but i find it that they rather encourage it becasue us players can find things they may overlook

[Gyrlander]

2 Haters have been added so Town has another Lynch. @Cryptonic Ready for review.

[PowersThatBe]

2 Haters have been added so Town has another Lynch. @Cryptonic Ready for review.

Real quick. If you're doing 10 people, Gaga should start with a fan Day1 imo.

[Gyrlander]

Real quick. If you're doing 10 people, Gaga should start with a fan Day1 imo.

In that case town wouldn't have another Lynch.

[Cryptonic]

You guys can comment and discuss as much as you want, im not discouraging it.

I am just not doing an official review until Gyrlander has confirmed any changes to his setup based on these conversations lol.

If he says hes ready, then i will review once home.

[Gyrlander]

You guys can comment and discuss as much as you want, im not discouraging it.

I am just not doing an official review until Gyrlander has confirmed any changes to his setup based on these conversations lol.

If he says hes ready, then i will review once home.

I think the setup has been modified enough by far lol. Hope you can review it & give your opinion when you return home

[Cryptonic]

@Gyrlander

Lady Gaga's rolecard doesn't specify that they get to choose the first Lady Gaga Fan, please add to rolecard.

I would consider giving Lady Gaga a number of charges (probably around 1-2) for conversions, if I were you. I do agree that Town should be rewarded for successful lynches on Lady Gaga's team eventually, but it initially being treated like a Jester for the first lynch helps bring some balance to Lady Gaga's team. If you are adverse to Conversions limits, make it so Lady Gaga has to wait 1 day + 1 night cycle before converting again. This prevents the game from having almost every single lynch qualify as a misslynch.

I don't feel that the psuedo-disguise is OP the way it is, since it's basically always 1 KPN per night regardless of the outcome.

Let me know what you think.

[Cryptonic]

Actually, crunching the numbers again, I'm not really concerns about the conversion limits.
With the forced 1 KPN from the Fan, it is 3 pure Misslynches to lose (lynch on Town, not Fan), and 1 correct lynch to Win.

Reading the Fans can easily be a way to help Town find Gaga.

I also see that Town is rewarded because it doesn't take away the number of misslynches they can have:

WCS:
2v8
(L)2v7
2v6
(L)2v5
2v4
(L)2v3

Lynching Fans:
2v
(L)1v7
2v6
(L)1v6
2v5
(L)1v5
2v4
(L)1v4
2v3

So, lynching Fans in the game gives Town an extra lynch, so they are being rewarded with extra time and reads.

[Gyrlander]

Lady Gaga starts alone, though.

[Gyrlander]

Actually, crunching the numbers again, I'm not really concerns about the conversion limits.
With the forced 1 KPN from the Fan, it is 3 pure Misslynches to lose (lynch on Town, not Fan), and 1 correct lynch to Win.

Reading the Fans can easily be a way to help Town find Gaga.

I also see that Town is rewarded because it doesn't take away the number of misslynches they can have:

WCS:
2v8
(L)2v7
2v6
(L)2v5
2v4
(L)2v3

Lynching Fans:
2v
(L)1v7
2v6
(L)1v6
2v5
(L)1v5
2v4
(L)1v4
2v3

So, lynching Fans in the game gives Town an extra lynch, so they are being rewarded with extra time and reads.

They actually have 1 more lynch cause Lady Gaga starts alone, so I think it is balanced enough?

[Cryptonic]

They actually have 1 more lynch cause Lady Gaga starts alone, so I think it is balanced enough?

I am comfortable with it if you are.
3-4 misslynches vs 1 lynch seems harder for scum then for Town, IMO.

You can post signups whenever you're ready.

Please do fix Lady Gaga's rolecard, though.
Like change "when your fan dies" to "When you're alone", or something like that.

[Gyrlander]

I am comfortable with it if you are.
3-4 misslynches vs 1 lynch seems harder for scum then for Town, IMO.

You can post signups whenever you're ready.

Please do fix Lady Gaga's rolecard, though.
Like change "when your fan dies" to "When you're alone", or something like that.

Yeah, I also feel like scum will have a hard time in this setup, but I must hear what the few people that actually dedicate their time to check setups have to say. And well... HAVING TO BE GOOD IN ORDER TO WIN AS LADY GAGA MAKES SENSE.

Fixed the Rolecard, will post signups soon.

[PowersThatBe]

Yeah, I also feel like scum will have a hard time in this setup, but I must hear what the few people that actually dedicate their time to check setups have to say. And well... HAVING TO BE GOOD IN ORDER TO WIN AS LADY GAGA MAKES SENSE.

Fixed the Rolecard, will post signups soon.

Just to clarify before we start. The Gaga has to convert each night correct? They can't keep the same fan for longer than one days?

[Gyrlander]

Just to clarify before we start. The Gaga has to convert each night correct? They can't keep the same fan for longer than one days?

The rolecard says "CAN" so it is not mandatory. Pretty sure we changed it during our discussion.