S-FM 221: Death Note

[Stealthbomber16]

Stealthbomber needs to post more. His reads list was really bad. Like really, really bad. I'm ready to vote him off today but I'd like to give him a chance to post since we only saw one post out of him yesterday.

Sorry, as I said, RL issues.

I knew I would need to address this so here it is.

ummm that part on me isn't remotely accurate....

So turns out I was objectively wrong. Not even close on this read. I was going to make a strong push for FB today based off of his speed lynch flip onto SJ like he did in Charmander's Revenge as scum but turns out he was town. No idea why.

I have a problem with this reads list because the reason you gave for scumreading me all day yesterday was that I wasn't being consistent. Now you say I am being consistent?

This was you misinterpreting my reads. You are consistent in that your day to day playstyle is the same, there is no evidence of a conversion on any day, and in fact, there is even less of it every day. Go figure.

That being said I don't like how quickly the SJ train formed, even though it was a good lynch, and I don't like the way so many people hopped onto it so quickly. Makes me think that the scum was on that train.

[SilverWolf]

OK, Light bulb moment. I thought Stealth was inconsistent in his reads and displaying an unclear thought process. But in actuality he wasn't. He said that my play never changed day to day and that means I am unlikely to be a converted kira. That actually makes a lot of sense. One of the things we should be looking for is to see if someone's play changes from d1 and that's what he did in regards to me after the Kira flip. This is one thing I look for. He is re-evaluating his read on me and that's something town if far more likely to do than scum. I mean as scum, why put your biggest scumread into your biggest townread? I mean scum could do it to buddy a townie and then kill them at night if they can't lynch them or to get that townie off their back but I don't think that's what's happening here.

Also, let's think about scum motivation for lone scum. Who would they want to bring to endgame? Stealth would likely not take out his biggest scumread FB. He wouldn't leave me around because I was scumreading him and questioning him and had him as my second choice. He likely wouldn't leave Crypt or Mesk around who he was also townreading. Because Mesk would likely work with me in a final 3 scenario and he had a pretty good townread on Crypt so it would be harder to switch his read without Crypt turning on him. For all these reasons FB is a suboptimal kill for Stealth.

A whole lot of words for me to say I'm townreading Stealth now.

[SilverWolf]

Well, I still think gyrlander was pretty genuine EoD. I'm not sold on him being town mostly because of his lack of scumhunting in the thread but there was something about the way he acted EoD yesterday that looked town to me. Sometimes these gut pings are hard to explain.

Mesk is also playing consistent to her town game and if I am now townreading Stealth, crypt is the only one left.

However, I want gyrlander to post and I want to look at Crypt again and see if I can see anything in his posts that might look scum motivated or whatnot because I want to make sure today and actually get scum and end the game and not be forced into a 3 person lylo situation.

[Mesk514]

Silver chose who you are voting and I will follow

[Stealthbomber16]

Well, I still think gyrlander was pretty genuine EoD. I'm not sold on him being town mostly because of his lack of scumhunting in the thread but there was something about the way he acted EoD yesterday that looked town to me. Sometimes these gut pings are hard to explain.

Mesk is also playing consistent to her town game and if I am now townreading Stealth, crypt is the only one left.

However, I want gyrlander to post and I want to look at Crypt again and see if I can see anything in his posts that might look scum motivated or whatnot because I want to make sure today and actually get scum and end the game and not be forced into a 3 person lylo situation.

I personally would not put it past crypt to be the scum in this game. I've been fooled before. Wouldn't be surprised if I am fooled now.

Gonna sleep on the issue.

[SilverWolf]

I still think Gyrlander is the scum today

Why?

[Gyrlander]

FB for sure was a weird NK.

[Mesk514]

I'm unsure about MattZed and his read on SW and it honestly is haunting me but i'm really gonna bite the bullet here and stick to my belief that SW is a townie

Also, im all for getting crypt. hes fooled me lots of times

[Cryptonic]

Why?

Because the reasons I have stated the past 2 days, and have reiterated over and over

[SilverWolf]

FB for sure was a weird NK.

Do you have anything else to say?

[SilverWolf]

Anyhow, I think I'm probably gonna vote for Crypt. I think his shade throwing on my first post but not voting me means he's setting me up for a mislynch in lylo. He's not really paying attention to anyone else's reasons for voting people since about d2 and mostly sticking with his own which means he could have an order he wants people gone. He claims he wasn't on the SJ mislynch but claims it's a good lynch-he also wasn't here to vote it or not. He claims voting banana and staying there means he's town but went on an on to SJ about how he could easily be bussing banana when SJ pushed banana. He isn't re-evaluating gyrlander based on yesterday's EoD posting or even commenting on it.

Regarding what MZ said, I'm not a big fan of anyone using the MZ post against me because it's an easy way to scumpaint me. I'm pretty annoyed a confirmed town put that in his last post with no explanation and a pretty sure NK possibility so he can't come here to explain it. It just makes it easy for scum to push me which is the reason I voted gyrlander yesterday when he used it.

I am also concerned gyrlander doesn't comment on anything today at all but the NK. But at this point, the more I think about things, the more I second guess myself and it is just time to make a decision.

I also hope I didn't give Stealth a townread too easy but nobody and I mean NOBODY is commenting on him all game. I mean it really is hard to play this game when I have ZERO help from anyone regarding figuring things out this game. It is quite literally a shot in the dark and kind of frustrating.

[Gyrlander]

SW, I just woke up and I was only able to comment that as I had to get up, etc.

I'm pretty sure I've commented that I was mainly suspicious of Crypt. However, it is true that his posts look good and you don't really know if you're being paranoid or what, but, in my opinion, it's either him or Mesk. I know this might sound strange, but I consider Banana going crazy and converting Mesk kinda probable. Sad thing, I'm not sure about anyone at all, and I won't be surprised if anyone of you turned to be the Second Kira.

For now, I'll also choose Crypt and hope it is the right choice. We're currently 5 people, so only this mislynch and next one... I think next day will be the most critical, as there will be two people less to be suspicious of. (unless we lynch scum today)

-vote Cryptonic

[SilverWolf]

Wow, I was just about to vote Crypt when you posted that and I would of hammered. I agree, if this is a mislynch, and I'm not sure it is, tomorrow people have to really think about it depending on who's here and not just rush vote. I also agree, that it could be anyone. Getting a couple more out of the way, if this doesn't end it, will be helpful.

I'm a little paranoid of Mesk because she's a great convert choice and she's hardly been pushed by anyone this game but I'm not gonna go there today. That's for tomorrow if necessary.

Anyone care if I hammer?

[SilverWolf]

-vote Cryptonic

Let's just move on.

[The Godfather]

Cryptonic has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Cryptonic (3 [L-0]): Mesk514, Gyrlander, SilverWolf
Gyrlander (1 [L-2]): Cryptonic

[Sino]

The town has won !

Well, this game was weird, d1 wasn't really the best day you could've went for, but once it was over, this game was played slightly better, just please don't do this d1 again.

Another problem was Banana's lynch, the only "real" vote on him was MZ, all the others just sheeped without having a scumread on him.

I was however pleased with how some of you played the game, SW did a good job towards the end, while MZ quickly found out who to lynch d2.

If i had to give an award, i'd probably give it to MZ for his Banana lynch and for his patience d1

Please don't forget to keep the discussion civil.

[SilverWolf]

Anyhow, I think I'm probably gonna vote for Crypt. I think his shade throwing on my first post but not voting me means he's setting me up for a mislynch in lylo. He's not really paying attention to anyone else's reasons for voting people since about d2 and mostly sticking with his own which means he could have an order he wants people gone. He claims he wasn't on the SJ mislynch but claims it's a good lynch-he also wasn't here to vote it or not. He claims voting banana and staying there means he's town but went on an on to SJ about how he could easily be bussing banana when SJ pushed banana. He isn't re-evaluating gyrlander based on yesterday's EoD posting or even commenting on it.

One other thing I wanted to comment on here is that he said he should be given a pass for not hammering FB but never gave one to gyrlander for not hammering FB.

[Sino]

After seeing how this game played out, i'm thinking the save is a bit too town-sided, what do you guys think about removing a citizen slot ?

[SilverWolf]

Thanks for hosting Sino!!

MZ for MVP-he actually tried to figure the game out and was right on banana and dealt with pressure remarkably well.

This game frustrated me on many levels. It was partially the game and partially me.

As far as removing a Citizen, I'm not sure. I think it's hard to hunt lone scum. There aren't team mate associations to look at, they can play town, and with a town that is not really scumhunting, it is easier to get townread. If the town was super active and pushing people and getting reads, it would be different.

[Sino]

Thanks for hosting Sino!!

MZ for MVP-he actually tried to figure the game out and was right on banana and dealt with pressure remarkably well.

This game frustrated me on many levels. It was partially the game and partially me.

As far as removing a Citizen, I'm not sure. I think it's hard to hunt lone scum. There aren't team mate associations to look at, they can play town, and with a town that is not really scumhunting, it is easier to get townread. If the town was super active and pushing people and getting reads, it would be different.

Yeah, but 1v9, even without when it's hard to scumhunt, might be too many mislynches to get off, Crypt needed 3 of them, that's way too much imo.

[DarknessB]

My assessment of the game:

I refuse to vote MZ (for MVP). It's very unclear whether most of the players deserve compassion and someone to rely on as with the terrible Town in Final Fantasy.

So my current MVP order is everyone but him, in alphabetical order.

[BananaCucho]

GG

I debated killing MZ and taking the 2 KPN but in the end went for what I thought would be the more fun route - scum siding with Crypt (never had the pleasure to do that before now) and having 2 Kiras in the game.

MVP is MZ for sure for not backing down and getting the sheep to follow him. Had he not been L and was lynched day 1 the game would have shaped out very differently.

I did enjoy this game though!

[SilverWolf]

Yeah, but 1v9, even without when it's hard to scumhunt, might be too many mislynches to get off, Crypt needed 3 of them, that's way too much imo.

But if Banana was still alive with Crypt or took 2 kills

[SilverWolf]

GG

I debated killing MZ and taking the 2 KPN but in the end went for what I thought would be the more fun route - scum siding with Crypt (never had the pleasure to do that before now) and having 2 Kiras in the game.

MVP is MZ for sure for not backing down and getting the sheep to follow him. Had he not been L and was lynched day 1 the game would have shaped out very differently.

I did enjoy this game though!

I almost hammered him but decided to wait and if I would of hammered, he wouldn't of claimed, and I likely would of been turbo lynched the next day even with ika still alive in the game.

[SilverWolf]

My assessment of the game:

I refuse to vote MZ (for MVP). It's very unclear whether most of the players deserve compassion and someone to rely on as with the terrible Town in Final Fantasy.

So my current MVP order is everyone but him, in alphabetical order.

Do you always come into the end game of every game and just shit on everything?

[Sino]

But if Banana was still alive with Crypt or took 2 kills

That would still require 3 mislynches in a row for scum to win.

[Stealthbomber16]

GG

MVP is MattZed for his unity in keeping the town together to get a Banana lynch off.

This was a very awkward game for sure. I will probably stay for a few more

[DarknessB]

Do you always come into the end game of every game and just shit on everything?

You played well and I actually felt bad for you given something like 3 players max did any sort of scumhunting this game. I just can't pretend this was a well-played game by the Town despite the victory. MZ managed to rally folks against BC, you scumhunted, SB even scumhunted kind of. Crypt was put in a tough position especially given some of his d1 comments about being the logical convert.

Not sure what any of the other townies did other than AFK, troll, fake claim every role, post walls of sheep, say they wouldn't lynch people because of their avatar or stuff that happened in games a year ago when they got pity from the person on the block, or sheep any train just because they wanted to be on a train / didn't want to come up with their own scumread. I'm sorry, but I just can't pretend any of that makes for a good game.

[Stealthbomber16]

You played well and I actually felt bad for you given something like 3 players max did any sort of scumhunting this game. I just can't pretend this was a well-played game by the Town despite the victory. MZ managed to rally folks against BC, you scumhunted, SB even scumhunted kind of. Crypt was put in a tough position especially given some of his d1 comments about being the logical convert.

Not sure what any of the other townies did other than AFK, troll, fake claim every role, post walls of sheep, say they wouldn't lynch people because of their avatar or stuff that happened in games a year ago when they got pity from the person on the block. I'm sorry, but I just can't pretend any of that makes for a good game.

I scumhunted, I'm just bad and misread everyone.
I'd love to have some insight as to why crypt killed FB instead of SW.

[DarknessB]

I scumhunted, I'm just bad and misread everyone.
I'd love to have some insight as to why crypt killed FB instead of SW.

Honestly, I thought you did a good job this game and was pleasantly surprised by the somewhat more aggressive SB -- hope to see more of that in the future. No one is saying you have to be right, but basic effort is a very good thing and gets the Town doing something. Contrast that to the wall of trolling from 2/3 of the Town...

[MattZed]

GG everyone! I told you guys to lynch BC, SJ, and Crypt in that order, and you basically stuck to it.

This was a bit of a lazy game, so I hope everyone's learned something, like the virtue of scumhunting. Had I died earlier, this game would definitely have gone quite differently, but it's not like the clues that helped me pick out BC would go away.

[SilverWolf]

You played well and I actually felt bad for you given something like 3 players max did any sort of scumhunting this game. I just can't pretend this was a well-played game by the Town despite the victory. MZ managed to rally folks against BC, you scumhunted, SB even scumhunted kind of. Crypt was put in a tough position especially given some of his d1 comments about being the logical convert.

Not sure what any of the other townies did other than AFK, troll, fake claim every role, post walls of sheep, say they wouldn't lynch people because of their avatar or stuff that happened in games a year ago when they got pity from the person on the block, or sheep any train just because they wanted to be on a train / didn't want to come up with their own scumread. I'm sorry, but I just can't pretend any of that makes for a good game.

OK, I get it now. I thought you were insulting the entire town.

I agree for the most part with what you said here. I haven't been this frustrated with a game in a long time.

[SilverWolf]

That would still require 3 mislynches in a row for scum to win.

But with two votes in their power, it would be easier. I'm not the best on set-up stuff though so you may be right.

[DarknessB]

OK, I get it now. I thought you were insulting the entire town.

I agree for the most part with what you said here. I haven't been this frustrated with a game in a long time.

Ah, that was just a paraphrase of Gyrlander's reason for not wanting to vote MZ earlier in the game, which fits the narrative of this game for most of the Town -- "right for the wrong reasons". A handful of you tried and I felt bad for those people given the lack of basic Town cooperation or scumhunting from the rest. Kudos to you for making it through this game, lol.

[Sino]

But with two votes in their power, it would be easier. I'm not the best on set-up stuff though so you may be right.

2 votes, but only 1 KPN, and interactions for the town to look at, so i don't think it would be that much easier.

[ika]

GG everyone! I told you guys to lynch BC, SJ, and Crypt in that order, and you basically stuck to it.

This was a bit of a lazy game, so I hope everyone's learned something, like the virtue of scumhunting. Had I died earlier, this game would definitely have gone quite differently, but it's not like the clues that helped me pick out BC would go away.

Yes i hope someone learned to not set standards on players

[ika]

@Sino

as for removing the citizen it might work. one thing i liked at the time with the extra is that even with a myslynch day 1 and 2, scum cant outright win if it takes double kill

1v9 start
1v8 myslynch
1v7 lynch
1v5 (double kill + L guilty)
1v4 (l gets lynched in 1v1)
1v2 (double kill)

it would remove this overall and make it that the game would end there witch i dislike but thats my opinion

[Cryptonic]

Oh hey I'm dead guys lol what's up

[Cryptonic]

Sorry for lynching you Banana, too many people were saying Banana & Crypt at the start of the day that I had to place my vote there lol. The train didn't look like it was moving, so I had to keep on it T_T

[Cryptonic]

Do you always come into the end game of every game and just shit on everything?

Yes, 99% of the time he only speaks negatively, quite a downer.

I mean, I had fun this game, I don't really care how anyone played because this was enjoyable.

[Cryptonic]

I scumhunted, I'm just bad and misread everyone.
I'd love to have some insight as to why crypt killed FB instead of SW.

Prior to going into night, I had planned on killing off SW. But I seeing that I needed to get another 2 misslynches, I felt like I needed to make illogical choices for my slot so that people wouldn't be able to solve the action using logic. Just to give me more of a chance.

For that reason, I had planned to kill either Mesk or Firebringer, solely because they were saying that had a Town read on me. I was leaning Mesk, because of risk of fast hammer, ect. But I decided to go with Firebringer because I explicitly stated the day before that I liked him being in the game. Also, why would I NK the person who I refused to hammer? Was hoping this would keep some distance between me and the kill.

If a Gyrlander lynch got off, I had planned to kill Mesk and leave SW alive even then.


The logic that SW used on me for being Kira (actively scumhunting & still alive), also applied to her. I didn't point that out, because I was hoping to survive and use it against her tomorrow. ie, she states that I'm scum because I'm still alive, but she has been more of a threat to Kira than I have this game. So why is she alive too?

(edit: I also tried to plant a seed on the last day that I would be a very easy lynch on the last day, so that I could try to make you second guess SW's logic.)

I mean, it was a really low chance, but it was the only chance I saw.

[MattZed]

@Sino

as for removing the citizen it might work. one thing i liked at the time with the extra is that even with a myslynch day 1 and 2, scum cant outright win if it takes double kill

1v9 start
1v8 myslynch
1v7 lynch
1v5 (double kill + L guilty)
1v4 (l gets lynched in 1v1)
1v2 (double kill)

it would remove this overall and make it that the game would end there witch i dislike but thats my opinion

You forgot the N1 kill it seems. Should actually wake up D3 in 1v4 MYLO.

I would agree with removing a cit tho. Town can afford 3 mislynches, (although we only used 2 of them here) and dropping a cit turns that into 2 mislynches with a possible no-lynch, which makes a bit more sense for a game of this size.

[Cryptonic]

I think an issue with the setup is that it was expected to rely on the mechanic of Kira fake claiming as L (seeing that Kira can investigate). In reality, this wasn't really a power that benefitted Kira at all. I mean, It could be used to find L, but L would be outted/out himself/be killed very early in a setup this small in size.



I also think that a Citizen can be removed. IMO, the maximum number of mislynches Town should get should be equal to the number of correct lynches Town needs to win. That's just my personal opinion, but I think It helps balance.

Either way, I didn't feel that this game was impossible for scum to win. If we got luckier with a ML on D2, the game would have been completely different.

Also, it's hard for me to explain why I'm alive in a game where no Doctor is possible So I think that lends to why we lost lol

[DarknessB]

Yes, 99% of the time he only speaks negatively, quite a downer.

I mean, I had fun this game, I don't really care how anyone played because this was enjoyable.

Nothing ever changes if issues aren't raised and in fact, things get worse. It's really not a big ask for people to try scumhunting and post reads / rationalizations for votes as opposed to massively trolling the thread or lurking away the days. I know you were converted scum, but you even made these points during the game. You can call it negative if you want, but you're just condoning / enabling the behavior if it's not flagged.

In addition to my critique of 2/3 of the Town, I also mentioned a number of things I liked about this game -- e.g. SW's scumhunting / logic, SB's reemergence / being more aggressive with pushes, your trying to make the best of a rough setup for scum after BC was lynched, MZ's rallying from L-1 to push a lynch on BC, etc. However, I think we're all doing ourselves a disservice if we just pretend there weren't serious problems with the overall effort level in this game.

[Stealthbomber16]

I think an issue with the setup is that it was expected to rely on the mechanic of Kira fake claiming as L (seeing that Kira can investigate). In reality, this wasn't really a power that benefitted Kira at all. I mean, It could be used to find L, but L would be outted/out himself/be killed very early in a setup this small in size.



I also think that a Citizen can be removed. IMO, the maximum number of mislynches Town should get should be equal to the number of correct lynches Town needs to win. That's just my personal opinion, but I think It helps balance.

Either way, I didn't feel that this game was impossible for scum to win. If we got luckier with a ML on D2, the game would have been completely different.

Also, it's hard for me to explain why I'm alive in a game where no Doctor is possible So I think that lends to why we lost lol

It's hard to explain why you're alive so long in a game WITH a doctor

[Stealthbomber16]

Overall I'm pretty disappointed to see FB is even more of a lurker now than when I left

[ika]

You forgot the N1 kill it seems. Should actually wake up D3 in 1v4 MYLO.

I would agree with removing a cit tho. Town can afford 3 mislynches, (although we only used 2 of them here) and dropping a cit turns that into 2 mislynches with a possible no-lynch, which makes a bit more sense for a game of this size.

your forget that in trading off your immunity for the double kill, you have to forgo the nk that night

[ika]

Nothing ever changes if issues aren't raised and in fact, things get worse. It's really not a big ask for people to try scumhunting and post reads / rationalizations for votes as opposed to massively trolling the thread or lurking away the days. I know you were converted scum, but you even made these points during the game. You can call it negative if you want, but you're just condoning / enabling the behavior if it's not flagged.

In addition to my critique of 2/3 of the Town, I also mentioned a number of things I liked about this game -- e.g. SW's scumhunting / logic, SB's reemergence / being more aggressive with pushes, your trying to make the best of a rough setup for scum after BC was lynched, MZ's rallying from L-1 to push a lynch on BC, etc. However, I think we're all doing ourselves a disservice if we just pretend there weren't serious problems with the overall effort level in this game.

I think more of the issue is though that your not activly playing these games either so if anything some people might take what you say for a gain of salt. Yes they can be issues but by not playing and jsut voicing it, you are argubly not fixing it much either

[ika]

the game should have pluarality lynch enforced instead of removing a cit IMO. it seems unfairfor a lone scum to win off the basis that lynches didnt go off

[DarknessB]

I think more of the issue is though that your not activly playing these games either so if anything some people might take what you say for a gain of salt. Yes they can be issues but by not playing and jsut voicing it, you are argubly not fixing it much either

It's a chicken-egg problem though -- one of the main reasons I'm not actively playing games these days is because the quality of play has diminished so much over the past couple of years. I'm not even talking about doing a good job in the game, but even just minimal effort would be nice -- e.g. giving basic reads on players, giving rationalizations for votes, not turbo lynching unless there's a good reason, cutting back on excessive trolling / spamming, trying to post something about the game every so often, etc. This isn't high-level FM play -- it's more like basic decency to everyone else who signed, lol.

To be very honest, games like this don't encourage me to get back into things and I feel like many of the more active players who have moved on feel the same way. Yes, I realize that doesn't solve the problem, but unfortunately, it's where we are right now.